I'm convinced that the only reason Ben apologized to Charlie is bc he wanted his old life back - you know, the life where Charlie was his dirty little secret, nothing more.
@@inzanity490 I mean harry was smiling and acting so nonchalant about his apology and only apologized after he realized he wasn't welcomed in so they are both terrible apologies
He didn’t even acknowledge that he made Charlie really hate himself. The difference with Charlie is that as cheesy as it sounds it’s like the sun is shining every time he sees him.
I’ve been in Charlie’s place and I didn’t feel painful because I thought I deserved nothing better. So he probably didn’t feel the pain until he met Nick and realized he did deserve better
Such an important scene. Even today, it’s so rare to see a character not automatically (or indeed ever) forgiving someone be presented as a justified and fair reaction (seriously, the only other example I can think of is Herb and Bojack). Do I believe that Ben is an inherently bad person who’s fundamentally incapable of changing? No I don’t. Despite all the terrible things he’s done, (gaslighting, verbally abusing and even sexually assaulting Charlie), I think it all comes from a place of extreme self hatred and internalised homophobia. But that doesn’t make anything he’s done okay or forgivable to Charlie or indeed anyone else who can’t forgive him. I hope this is truly the last time we see Ben. I honestly believe he has the potential to grow and mature out of his toxic habits, look back and question how he could have ever been as cruel as he was. But showing it would cheapen the insane integrity that this show has built across its two incredible seasons so far.
I think this also shows how sometimes when you did hurt someone the best you can do is really just leave them alone, they don't need you to say "i'm sorry" to get over it
Looking back at Charlie's character development in season 2, he became such a strong & brave character because he wants to protect what he has with Nick. He put aside all his fears and supported Nick in every step of the way, even confronting the people who made him suffered. So when Nick finally told him that he doesn't have to be perfect for him, it got us all emotional because learning from on his past trauma, Charlie always felt like he has to be perfect for someone he loves and ignores all his pain.
I know it’s not shown in this video but one of the most important scenes in this whole show at least for me is after Charlie confronts Ben he stands outside the art gallery that is show casing LGBTQIA+ works and artists. They illustrate the rainbow coming out of the building and the colors are just barely not touching Ben and the colors are illustrated like water. Then it pans down to his feet and Ben takes a moment and then walks away. The scene is giving him that moment to think about walking into that building so he can forget about all of the preconceived notions he has on sexualities and to go into that building to finally connect with people that have been exactly where he is now and maybe look at some art that perfectly reflects what he goes through everyday with liking men but he finally makes that choice to not take that leap and to not at least for a moment free himself from that burden.
@@flo_wer2920 Definitely. After that scene I had to just take a moment and reflect on it. I haven’t seen anyone talk about that scene yet and I’m surprised because of everything that one moment reflects in just a short amount of time.
I had a Ben in my life. And I'm telling you, he should NEVER come back. I really hope Ben's character will have genuine redemption. But Charlie doesn't need to see that. I think we have to put our feet in Charlie's shoes and ask ourselves, "How will I feel if I always see my assaulter?"
Yes!! We have seen so many shows where queer characters are expected to act like saints and personally redeem people who’ve abused or bullied them. I’m so glad Heartstopper didn’t do that. Charlie doesn’t owe Ben a thing, and he’s spent *so* long putting Ben’s, and everyone else’s, needs before his own. Charlie still has so much healing to do, and he doesn’t need Ben around to make that any harder than it already will be.
Our Charlie Spring has finally grown up and told Ben off that he's done with him. It shows that the "love" Charlie had with Ben was fake he was being used while the love he and Nick have is real.
What I found really interesting is how they swapped the Harry confrontation in the books, to Ben's in the show. It makes perfect sense because in the books, we see Harry as more of the enemy to Charlie, whereas in the show, the main enemy is Ben. I still think Harry should have got more than just a "no" from Charlie at the party.
@adsheff Harry apologized because he wanted to be let into the party, and because he realized people weren't on board with his homophobia. It wasn't a genuine apology, he was just trying to keep his popularity intact
@adsheff maybe not doing it in front of a room full of people, as a prerequisite to get into a party (thus trying to ambush them into accepting the apology) for a start?
@@adsheffin the final episode we hear Harry mocking Nick and Charlie at the prom after they slam the door in his face, so I think it’s fair to assume that he didn’t mean a word of what he said
I would have been able to feel bad for Ben, if he didn’t assault Charlie in season 1, and didn’t spend the entirety of season 2 Taunting Nick to make him feel insecure. Plus the whole part about Ben being unable to acknowledge just how f’d up what he did to Charlie was. He apologized but clearly doesn’t get how serious what he did was, so much that he expected Charlie to just forgive him right there and then. His entire apology was also just about him, and how he felt.
@@Laura-vs8bbyes it’s really interesting how deluded he was. Because this is true, people can get so delusional they just have no concept of other people’s feelings
Ben’s a narcissist. He doesn’t realize the damage he does. All he cares about is himself and doesn’t care about what he does or who he hurts to get what he wants.
I love the fact we still got this scene! I was worried when he didn't say this to Harry at Tara's party like in the books. This was such a better way to play it!❤
@@WxB2001agree. At least on the show it’s a lot more meaningful between Charlie/Ben than it would have been between Charlie/Harry. But Ben has a much bigger role in the show than he did in the comics.
I can relate to Charlie. As much as I want to forgive this person, I can’t. I am generally a very forgiving person, but this person crossed the line. I tried to force myself to forgive, but at the end of the day, I genuinely can’t. The depression that he caused me, it sucks. Every day, I’m trying to build myself up again. I am so glad that Charlie stood his ground. This scene is so empowering for me. Forgiveness is voluntarily given. It cannot be forced.
I love that this reinforces that you don't have to forgive someone. I do wish Ben would have walked onto that rainbow becking him, maybe he walks away at first then goes back- because I think that would have be a first step to him actually working to be a better person
But why is that a good thing? Forgiveness, after an admission of guilt and apology, is vital if the world is to move forward together. What would it take for Charlie to forgive someone?
@@mike-m123 forgiveness isn't for the other person. It's for yourself; and yes, it takes time. It doesn't mean you should forget what happened to you. It just means that traumatic experience no longer has any power over you
To be fair,Ben kinda deserved to hear all of that since he did treat Charlie very badly like a human pet. Ben took a lot from Charlie,so it’s about time that Charlie took back his power and told him off after everything that Ben did to him. I get that Ben might come from a messed up household with parents that wouldn’t accept him for who he truly is but it’s no excuse how he treated Charlie & Imogen. Ben might of been going through personal issues at the time when he was with Charlie but he still traumatized Charlie for life,he’s the whole reason why Charlie’s has low self esteem not just with Charlie’s other bullies. But Ben was not only a bully but a abuser to Charlie of physical & mental abuse. Ben was lucky enough that Nick & Charlie didn’t report him of his attempted assault when he forced himself on Charlie that day or worse Charlie’s sister Tori got involved with Ben and that could end badly with Ben once Tori is done with him since Tori would do anything at any extent to protect her brother and she can be very intense whenever she needs to be when it comes to helping her brother out.
Everything about this scene was amazing! It’s honestly rare where you get a show with an LGBT protagonist where they don’t go back to their toxic love interest, so this was very refreshing! It was so satisfying seeing Charlie not take Ben back and tell him the hurt, pain, and insecurity he has caused him. It shows Charlie’s growth a lot for someone so young! Nick, from the moment he met Charlie, has been so sweet, caring, and loving to him and gave him real love and built him up which is the complete opposite of what Ben did. That alone can give one an uptick of self-worth and esteem and that is a testament of what real love can do. I never read the comic, but everything about the show is so good! The characters and the storyline is just so wholesome and sweet! I’m hyped for season 3!
This is a perfect example of somebody apologizing for their own ego and self worth. I think deep down Ben regrets what happened with Charlie but clearly doesn’t realize the full extent of the hurt he caused him. Only once he sees Nick and Charlie happy together does he realize that he actually still has feelings for Charlie and sees Nick as taking him away from him.
This actually made me cry, because I can relate to them both in different ways. I relate to Charlie by being in a toxic relationship where the other one pretends to not know me and treats me like air sometimes. I relate to Ben by having done something bad (obviously not as bad as what he did) and dealing with the consequences by losing friends.
TBH, I'm going to miss Ben, at the end of the day, he's part of the show... and it's going to be weird not seeing Bash along with the rest of the cast from now on. The part where that kind of "little wave" with the colors of diversity almost touches Ben's feet, but he finally walks away, it breaks my heart 😭💔 I feel like it's a metaphor for how close he is to know the love, but that with his attitudes he ends up driving him away.
