Very well said and explained. I agree with the emotional connection with the music. Sweet, rich, weight , smooth, timbre those are the attributes I listen for.
Yeah. This video has been suggested for days by CZcams and I didn't listen because I thought it would just be a "it's great but I'm a dealer for stuff that's almost as good for 1/10th the price." But he's right. Real Hifi Help channel on CZcams talks a lot about this type of thing. He's only in his mid 40s but has heard or owned more stereo gear then almost anyone will in their life. He explains his evolution as an audiophile. Today he hates dCS and Wilson and all that stuff. He believes that if you listen long enough (a month or so) your ear/brain connection will figure out what's going on to make the sound. He owned Wilson speakers back in the day and when he figured out what was doing what he couldn't stand them anymore. He helped my realize why I'd grown tired of my dCS rig and had given up on Audio. Now I own an Audio Note DAC 5 Signature and Meishu 300B integrated amplifier. And my copper interconnect sucked as well. I use silver now. Gigantic difference just with that. But most of the battle was just knowing why I'd lost my interest. Dealers want you confused and unsatisfied so you stay in the upgrade rat race forever. And I stopped listening to anything Jay says a long long time ago. I can't stand his stupid nonsense. Too bad money can't buy him a brain (though I suspect he's just doing it because he's becoming a dealer and wants to promote the addiction - which would mean he has no personal integrity if he can make money).
This video was so informative. I am really enjoying your channel, and I’m glad I started listening after I had seen other channels. You definitely bring it full circle.
Use to manage a high end store is SoCal. And I agree 💯 percent. Now my rig is Maggie's and I love the non fatiguing quality. Thank God for the non kiss-ass work you do, love it.😊
I've heard Maggie's are sweet, but can be lacking in Bass. I like RUSH, Led Zeppelin, and Stevie Ray Vaughan along with Lyle Lovett, Bryan Ferry, and Tony Bennett. In your opinion, would Wharfedale 4.4's run better with the Outlaw RR 2160 mkii or Cambridge Audio separates? I might use the system as an AV setup also. Thanks in advance.
I have heard the Wilson Alex V with McIntosh amps and Esoteric cd player. This is 2 steps up from mine. The synergy was there. I almost cried. Jay is doing what makes him happy. Jay is the best.
Yeah Jay, those were one of the sickest speakers Ive yet seen man...Compared to a $250K speaker that a guy we know sells I can see where the money goes in a Wilson compared to that other brand. .. Im still trying to hear Wilson to where I fall in love with the sound however.. Dont get me wrong, its "perfect" sound, but I dont connect with the music, I connect with the sonic presentation.
Absolutely spot on Mike! You're absolutely correct on the issues in reference to sound quality. As an example, while my vintage Sansui 5050 connected to my Klipsch Heresy III's sounds fantastic, it in no way has that clinical, totally clean sound that you are referring to - Iike you said, it all comes down to what you prefer.
20 something years ago I got my CD collection stollen, when I replaced them I promised myself to buy music that I enjoyed and forget the quality of the recording, Diana Krall and Patricia Barber where out of my life, what a relief. Obviously my speakers also had to go, but with the system I have now, I'm able to listen to most of my records with joy and it sounds darn good.
Yes, yes. I came to this by comparing to live grand piano in the same room and for me, for example Vinni Rossi tube integrated and Von Schweikert speakers give that liquid, organic with nuance and dynamics by not artificially accented or artificially clean. Well said Mikey!
You’re on a roll man, well said!! 👍👍 P.S. 100% correct it was appealing at first to be wowed by the laser sharp analytical speakers/systems , but after 30 plus years my system has to move me and I connect with it and that’s exactly what my system does now.
Mikey I love listening to your reviews, never have I learned so much watching and listening to you. Thank you and keep up the amazing work. We love you man and oh I have a girl who's just like the first example you gave lol😂
The thing that I have a really hard time with is that I'm a classically-trained trumpet player, and I an acutely aware of what it sounds like to be in different types of rooms with several different kinds of instruments. So because I'm familiar with what real instruments sound like up close, it's hard for me to listen to systems and recordings without that highly-analytical mindset. When it's done right, it's magical.
