Let's Talk About Buffers
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- Episode 12: Let's Talk About Buffers
Welcome to the Chairmen of the Boards Podcast! The ultimate pedalboard podcast with the foremost rig builders in the world: Grant Klassen (Goodwood Audio), Brian Omilion (Omilion Audio), and Mason Marangella (Vertex Effects/The Rig Doctor). We've teamed up to democratize great tone and provide you with our best tricks, tips, resources and hacks so you can build the pedalboard of your dreams!
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Thanks so much guys! After many decades of playing I finally understand the relativity of impedance and the use of buffers,,,,,,thanks to watching a few of these podcast and Vertex Effects videos.
Glad to help!
Can you do a pedal video on line selectors and mixing drives or mixing effects. Boss, OBE, etc etc. Thanks. Always informative.
Using parallel mixers?
Yeah! Preferably for drive/drive drive/fuzz combinations. It would be awesome to see your take. But of course in your way!
Vertex does a better job highlighting the benefits of a buffer than any other guitar channel I know of. So it kind of surprised me that out of all the pedals they make, none of them are a buffer.
I would love it if Vertex made a 2 in 1 pedal with a dual buffer (similar to the Mesa High-Wire), with the Vertex Boost circuit built in. That would be awesome!
We do: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VBuffInt--vertex-effects-pedalboard-buffer-interface
@@VertexEffectsInc Nice! I don’t know how I missed this! Other than the boost feature, it seems to have everything the Mesa High-Wire has. Thanks!
Since installing quality buffers on my pedal board and arranging my pedals in the right order, installing quality cables, correcting my power supply issue’s I have never looked back,it was a learning experience over time,my sound is now awesome 😊
👌👌👌great news
Loving the Podcast Chairmen. Weekly road trips to Tone Town are pretty fun. I appreciate the Tid-bits on historical or popular pedal builders often referenced for perspective, like talking about how Cornish uses a buffer between EVERY PEDAL. Is that necessary? Probably not, but hey, if you wanted to isolate everything, should you just buy double the power supplies and slap a bonafide buffer or similar before and after every pedal?
I noticed that like you all have mentioned in this podcast, a lot of pedals don't actually end up working so well once you really have to scrutinize them as part of a larger rig interacting with other pedals and signals. I have found so many pedals that I love to play alone or with one or two pedals but really don't gel with my rig the way others of the same effect type has. I think this has a lot to do with why you can see some pedals so popular on players boards over the years. Obviously there's other factors but, some things just play well (timmy, klon, JHS stuff and clones of it are super pedalboard friendly).Would using a buffer after every pedal let me use any pedal I want together and have them play nice?
So glad you dig it. No, it's a bit overkill and can add a lot of noise to the system as well if not done properly. Also some pedals might behave more consistently but maybe not within their normal character as a consequence. And yes, most pedal builders, aren't rig builders so they don't often consider pedals before and after their pedals other than perhaps trying it with and without a buffer. Buffers between stages can help, however in some cases might not make any difference or might even change the way pedals interact in a negative way depending on the circuit. Since there are not standards for pedals it can be hard to predict.
I run a 3-amp rig, with dedicated switching for multiple pedals for each amp, each amp using 4CM noisegates, and stereo effects for two of the amps. It was hell to sort through the isolation issues, but now that I have, I don't think I can go back!
Mason talks a lot about buffers and for good reason. I bought a polytune 3 and set it to buffered mode at the beginning of my chain. Huge improvement in tone ! And no extra space required since I need a tuner anyway.
Yes, but also be sure to have an output buffer!
@@VertexEffectsInc It’s a direct board, so I’ve got a cab sim stereo XLR pair out of the board. But yes, if it was to an amp, I’m totally sold on buffers.
This helped me out big time to achieve a consistent tone/sound coming out of my hotrod Deville 410 (platform).
Glad it helped! Hope we earned your subscription to the channel!
@@VertexEffectsInc you most definitely did!
Reading my mind again..have you fellows ever done a tutorial on using the ohm meter..checking chord values etc.. i know we touched briefly on it last week..would like to check from pedal to pedal etc..also can't find goodwood canadian link..appreciate what you guys are doing is a big help and a great learning experience..Thanks Eh!
You can check some specs for the cables, but you'll also be getting the plug capacitances in addition to the cable if you don't disassemble the cable or measure the plugs separately for capacitance if you have them in bulk to back-weight them from the total number of pF divided by the number of feet of cable.
@@VertexEffectsInc I have found a Canadian store ...Mojo..I am thinking of getting the vertex boost to start..can I still have an input -output booster if I have a strymon big sky at the end of pedal chain,oand booster at start..???
@@Boomsterblak That'll work great!
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks everyone..your show is awesome..thanks for the help good chance I'll have my boost by next weeks show ..are we staying at 2:00 mst.
The Peterson StroboStomp HD has a buffer and according to them (I wrote to them and asked) it has 5 MΩ input and 100Ω output impedence. Is that a good buffer?
I've compared the Strobostomp buffer with the Radial Shotgun buffer and the TC Spark Mini buffer, and much prefer the Strobostomp first in the chain. It sounds much more natural and less harsh to me.
Thxs! That was just perfect!!!
Knowing that RJM has good buffers but due to board layout for guitar in and amp out I want a central point. What would be my best options? New to all this and enjoying the journey.
You can use their buffers and just have it fed by a passive interface box..we have videos on how to make them on the channel.
Newbie here - when it is called a buffer, to me that would reduce a signal strength. Now I'm finding that a buffer actually boosts the signal. Terminology I guess. Good video!!