I thought it meant he was going to live the rest of his life in the closet. As in he would end up marrying a woman and having kids like his parents would have wanted.
@@karinajohnson4443well I believe Ben is bisexual just like Nick. So it wouldn’t really effect him in the long run, unless he finds a guy he’s attracted to, like Charlie. Being bisexual in secret will obviously eat at Ben because he will possibly never be comfortable coming out as long as he’s parents are in his life.
About Ben not entering the rainbow. You know I am not surprised that he doesn't want to join the queer club yet. Because - what could he do? He will see those queer paintings and do what then? His family wouldn't accept him, his friends wouldn't accept him, he can't join Charlie's group, he has noone to share his queerness with. Now I think all he can do is to find new people who are not homophobic and I think it can happen. He is leaving Truham now so now he can think twice before he found another homophobic friends. I think the change in him actually already started but it needs a long time for him to leave the room of internalised homophobia and change at all. But by the way I was just thinking about it yesterday. How dangerous internalized homophobia is, especially for a kid. Because if you raise your queer child in homophobic beliefs, if you make their self esteem dependent of their sexuality, if you make them looking for approval between homophobic people, make them hate queers and escape from the every piece of rainbow into "real boys" club, you 1) make them the loneliest people in the world with no one to trust and no one rely on 2) you put them between people who can he be potentially dangerous for them, who can willing to hurt them. It is like living with the lions. You can feel strong because lions are lions are strong and dangerous but they can eat you at any moment. An example - what if Charlie or Nick have fallen in love with a new male teacher and then got abused by them, what could they do? It could be horrible but they could always go to tell their parents, their friends, they trusted teachers. They couldn't be blackmailed because they are already out and they couldn't be easly manipulated because they have supportive people besides their back. But what if that happened to Ben? What would he do? I honestly have no idea. His parents probably don't even know that programming him toxic, homophobic beliefs and raising him for a "real man" they actually put their son in the lion's jaws. It needs years od working on yourself to earse rhat shame and guilt and fears. You have to build your entire self esteem on something different than being a steight strong man, you have to completly change your group of friends, you have to get ready for your parents' rejection, you have to rethink your entire set if beliefs. It is a lots of work before joining the qieer folks. But I believe the change alreadh started in Ben. He slowly realises rhat he did wrong and he slowly realizes that the world can be happier if you are not a prisoner if hour own beliefs.
I am fully aware that Ben treated Charlie (and Nick, too, but especially Charlie) really bad, just like Charlie said in this scene and other people in the comments. And I totally understand that Charlie doesn't forgive him. But at the same time I can't help it that I'm really sad that he won't be there in season 3... what maybe relates to the fact that I really like Sebastian Croft as an actor. And I totally understand when people do not like Ben because of the things he did to Charlie and I fully understand that Bash and Alice decided that there is no redemption arc for Ben. Like it makes sense because if he's able to change it's not the topic Heartstopper will be dealing with because it is not his story which is being told and I read that he isn't even in the second book (shame on me, that I didn't read the comics). But nonetheless I feel very bad for him. Like some others said, he must feel very left alone now, there is nobody knowing about his feelings and nobody supporting him. But like Charlie said I'm hoping that he will become a better person and that he finds the right environment where he can be and accept who he really is... sadly we won't see that in season 3. (But what about a spin-off? Haha) And I also wish Bash all the good for the future, I'm very sad that he is leaving because he seems to be a very nice person and he is a very good actor... who played that role the best it could have been, I think. But I'm also sure there are more things to come from him/with him and I'm looking forward to it... and to season 3 of Heartstopper of course. 🍂🍃❤️ PS: Please excuse any failures, english is not my first language.
What did Ben mean when he said if he had more time? More time to what? Keep treating Charlie like a human pet or actual treated him better? Before Charlie started dating Nick
I have very mixed feelings about this... Joe and Bash nail this but it's incredibly sad. You've got the Charlie character carrying a lot of vicious damage... and it was vicious, with the Ben character craving salvation and forgiveness to wipe away his toxicity... Ben ends up being a tragic character, sadly I know too many people who, many years ago, suffered from the stigma and shame from family and are still feeling that pain. As Bash walked away I just had a glimpse of a unhappy and loveless future for Ben's character... brilliantly played and lifted the show out of the sugary sweetnes and light that it sometimes get criticised for.
Can we talk about how Ben was much more on Charlie than he was with IMOGEN both seasons? I mean,he was so quick to drop Imogen meanwhile tried everything he could in his head to "win back" Charlie by "apologizing".
This whole scene made me wished that if s3 owl house were longer, we can see Amity properly confronts Boscha after Belos was defeated, instead of the ones we got in FTF. Amity expresses how she finally have someone (Luz) to not just see and understand her as what she is, but also encourages what she actually wants. And regarding the weird ship thing, maybe Amity could say that if Boscha really likes her, she could've made the move all way back, but she didn't or couldn't. And despite Boscha explaining that her moms won't support her decision, Amity could tell her that Boscha have a choice to either forever "enslaved" by her parents or stand up to herself like Amity did to Odalia.
Such a big moment for charlie the entire show i felt like he was being "saved" by Nick and isnt his own person this is the first time he doesnt need anyone to save him and stand up for his abuser without forgiving him great acting too
I'm not defending Ben but it's pretty obvious he's struggling with his sexuality. When people lash out like that, usually means they're dealing with something internal. Let's not forget he's just a kid. Who knows what his family/parents are like at home, I wouldn't be surprised if they are toxic. His story arc is actually interesting. Heartstopper is such a great show, but not everything is perfect - case in point, Ben's storyline. Again, I'm not defending him, I'm basically saying he's a kid who really needs help. He probably has no one to talk to about his sexuality, who knows what other issues he may have.
the show acknowledges the fact he’s struggling and has a hard life, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for him to abuse and assault people with no repercussions. his storyline is done very well and i’d say it actually contributes to why heartstopper is so great. in real life there are people like ben who just refuse to even try changing or bettering themselves and they have to live with the consequences.
@@fluffyfurbie It's not okay to abuse/assault people. I'm just saying, he needs help - I don't think just casting him away is the answer. If they do that, it's more likely he will just hurt someone else. He needs to learn what he is doing is incorrect. He needs therapy.
He does have people though. He's literally best friends with Imogen before he goes and ruins that for himself too. He had Charlie to talk to, but liked the idea of just getting on with him without people knowing. YOU have to reach out to people, people don't just come when you need them. Charlie had to reach out to find support. Nick had to reach out to find support. Imogen did. Darcy did. Tara did. Elle did. You can't just expect it to come to you when you treat other people like crap.
Why are some people in the comments acting like Charlie owed Ben an apology? Guys, Ben was verbally, mentally and sexually abusive to him, how was he supposed to react? And besides, Ben’s “apology” wasn’t even an apology. He just tried to make excuses for his behaviour without actually acknowledging its seriousness and just expecting Charlie to be ok with that because “come on, Charlie’s a good person, he’s going to forgive me no matter what I say”. Oh and him being in the closet is zero justification for treating someone this badly. If you have some issues to sort out, you can do it without hurting others just because you want to feel better about yourself. So no, Ben apologising has nothing to do with being genuinely sorry, but mostly just so he can look at himself in the mirror and not feel like a complete piece of crap (which he is). Charlie doesn’t need to forgive Ben, and Ben doesn’t need Charlie’s forgiveness. What they both need is to be completely apart from one another in order to heal properly and come to terms with the past. In this sense, the best decision Ben made is leaving Truham. Continuing to impose his presence to both Nick and Charlie would only lead to more pain, and that’s not what they need in this moment. Ben can decide to start over in a new school where he can explore his sexuality in an healthy way, and Charlie can recover from his mental health and self hatred. That’s the best for everyone.
Ben is definitely no one favorite but his storyline line is the most interesting and mysterious. I think it would be powerful if we saw more of his backstory to why he is like this in further seasons, it would show there so much more progress that need to be made. The bueaty and sadness in this show is that some of us can see ourselves in the character, some people can see themselves in ben. Cause in reality sadly there are people like ben in our community. The acting deserves an Oscar in this scene.
Ben is worse as the story goes on in the comics. He is not a good guy and doesn't try to be. You have to try if you want to make a change, Ben doesn't try.
It's true that Ben's apology seems sincere, but it's not fair say that Charlie's refusal to forgive him was harsh. Some people keep forgetting what Charlie went through that led to his trauma & mental health issues. First he was viciously bullied to the degree that he hated himself, which only led to much darker and upsetting story. Then, he felt like he lose control over everything, including with Ben. I can't imagine how awful all of those experiences were that Charlie felt the need to control his eating, even during the Paris trip. It's even more heartbreaking because as much as you try to understand him, you just can't figure it out. So it's easy to apologise, but it's not easy to forgive & forget. So yeah, we may feel a little sorry for Ben but he had no right to ambush Charlie into forgiving him like that.
