Who Are The Exvangelicals with Sarah McCammon
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- People who deconstruct are often accused of never believing in the first place, or of just wanting to sin. But those who deconstruct are often those who have been hurt the most by toxic teachings. Today Sarah McCammon joins us to talk about who are “ex-vangelicals”, and her own story of deconstruction. And then Keith and I talk about what it means to create a safe and just community that honors people’s fears, betrayals, and concerns.
It's Episode 239 of the Bare Marriage Podcast!
ABOUT SARAH MCCAMMON:
Find Sarah's book The Exvangelicals on Amazon: amzn.to/3xzOrcE
Follow Sarah on Substack: sarahmccammon.substack.com/
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THINGS MENTIONED IN THE PODCAST:
Our book She Deserves Better: amzn.to/4eCPOYT
The Great Sex Rescue Toolkit to help people understand why certain teachings hurt people
baremarriage.com/toolkit/
Marg Mowczko's site analyzing the biblical passages pertaining to women
margmowczko.com/
The saga of Robert Morris’ abuse, from Dee at Wartburg Watch who broke the story
thewartburgwatch.com/2024/06/...
Larry Linn’s Twitter thread about righteousness
/ 1798553772333191576
![Emotional and Spiritual Abuse Survivor Q&A [282]](/img/n.gif)
Dr. Ramini has some excellent videos on CZcams about healing from betrayal. The common lack of justice is documented as an impediment to healing and forgiveness. Our churches demand forgiveness without justice. It is a secondary trauma.
48:40 This explains so much. Evangelicals in the U.S. decry liberation theology as "Marxist" because their Bible translations lend themselves to an individualistic reading, but in Latin America, the heart of Christ for social justice is more easily seen in their translations of Scripture.
Justice is the joy set before Him that allows Him to despise the shame and bear the pain.
Great interview with Sarah.
Also loved the thirst for righteousness vs justice.
We can make faith and salvation very personal, whilst missing the call to community justice.
This leads to shame and condemnation for an individual seeking an abortion whilst refusing to consider proven evidence of abortion levels falling when clear sex ed inc consent and relationships ; and good access to contraception for all ages.
Heck the financial impact in US of continuing a pregnancy, regardless of the 'extra mouth to feed' is just another pressure when dealing with unwanted pregnancy.
But the focus is on individual sin, not the systemic issues that create situations where people are desperate.
Understanding it as justice (a community level matter) rather than righteousness (which can so easily be made personal and spiritual)
I think the underlying aspect of abortion specifically is that we have no “proof” (one way or another-be it Biblical or not) of when a human embryo becomes “souled”. Once a human is souled/sentient, most people agree that killing it outside extreme necessity (to save one’s own life or the life of another) is murder.
Pro-choice people choose to *believe* that a fetus has no soul/sentience until birth. (Actually, there seems to be a spectrum of belief when sentience begins among pro-choicers, ranging from 2nd trimester to birth.). Pro-choicers therefore have a foundational argument that abortion is not murder (at least, depending on stage of development).
Pro-life people choose to *believe* that human embryos are souled from conception. Pro-lifers therefore believe abortion is murder across the board.
I think this is why the line between justice and righteousness is murkey where abortion is concerned. If the pro-choices are correct, then it is about personal righteousness. If the pro-lifers are correct, it is a matter of justice for the most vulnerable. (I do wish more pro-lifers would acknowledge that those who are pregnant are also very vulnerable.)
I do wish we had a hard answer on when the soul is imbued. Sadly, without that answer, we’re all stumbling along trying to formulate our foundational beliefs based on what do know (or we think we know).
So I tried to reply yesterday but the YT censorship bots didn’t like my use of legal terms and hid my reply.
This is very frustrating as it inhibits constructive discourse.
But I will say this: while I agree that justice (public) vs righteousness (personal) are matters we need to unpack within the church, I believe the crux of the ab0rtion debate boils down to *two* beliefs: one side believes sentience (soul) is imbued at conception; the other side debates when sentience is imbued (there is a spectrum of belief on this side ranging from second trimester to after birth). Unfortunately, it is impossible to prove *either* side correct-scientifically *or* Biblically … though both insist their side is proved by “facts”, when in reality both sides are supported by biased interpretation of limited evidence-something that makes people very uncomfortable.
I don’t think we can be intellectually honest and say “I believe X to be true in a life-or-death circumstance, but if you don’t that’s fine by me” and also claim to love that person. Love and indifference cannot abide in the same house.
However, love IS self-sacrificial and acknowledges that it cannot control the other.
Basically, two things can be true at once. My personal belief is that ab0rtion is a morally complicated issue: I believe all life is deliberately created by God (yes, all life-not just human). I believe all humans at least are souled… and I also believe that at times ab0rtion is necessary to save the mother or even provide the only good outcome for her and the children (if any) she’s already had, because we live in a broken world.
I also believe the life sacrificed for her survival needs to be acknowledged as a tragic loss, not some “clump of cells” that has zero inherent value.