The buffer is designed to maintain the guitar signal 1:1. Remember most buffers are poor, even from the brands most of us know. A good buffer is maybe 1 in 20 of the buffer out there, maybe 1 in 50.
In an ampless rig running a UA Dream as your “amp”, you don’t have a long cable run from your last pedal to the Dream, so is an output buffer as necessary?
You still have a cable out of it to your mixer don't you?
@@VertexEffectsInc Hi Mason: thanks so much for all your advice on pedal boards. It's been amazingly helpful to me. Two questions on the UA Dream (which I'm considering buying) as it relates to the need for a buffer. 1. I may have misunderstood your answer, but would the output buffer go between the pedalboard and the Dream (or similar pedal), or after the Dream, to push the entire signal to the mixer. 2. I assume there would need to be a DI box after the Dream, as the mixer probably expects a mic-level signal. Does that affect either the need for, or placement of, the output buffer? Thank you so much.
Wait a minute… are you guys about to release the perfect end-all-be-all stereo buffer?
We are releasing one, yes: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VBuffInt--vertex-effects-pedalboard-buffer-interface?main_web_category_rollup=4/1381/1385&mrkgadid=3250494488&mrkgcl=28&mrkgen=gpla&mrkgbflag=1&mrkgcat=brand&acctid=21700000001645388&dskeywordid=92700046937728350&lid=92700046937728350&ds_s_kwgid=58700005283819379&ds_s_inventory_feed_id=97700000007215323&dsproductgroupid=375141381286&product_id=VBuffInt&prodctry=US&prodlang=en&channel=online&storeid=&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&adpos=largenumber&locationid=9032072&creative=228658011803&targetid=pla-375141381286&campaignid=741659211&awsearchcpc=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw-8qVBhANEiwAfjXLruQYcBej4RlVYI1-ggh6dGEKHgJtCkc3KiYJoo34QpFVbTo0F6qiwRoC-IAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Some Gallien-Krueger amps have a trim control to compensate for the signal seen by your bass guitar or whatever pedal it sees, so whether you use active or passive pickups, or whatever pedals, you can set the trim exactly until the alert light stops blinking… this seems very innovative…have you explored this alternative approach?
It's a consideration for bass buffers for sure. For guitar, 1M is too ubiquitous to mess with.
I need some assistance on the five cable method. I want to run to stereo rig but was unable to locate a diagram on the Internet. As I understand it the only difference between the four cable method and five cable method is that the fifth cable goes to the line in on the second amp. Thanks!
The fifth cable goes to the FX Return of your stereo amp. Watch our video on Advanced signal paths, all is explained.
I am taking the buffer advice to heart, and I am using a Strymon BigSky as the outgoing Buffer. However, I am having trouble finding specs for some of the buffers in the pedals I potentially could put at the front. Do you know if common always-on pedals like the EP booster, or tuners like Peterson StroboStomp, or Korg Pitchblack meet your Buffer specs?
I think those are all under 500K or over 3M...so no so far not so good for an input buffer.
Sorry if I'm a little late to the game here. I'm running my guitar into an EP Compressor (always on) then into the buffeted input on my Boss ES-8. Then at the end of the chain from the buffered outputs of the ES-8 into a Walrus ACS1. Am i covered as far as buffering my signal?
You should be fine with the ACS-1 and the EP on the input...it might be a little loaded down but not too bad. I think it's 470K ohms input (about half of 1M).
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you sir. I appreciate your input.
Hey Scott. Lol !! My signal chain starts with my guitar going into a Digitech trio + then a Deja vibe pedal into a Ibanez TS-7 tube screamer into a Fulltone OCD into a Klon centaur Klone. It’s an exact Klone if you seen it you wouldn’t know the difference. Ok into a electro Harmonix fuzz into a starlight echo station into a strymon big sky. Big sky to the amp. Do I need a buffer. All my pedals are powered by an ispot something 12 I forget what the model number is. Do you think this order is ok or can you recommend a better order. Please let me know. Thanks Scott only kidding.
I would change the order some here. Typically the Trio is either looping in pedals in the loop send/return or it's dead last before your amp/mixer. I would have the guitar hit the Deja, then Fuzz, then OCD, TS-7, Klon, Starlight, then Big Sky, finishing or returning into the Trio before your amp/mixer. If you bring it straight of the guitar, you're only getting dry guitar with no effects (unless that's what you want). I would suggest leaving the Big Sky in buffered mode and putting an input buffer after your Fuzz.
Have you guys ever tried the Okko fx Variable input buffer? I saw it at my local pedal shop but there are no videos on youtube about it… made in germany basically its a buffer that lets you set the exact impedance and cap levels you want at the front
Well...it has no output impedance specs so that doesn't speak well for what it's doing after the "Capacitance" and "Impedance" controls. The other issue is that you don't know the value you're adjusting for...it ranges from 10K to 10M so you don't really know where you on that spectrum relative to 1M. Also the capacitance thing is just simulating a longer cable, but remember that capacitance is different cable to cable even if the readings are the same, just like a Mica Cap sounds different that a Ceramic Cap at the same value...so what kind of capacitance are we adjusting for?
hello, I have a whammy dt and a wha wha Dimebag where should I put the buffer, before them or after?
Jason, does vertex have a release date for its stereo buffer pedal? I can guarantee you the sale of at least one.
www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VBuffInt--vertex-effects-pedalboard-buffer-interface
The big question: Do you need a buffer when using amp in a box pedals like the UAFX Dream '65 and about 5 OD pedals in the front using 2" long patch cables?