Ben's apology really doesn't seem that sincere, because he doesn't apologize for anything that caused Charlie pain. Charlie's pain comes from the abuse he suffered from Ben, the mistreatment, the insults, being treated like a toy. It had NOTHING to do with Ben not wanting to come out, and that is basically all Ben tries to 'apologize' (give excuses) for.
I know Ben doesn't continue in the book but I would love to have seen his ark and personal life at home and his coming to terms about how he treats people and his sexuality, flesh him out more nothing is ever just black and white something made him like this.😔
Unfortunately the writers seems to have adopted an "You're either with us, or against us" attitude, which reflects badly on them. The world isn't black and white, it's shades of grey. Everyone has their own inner demons they are fighting, and everyone makes mistakes. The message this scene sends is that if you make a mistake, even once, that's it, you are damaged goods and should be shunned for the rest of your life.
He does continue in the book, he plays a role in Solitaire, which is around Volume 4 of Heartstopper. He is terrible in it (he assaults Charlie and says some very terrible things about Tori and about Charlie's eating disorder) He gets a kinda terrible fate afterwards though....
@@ipurpleu1668Yeah, no. It's the same issue I have with The Sound And The Fury, with Jason Compson. Just a one dimensional sociopath with nothing more. It's black and white and annoying.
@@FreeTrial-vd2nh if people are going tru stuff they need to get the right help not abuse or control or manipulate thier spouse i was kinda like ben but i went tru therapy now im better .mayne if ven get help he will be a better perosn people need to stop saying they are going through stuff everybody go through things but that's just an excuse to try to control your loved ones which is toxic and not right that's all im gonna say hope this help of it didn't then oh well cause im not going back and fourth
Charlie is going to some stuff and it’s going to get so bad in next season, Darcy is going through some stuff too, but that did not make them hurt someone.
@@amnanasir473Thank you! There is no excuse for assaulting some and being manipulating jerk. I agree he needs help, but these kids got enough on their plate. Ben can go seek help elsewhere. I don't need him on my screen. I love Bash, but I'm happy to see Ben go.
@@FreeTrial-vd2nh All the characters go through stuff, and honestly Ben is one of them going through the least. Charlie has SERIOUS mental health problems and you don't see him treating others terribly. Ben has no excuse for the things he has done that are abusive.
I honestly feel bad for ben. He bad terrible things but he was alone. Charlie atleast had his friends and eventually nick but ben was always alone with who he really was. I hope he does come back
This reminded me of Glee's Karofsky. Ben deserved everything Charlie said. He seemed genuinely shocked that an "I'm sorry" didn't work. I'm worried he will now isolate himself more or self-harm or try to commit suicide. We won't know now that he's leaving. I really wanted him to step into the rainbow. I guess the show is saying you can't help everyone, especially when that person spats back at you.
This broke me when I saw it. Having been through a similar experience years ago I felt like Charlie was speaking my truth, saying everything I wish I had had the guts to say at the time. Sometimes these people don't deserve forgiveness when they never showed you a hint of compassion or empathy. It's hard but eventually you do find a way forward. You don't forgive, but you learn to put yourself first and heal
It's actually sad how much I relate to this. Sounds fakes but similar situation happened without any romance. Friend assaulted me, and then tried to act like this. I wish I had said something to this effect but I just left. It makes me feel so complete to see what I could've done
I think this is Ben’s first step to getting better. His apology was… not great but not the worst either. I wouldn’t expect a 16 year old to know how to apologize especially one who has nobody to talk to. He’s starting to recognize how he messed up and the problems he has. I do think he will be a better person one day.
The only thing Ben recognizes is his internalized homophobia. But that wasn't the only problem at all. He was manipulative, obsessive, and abusive. Those were the things that hurt Charlie, not being scared of coming out.
I'm so glad that Charlie didn't forgive him here, there's often so much pressure to forgive people. But I don't think you are under any obligation to forgive people who hurt you, especially as much as ben hurt charlie, you can move on and heal without letting someone off the hook who doesn't deserve it.
i screen record them on my macbook after i changed something on chrome settings (i actually don’t remember what i did but i'm pretty sure you can google it)
We feel bad for Ben because we love Bash. As for the character himself, he's done nothing but make everyone miserable. He was narcissistic, abusive, and really needed a reality check.
never seen this show but seen clips of it but and what i seen the ben boy did the other boy bad real bad and i could said some time people do you so wrong that you can never forgive them and they shouldnt have your forgiveness
It makes we wonder would i forgive the guy who had issues with me In my school days And also for a fleeting moment do all people like this ever grow by trying to becoming better
This an amazing scene with phenomenal acting from everyone expecially Joe but... WHY DID BEN WALK AWAY LIKE THAT, MOVE YOUR ARMS anyone else notice it??
I truly understand and get that someone accepting and treating you like an actual human being shouldn’t be celebrated when it’s suppose to be expected like a common moral Curtesy, but honestly I feel like As far as this confrontation goes they dragged it a little to much and was pretty harsh on Ben to a degree, Charlie talked about Ben controlling him and that’s not exactly true did Ben create an environment where charlie was belittled in the relationship and mistreated? Yes but Charlie always had the option to walk away and break up with Ben and that’s what he did someone in a relationship who is afraid or scared wouldn’t have had the ability to do that. Heart-stopper paints a very happy and bubbly coming out story for the most part between two Caucasian males who for the most part had a pretty positive experience and stable home life but that’s not everyone’s story, again I’m not excusing anything Ben did but I think some understanding and compassion on his side would also be nice he clearly was eaten up about it and really did seem to like Charlie it’s just that being out for him wasn’t an option so he sabotaged or had a self defense mechanism to protect him self from that part of himself that he couldn’t accept. Confronting Charlie and admitting his wrongs probably took alot for Ben to do and the fact that he walked away from the rainbow to me only shows how he took back the steps he worked so hard to take forward which is sad to me.
Charlie’s coming out wasn't positive. Sure, his parents accepted him, and he had the support of his friends, but he was still bullied at school and used by Ben. He was in a verbally abusive and manipulative relationship. It's not easy to walk away from an abusive relationship, especially if that's what you believe you deserve, and Charlie is just 15. He’s still young and naive. Just because Charlie’s coming out could have been worse, or his parents could not have accepted him, doesn't me it was positive. That kid is emotionally and mentally scared from what he went through and still suffering from the after-effects. But if you want to compare, Darcy’s mother wouldn't accept who she truly is, but Darcy doesn't abuse those around her. She doesn't have it easy at home but doesn't take it out on anyone else. Ben doesn't deserve Charlie’s forgiveness because he doesn't believe his parents will accept him. Charlie never wished him ill. He only didn't want him in his life anymore. I felt bad that Ben didn't take a step towards happiness and healing and following the rainbow, but what Charlie said was right.
@@Jgrace275 I think you guys really underestimate the power of family and friends support during a persons coming out journey. Charlie has accepting parents, an older sister looking out for his welling being and his friends who was always there for him and always tried to protect him, and although getting bullied in school is awful realistically it’s not that bad considering the alternative especially when he has such a solid foundation of people in his corner and in his life supporting him that’s more then what many people can say they have had coming out, there’s people whose family abandons them, leaves them homeless/kicks them out force them into conversion therapy Darcy is an example of a true bad coming out story but that’s only just a blimp of reality of what people can and have gone through so yes if where being transparent and aren’t just being fans of the show and character Charlie had a pretty positive experience with his coming out story, I say that to say this , that is why I’m able to sympathize with Ben with the struggles of him coming out what he did to Charlie is Unexcusable but I feel like had the circumstances of his life had been different he could have Been a good boyfriend to Charlie, we have not yet experienced such a detrimental coming out story on the show yet so I feel like yes Charlie is allowed to feel how he wants but he also needs to be empathetic to the fact that Ben is just like him but with out the support system he’s literally battling this thing on his own he has no real friends to talk to about it, no family supporting or looking out for him hes completely alone and he’s the same age as Charlie so how else is he suppose to feel or conduct him self when he doesn’t have the right tools or people to guide or look up to. I just really wanted Ben to have a redemption arc because I feel like there’s more that can be discovered, learned and explored there I don’t want to minimize Charlie’s pain but rather high light Bens as well.