I thought you were going to say you can't stand audio gear at all. Try Audio Note gear. That's the only company that really knows what they're doing. There are things that can be measured and things that can't. Engineers believe that if it can't be measured it doesn't exist. Most gear is designed by engineers and these engineers are really proud of how great they are so they're even worse then a lousy engineer would be. Time coherence is just one thing that can't be measured and it's why Audio Note sticks with single ended tube amps with tube rectifiers and no feedback. They don't even use circuits that have integral feedback. A single note coming off a violin, for example, contains the fundamental note plus a spray of harmonics. When the note travels through electronics it gets delayed according to frequency and so the final result sounds different. There will even be what people confuse as detail because it's a specific sound they've never heard before. They think this is proof that this equipment is better. But it's actually a sound that should be part of the violin note in which case it would sound like a violin note. It's too complicated for the university educated big brains to figure out because they couldn't claim it's all about them if they did. Audio Note prices go up into the stratosphere but that's because in order to preserve as much sound quality as possible with zero feedback and while running the signal through input and output transformers, inter-stage transformers and rectifying the power with a choke, the parts quality needs to be silly high. They're Level 3 gear sounds really good though and is only expensive, not heart attack expensive like their Level 5 gear.
@bunsw2070 Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful feedback regarding Audionote products. How would you compare them with Constelation, Solution or Boulder?
This is everyone’s journey. Crazy neutral transparent etc to finally smoother more musical sound. Literally every persons journey. Some just travel the journey slower than others.. cough Jay cough 😂
It's the typical control theory before reaching steady state compared to what a person's ultimate desire is. You don't know what you don't like until you overshoot your target and have to reverse course a bit to get there. Most gears when we are start out are low in resolution and dynamics, so there's a general trend to reach for more of both, eventually you'll overshoot on those aspects to realize it could be too much of a good thing and then back off. Each of us though have different targets, so too warm for one is perfect for another, but the trajectory to reach that target is similar.
Mikey....what about TAD? Where you would you place them...more in the Wilson/Magico type of sound camp? Or different? If so, in what way? Would love to get your opinion on them...
Agreed, my priorities have shifted after years of being an audiophile. Towards rich, lush, saturated, "analog", smooth. Of course, I happily accept dynamics, detail and transparency. But at the end of the day, the rich complexity of the tone is what I'm after.
I COMPLETELY AGREE!!! The Wilson and Magico sound is so unnaturally clean, I feel like putting on my goggles and bunny suit and going into the silicon chip room where no dust. Zero dust. I WANT DUST!! The dust is where my ears live. Back in the day starting out, I was attracted to ESS speakers because they had a super clean top end with the new AMT tweeter. Now, I couldn’t stay in the room with them.. Keep on keeping on Mikey. Love your channel, and your content.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I’m using Gryphon Diablo 120 integrated with the DAC option. My music choices tend to lean towards electronic music blended with various styles eg hip hop, jazz, world, classical, or singer songwriter. But equally I love those styles on their own but usually at a lower tempo and with a sense of spaciousness. I love it when there is texture and an atmosphere you can sense around the instrument or integrated into the track. I know what you mean by the warmer sound where you can sit back and enjoy the music but for now it’s where I’m at and I’m just enjoying it. I don’t take it too seriously. BTW you have great taste in music and I felt like finally a reviewer who’s music I love.
Alaniss Morissette the singer said recently as a judge on American idol to a contestant that their voice was too polished meaning it was so clean and pure that the audience could not connect to the emotion of the voice. She suggested to dial back the voice to 70% at some points to hear the cracks and edges in the voice so that listeners could emotionally connect to the music. That sounds like what you are referring to as some speakers brands that are too perfect or clean with the sound that you lose the heart and soul of the singers voice and the performance.