Obviously this is a very uncomfortable place to operate within, regardless of whether or not the person considering it is pro-life or pro-choice.
With classic pro-lifers, I often point out that innocent casualties are a hard reality of the “just” w@rs they support, too.
@@rivendells_shona how do you explain the massive percentage of fertilised eggs that never implant, or in the wrong place (ectopic - where embyro cannot survive and without intervention neither will mother). And then there are the post implantation totally natural miscarriages. (and how women in abortion banned etc areas fear being accused of trying to deliberately cause what had happened spontaneously)
If the joining of sperm and egg is the start of a soul then a huge percentage of God created souls are lost long before even an electrical trace of life.
I agree that no one can prove when sentience begins. The Jewish (OT) view was linked to the first breath. Linking to creation stories and other images of God breathing life into what was created from the dust /earth etc.
NT we have John the Baptist leaping in Elizabeth's womb when Mary visits. So there has been a tradition of soul coming with the 'quickening' ie when fist feel fetus moving, kicking etc.
Whatever the point of ensoulment is, the best way to reduce abortion is to reduce unwanted pregnancies. And there is evidence what would achieve that. But pro life leadership does not want to look at those options that are about community, support for policies that enable living wages, cover birth related medical care, medical care for children with disabilities so that parents given a hard prenatal diagnosis have options.
Availability of contraceptives and family planning. Decent sex ed that includes understanding consent and boundaries, what is a healthy relationship etc as well as safe sex and the plumbing. Rather than lack of information and shame.
If pro life campaigns supported these things then I might believe that they really meant pro life rather than pro birth.
@@helenr4300I never said *I* believed the soul begins at fertilization-I honestly don’t have a hard formed belief of when it begins. So I’m not sure why you’re putting it on me to explain why God allows early term miscarriages … though I would probably lean into the same reason He allows any other person to die in this broken world by way of anything other than another human’s hand. Consider all the newborns who die in earthquakes, and other natural disasters. Did He create them just to take a breath and then return to dust? It makes about as much sense; we just “accept” it because it’s more rare than miscarriage? Does quantity make a difference in value when we’re speaking of human souls?
Believe it or not, I’m asking this pragmatically and philosophically, because your guess is as good as mine. But for someone who has a strong *BELIEF* then, can they claim to be truly honest that they truly do believe something to be true if they only apply it to themselves and not others?
Basically, is truth absolute or is it relative? And who has the authority to say?
Again, I wish more people on both sides of the argument had the humility to say, “This is my belief and I vote accordingly; but I will acknowledge when I don’t have proof and I hope God (or the universe) will be merciful on me where I am wrong.”
Perhaps a model of us showing the mercy to others that we hope karma will eventually show us in our inevitable ignorance is what we should consider to balance our belief.
Again, I agree with you that the value of those pregnant are horribly reduced by most pro-life leadership relative to the value of those unborn, and that’s something thar desperately needs to be corrected.
I just also believe we have to acknowledge that we may be choosing between lives-and that this is sometimes necessary.
Nowhere did my statement apply to those who’ve miscarried or the horrific legislature in certain states that prevents those who’ve miscarried from having deceased embryos from being removed, which isn’t by medical definition ab0rtion (regardless of what lawmakers in those states try to say).
Keith, what is the location of righteousness like a rolling river. I love justice making things right.
Amos 5:24!
I don’t see anything wrong with the comment “I pray she let go of bitterness “ No matter what has been committed against her, she has to let go of bitterness before she can be restored. This is nothing to do with evangelicals; it is the word of God that says so.
I think it depends on when this is said and the attitude from which it is given. If someone close to you confides to you a deep, recent hurt inflicted by another person, and this is your response, it will be taken as invalidating. Also, wounds, especially ones given time and care, heal. Words like this tend to be salt rubbed harshly into still open, bleeding hurts and reopen them so the scars go deeper and the risk of infection (bitterness) runs higher. It doesn't remove the knife of betrayal, only twists it and embeds it further in. Compassion and love bind wounds and ease the sting that leads to bitterness. I understand that we want to say phrases like this because it seems like an easy fix to impossible problems. But when someone has a broken leg we do not tell them to "walk it off." we call 911. We hold their hand and tell them that they are being brave despite the fact that they have screamed and cried in pain. The bone mends on its own in time, so do wounded hearts. We just need to love on them while the Great Physician goes to work and does the healing. This is, I believe, the true calling of Christians. If he is the Great Physician, we are his nurses.
Gilbert, the thing is that to assume that the way that this woman heals is to let go of bitterness is to not understand the nature of trauma and PTSD. It's not about bitterness; it's about trauma. In addition, the first concern when you hear your pastor sexually assaulted a child over 100 times for 4 years should not be "wow, I hope she forgives", but rather "wow, I hope the church helps her get counseling and provides her with support and that she knows that she is cared for and loved." The fact that our go-to response is to hope she doesn't get bitter shows we have no idea of either healing or community.
🎯@@SheilaWrayGregoire