@@narutotrickzxtv3DI’m not underestimating friendships. I think you're underestimating Charlie’s experience. Yes, he could've lost his family and friends and been homeless or had to go to conversion therapy, but he kept a lot to himself and resorted to self-harm and an eating disorder to deal with his pain. He has friends, but what good is that if you don't let them in? In the first season, he told his teacher that his friends wouldn't understand some of his problems because they were not gay. In the second season, Tao said he never talked to him about the bullying with them. His family doesn't know about his eating disorder, so how is he decompressing? I work with Lgbtq+ teens I know the terrible things that can happen. I've heard and seen a lot of pain, but I also see teens who project happiness around their friends quietly struggle with mistreatment at school and attempt to take their own life. So it's not me being just a fan of the show. I objectively believe that you can have a positive coming-out experience, but I don't think Charlie had one. Did he have the worse one imaginable, no? But I don't believe in minimizing one person’s pain for a what-if storyline. I've also seen teens like Ben with so much internalized hatred that they hurt people. Not everyone has that redeeming moment, and that's realistic too. I can feel bad for Ben while agreeing with how Charlie handled it. He has enough on his plate. He doesn't need to help Ben fix himself. And you can't help anyone unwilling to take that step. Bash is a fantastic actor, and I look forward to his future projects, but I'm okay with not seeing Ben anymore. In the end, I think we just have different interpretations of that scene. I think it was a healthy step for Charlie and proved to me that Ben still wasn't ready to take that risk. Like I said before I felt bad that he couldn't do it, but sometimes thats reality.
Ben VERY much controlled Charlie. He took advantage of him when he was vulnerable. 'Controlling' someone has nothing to do with the physical ability to walk away. And guess what? Charlie does walk away! He tells Ben he doesn't want to see him anymore, and guess what Ben does? Sexually assaults him. He is controlling and obsessive and manipulative.
I know Ben deserved everything Charlie said to him. But I felt so bad for both of them in that moment. I hope they both find peace and happiness and I’m glad that confrontation happened for both their sakes.
@@fiogio1830 I’ve been both. Forgiveness is liberating. It frees you from carrying around hate in your heart which poison your soul and makes you bitter and small. In Charlie, it manifests itself in his eating disorder. I guarantee somewhere in Ben’s past he was also bullied, most likely by his family, like Nick. This has turned him into a bully unable to accept himself and unable to express or find love. I wish he finds the courage to forgive himself, and be free. I’ve had experience on both ends of the spectrum. Therapy and willingness to do the hard work help me heal 💜
I really hate how they butcher this scene, it was supposed to be harry not ben, the entire purpose of the orginal scene was about how just bc someone decides to stop being awful bigot doesnt mean you should forgive them, instead this is another generic abusive partner is told to f off, which its not bad on its own but i dont like they ruined the harry scene
I thought that at first but rewatch all the past Ben scenes, he’s a dick to Imogen, Ben and Nick in all of them. And in this apology he is actually smiling. He was sorry but only to make himself feel better.
Nothing about this was heartwarming. It was just excuses and addressing nothing that he actually did that was wrong. Charlie had NO problem with Ben not wanting to come out, he even TELLS him that. But that is all Ben tries to 'apologize' (or make excuses for). What makes Ben a terrible person is the abuse. He is manipulative (goes after Charlie when he knew the amount of bullying and abuse he was facing), controlling (the amount of times he texts Charlie and demands he write back, pushes Charlie's boundaries multiple times, deciding when they would meet up and not caring about what Charlie thinks about it) , treats Charlie like a toy to do whatever he wants with (only cared about hooking up with him, not even wanting to see him outside hooking up, in the novel he even finds it 'hot' when Charlie is crying), speaks about Charlie like he is a toy ("get him back"), sexually abusive, and just mean (insults Charlie so many times when he apparently 'likes' him). Charlie had no obligation to be kind to him.
I think this scene was really disappointing. He gave a heartfelt apology, and is clearly conflicted and troubled - and Charlie just tell's him to f* off. It's really out of character, and seems to give the message that even if people are contrite and realise they've done wrong, there is absolutely no forgiveness in the world of Heartstopper. This is a very social media / Twitter way of behaving.
Ben spend the entire season been a menace and spreading harm to others and charlie knew it , you dont get a tap in the head after all of it with one apology , ben needs to star over somewhere else an choose to fight for himself or keep harming himself to please his parents and that its super hard to do
I've just commented on my mixed feelings about this. Goes to show that some damage can't be fixed with an apology or even a heartfelt confession... the old saying " to err is human, to forgive Devine" not everyone is blessed with divinity...😕 bloody good acting though!
I'm sorry but he literally sexualy assaulted him and was emotionally abusive, he has all the right in the word to no accept the apologies because an I'm sorry it's not going to fix all the mental health problems it caused
It's great that Ben apologized properly but I think the lesson here is that you are not owed forgiveness when you hurt someone and that you do not have to forgive your abusers. It's not a social media/twitter way of behaving. I wouldn't forgive somebody who sexually assaulted me and emotionally abused me either.
Nothing about Ben's apology was heartfelt. It was just excuses and addressing nothing that he actually did that was wrong. Charlie had NO problem with Ben not wanting to come out, he even TELLS him that. But that is all Ben tries to 'apologize' (or make excuses for). What makes Ben a terrible person is the abuse. He is manipulative (goes after Charlie when he knew the amount of bullying and abuse he was facing), controlling (the amount of times he texts Charlie and demands he write back, pushes Charlie's boundaries multiple times, deciding when they would meet up and not caring about what Charlie thinks about it) , treats Charlie like a toy to do whatever he wants with (only cared about hooking up with him, not even wanting to see him outside hooking up, in the novel he even finds it 'hot' when Charlie is crying), speaks about Charlie like he is a toy ("get him back"), sexually abusive, and just mean (insults Charlie so many times when he apparently 'likes' him). Charlie had no obligation to be kind to him.
I'm convinced that the only reason Ben apologized to Charlie is bc he wanted his old life back - you know, the life where Charlie was his dirty little secret, nothing more.
You got it right ,Ben horrible 😢💀
I agreed 😢
The guy who said the f slur last season had a much more genuine apology. Harry was still annoying but he didn't act like a dlck this time
@@inzanity490 I mean harry was smiling and acting so nonchalant about his apology and only apologized after he realized he wasn't welcomed in so they are both terrible apologies
He didn’t even acknowledge that he made Charlie really hate himself. The difference with Charlie is that as cheesy as it sounds it’s like the sun is shining every time he sees him.
Joe Lockes acting in that scene was phenomenal
That was amazing
He is an amazing actor.
For realll!!! 😭😩
So Ben has assaulted Charlie more than once, and Charlie still has to see him at school every day. That must be so painful.
Right!
In a way, I can relate. I know it will really mess with mental health.
Charlie won't have to see him at school anymore because Ben is moving away.
I’ve been in Charlie’s place and I didn’t feel painful because I thought I deserved nothing better. So he probably didn’t feel the pain until he met Nick and realized he did deserve better
Ikr. Then he sees him during the Paris trip *AND* sits next to him at dinner while they were in Paris.😭😭
It is...
Such an important scene. Even today, it’s so rare to see a character not automatically (or indeed ever) forgiving someone be presented as a justified and fair reaction (seriously, the only other example I can think of is Herb and Bojack).
Do I believe that Ben is an inherently bad person who’s fundamentally incapable of changing? No I don’t. Despite all the terrible things he’s done, (gaslighting, verbally abusing and even sexually assaulting Charlie), I think it all comes from a place of extreme self hatred and internalised homophobia. But that doesn’t make anything he’s done okay or forgivable to Charlie or indeed anyone else who can’t forgive him.
I hope this is truly the last time we see Ben. I honestly believe he has the potential to grow and mature out of his toxic habits, look back and question how he could have ever been as cruel as he was. But showing it would cheapen the insane integrity that this show has built across its two incredible seasons so far.
It will be the last time we see him, Alice confirmed that
@@kanalkucker14 brilliant. I’d expect no less from a writer like Alice.
@@kanalkucker14 She confirmed he won't be returning to Heartstopper but he could still come back if they adapt Solitaire
Ben was horrible in season 1 but he is a totally different person in season 2.
I think this also shows how sometimes when you did hurt someone the best you can do is really just leave them alone, they don't need you to say "i'm sorry" to get over it
Looking back at Charlie's character development in season 2, he became such a strong & brave character because he wants to protect what he has with Nick. He put aside all his fears and supported Nick in every step of the way, even confronting the people who made him suffered. So when Nick finally told him that he doesn't have to be perfect for him, it got us all emotional because learning from on his past trauma, Charlie always felt like he has to be perfect for someone he loves and ignores all his pain.
I love how strong Charlie is in this season!