Alanis Morissette likely thinks a jack hammer's sound is too smooth. Seriously, I have that hit album of hers and the sound quality is tosh. And her singing. My God! I never thought I'd say it but I wish she'd gone to the Leonard Cohen School of Real Good Singing. I have the next one after that and now that my system is better I realized even that one sounds bad. My God what's with Canadian singers. I don't mean to criticize you. Her voice is a pet peeve of mine. And the fact that she's alive and I know about it. How'd she get famous? Oh well. At least we still have Justin Bieber. Oh wait. He's got half frozen face from the jibby jab. Well, at least we still have Celine Dionne. Oh Wait. She's got full facial frozen face from the jibby jab. How about Nickelback? They have a new album. I've taken out a lone to get that. Seriously, I think OCD is trying to be nice. Maybe he doesn't feel he has an adequate scientific explanation of why they sound bad so he's trying to say they're too good. They're not too good. They're crap. And there are mountains of science to explain it. Real Hifi Help and Real World Audio explain it in detail. Especially the first one. He owned them himself and explains his evolution or maturation as an audiophile from beginning to end. He has two friends that own Level 5 Audio Note systems that he listens to regularly. He started at the beginning and arrived at the end. He knows and spends hours explaining it. And these guys claiming they're the best speakers they've ever heard are telling the truth. They have electronics that are they type of electronics you'd need for these speakers and they tried different speakers. I wonder if they ever heard an Ongaku Kensei and M9 Phono Signature? Just as a reference.
@@bunsw2070 To fine tune my reply about Alanis's advice, I was speaking specifically about autotuned over produced sounds, where they tease out the emotion! To tell the contestant to purposely sound worse not good guidance! Alanis's first LP is excellent!
Ho, I realy enjoyd your video, I can very much relate to what your saying. As for me, I have found my time maschine and emotinal transcender- The mighty TL2 loudspeaker, a design of Troels Gravesen of Denemark. All the best from Germany!
Great analysis, Mike. Just reminded me of when I had dinner some 30 years ago with a friend in San Francisco. He was dating Catherine Deneuve who I thought was one of the most beautiful women in the world. I'll save the details for a less public forum, but your take on Wilson/Magico/MSB reminded me of his thoughts on Catherine. I was still somewhat envious, but it was an experience I could easily live without.
Well they’re definitely the antithesis of say an Audio Note set-up. Or Mikey’s rig for that matter…Just a different head space and listening philosophy/perspective. That’s all it is.
I can relate to this. Sonic fireworks are distracting bringing the focus more towards the system than the music for the listener. Out of curiosity,how do you feel about Vivid audio and YG?
Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge on the subject. I agree very much with what you said. In general, I don't like a speaker that comes in parts and you have to start assembling and doing a million tweeks. I prefer the traditional and simple construction. A speaker made of a quality wooden box with several drivers. Connect and enjoy the sound
Mikey…100% you have taken us back to the days of HP of the Absolute Sound and JGH of Stereophile, were we are using live music as a reference. The most recent concert, I went to sounded nothing like the hyped up / spotlighted presentation of some systems that are highly regarded today. In todays CZcams reviewer environment, we compare equipment to equipment. That has its place, only when using live music as a reference. Best video yet.
Good one! I lived with various Magnepans from 1999 until last year when I sold my pair of 3.7i. My local Maggie dealer is also a Wilson dealer and the Wilson sound has always been too clinical for my tastes as you mentioned. However, the Wilson Sabrina is nothing like the rest of them. I have not pulled the trigger yet but....really tempted. they sound just the opposite of the rest of the Wilsons, effortless on any type of music.
If I may suggest bringing a pair home on loan to live with them for a few days (IF your nearby dealer will agree to that, naturally :-) before pulling the trigger . . . yes they may sound DIFFERENT from other Wilsons but in the long run, I believe you might end up missing the "no box sound" of your Maggies :-) Just saying . . . Wilsons, to me at least, are in the category of "amazing until they're not" after many hours of listening . . . I hope a several day try out with them will prove me wrong about this for your sake. Happy listening and good luck.
I'd suggest one of two things. Sell all your gear and leave audio all together (if I wasn't single I'd have done that myself long ago - I'm serious about this. I think most people would be far better off without this insane monkey on their back). Or sell all your gear and do a total rebuild with all Audio Note gear. You can build your own power cables using silver wire and according to the amperage requirement of each power cord (there's your money savings - by as much as possible used but knowing there are a lot of counterfeits out there).
@@bunsw2070 YEP . . . it's a vicious circle . . . the Audio mags review gear and hype it up so that the manufacturers buy more advertising space and the circle keeps on going and most people chase their audio tails for most of their lives LOL
Mikey, That's a good honest answer on what music should probably sound like. I bet you would like the old Marantz gear! My biggest regret was selling a J.R. Coherence preamp with new modules from Jeff. To bad we are always looking to improve on something that already sounds great. As far as speakers go try the Block Audio Shelf Blocks which I purchased to keep cost down and very glad I did. Question: have you ever heard the newer tape deck M 002 P from Ballfinger?