Input buffer for sure. Output buffer, depends, how good is the output impedance of the UA pedals? I don't see the specs.
Mason on this video you speak of buffer input and output impedance....I have an Empress Buffer which has the 1 meg input buffer you speak of but the output buffer is 510 ohms. You recommend an input buffer of 1 meg and an output of 100 ohms. Am I ok with this?
510 is a bit higher than ideal, but better than most at 1K. Ideally you're as close to 0 ohms as possible.
@@VertexEffectsInc Man do you know your stuff. I disconnected buffer return from Empress Buffer (while still using it's input) and set last pedal in chain, which is an original Hall Of Fame, to buffer option. What a difference in sound and feel...not subtle very noticeable and I love it! So now going to make some changes on board...Thanks!
Thanks guys. As mentioned on the channel many times, I've followed Mason's advice on input/output buffers with excellent results. Typically running TC polytune w bonafide buffer input first and TC bonafide buffer out to amp. Curious: If I'm running a Strymon pedal last in chain ( i.e Flint) does the pedal need to be ON to be buffering my output signal? Much appreciated. Cheers!
If it’s a buffered bypass, then no
If your Flint is always on, you don't need another output buffer on top of it. You could also just sent the Flint to remain in buffer mode as well.
OK, here is another question: I run around six pedals in the effects loop of my HX stomp and blend that Signal back into my clean signal at around 50% (to keep my clean signal). Would I gain anything by putting buffers at the Send and return of that effects loop?
If they're all on the pedalboard, no. I would still buffer the input and output of the HX however.
Awesome! I received my Goodwood Output last week so that I could use the five cable method as you guys have described as well as to just summing when I go with one amp.. I know that's not ideal for true stereo summing Mason but right now I have to simplify. I do have a Tc Electronics Sentry Noise Gate that is always on, within the loop as well as what the guitar hits first within the Gigrig 3 Atom that I have, so, does this constitute an input buffer? I do have a Mesa Highwire but do I really need that with what I have? I also go wireless most of the time.
Joe...I'm not following totally your signal path, but your Sentry is probably only buffering on the Send or the Output (not sure which one or both). You can watch our signal path video called "Advanced Signal Paths" and it will explain more about your gate and buffers.
What would happen if you put buffers in the middle of the pedal board? e.g. you start with a tc input buffer then run 4 pedals of modulation then another buffer before you hit the distortion section another buffer before the time-based section and finally one buffer at the end of the pedal board. and for consistency will stick to tc bonafide buffer. having too many buffers will it take away from the tone?
It wouldn't help you much where you needed it. Turning a pedal on mid-pedalboard is also buffering in the middle of your chain, true bypass or not.
So, I apologize if you explained this in the podcast. I'm having a hard time understanding impedance and buffers. Are the Boss buffers actually detrimental to the tone or just not good enough? I have a very small board: Boss tuner -> Overdrive -> Amp sim -> Boss reverb -> DI box. Since I don't have long cable lengths, am I ok? Or should I place buffers up front and back? Thank you!
Peter, Boss buffers are poor and can negatively impact your tone if you use too many. I usually don't sweat it too much if you have a few Boss pedals on the board, I just don't depend on them as my buffers.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you!
If I have a noise gate last in the chain (tce sentry) should I put the exit buffer before it or after? Using the Source Audio Ventris for verb right before it.
It's more complicated than that...you Gate has four connections, I'd have to know more about your amp and what's being gated.
What is the impact of a high quality buffer feeding into a lower quality buffer (such as one integrated into a Y splitter). Is the signal after the lower quality one reduced in integrity I assume or does it carry through
Why not just put the y splitter off of the input buffer. A tuner out or Y cable is the same thing as making a y cable.
Mason, Grant or Brian, this is a question to any of you. Let's say I'm running my pedals through a switcher like the Boss ES-8 or the Mastermind PBC 6X and one of those pedals are a fuzz (ex. Green Russian Big Muff), I assume the input buffer will need to take up one of the loops on the ES-8 since buffers needs to sit behind a fuzz, right? But the output buffer on the other hand can sit right after the output of the switcher, between it and the amp so that it doesn't take up any switcher real estate?
That's correct on the output buffer. Regarding the input buffer, I have the ES-8 also here's how I do it: input buffer on the ES-8 is off. I put my fuzz in loop 1. Then I place the volume pedal loop from the ES-8 between loops 1 and 2 and I have it set up as ES-8 --> Volume Pedal --> input buffer --> ES-8. Therefore the input buffer comes AFTER the fuzz, BEFORE everything else, and doesn't take up a loop. :-) This has not yet been confirmed with any Chairmen of the Boards, but it seems like sound logic to me. Hope that helps.
I was curious to know exactly what the output impedance was from the standard EMG-81/85 set so I checked their site. The specs say 10k and that they drive up to 100ft without treble-loss. Should a quality input buffer still be used if the EMG is sending at 10k?
10K is high...wondering if there is another preamp in there to drive it.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes in my case with emg or passives I still use an always-on boost/od for dirt, and with cleans I always have some modulation on, and then thanks to you I have a tc bonified at the end of the front-end. So in my case the emg's 10k output is not really a problem. I just thought it was weird that we all have always assumed emgs are low impedance (which they are compared to passives), but emg's own specs of 10k output would not possibly deliver the results they tout, being that they say they can drive 100ft of cable without loss of highs.
My Bloody Valentine tone is famously Reverb into Fuzz which is amazing.
It can be done, just not typical.
If I have a great input driver (ie the Euna) should I also be turning on the buffers available sometime in my looper (ie PBC) or is that overkill, with too many buffers?