I know it’s not shown in this video but one of the most important scenes in this whole show at least for me is after Charlie confronts Ben he stands outside the art gallery that is show casing LGBTQIA+ works and artists. They illustrate the rainbow coming out of the building and the colors are just barely not touching Ben and the colors are illustrated like water. Then it pans down to his feet and Ben takes a moment and then walks away. The scene is giving him that moment to think about walking into that building so he can forget about all of the preconceived notions he has on sexualities and to go into that building to finally connect with people that have been exactly where he is now and maybe look at some art that perfectly reflects what he goes through everyday with liking men but he finally makes that choice to not take that leap and to not at least for a moment free himself from that burden.
Sad but it's deep 😢 you know
@@flo_wer2920 Definitely. After that scene I had to just take a moment and reflect on it. I haven’t seen anyone talk about that scene yet and I’m surprised because of everything that one moment reflects in just a short amount of time.
Kinda wished he would have walked into that building. Not as redemption but as a nod that he will at least learn to accept his sexuality.
@@blondeboyworld Yeah, me too.
@blondeboyworld I thought he was going to dip his toes into the river of truth and possibilities, but he chose to walk away.
Joe Locke's acting in this scene is something else!! he deserves more appreciation
I had a Ben in my life. And I'm telling you, he should NEVER come back.
I really hope Ben's character will have genuine redemption. But Charlie doesn't need to see that.
I think we have to put our feet in Charlie's shoes and ask ourselves, "How will I feel if I always see my assaulter?"
Yes!! We have seen so many shows where queer characters are expected to act like saints and personally redeem people who’ve abused or bullied them. I’m so glad Heartstopper didn’t do that. Charlie doesn’t owe Ben a thing, and he’s spent *so* long putting Ben’s, and everyone else’s, needs before his own. Charlie still has so much healing to do, and he doesn’t need Ben around to make that any harder than it already will be.
Our Charlie Spring has finally grown up and told Ben off that he's done with him. It shows that the "love" Charlie had with Ben was fake he was being used while the love he and Nick have is real.
What I found really interesting is how they swapped the Harry confrontation in the books, to Ben's in the show. It makes perfect sense because in the books, we see Harry as more of the enemy to Charlie, whereas in the show, the main enemy is Ben.
I still think Harry should have got more than just a "no" from Charlie at the party.
Harry apologised, yet he slammed the door in his face. Really don't think that was a good / positive message to send to younger viewers.
@adsheff Harry apologized because he wanted to be let into the party, and because he realized people weren't on board with his homophobia. It wasn't a genuine apology, he was just trying to keep his popularity intact
@@rubenfajardo7064 What would constitute a genuine apology?
@adsheff maybe not doing it in front of a room full of people, as a prerequisite to get into a party (thus trying to ambush them into accepting the apology) for a start?
@@adsheffin the final episode we hear Harry mocking Nick and Charlie at the prom after they slam the door in his face, so I think it’s fair to assume that he didn’t mean a word of what he said
I was SO PROUD OF CHAR FOR THIS
I would have been able to feel bad for Ben, if he didn’t assault Charlie in season 1, and didn’t spend the entirety of season 2 Taunting Nick to make him feel insecure. Plus the whole part about Ben being unable to acknowledge just how f’d up what he did to Charlie was. He apologized but clearly doesn’t get how serious what he did was, so much that he expected Charlie to just forgive him right there and then. His entire apology was also just about him, and how he felt.
He only apologized because he was so delusional that he really thought that a half hearted apology was enough to get Charlie back.
@@Laura-vs8bbyes it’s really interesting how deluded he was. Because this is true, people can get so delusional they just have no concept of other people’s feelings
Ben’s a narcissist. He doesn’t realize the damage he does. All he cares about is himself and doesn’t care about what he does or who he hurts to get what he wants.
@@thecolorfulscholar1365Similar to Cersei from Game of Thrones. Only difference is that he isn’t a mass murderer.
I love the fact we still got this scene! I was worried when he didn't say this to Harry at Tara's party like in the books. This was such a better way to play it!❤
Yeah, I agree. At first I was pissed off we didn't get the book scene with Harry. But to have it with Ben instead makes a lot more sense
@@WxB2001agree. At least on the show it’s a lot more meaningful between Charlie/Ben than it would have been between Charlie/Harry. But Ben has a much bigger role in the show than he did in the comics.
I can relate to Charlie. As much as I want to forgive this person, I can’t. I am generally a very forgiving person, but this person crossed the line. I tried to force myself to forgive, but at the end of the day, I genuinely can’t. The depression that he caused me, it sucks. Every day, I’m trying to build myself up again.
I am so glad that Charlie stood his ground. This scene is so empowering for me.
Forgiveness is voluntarily given. It cannot be forced.
I love that this reinforces that you don't have to forgive someone.
I do wish Ben would have walked onto that rainbow becking him, maybe he walks away at first then goes back- because I think that would have be a first step to him actually working to be a better person
Yeah me too but it takes time for some people to change
But why is that a good thing? Forgiveness, after an admission of guilt and apology, is vital if the world is to move forward together. What would it take for Charlie to forgive someone?
@@adsheff not everyone needs to forgive. Especially when the apology misses the mark.
@@adsheffyou really think Ben deserves forgiveness from the person he sexually assaulted and made to feel worthless?
@@mike-m123 forgiveness isn't for the other person. It's for yourself; and yes, it takes time. It doesn't mean you should forget what happened to you. It just means that traumatic experience no longer has any power over you
To be fair,Ben kinda deserved to hear all of that since he did treat Charlie very badly like a human pet.
Ben took a lot from Charlie,so it’s about time that Charlie took back his power and told him off after everything that Ben did to him.
I get that Ben might come from a messed up household with parents that wouldn’t accept him for who he truly is but it’s no excuse how he treated Charlie & Imogen. Ben might of been going through personal issues at the time when he was with Charlie but he still traumatized Charlie for life,he’s the whole reason why Charlie’s has low self esteem not just with Charlie’s other bullies.
But Ben was not only a bully but a abuser to Charlie of physical & mental abuse. Ben was lucky enough that Nick & Charlie didn’t report him of his attempted assault when he forced himself on Charlie that day or worse Charlie’s sister Tori got involved with Ben and that could end badly with Ben once Tori is done with him since Tori would do anything at any extent to protect her brother and she can be very intense whenever she needs to be when it comes to helping her brother out.
0:07 The way Charlie's expression shifted so quick
Everything about this scene was amazing! It’s honestly rare where you get a show with an LGBT protagonist where they don’t go back to their toxic love interest, so this was very refreshing! It was so satisfying seeing Charlie not take Ben back and tell him the hurt, pain, and insecurity he has caused him. It shows Charlie’s growth a lot for someone so young! Nick, from the moment he met Charlie, has been so sweet, caring, and loving to him and gave him real love and built him up which is the complete opposite of what Ben did. That alone can give one an uptick of self-worth and esteem and that is a testament of what real love can do. I never read the comic, but everything about the show is so good! The characters and the storyline is just so wholesome and sweet! I’m hyped for season 3!
If any of you have any 'but' after this scene, read Solitaire then come back lol. He doesn't change at all
Charlie has more class,character, and strength! Then he realizes!❤❤❤
This is a perfect example of somebody apologizing for their own ego and self worth. I think deep down Ben regrets what happened with Charlie but clearly doesn’t realize the full extent of the hurt he caused him. Only once he sees Nick and Charlie happy together does he realize that he actually still has feelings for Charlie and sees Nick as taking him away from him.
This actually made me cry, because I can relate to them both in different ways. I relate to Charlie by being in a toxic relationship where the other one pretends to not know me and treats me like air sometimes. I relate to Ben by having done something bad (obviously not as bad as what he did) and dealing with the consequences by losing friends.
TBH, I'm going to miss Ben, at the end of the day, he's part of the show... and it's going to be weird not seeing Bash along with the rest of the cast from now on.
The part where that kind of "little wave" with the colors of diversity almost touches Ben's feet, but he finally walks away, it breaks my heart 😭💔 I feel like it's a metaphor for how close he is to know the love, but that with his attitudes he ends up driving him away.
I thought it meant he was going to live the rest of his life in the closet. As in he would end up marrying a woman and having kids like his parents would have wanted.
@@karinajohnson4443well I believe Ben is bisexual just like Nick. So it wouldn’t really effect him in the long run, unless he finds a guy he’s attracted to, like Charlie. Being bisexual in secret will obviously eat at Ben because he will possibly never be comfortable coming out as long as he’s parents are in his life.
@@dylanj739 If he is bisexual like Nick, then why did he rather end up wanting Charlie, even after having been in a relationship with 2 girls?
@@karinajohnson4443 Same could be said about Nick.
@@dylanj739 Which girls were Nick in a relationship with, before dating Charlie?
i’m really glad to see that charlie in the second season is starting to stand up for himself more.
About Ben not entering the rainbow.
