Bergmann Mars 1903 Pistol
Vložit
- čas přidán 14. 01. 2017
- / forgottenweapons
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.bbtv.com/collections/forg...
If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! / inrangetvshow
The military breakthrough for Bergmann finally came in 1903 with a new locking system for the pistol, designed by Louis Schmeisser (who had also designed the previous Bergmann handguns). In 1901, Schmeisser developed the new lock, and it was patented by Bergmann (his employer) primarily for use on heavy machine guns. It was used in these (and Bergmann HMGs saw some use in WWI), but it was also scaled down for use in the 1903 pistol. The new system used a square block that encircled the bolt and could travel a few millimeters up and down. This system externally looks very similar to the C96 Broomhandle Mauser, but is mechanically reasonably different.
This new locking system was more cost effective to manufacture and more reliable than the side-tilting bolt of the 1897 Bergmann, and it was also quite strong. Bergmann exploited this strength by introducing a new cartridge for the 1903 model - the 9mm Bergmann (clever name, eh?). Thanks to the Spanish, we know this round today as the 9mm Largo. It was a 9x23mm case, firing a 135 grain FMJ bullet at 1060-1115 fps (325-340 m/s) depending on the loading. This was the most powerful production pistol cartridge designed in continental Europe at the time, and had performance very similar to Browning’s .38 ACP.
Bergmann’s first major break came in 1905 when a Spanish testing board officially recommended the 1903 for military purchase and use. On September 5th of that year Spain placed and order for 3,000 Model 1903 pistols, chambered for the 9x23mm cartridge. This brought along a new problem for Bergmann - how to actually make them. Since 1896, Bergmann pistol production had been subcontracted out to V.C Schilling in Suhl, and Bergmann’s own industrial works were not tooled up for pistol production. In 1904 Schilling was taken over by the Krieghoff company, which decided to end the factory’s relationship with Bergmann.
The cost of setting up a pistol production line is quite significant, and Bergmann knew that his previous pistols had never managed to bring really significant sales numbers. Being the intelligent businessman, he was hesitant to make the investment in tooling and jigs for the 1903 without having more than the relatively small Spanish order. His solution was to use the facilities he had already set up for making the various prototype 1903 pistols. This allowed some production, but not at a very fast pace. In addition to the Spanish order, this production had to include commercial sale guns and samples for other testing (like the US trials). Bergmann’s own plant produced less than a thousand model 1903 pistols in total, and only a small number of these were sent to Spain by 1908.
1903 model gun....19:03 video length.
coincidence? i think not
Let me read you a passage of the Book of Bergman, chapter .9/1903
"And then the Great Gunsmith spoke: ."
I think so! with the 100s of his videos approx. this length, coincidence here is a 1000 times more likely than the many lottery winners, number combination, or chance of the same person winning big- twice.
"There is no such thing as coincidence"
Following these Bergmann videos has made me actually feel happy learning that Bergmann finally got that military contract after all those models over a hundred years ago.
These Bergmann series are quite a delight.
I find this Bergmann "series" fascinating and very informative. Different strokes for different folks. Thanks Ian.
Ian, who the hell has this many Bergmann's? They have like, all of them. They are my new hero... if only they had Han Solo's laser carbine...
Bergmann has as many automatic pistols as there are battles for the Isonzo...
There were about 10 I believe.
well he wasnt an idiot anyway
I had no idea firearms could be so mechanically fascinating. I'm really enjoying your content!
At last! Bergmann show signs of commercial maturity. 9mm Largo / 9mm Bergmann is a respectable cartridge.
That engraved one is too sweet.
I think the british had swivel lanyard rings on their revolvers, so maybe it was a requirement to have them on the automatic pistols too.
Hi Ian! in an earlier video discussing the future of ForgottenWeapons, you talked about reaching your Patreon goal to travel abroad, and then considered going to Canada. In Ottawa there is the Canadian War Museum (which already has neat stuff on display), and if you can get access to the white room storage in the Museum, I'm sure you can find lots of interesting pieces, like the Huot- Ross automatic rifle and the Spandau LMG
Yes Ian, Welcome to our wonderful, home and native land, where guns are almost plentiful, but no goes around shooting up churches, or mass crowds. Maybe it's too cold ;-)?