Input driver? No really neutral...it's unloaded compared to a guitar amp by 3X and the fact that it has EQ sorta disqualifies it as a buffer separately from the input impedance being so high and unloading the guitar pickups. If you insist on using the EUNA (and you might like the color, and that okay), I'd bypass the input buffer on the PBC and only use the output buffer.
Are saturnworks buffers good? I have two of their buffered splitters on one board… and then two output buffers as well (stereo outputs). How would I know if I have too many buffers?
I can't speak to them...haven't see the design.
So is there ever a reason to engage the always-on buffer on my HOF2 Reverb when it's last in the loop of my Multi-Watt Rectifier since it is a tube-buffered serial loop. My loop has about 30ft of cable total.
Yes, you should buffer the return, always.
Hello, may i ask your advice? I have a Zoom G3XN multi effects unit and im just wondering if you advise putting a buffer pedal before or after or maybe both or maybe none at all lol. I bought the TC Electronic Bonafide on your suggestion last year for my first prdalboard build but have since moved into the digital realm. It just made more sense for me since I only play covers and want to mimic many tones without a lot of toe tapping, and the Zoom sounds great into my Orange OR15 head. The ZoomG3XN has a input of 470k and output 10k. My 3 guitars have low output single coil Roswells in the T style. A Seymour Duncan Jb in the Strat and the PRS have their 85/15S buckers. All 3 have different output pickups. I would appreciate some of your amazing knowledge on this topic.
Thanks so much
J Van Gor
Buffer before, yes...and perhaps after as well depending on how long your cable is. These are not great specs.
I have a Morley 20/20 Wah volume last in my chain before going into the amp. Morley say that it contains a 'New 20/20 Buffer circuit' but I am having trouble finding out much else about it. Do you know if it is actually any good or should I think about adding a better buffer after it?
What are the specs...we provide the framework so you can assess yourself.
So if I have my wireless connection, the buffer is not necessary? Not even at the end of the chain? The truth is I don't want to make an expense that is not necessary.
Mason i am using strymons DIG ans Reverberator in my amps effects loop and I have a interface and did like youndid in ur videos Diy Pedalboard interface, do I still need to put a buffer or install a buffer in the interface I made?
You should have and input buffer and output buffer, and the DIG can be your buffer on the FX return to your FX Loop.
Just wanted to get some clarity on a comment made at the end of the episode… Are TL072/74 buffers not that neutral? I’ve found that a lot of the DIY buffer schematics online tend to utilize the TL072. Is there a better IC for this purpose or would you recommend a non-JFET circuit altogether?
For a buffer, that OPA is poor, not neutral and has many issues for transparency. Some people use these, however it's not preferable for a neutral guitar tone. There are many ways you can get a good buffer using an OPA, just nothing from the TL0 series IMO.
Fair enough! Appreciate the response. Do you have any alternate op-amp suggestions to try?
Great video as usual! I am currently, most of the time, in series into to the front of my amp. I replaced my aria after my fuzzes with the v3 route 66 for the buffer. My cleans sound awesome now. After watching this, I looked up the specs on the truetone pure tone. 1M>PT>50ohm. I was thinking of grabbing the stand alone pure tone for the end. @vertexeffects : Mason, I am curious if there is a reason that this buffer doesn't make your list? Since you push the Cs series power supplies from truetone. is there another reason besides impedance that their buffer doesn't make the list? Or is this a case of not ever using one? Thanks again for all use guys do! It's super helpful for us small timers who dont have the scratch to pay an expert to do it!
The buffer is on our list if you go to our buffer video links on our website for recommended pedals. For this video we mostly stuck with full buffer interfaces that provide the full buffering for the entire rig. If you got a True Tone you'd need several.
@@VertexEffectsInc I did not check the links, my bad, and thanks for replying! :)
Cross referencing multiple videos. Just watched Pete Thorn's "cables" and just built a replica of Eric Johnson's clinic board (Sweetwater What's On your Board) because, being an old guy, I already had the TC SCF, Zendrive 2, and Belle Epoch for years - results at end. Take aways from this video? What Mason said about differing effects loops (so true!) and something I ran into on my EJ replica - my pedals having sometimes wildly different input/output impedances and what does that do when they're strung together even in a "buffer sandwich" and also wondering about needing buffers in the effects loop as well and I think the answer is "likely yes". I like stereo but not isolation issues, so i tend to buy stereo effects return amps like the JC-120, Rocker 32, and yes it's an extreme outlier - my beloved Marshall MG250's - rather than front end of two amps or return only on whatever second amp. I also wonder if isolation is not an issue (or less likely) if you run into two identical amps, say two Ibanez TSA-15's, that are plugged into the same A/C outlet. I'm finding that almost always - stereo, mono, 4 or 5 cable, wet/dry, whatever - I cannot escape "breaking out" on a single board between front-of-amp pedals and effects loop pedals. Or, having two separate boards - effects loop and front-of-amp. Unless it's just two pedals in front of an amp - which soon becomes very tempting after all this. So, SO MUCH goes into board building! Now the EJ replica results? Just like it sounds on the Sweetwater video. Violin tone. 3D cleans. Except, wouldn't you know, I still suck at playing cascading 5's or ANY EJ in general but having the tones is priceless. Now, one final deep nerd thing - if you screenshot that video of Eric's clinic board, enlarge it, you will find a discrepancy. Eric describes the signal path in the video, and the pedals are physically lined up the way he describes the path. They are not - however - WIRED together that way. Look at the "Output" of the Dover Drive and look at the "Input" of the Zendrive sitting next to it. Finally, are we all insane? How much trouble is it to do even "simple" 4 cable? In your house, let alone cart it around and set it up someplace else. Best do it right the first time.