You know I am not surprised that he doesn't want to join the queer club yet. Because - what could he do? He will see those queer paintings and do what then? His family wouldn't accept him, his friends wouldn't accept him, he can't join Charlie's group, he has noone to share his queerness with. Now I think all he can do is to find new people who are not homophobic and I think it can happen. He is leaving Truham now so now he can think twice before he found another homophobic friends. I think the change in him actually already started but it needs a long time for him to leave the room of internalised homophobia and change at all.
But by the way I was just thinking about it yesterday. How dangerous internalized homophobia is, especially for a kid. Because if you raise your queer child in homophobic beliefs, if you make their self esteem dependent of their sexuality, if you make them looking for approval between homophobic people, make them hate queers and escape from the every piece of rainbow into "real boys" club, you 1) make them the loneliest people in the world with no one to trust and no one rely on 2) you put them between people who can he be potentially dangerous for them, who can willing to hurt them. It is like living with the lions. You can feel strong because lions are lions are strong and dangerous but they can eat you at any moment.
An example - what if Charlie or Nick have fallen in love with a new male teacher and then got abused by them, what could they do? It could be horrible but they could always go to tell their parents, their friends, they trusted teachers. They couldn't be blackmailed because they are already out and they couldn't be easly manipulated because they have supportive people besides their back.
But what if that happened to Ben? What would he do? I honestly have no idea. His parents probably don't even know that programming him toxic, homophobic beliefs and raising him for a "real man" they actually put their son in the lion's jaws. It needs years od working on yourself to earse rhat shame and guilt and fears. You have to build your entire self esteem on something different than being a steight strong man, you have to completly change your group of friends, you have to get ready for your parents' rejection, you have to rethink your entire set if beliefs. It is a lots of work before joining the qieer folks. But I believe the change alreadh started in Ben. He slowly realises rhat he did wrong and he slowly realizes that the world can be happier if you are not a prisoner if hour own beliefs.
I really hope Joe Locke gets an award for this scene.
He's SOOOO deserving of it!! They all are!!🥰🥰🥰
I am fully aware that Ben treated Charlie (and Nick, too, but especially Charlie) really bad, just like Charlie said in this scene and other people in the comments. And I totally understand that Charlie doesn't forgive him. But at the same time I can't help it that I'm really sad that he won't be there in season 3... what maybe relates to the fact that I really like Sebastian Croft as an actor. And I totally understand when people do not like Ben because of the things he did to Charlie and I fully understand that Bash and Alice decided that there is no redemption arc for Ben. Like it makes sense because if he's able to change it's not the topic Heartstopper will be dealing with because it is not his story which is being told and I read that he isn't even in the second book (shame on me, that I didn't read the comics). But nonetheless I feel very bad for him. Like some others said, he must feel very left alone now, there is nobody knowing about his feelings and nobody supporting him. But like Charlie said I'm hoping that he will become a better person and that he finds the right environment where he can be and accept who he really is... sadly we won't see that in season 3. (But what about a spin-off? Haha)
And I also wish Bash all the good for the future, I'm very sad that he is leaving because he seems to be a very nice person and he is a very good actor... who played that role the best it could have been, I think. But I'm also sure there are more things to come from him/with him and I'm looking forward to it... and to season 3 of Heartstopper of course. 🍂🍃❤️
PS: Please excuse any failures, english is not my first language.
Omg I want him in a spin-off!!!
I think it's more of the fact that we don't want Bash to leave the cast since he has great chemistry with everyone.
What did Ben mean when he said if he had more time? More time to what? Keep treating Charlie like a human pet or actual treated him better? Before Charlie started dating Nick
I have very mixed feelings about this... Joe and Bash nail this but it's incredibly sad. You've got the Charlie character carrying a lot of vicious damage... and it was vicious, with the Ben character craving salvation and forgiveness to wipe away his toxicity... Ben ends up being a tragic character, sadly I know too many people who, many years ago, suffered from the stigma and shame from family and are still feeling that pain. As Bash walked away I just had a glimpse of a unhappy and loveless future for Ben's character... brilliantly played and lifted the show out of the sugary sweetnes and light that it sometimes get criticised for.
Ben really tried to play the sympathy card and Charlie tore him down!
Can we talk about how Ben was much more on Charlie than he was with IMOGEN both seasons? I mean,he was so quick to drop Imogen meanwhile tried everything he could in his head to "win back" Charlie by "apologizing".
I mean Imogen dropped him lol bc she is fierce and realized bens a weird piece of crap
I was like, Hell Yeah!
Ben had the nerve
This whole scene made me wished that if s3 owl house were longer, we can see Amity properly confronts Boscha after Belos was defeated, instead of the ones we got in FTF. Amity expresses how she finally have someone (Luz) to not just see and understand her as what she is, but also encourages what she actually wants. And regarding the weird ship thing, maybe Amity could say that if Boscha really likes her, she could've made the move all way back, but she didn't or couldn't. And despite Boscha explaining that her moms won't support her decision, Amity could tell her that Boscha have a choice to either forever "enslaved" by her parents or stand up to herself like Amity did to Odalia.
Such a big moment for charlie the entire show i felt like he was being "saved" by Nick and isnt his own person this is the first time he doesnt need anyone to save him and stand up for his abuser without forgiving him great acting too
I'm not defending Ben but it's pretty obvious he's struggling with his sexuality. When people lash out like that, usually means they're dealing with something internal. Let's not forget he's just a kid. Who knows what his family/parents are like at home, I wouldn't be surprised if they are toxic. His story arc is actually interesting. Heartstopper is such a great show, but not everything is perfect - case in point, Ben's storyline. Again, I'm not defending him, I'm basically saying he's a kid who really needs help. He probably has no one to talk to about his sexuality, who knows what other issues he may have.
the show acknowledges the fact he’s struggling and has a hard life, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for him to abuse and assault people with no repercussions. his storyline is done very well and i’d say it actually contributes to why heartstopper is so great. in real life there are people like ben who just refuse to even try changing or bettering themselves and they have to live with the consequences.
@@fluffyfurbie It's not okay to abuse/assault people. I'm just saying, he needs help - I don't think just casting him away is the answer. If they do that, it's more likely he will just hurt someone else. He needs to learn what he is doing is incorrect. He needs therapy.
ben is a narcissist
I believe he does need help, but the person he sexually assaulted is in no obligation of doing so
He does have people though. He's literally best friends with Imogen before he goes and ruins that for himself too. He had Charlie to talk to, but liked the idea of just getting on with him without people knowing. YOU have to reach out to people, people don't just come when you need them. Charlie had to reach out to find support. Nick had to reach out to find support. Imogen did. Darcy did. Tara did. Elle did. You can't just expect it to come to you when you treat other people like crap.
Why are some people in the comments acting like Charlie owed Ben an apology? Guys, Ben was verbally, mentally and sexually abusive to him, how was he supposed to react? And besides, Ben’s “apology” wasn’t even an apology. He just tried to make excuses for his behaviour without actually acknowledging its seriousness and just expecting Charlie to be ok with that because “come on, Charlie’s a good person, he’s going to forgive me no matter what I say”. Oh and him being in the closet is zero justification for treating someone this badly. If you have some issues to sort out, you can do it without hurting others just because you want to feel better about yourself. So no, Ben apologising has nothing to do with being genuinely sorry, but mostly just so he can look at himself in the mirror and not feel like a complete piece of crap (which he is). Charlie doesn’t need to forgive Ben, and Ben doesn’t need Charlie’s forgiveness. What they both need is to be completely apart from one another in order to heal properly and come to terms with the past. In this sense, the best decision Ben made is leaving Truham. Continuing to impose his presence to both Nick and Charlie would only lead to more pain, and that’s not what they need in this moment. Ben can decide to start over in a new school where he can explore his sexuality in an healthy way, and Charlie can recover from his mental health and self hatred. That’s the best for everyone.
Ben is definitely no one favorite but his storyline line is the most interesting and mysterious. I think it would be powerful if we saw more of his backstory to why he is like this in further seasons, it would show there so much more progress that need to be made. The bueaty and sadness in this show is that some of us can see ourselves in the character, some people can see themselves in ben. Cause in reality sadly there are people like ben in our community. The acting deserves an Oscar in this scene.
Ben is worse as the story goes on in the comics. He is not a good guy and doesn't try to be. You have to try if you want to make a change, Ben doesn't try.
It's true that Ben's apology seems sincere, but it's not fair say that Charlie's refusal to forgive him was harsh. Some people keep forgetting what Charlie went through that led to his trauma & mental health issues. First he was viciously bullied to the degree that he hated himself, which only led to much darker and upsetting story. Then, he felt like he lose control over everything, including with Ben. I can't imagine how awful all of those experiences were that Charlie felt the need to control his eating, even during the Paris trip. It's even more heartbreaking because as much as you try to understand him, you just can't figure it out. So it's easy to apologise, but it's not easy to forgive & forget. So yeah, we may feel a little sorry for Ben but he had no right to ambush Charlie into forgiving him like that.