Naw, we're just less crazy cuz we don't have to go nutz worrying about medical bills.
Settle down with a coffee and FW. Sunday afternoon sorted!
I was getting a strong "suppressed HK Mk.23" vibe off these Bergman pistols... until I went back and actually compared them. Oh well!
I get a hunch that Ian loves the Bergman guns. Don't tell anyone. Darn they look amazing.
The first of these Bergmann videos where a shoulder stock/holster actually gets used.
I really think the bergmann pistols are beautiful especially the simplex and the mars
It is amazing to see all of these many variants of such a rare pistol in one place. Congratulations to the owner, it is truly an amazing collection.
I honesty feel bad for Bergman, he tried so much but couldn't get anything
It’s unlike you to express sympathy revy
Good timing. I was caught up on all the Bergmann videos in this series and spent several hours going thru your Civil War Guns playlist yesterday to make sure I hadn't missed any of those. Really like this series approach and hope to see it with other firearms. *BGM.41
Love the history you bring to the table!
Again, terrific series, Ian. Always had an affinity for the Bergman-Mars (and especially the later Bergman-Bayard), but not known a whole lot about them.
These are so many interresting informations about just one single gun... I totally appreciate your knowledge. It's so interessting to watch your videos.. Thx a lot!
Early Notification platoon reporting for a history lesson, Ian!
Beautiful gun's,thank you all ways in joy you're videos 🖒..my dream 45 gun!
I wish all CZcamsrs had the time to reply to questions us non- internet famous people have.
How likely are you to acquire a Bergmann mg15?
Eventually I will find one...
Gods I love these guns - all of them!! Still can't quite make up my mind as to which version is THE absolute coolest-looking one of all time but ... I'll get there lol
Hey Ian @ForgottenWeapons, I have a couple some what random questions I was hoping you would be able to answer. So from one long hair guy to another, 1)How long have you been growing your hair? And 2) how long does it take to dry it after bathing?
As always, great work man, keep it up!
Hey Ian, love your videos and I love the information and the way you present your videos! I'm a vivid fan of all firearms but my most favourite one is possibly the AS VAL and more importantly the 9x39mm round. Do you think you could get a chance to review any weapons that use it, or rather just the VAL?
Entertaining as always
It would be great to find out how all these guns came to be preserved.
Been following the series with interest because of Razorfist and his obsession with Bergman pistols in Hunt The Showdown LOL
Awesome content!
I've said in a previous video, that this pistol reminds me of the "lolife" pistol from the "Metro: Last Light" videogame..
I think you got the .45's mixed up Ian the Brits like a swivel loop more than the U.S.!!!
And now we have the Arsenal Strike One.
I'm not requesting a review, I'm pointing out that the lock system is similar.
Where did you find so many of the same type of gun? is this a museum collection or a private owner? Regardless, these videos have been awesome. I like the more in depth look at the lineage of a single weapon. Thanks.
Vinrafel in this case a private owner
In this case, my thanks to both Ian, and the private owner(s) for bringing this Bergmann series to us.
Very nice, that is certainly a robust collection. Props to whoever let Ian get his little gun hands on them.
Ian ive had and seen a few webley pistols and they all had a swivel ring for the lanyard. Maybe thats the one the army rejected.
As we are getting into the more refined versions of these guns, I have to say, the general design is rather good for the time. I do not think this failed due to being a bad design. I think just a bit of bad luck. Also I said failed, but these did not really fail per say. They just did not blow up like some of the other designs.
And they got rid of the model 3's and 4's stupid barrel shroud, the 'after thought' looking safety lever,(it was a good safety, it just looked like a little kid designed it - it's external catch spring on top of a bent clock hand lever with detents that were very hand filed looking), the pin the tail on the donkey disassembly order that required build-by-numbers skills, missing piece looking gas relief hole {SCARY!}, long firing pin, am I about done?
All that on an wheezing,underpowered piece . A fine piece for it's day, I'd love to own one in good firing condition. I'm sure that the tiny rounds would let you go all day without fatigue.
awesome history lesson
When the newer models came out, were the older models still available?