Thanks for sharing!
@@VertexEffectsInc TMI, I know, but boardz is complicated!
Thanks for all the info! I am using a Wampler dB+ V2 Buffer / Clean Boost, but have not found any info on the ratings, it seems to work well, Wampler makes nice pedals, anyone else have more info or use it?
Pedal builders aren't rig builders...no specs...not promising.
Mason, I had a question for you guys: I have a Cali 76 compressor at the beginning of my chain so I opted not to purchase an input buffer because play bass and leave it on all the time. Do you think I am suffering in my tone because I do not have a high-quality buffer at the beginning or is the Cali 76 always being on acting as a high-quality buffer?
Probably not, the input impedance is 1M so as long as that matches you bass amp you'll be ok.
@@VertexEffectsInc great thanks!
I love the buffer talk, i think if you are a tone chaser you need to value buffering as much you value things like diode types, or quality of delay repeats.
Absolutely, it's one of those things, like a foundation of your house, it's not sexy, you don't see it like a bathroom remodel or kitchen remodel, but if it's bad it compromising your entire house.
I’ve seen a few buffers with a tuner out. What is the point to having that? Can the tuner go after the input buffer with the effects or does that have an impact on the effects somehow?
So you can leave your tuner always on. You can make a tuner out of any input buffer by just adding a y-cable on the output. That’s exactly what’s happening inside of the buffer when there is an option for a tuner output built in.
Just to clarify your recommendation regarding a “4 cable” setup, for the effects loop is it best to put a buffer like the TC Bona Fide at the amp send to drive the cable to the board and then another Bona Fide after the last pedal to drive the cable back to the amp’s effects loop return? Since the Mesa High Wire isn’t currently available, what are your thoughts on the Empress Buffer+ as an alternative for the “front end” (guitar in and then out to amp)? Thanks
No, if your have a passive effects loop, you should get a specific buffer made for an effects loop, like Klienulator - a Dumbleator copy. If you have a buffered loop, you only need to buffer the return...the send will already have a buffer.
Bonafide, Mesa, and Empress aren't ideal for the effects loop because they can't alter the gain on the send or the level.
Ok. I have a Mesa Boogie Fillmore 50. I believe the loop is buffered, but I don’t know the details about the buffer on the send and if that will be enough. Would I put the Kleinulator at the amp for the loop send? I was asking about the Empress Buffer+ as a good alternative to the high wire for the front end portion of my board (guitar into Empress Buffer+, out to front end effects like OD, etc, back into Buffer+, then out to input of amp). You have recommended the High Wire a lot in the past, but those aren’t available currently, and the Empress seems to have the same specs. Thanks for clarifying about the loop and for all your help and info!
@@bross63 if the loop is buffered you'd only need a buffer after the last pedal before the return if the pedals wasn't already buffered and at 100 ohm output impedance.
My DI box has an output impedance of 1000 ohms. Is that high for a balanced output? Or is impedance different for balanced outputs?
Yes, typically 500 ohms or lower is normal.
@@VertexEffectsInc even if it’s an active DI? I assume what I’ll notice is less high end when it reaches the amp?
Hi Guys, thanks for looot of information:) it helps a lot. My pedalboard have 9 pedals, typical mono rig, in series, without fx loop. The first pedal is xotic super clean and the last one is xotic super sweet. What do you think about those two as buffer?
Thanks
Not great, look at the specs we suggest versus what those are. Secondly, buffers should have no character, they should be 1:1 with no exaggeration. When a pedal that's supposed to be a buffer is given an adjective to describe its character, like "Sweet" this is a bad sign.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks guys, I will work on it 🫡
I have been told not sure if its true but when going from your guitars pickups which are considered High impedance and using a Buffer pedal to convert it to low impedance that this strips away all the high end response rolling off the high frequencies. Low impedance sounds darker compared to high impedance is sparkle and glassy. Is this true about buffer pedals since buffer pedals outputs are low impedance this will roll off the high end and sounds darker?
No, a quality buffer will have no impact to the tone other than converting to low impedance.
@@VertexEffectsInc Even if the buffer pedal is transparent the low impedance will have a darker tone compared to high impedance is sparkle and glassy. The new fender amplifiers use low impedance Reverb sounds darker compared to the old fender amps used High Impedance Reverb which sound sparkle high end. I'm not sure why the newer fender amps are using low impedance reverb because it sounds very dark. I'm not sure why low impedance makes the frequency response sound dark while high impedance makes the frequency response sound sparkly, chimey, belltones. I'm not sure if this is a myth about low impedance compared to high impedance but even the frequency response is transparent it being low impedance will alter it to sound more darker?
I’ve had 2 of Mario’s of Axix Electronics since 2005 or so. I just found out he’s with Mesa now.one at guitar one at amp. Works great on my Dumble clone but too bright using EL84 Bonner Metropolis.having said that I’ve never fully understood buffering. It was said back then that his buffers added top end…
He’s independent again…he’s got buffers again which improve upon the original BS-2.
@@VertexEffectsInc oh wow tx for the update..i have been shopping for new buffers..the BS-2 have some nice little features tho.
His buffer pedals pages seemed to have been removed from the Mesa website...what co. name is he working under now? TX
@@VertexEffectsInc aha you did mention Axess TXS!
@@JohnFraserFindlay Axess Electronics...it's back.