Ben's apology really doesn't seem that sincere, because he doesn't apologize for anything that caused Charlie pain. Charlie's pain comes from the abuse he suffered from Ben, the mistreatment, the insults, being treated like a toy. It had NOTHING to do with Ben not wanting to come out, and that is basically all Ben tries to 'apologize' (give excuses) for.
I know Ben doesn't continue in the book but I would love to have seen his ark and personal life at home and his coming to terms about how he treats people and his sexuality, flesh him out more nothing is ever just black and white something made him like this.😔
Unfortunately the writers seems to have adopted an "You're either with us, or against us" attitude, which reflects badly on them. The world isn't black and white, it's shades of grey. Everyone has their own inner demons they are fighting, and everyone makes mistakes. The message this scene sends is that if you make a mistake, even once, that's it, you are damaged goods and should be shunned for the rest of your life.
He does continue in the book, he plays a role in Solitaire, which is around Volume 4 of Heartstopper. He is terrible in it (he assaults Charlie and says some very terrible things about Tori and about Charlie's eating disorder) He gets a kinda terrible fate afterwards though....
@@ipurpleu1668Yeah, no. It's the same issue I have with The Sound And The Fury, with Jason Compson. Just a one dimensional sociopath with nothing more. It's black and white and annoying.
Charlie is right. I’m an SA and abuse survivor. I understand Charlie’s POV
Daaaaaaaayum that was a good scene
I saw online that ben wont be in season 3 thank you bye bye toxic ben
@@FreeTrial-vd2nh if people are going tru stuff they need to get the right help not abuse or control or manipulate thier spouse i was kinda like ben but i went tru therapy now im better .mayne if ven get help he will be a better perosn people need to stop saying they are going through stuff everybody go through things but that's just an excuse to try to control your loved ones which is toxic and not right that's all im gonna say hope this help of it didn't then oh well cause im not going back and fourth
Charlie is going to some stuff and it’s going to get so bad in next season, Darcy is going through some stuff too, but that did not make them hurt someone.
@@amnanasir473Thank you! There is no excuse for assaulting some and being manipulating jerk. I agree he needs help, but these kids got enough on their plate. Ben can go seek help elsewhere. I don't need him on my screen. I love Bash, but I'm happy to see Ben go.
@@FreeTrial-vd2nh All the characters go through stuff, and honestly Ben is one of them going through the least. Charlie has SERIOUS mental health problems and you don't see him treating others terribly. Ben has no excuse for the things he has done that are abusive.
I honestly feel bad for ben. He bad terrible things but he was alone. Charlie atleast had his friends and eventually nick but ben was always alone with who he really was. I hope he does come back
Felt bad for him too, but he wasn’t always alone. Charlie would’ve been there with him but he just used him. When Charlie left he had nobody 🤷🏽♀️
I agree. I think Ben has changed and I hope he comes back on a future show, maybe with a boyfriend.
Ben was in the same friends group as nick.
@@amnanasir473 you can be in the same group but not really be friends just acquainted.
First off Charlie never used Ben
Ben literally tried to take advantage of him so stfu
Can you do the scene where Charlie tells Nick abt his sh?
El no perdonar también es bueno para sanar.
this is true to life; many men have a hard time coming out and being true to themslves and live a wonderful life.
i’m using this as a monologue to audition for the school play lmao
Charlie was great in this scene stand up for himself and glad he didn't forgive Ben I hope become better person before he hurt someone else
I love Charlie
This reminded me of Glee's Karofsky. Ben deserved everything Charlie said. He seemed genuinely shocked that an "I'm sorry" didn't work. I'm worried he will now isolate himself more or self-harm or try to commit suicide. We won't know now that he's leaving. I really wanted him to step into the rainbow. I guess the show is saying you can't help everyone, especially when that person spats back at you.
In the book it’s Charlie who tries to commit suicide, and Ben physically assault him again, I’m glad this is the last of we saw of him.
Ben is terrible even later in the books. He didn't learn one thing from this.
This broke me when I saw it. Having been through a similar experience years ago I felt like Charlie was speaking my truth, saying everything I wish I had had the guts to say at the time. Sometimes these people don't deserve forgiveness when they never showed you a hint of compassion or empathy. It's hard but eventually you do find a way forward. You don't forgive, but you learn to put yourself first and heal
It's actually sad how much I relate to this. Sounds fakes but similar situation happened without any romance. Friend assaulted me, and then tried to act like this. I wish I had said something to this effect but I just left. It makes me feel so complete to see what I could've done
And the animation right after thus scene but Ben doesnot go inside 😭😭
No because why did this feel like Bash apologising to Joe rather than Ben and Charlie💔
I think this is Ben’s first step to getting better. His apology was… not great but not the worst either. I wouldn’t expect a 16 year old to know how to apologize especially one who has nobody to talk to. He’s starting to recognize how he messed up and the problems he has. I do think he will be a better person one day.
The only thing Ben recognizes is his internalized homophobia. But that wasn't the only problem at all. He was manipulative, obsessive, and abusive. Those were the things that hurt Charlie, not being scared of coming out.
I'm so glad that Charlie didn't forgive him here, there's often so much pressure to forgive people. But I don't think you are under any obligation to forgive people who hurt you, especially as much as ben hurt charlie, you can move on and heal without letting someone off the hook who doesn't deserve it.
can you do the teachers kiss scene?
How do you get the scenes? Like how are you able to screen record?
i screen record them on my macbook after i changed something on chrome settings (i actually don’t remember what i did but i'm pretty sure you can google it)
Can u do the scene where nick and Charlie r kissing in the last episode at the door and Charlie lifts his heels? PLEASE
Yo! Pls post Darcy scenes! Mostly her mom and that angst stuff it’s for an edit ty!
i’m going to try and make a darcy & tara scene pack don’t worry i got you
@@kiimdahyun tysm cause I can’t find the Darcy and mom yelling scsne ANYWHWRE 😭
@@Venturret editing that rn!
@@Venturret czcams.com/video/LuxuTUrlDy4/video.html
@@kiimdahyun tysm! Will there be like all Darcy scenes at some point? U earned a follow 😎
Felt bad for Ben in this one. Haven't saw him after
Kinda worried about him
He isn't ready and exhibits anger towards others
No need to feel bad, he deserves everything thrown at him 😀👍
We feel bad for Ben because we love Bash. As for the character himself, he's done nothing but make everyone miserable. He was narcissistic, abusive, and really needed a reality check.
It's confirmed that this is the last we've seen of Ben
@@mike-m123 ever?
never seen this show but seen clips of it but and what i seen the ben boy did the other boy bad real bad and i could said some time people do you so wrong that you can never forgive them and they shouldnt have your forgiveness
It makes we wonder would i forgive the guy who had issues with me
In my school days
And also for a fleeting moment do all people like this ever grow by trying to becoming better
Ben better not be the endgame! 😭
Uggg hate Ben so much! He is irredeemable in my eyes. Its all me me me with him. I love Sebastian though. Such a good actor
This an amazing scene with phenomenal acting from everyone expecially Joe but...
WHY DID BEN WALK AWAY LIKE THAT, MOVE YOUR ARMS anyone else notice it??
Does Ben and Charlie ever get in a fight?
solitaire
Should be captioned!
In the comics is it harry but yeah char 💪🏼
I truly understand and get that someone accepting and treating you like an actual human being shouldn’t be celebrated when it’s suppose to be expected like a common moral Curtesy, but honestly I feel like As far as this confrontation goes they dragged it a little to much and was pretty harsh on Ben to a degree, Charlie talked about Ben controlling him and that’s not exactly true did Ben create an environment where charlie was belittled in the relationship and mistreated? Yes but Charlie always had the option to walk away and break up with Ben and that’s what he did someone in a relationship who is afraid or scared wouldn’t have had the ability to do that. Heart-stopper paints a very happy and bubbly coming out story for the most part between two Caucasian males who for the most part had a pretty positive experience and stable home life but that’s not everyone’s story, again I’m not excusing anything Ben did but I think some understanding and compassion on his side would also be nice he clearly was eaten up about it and really did seem to like Charlie it’s just that being out for him wasn’t an option so he sabotaged or had a self defense mechanism to protect him self from that part of himself that he couldn’t accept. Confronting Charlie and admitting his wrongs probably took alot for Ben to do and the fact that he walked away from the rainbow to me only shows how he took back the steps he worked so hard to take forward which is sad to me.
Charlie owe him nothing, all his apology was about himself.