Speaking of the Fairfax Mars, that action wouldn't have been too bad in a full-size rifle, what with it being long-recoil-ish action, but as a pistol that was designed with the military in mind? That wouldn't have flown in the Battlefield 1 universe, let alone the real world! It's like how the Desert Eagle, this gigantic monstrosity of a pistol in calibers up to 0.50 inch was designed with the army in mind.
GoredonTheDestroyer The gun supposedly already feels like a miniature Naval gun. Are you sure you'd want that in rifle calibre?
No, I was meaning the firearm remain pistol calibre, but with a full length rifle barrel and stock.
GoredonTheDestroyer Oh. Well it would certainly be just as interesting a gun as ever.
The thing is with both the Fairfax Mars and Deagle is they have a lot of waste in their designs, you could make them a lot smaller and lighter without compromising on their good points.
I wonder if both those 45 caliber guns where for the brittish trials, the one with the diffrent laynard loop looks a lot like the laynard loop on a webley revolver.
The shoulder stock attachement doubles as a short bayonett
Love your content, but when you said "for you metric folks, that's an eight and a quarter gram bullet" I may have laughed.
I'm sorry for my sins gun jesus.
Ha ha agreed. Grains and inches for me.
James Healy Thanks for making me spit out my hardtack. There were only 12 battles for the Isonzo. I guess that means we have another 6 Bergmann episodes. Can't wait. I could watch Ian narrate paint dry.
we say "half" too
We do say half, and a quarter, third, etc (In Aus at least). It just struck me squarely on my funnybone.
Shooters who hand load their own ammunition in Europe also use the American system, simply because all the available equipment and loading tables are in grains and inches. Only Vihtavuori, the excellent Finnish gunpowder manufacturer, provides both US and metric data.
The metric system's party trick is that one milliliter of water (=half a thimble) occupies one cubic centimeter of space, weighs one gram, and requires one calorie of energy to heat up one degree centigrade. One degree centigrade is one percent of the difference between freezing and boiling water. You can see how you guys in the US switching to metric would really help out engineers and inventors.
17 more years to go
Beautiful engravings then, gold plating and diamonds now..
+Mamiya645 Still plenty of smiths doing fine engraving work out there these days, and they had more than a few gaudy guns back then plastered with gold & jewels.
I liked the old time gaudy a lot.. In my country I'll get full-metal airsoft weapons at most, I will be engraving those (and designing 3D printed stocks because it makes it so much better, more beautiful)
If the Hammer were back, could you release the safety by cycling the bolt?
Will you ever show us a Sites Spectre someday?
You should do a video on the 1903 Hammerless?
If they made it full auto, extended mag, wire stock with a little carbine barrel.
The lanyard ring on the 'American' one is pretty obviously a british style pistol lanyard loop.
Nice!
Morning! Are the trigger and hammer case-hardened?
A little rewatch.
Any idea what the price per piece was to the Spanish (and how that compared to like the Navy or Swiss Luger)?
I still can't believe that even back in the day they did ingravings on weapons.
Zuse Ram I have the feeling they did it more often back in the day than they do now.
Imagine being a stupidly wealthy early 1900's hunter with a these cool engraved rifles and pistols. Those guns would be a college fund for your great great great grandchildren. Shit, they could buy houses with those.
thank you for one more interesting video.
... and your french prononciation is improving :-)
"Oui, c;est si bon!" Ian, you're the best from the .. No BS, just quiet, self-assured pedagogy and enlightenment. . Thanks.for this detailed analysis. Was the owner's own stockpile of information was a basis for this incredibly detail narrative?
Will you be looking at an MP18?
7:30 ish - is someone sipping a coffe while you are recording the video? Or is this a sound effect for transistion?
What was the purpose of the ribbed stock?
So we just going to ignore the fact Spain trialled every automatic handgun and chose the Bergmann, yet no other military saw said results and said, "nah"
Did someone decide to sell off their substantial Bergmann collection? If not, how did you manage to get access to almost every Bergmann model made?
I think he mentioned elsewhere that this is a private collection, and that the collector offered Ian the chance to review, but preferred to stay anonymous themselves.