I think all onboard active boost circuit in guitars like the Eric Clapton or Lincoln Brewster midrange booster circuit, EMG SPC, EMG EXG, Artec BCU Band Control Unit, BECOS Micro Booster, etc are all LOW Impedance outputs which causes problems with wah pedals, fuzz faces, etc. Early 90's Dunlop Rotovibes are low impedance Input. I'm not sure why they always use buffers in those onboard active boost circuits for guitars because it causes problems with certain guitar effects so you have to turn OFF the onboard active boosters for certain effects. I would like to bypass the buffers in those onboard active booster circuits to not have a buffer low impedance output. You should make a video lesson about various onboard active booster circuits and is vertex ever going to make an onboard active booster circuits?
Well...not really that low. I think the Clapton TBX Mid Boost is like 10K, not sure on the Lincoln one. Typically none are lower than 1K, even EMGs.
@@VertexEffectsInc All the specs for onboard midrange boosts and boosts inside guitars mostly say buffered output which they are claiming its low impedance. The problem I have found using these various types of onboard booster/buffers is that wah pedals, fuzz faces, fuzztone pedals, etc don't work correctly. The John Mayer PRS guitar has onboard booster buffer is what he used with the grateful dead bob weir band. Jerry Garcia used the Alembic preamp buffer which is considered low impedance. I'm not sure what is considered low impedance which I'm guessing 1K and lower than 1K? because most companies that make onboard preamp/buffers say that low impedance is 100K to 1K
@@VertexEffectsInc The onboard Clean boosters/mid booster in guitars DRIVE the guitar pedals differently like tube screamers, klon, fuzz face, wah. John Mayer used a jerry garcia clone onboard clean booster/buffer in his PRS guitar because it DRIVES the boss overdrive pedal that Jerry Garcia used in the 70's. If you get the alembic clean booster buffer onboard circuit it will DRIVE guitar pedals like tube screamer, boss overdrive, klon, fuzz, wah , differently because of the guitar output is buffered and at a different impedance. The buffer output changes not only the impedance value but also the current drive level that is driving the guitar pedals input so you have more current driving into the guitar pedal input stage. Which changes the reactance/adaptive response of the guitar pedal with the guitar pickups. Try to make a video about this because its overlooked when using various types of onboard boosters/mid booster inside guitars because of the buffer output changes guitars output impedance and current drive level.
@@VertexEffectsInc If you are playing the Eric Clapton guitar or Lincoln Brewster guitar using a fuzz face, wah, tube screamer, boss overdrive, klon pedal the onboard midbooster won't work correctly with these pedals and other certain pedals because there is a "Mismatch" in impedance from the onboard buffer to the guitar pedal. The guitar pedal input stage was design to see the single coil pickup impedance, Not the onboard output buffer so there is a Mismatch problem. Anyway to fix this mismatch problem?
@@VertexEffectsInc Buffers should have an "instrument level Ground Decoupler" circuit or transformer. The buffer circuit should have an instrument level ground decoupler to lift the ground on the output jack port.
Mason I bought the Mesa dual buffer and it’s great except when I put fuzzes in the chain. Basically makes the fuzz unusable. Any advice to fix this problem?
Put the Fuzz before the input buffer. This will be a problem with every buffer paired with a fuzz unless the buffer starts after the fuzz.
@@VertexEffectsInc sweet! So guitar into fuzz into buffer. Gotcha
Can you reamp into a fuzz pedal, given the inherent use of a buffer in this scenario?
Question: I recently found a MXR Custom Audio Electronics Buffer, with Hi Low Cut, +6 dB slider, and dual output. How would you rate it, and what applications would you suggest?
It is ok, but not as good as the Bonafide for example. If I remember correctly the MXR/CAE the output impedance is higher than 100 ohm. Mason will know though.
I use the MXR/CAE in my chain because of the possibilities you mentioned. But....I have the Bonafide first and last.
It's got a 1K output impedance...not so good. High Cut = not that neutral.
@@VertexEffectsInc could you build something like the CAE, but with a better buffer?
@@peterknicked you can do it DIY with our DIY buffer video, or get this: www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=vertex+buffer
@@VertexEffectsInc it seems like the Sweetwater site is down.
What do you guys think of the Emerson Concord buffer?
Our recommendations are listed.
Hi!
Currently running a Polytune 3 in buffer mode after my Fulltone 70 fuzz and I always have my Mercury 7 running at the end of my chain which has a 1Meg input (not sure on the output but my tone seems good)
I'm looking at maybe running a 2 amp setup in the future and I can get my head around the 4 cable method but this is the first time I've ever heard of 5 cable and not sure if it's for me. Google searches I've tried haven't brought up any 5 cable diagrams - can anyone point me to where I might find some?
Thank you kindly.
4 and 5 cable method are for amps with effects loop...sounds like you just want a stereo set up. If your Meris has a stereo output, that will buffer both left and right the same. You won't need to add anything there. Perhaps you'll want some isolation for the two amps to avoid a ground loop, but otherwise you should be OK.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the reply! Both amps will have an FX loop and I'm pretty much planning to have one for drive and the other with wet effects, so not totally WDW but a kind of approximation thought I will run it stereo occasionally with delays and chorus. I doubt that 5 cable will be something I'd actually do it was more for an education purpose as I like to check out things I've not heard of before. I think I understand it you basically bypass the pre-amp of one of the amps and just use both power stages (I could be wrong!). As a visual learner I was hoping to find a diagram.
On the ground isolation I'll more than likely add something from the excellent Lehle range to achieve that.
kindest
I hate buffers before my fuzz, stop type casting me Mason! :D
Where is this suggested?
@@VertexEffectsInc No where, just my name is Scott, lol.