Charlie’s coming out wasn't positive. Sure, his parents accepted him, and he had the support of his friends, but he was still bullied at school and used by Ben. He was in a verbally abusive and manipulative relationship. It's not easy to walk away from an abusive relationship, especially if that's what you believe you deserve, and Charlie is just 15. He’s still young and naive. Just because Charlie’s coming out could have been worse, or his parents could not have accepted him, doesn't me it was positive. That kid is emotionally and mentally scared from what he went through and still suffering from the after-effects.
But if you want to compare, Darcy’s mother wouldn't accept who she truly is, but Darcy doesn't abuse those around her. She doesn't have it easy at home but doesn't take it out on anyone else. Ben doesn't deserve Charlie’s forgiveness because he doesn't believe his parents will accept him. Charlie never wished him ill. He only didn't want him in his life anymore.
I felt bad that Ben didn't take a step towards happiness and healing and following the rainbow, but what Charlie said was right.
@@Jgrace275 I think you guys really underestimate the power of family and friends support during a persons coming out journey. Charlie has accepting parents, an older sister looking out for his welling being and his friends who was always there for him and always tried to protect him, and although getting bullied in school is awful realistically it’s not that bad considering the alternative especially when he has such a solid foundation of people in his corner and in his life supporting him that’s more then what many people can say they have had coming out, there’s people whose family abandons them, leaves them homeless/kicks them out force them into conversion therapy Darcy is an example of a true bad coming out story but that’s only just a blimp of reality of what people can and have gone through so yes if where being transparent and aren’t just being fans of the show and character Charlie had a pretty positive experience with his coming out story, I say that to say this , that is why I’m able to sympathize with Ben with the struggles of him coming out what he did to Charlie is Unexcusable but I feel like had the circumstances of his life had been different he could have Been a good boyfriend to Charlie, we have not yet experienced such a detrimental coming out story on the show yet so I feel like yes Charlie is allowed to feel how he wants but he also needs to be empathetic to the fact that Ben is just like him but with out the support system he’s literally battling this thing on his own he has no real friends to talk to about it, no family supporting or looking out for him hes completely alone and he’s the same age as Charlie so how else is he suppose to feel or conduct him self when he doesn’t have the right tools or people to guide or look up to. I just really wanted Ben to have a redemption arc because I feel like there’s more that can be discovered, learned and explored there I don’t want to minimize Charlie’s pain but rather high light Bens as well.
@@narutotrickzxtv3DI’m not underestimating friendships. I think you're underestimating Charlie’s experience. Yes, he could've lost his family and friends and been homeless or had to go to conversion therapy, but he kept a lot to himself and resorted to self-harm and an eating disorder to deal with his pain. He has friends, but what good is that if you don't let them in? In the first season, he told his teacher that his friends wouldn't understand some of his problems because they were not gay. In the second season, Tao said he never talked to him about the bullying with them. His family doesn't know about his eating disorder, so how is he decompressing? I work with Lgbtq+ teens I know the terrible things that can happen. I've heard and seen a lot of pain, but I also see teens who project happiness around their friends quietly struggle with mistreatment at school and attempt to take their own life. So it's not me being just a fan of the show. I objectively believe that you can have a positive coming-out experience, but I don't think Charlie had one. Did he have the worse one imaginable, no? But I don't believe in minimizing one person’s pain for a what-if storyline. I've also seen teens like Ben with so much internalized hatred that they hurt people. Not everyone has that redeeming moment, and that's realistic too. I can feel bad for Ben while agreeing with how Charlie handled it. He has enough on his plate. He doesn't need to help Ben fix himself. And you can't help anyone unwilling to take that step. Bash is a fantastic actor, and I look forward to his future projects, but I'm okay with not seeing Ben anymore.
In the end, I think we just have different interpretations of that scene. I think it was a healthy step for Charlie and proved to me that
Ben still wasn't ready to take that risk. Like I said before I felt bad that he couldn't do it, but sometimes thats reality.
Ben VERY much controlled Charlie. He took advantage of him when he was vulnerable. 'Controlling' someone has nothing to do with the physical ability to walk away. And guess what? Charlie does walk away! He tells Ben he doesn't want to see him anymore, and guess what Ben does? Sexually assaults him. He is controlling and obsessive and manipulative.
I know Ben deserved everything Charlie said to him. But I felt so bad for both of them in that moment. I hope they both find peace and happiness and I’m glad that confrontation happened for both their sakes.
You've never been bullied or assaulted, isn't it?
@@fiogio1830 I’ve been both. Forgiveness is liberating. It frees you from carrying around hate in your heart which poison your soul and makes you bitter and small. In Charlie, it manifests itself in his eating disorder. I guarantee somewhere in Ben’s past he was also bullied, most likely by his family, like Nick. This has turned him into a bully unable to accept himself and unable to express or find love. I wish he finds the courage to forgive himself, and be free. I’ve had experience on both ends of the spectrum. Therapy and willingness to do the hard work help me heal 💜
I really hate how they butcher this scene, it was supposed to be harry not ben, the entire purpose of the orginal scene was about how just bc someone decides to stop being awful bigot doesnt mean you should forgive them, instead this is another generic abusive partner is told to f off, which its not bad on its own but i dont like they ruined the harry scene
Where is CupcakKe in this scene?
OMG CHARLIE GROW UP. When do you ever get your bully to come up to you and give you a heartwarming apology. Charlie come onn.
I thought that at first but rewatch all the past Ben scenes, he’s a dick to Imogen, Ben and Nick in all of them. And in this apology he is actually smiling. He was sorry but only to make himself feel better.
He doesn’t owe an abuser forgiveness
Nothing about this was heartwarming. It was just excuses and addressing nothing that he actually did that was wrong. Charlie had NO problem with Ben not wanting to come out, he even TELLS him that. But that is all Ben tries to 'apologize' (or make excuses for). What makes Ben a terrible person is the abuse. He is manipulative (goes after Charlie when he knew the amount of bullying and abuse he was facing), controlling (the amount of times he texts Charlie and demands he write back, pushes Charlie's boundaries multiple times, deciding when they would meet up and not caring about what Charlie thinks about it) , treats Charlie like a toy to do whatever he wants with (only cared about hooking up with him, not even wanting to see him outside hooking up, in the novel he even finds it 'hot' when Charlie is crying), speaks about Charlie like he is a toy ("get him back"), sexually abusive, and just mean (insults Charlie so many times when he apparently 'likes' him). Charlie had no obligation to be kind to him.
@@ipurpleu1668 Yeah your right It just looked like he was really sorry that's all. Ben was a dick Charlie needed better.
Charlie told him already to leave him alone
I think this scene was really disappointing. He gave a heartfelt apology, and is clearly conflicted and troubled - and Charlie just tell's him to f* off. It's really out of character, and seems to give the message that even if people are contrite and realise they've done wrong, there is absolutely no forgiveness in the world of Heartstopper. This is a very social media / Twitter way of behaving.
Ben spend the entire season been a menace and spreading harm to others and charlie knew it , you dont get a tap in the head after all of it with one apology , ben needs to star over somewhere else an choose to fight for himself or keep harming himself to please his parents and that its super hard to do
I've just commented on my mixed feelings about this. Goes to show that some damage can't be fixed with an apology or even a heartfelt confession... the old saying " to err is human, to forgive Devine" not everyone is blessed with divinity...😕 bloody good acting though!
I'm sorry but he literally sexualy assaulted him and was emotionally abusive, he has all the right in the word to no accept the apologies because an I'm sorry it's not going to fix all the mental health problems it caused
It's great that Ben apologized properly but I think the lesson here is that you are not owed forgiveness when you hurt someone and that you do not have to forgive your abusers. It's not a social media/twitter way of behaving. I wouldn't forgive somebody who sexually assaulted me and emotionally abused me either.
Nothing about Ben's apology was heartfelt. It was just excuses and addressing nothing that he actually did that was wrong. Charlie had NO problem with Ben not wanting to come out, he even TELLS him that. But that is all Ben tries to 'apologize' (or make excuses for). What makes Ben a terrible person is the abuse. He is manipulative (goes after Charlie when he knew the amount of bullying and abuse he was facing), controlling (the amount of times he texts Charlie and demands he write back, pushes Charlie's boundaries multiple times, deciding when they would meet up and not caring about what Charlie thinks about it) , treats Charlie like a toy to do whatever he wants with (only cared about hooking up with him, not even wanting to see him outside hooking up, in the novel he even finds it 'hot' when Charlie is crying), speaks about Charlie like he is a toy ("get him back"), sexually abusive, and just mean (insults Charlie so many times when he apparently 'likes' him). Charlie had no obligation to be kind to him.
Is it bad that as much as I hated Ben and was glad he got what was coming to him, I kind of wanted him to have a redemption arc after this moment.