I'm in a bit of a bind, I own a DWM 1908 Brazilian short rifle I forgot what ammo It takes( haven't shot it in over 10 years) everything I look at says its a 7mm but they don't fit in the chamber right, would yall be willing to help me with this, I suck at using computers and I asked the damn thing every straight forward question I could think of I do hope yall can enlighten me, if not that's alright i know its a stupid question probably
Is it legal to own that shoulder stock/case in the US as long as you don't attach it? I know now that would be considered a short barrel rifle, but is there an exception for these because of the age? I could never afford one anyways, just curious... lol
Take a grain of salt with this, but: according to Wikipedia, the 1903 could take six- and ten-round magazines. Also: the American trials .45 with the laynard swivel: that looks eerily similar to the one on some C96 Mausers.
I wonder if these would be like to shoot. 9x23 is still available...
“Ian shot first.”
Quite funny how it's about the Bergman 1903 and the video is 19:03 long
Ian! Come to Texas! I have cool guns!
Is it really more uncomfortable to shoot a gun like this with the magazine in front of the trigger in addition to a "modern" gun with the magzine in the grips? The Bergmanns look quite comfortable to hold.
underscores : Partly, it would be an issue of balance. Partly, there's a size issue. Forward magazine makes the action longer, meaning a heavier and larger weapon.
Guns like this can often be front heavy but it's not worse than a long revolver.
The gun is very front heavy, which also makes it a bit tiring to hold one handed. While being front heavy makes the muzzle jump less, the height of the bore over the hand makes the jump worse.
are all the Bergman guns that you made videos on part of a private collection or a museum? Any chance you will travel st Petersburg artillery museum?
Part of a private collection
will surplus 9mm Largo running correctly in a Burgman pistol?
SHMeter MAN I would say so, but I think 9mm largo is chambered at a higher chamber tolerance so I wouldn't trust the Bergmann to handle it.
what 45 calibre would that have been
For Christs sake just rename the channel to "Bergmann Auto Pistol Appreciation Channel" already.
B.A.P.A.C. Gold-Tier Member
Sorry Bergmann, your 45 isn't 45 enough
Was the American trials gun .45 ACP, or proprietary?
Did anyone hear about the confiscation and NOT suspect sabotage?
no because multiple other guns used the same crappy ammo
me: mom I want a C96
mom: no we have a C96 at home
C96 at home:
Was there a Bruno Mars 1904? haha chuckles
Sadly I think the CZ "MARS" pistol was made at Strakonice rather than Brno otherwise it would be one!
I would imagine the Bruno Mars would have had the ability to catch a grenade *Chuckles*
Maarek Stele : What you did there, I see it.
That is good because I was laying the silly on rather thick...
Maarek Stele : As was I in my response. :p
C96
morning
is brasileiro fas um video sobre a smle mklll
The video is 19:03
When I heard this wasn't a Gabbot Fairfax Mars: =(
Disco King Imagine one of those in a shoulder stock. One can only dream.
It's funny they start out making custom 1911's an progressively wind up making Glocks , because there's no real money in actually nicely made guns .
This vid is 19:03 long.
Für ze Vatherland!
If it cannot use the worst ammo available its not a military gun lol
The Ruger P-89, while not a "forgotten weapon", nor a military weapon, is noted for its ability to eat just about any commercially available 9x19mm ammunition out there, including 9mm NATO and +P ammo. It will run an entire magazine where each round is a different brand, bullet weight, and shape. However, I personally saw one of those Ruger pistols refuse to reliably fire some 9mm made in Hungary by a company called MFS. Not sure if they had incredibly hard primers meant for open-bolt submachinegun use, or if they were just bad primers. However, it was the ONLY 9x19mm that pistol wouldn't eat. So, to say that a pistol isn't good because of one single brand of ammo is NOT giving that pistol a fair shake.
BF1 anyone? :D
Battlefield DLC
19
chocolate gun?
second!
Kinda a shame, the No.2 thru 4 guns looked beautiful, but as time went on they just became... very generic looking.
Agreed, I much prefer the lines of the mk2-4.
Han shot first