Hee Grant. would you like to build a nightmare box for this situation with a switchable 2 way input for cable and wireless? 36:30
You can do a wireless defeat with one of our DIY diagrams if you wanna save money, no need to have both plugged in at the same time unless you're toggling in real time. Watch the Paul Jackson Jr. rig build if you want to see how to wire this feature in yourself.
I second the motion, because some of us want to switch guitars in real time, between songs, or in the worst cases, if a string breaks on one guitar, you can grab the other one, switch the input, and go
@@VertexEffectsInc ill have a look at that video. Ive been using a passive aby mini pedal for years to run my wireless and a cable as backup. It works as an input mute aswell.
What about the xotic super clean as an input buffer?
It's not really a buffer, the specs are poor. I think they intended it to be first however.
Does a buffer cure tone suck from a pedal? Mesa Highwire?
Ideally you make your pedals all true bypass to give the buffer the best bypassed signal to work with.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for the reply. So I’ll use a switcher so I have a nice clear path until I actually need a pedal. I have a gig rig quartermaster 4
Hey! My name is Scott and I have a T1M buffer after my Teese wah and fuzz.. 🤣🤣😂
Ha!
is 1 ohms for Input and 150 ohms for output an OK Buffer?
Yes, really the closer to 0 the better but reasonably anything below 200 ohms or so is fine.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the helpful info... :)
Hey Rig Doctor! what about CAT5 cable for 4CM amp setup, as opposed to regular cables and snake? Reliability/Tone/compromises?
Not designed for that. You can use some low impedance A/V cables in some cases that have individual coaxial cables in them but not CAT5
Anyone know the specs on the OBNE one, the EQ/buffer?
What’s that?
@@VertexEffectsInc Sorry, Old Blood Noise Endeavors. They sell an always on buffer that also has a switchable three band EQ. No specs that I've been able to find online, which obviously is a bit of a red flag, but I figured I'd see if anyone on these comments happened to have that info. I can't imagine it being preferable to something dedicated like yours or Goodwood's units, but I have a little secondary board so in theory it could work well for something like that.
Would have been great to get a full answer to my question but as usual i never do so just experimenting as so much contradictory advice over buffers & no one will answer 3 questions about my buffers on my board...cheers...
What are the questions??? I don't see them posed anywhere.
@@VertexEffectsInc ....it was a couple of times on other vids...i understand you are a busy guy,you've got a business as well as doing CZcams vids which i know from my own experience in the past is getting harder all the time & takes up valuable time...my question has been ,being mainly a bass player & taking your advice i put my buffered Polytune3 tuner after my Boss Limiter/Compressor into a MXR Thump pre-amp,true by-pass,but irrelevant as all pedals & DI box are permanently on whilst playing, lastly into a Shift Line Cab/Amp Bass ir & Sim DI box which manual says is 100 ohms output to both XLR and jack socket amp return....when using a bass amp the Polytune 3 is plugged into the amps tuner output and the tuner is replaced on my board with a standalone Bonafide buffer, works ok but can i get a better setup when using both the Polytune3 & standalone Bonafide Buffer on my pedal board ?,giving me 2 Bonafide buffers....ps..my Laney Digbeth Bass preamp,used when recording,manual says output is 880 ohms ?!?!...is this low enough impedence or should i put the Bonafide Buffer before it when using live or recording ?....any advice is greatly accepted as after40+ yrs this is my first pedal board...just used a compressor and bass valve amp pushed hard for years ,Ampeg SVT Pro 3 + 4 mostly...now gotta have a pedal board if no backline or stage monitor allowed,i don't like playing like this, i'm old school or just old but i prefer a mic & now a Warwick WA300 bass amp head & 2 × 15" Ashdown cabinets but now not always possible to use live so trying to get the best tone out of what i have when using only my pedal board...thank you
@@christopherstorrier5560 as for the buffers, I'd still put your Polytune with Bonafide first before your compressor limiter. It will be more effective at loading your bass pickups with what they should see and not get loaded down by the Boss pedal in correctly. I know this stuff is always on, but loading the bass correctly to start is more critical than the low output impedance to follow, especially if you'll use an output buffer at the end or have a product that already does 100ohm output impedance. I'm not sure why you would want to make the swap for the tuner output on the amp when in that situation...not sure how it advantages you and requires you change your pedalboard. You'd be better off repurposing the Bonafide buffer (stand alone) to put after your Laney (880 ohms sucks...remember the lower the output impedance the better. 0 is the goal, but reasonably 100-200 ohms is acceptable) to get the output impedance low and have it reserved for that location and just leave the tuner where it is normally, first in the chain.
@@VertexEffectsInc ...thanks for your reply.makes sense and you know better than me,i will just put the Polytune3 back on the board after Boss Limiter & use the Bonafide Buffer for the Laney Digbeth pre-amp as you suggest...much appreciated
What do you think about Euna and Oamp?
I think they're very well built, without question. Having been through one of the EUNA's (and I presume the OAMP is similar in this way) I can say that it was very thoughtfully designed and for those that want the specific functions it provides, I think it's fine. Looking at it from a buffer standpoint I think there are some drawbacks. First, it lacks practicality for a pedalboard application where I think the interface/buffer system is preferable not only to save space and consolidate buffers into one set of input/outputs but also to consolidate power and maximize your pedalboard real estate. Secondly, the EUNA to me is not really an input buffer as it has quite a lot of color, by design. It will change the sound of your guitar and won't sound as neutral as the guitar plugged into your amp. To me, that defeats the purpose of a buffer as they inherently should have no character, sound, or EQ other than totally neutral 1 to 1. With that said, the designer doesn't exactly characterize the EUNA as a buffer (so this may not be his intent) - but I'm answering this question for you as though I'm treating it as one for the purposes of the topic of the podcast. Furthermore, the specs on the EUNA is very unloaded as I recall, maybe 3-5M Ohm input impedance, and not that low on the output impedance, maybe 500-600 ohms or so. Most guitar amps are 1M - so that would be the ideal spec (for input impedance) to most closely match your guitar pickups to what they'd see being plugged into your amp. On the output impedance "0" ohms is ideal, but reasonably 100-200 ohms or so is fine. This is 5-6x higher than that, but as an input buffer with pedals following it, it might okay for this position if you like what it does to your sound, it just wont' be "neutral". As for the OAMP, the output buffer, the input impedance specs aren't so critical here as it's supposed to be dead last ideally, but the output impedance is also about 500-600 ohms, so same problem with driving longer lines of cable without introducing artifacts separately from it having EQs and things on it already designed to change the tone. I'm sure to certain individuals these might seem like cool features to have as "tone sweeteners" and having the FX Loop for a Fuzz or impedance sensitive device might be cool (but I'd just presume to put the fuzz before the buffer and you still have to hit a footswitch to turn your fuzz on whether it's in the loop of a ENUA or OAMP or before it). I also think the expense to have these as your input and output buffer puts you around $570 or so seems really high, unless you need these specific units, compared to high end buffers that offer more features, isolated outputs, and more whether it be from Goodwood, Xact Tone Solutions, LA Sound Design, or even us at Vertex. It also makes your buffering into multiple units with separate power and inputs/outputs which can require more specific routing and space on the board, which from a rig builder perspective isn't very practical. That's not to say these unites aren't well built or good sounding. I think they are, but to me that's an EQ pedal, not a buffer, and I think you should evaluate whether "neutral" is your X factor or if you fundamentally want to alter your guitar tone or exaggerate certain things about it to make it more pleasing to you (in which case the ENUA and OAMP could be good choices). Certainly the pedigree of players using some of these units, like John Mayer, is a good endorsement to have, however I suspect he's using them because he like the color an isn't going for totally neutral - which is totally legit. It's just not my methodology or approach.
@@VertexEffectsInc wow this was a great response! I respect that you care that much to essentially give a lesson to a comment
Hey Mason @vertexeffects, I order your buffered interface box through Sweetwater about 6 months ago. Any chance you might be able to build me one? I would like to finish this board sooner than later. Thank you for all your help. ~cheers John
You can order custom shop version through www.therigdr.com or the production versions are about a month out.
@@VertexEffectsInc cool! Thank you
If buffers are so important, why do we virtually never see them on Rig Rundowns? (I mean this sincerely, not critically. Note: I have a quality input and output buffer on my board)
I wonder if the buffers are there but just not talked about. It's there, under the board doing its thing, but they don't talk about it?
@@danielmiller2886 I've been wondering the same thing.. I've seen lots of pro boards without them .
Tell those wireless fuzz guys to wear their fuzz on their belt with a battery powering the fuzz before the wireless. 😂😂🤣😜. Jk
the Benson Germanium Fuzz and the Spaceman Effects Sputnik III aren’t impedance sensitive according to those companies. Those could be some options in all seriousness for those players too.
Yes...they're not as sensitive as some, however it's all a compromise...if you're wireless or using active pickups you have to be OK with not getting great fuzz tones like Hendrix. I also like the Boss FZ series stuff and the MXR Classic BC108 Fuzz for this applications.
What up mason. Something wierd happend i didnt know how to handle it. I may need some advice if next time it happens. Ight so i was going to get rid of my mxr smart gate pedal at guitar center. So i ended up going near closing hours at my near by guitar center. So here i go in they wanted to give me $50 for it. I said sure they wanted to test it first. Im like oky test it me knowing it works perfect turns and off. So the manager had his only employerin the store to test it out. While i was on the counter chatting with the manager. The employer says its not turning on. I was like wtf it turns on. I told him it should turn on. I go over there to see what was going on. He hooked it up from a voodoo lab 4 x 4 i believe. He tried different ac cables and nothing. It would not turm on. I had a feeling he put more voltage them what it supposed to take. So they would buy it do to not turning on. I went home upset and saw the pedal did not turn on again. Idk if there employers are trained? I also forgot to tell how much voltage it was supposed to take. I ended giving the pedal to my cuzzin. What can i do next time? In that situation thank you in advice
Sorry to hear that. Not sure if this pedal has voltage protection on it or not, this might be a better question to ask MXR/Dunlop through their customer serivce. The only thing the employee could have done is either 1) plugged it into 12VDC or 2) used a reverse polarity cable. Most pedals have protection against this, but some don't. It would be ideal to ask Dunlop customer serivce about this.
@@VertexEffectsInc okie dokie thank you so much
I do believe Josh Scott is not too crazy about buffi'n it.
Like power lifting?
@@VertexEffectsInc ooh, very clever!
thats depressing about wireless-as a front man on a crowded stage i need ot go that route and I hate them-becuz my ODs do sound diferent
Try using the Axess Electronics Un Buffer: axesselectronics.com/products/unz1-un-buffer
I mean... Scott Henderson has amazing tone tho
Where is that contested?
Ha! I thought that was Scott with the RC Booster who doesn't like buffers?
Oof, watch again, there will be a test. :)
Scott H. perhaps?
???
Scott Henderson. The guy who hates buffers…
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Easy does it
You're boring dude with your buffers....
Cool...good luck out there!