I went the other way, been audiophile for 20 years, started with more relax vantage equipments which slowly went to the more clean and analytical/transparent. I love it as I love listening to the mastering which is more what you listen to on a record/flac vs real life. Like he said it will never sound like real life. I appreciate the effort and art of putting all of this together
You got it Man, it's the difference between the well renowned and the really good 😉. More importantly, my rule of thumb is if I can hear the sound of the instrument over how it's being played, then it's not working for me. That's what I define as a 'Hi Fi Sound' no matter how good it sounds, the musicians play 2nd fiddle to the sound. But if I honest it what most people like when they listen on a superficial basis. 🤔
Well, for me, this is the best advert for Wilson and Magico because I want analytical sound, free of any coloration. This is BTW their goal, more so with the Magico.
Spoken like a newbie. Nothing wrong with that. See how long you remain in the analytical sound camp after the years go by. You'll end up with McIntosh and Sonus Faber
@@OCDHIFiGuy I must confess, I wouldn't mind Sonus Faber and McIntosh. They're speakers done right with the warmth and softness in mind that would melt even the harder ones. You're probably right, and i wish you'd be right about me ending up with Sonus Faber!
I Hear you perfectly , And in special after a certain experience and age , I do not care about perfection , I must engage with the music played by a system on a emotional level , The rest I do not care anymore .
Question for you Mikey, i don't know if you are a dire Straits fan or not but i completely understand where your coming from about systems that are too resolute however with out finding a good middle ground it can prevent the listener from missing details in the music case in point the Dire Straits song private investigations has 3 non musical effect sounds contained within it footsteps, someone breathing and a breaking glass when i listen to the song on headphones i hear all of these elements but when i listen to the same song on my stereo system i need to crank it up to about 95db to hear any of these effects however i normally only listen between 75-80db other than feeling that i may sometimes be missing out on some musical details i actually do really enjoy the sound of my system and i do connect emotionally with the music so ultimately i would like to put together a system were i would not lose the emotional connection but not miss out on any musical details so my question to you is what types of gear do you recommend to accomplish that goal...PS thanks for all the great content!😀
You are correct Mikey! I am Using the TAD CE-1 BE edition, combined with a monster Krell FPB-700cx amp, combined with a dCS Paganini and Master Clock etc, and the sound from the dCS makes the sound sounding very fast and correct, but is almost to correct as you saying
Ok Wilson Alexx-V factory set up sounds amazing with a triangle art tube preamp and a class A Krell i400 400watt power amp. Dude it’s soulful! That’s why Michael Fremer uses DartZeal that’s more musical and soulful on his Wilson’s
Great video Mikey! Musicality will trump hi-fi every time. If your feet are not moving or grooving then your system is not connecting with you. Rig check: Play Chuck Berry’s- Jonny B. Goode- if you are not doing a one minute groove across your living room floor then your rig has failed you or you need an upper.
Your description of the connection with the music is what I thought Krell lacked when I listened to it 30 years ago. Even Levinson was like that. It was very sterile. I never walked away from a demo wanting that equipment.
OMG what he is saying is absolutely true; many years (18) ago I was in SF and heard a system with top of the line KEF speakers, all McIntosh (was not a fan even then) & lowly Tributary cables; the music moved me to tears. I then went across the street and the system was top of the line B&W with Krell mono blocs & top of the line Tara cables. As I was listening I had a revelation I thought this system is throwing more musical information at me than I ever thought possible but try as I might I am not engaged. Martin Logan CLS II Z we’re my first love because there is no crossover like no crossover! When John Atkinson measured their 15A ESL he said he had never seen such a linear in room response. We have the 13A; yes they are transparent and quick but NOT clinical. Before buying we auditioned the Paradigm Persona 7F which got a great deal hype in the press; talk about sterile! We are amazed how the ML are all the qualities you expect from an electrostatic and still as you say “seduce” by being warm, drawing you in and thus engaging. We have been to shows and seen how easy it is to get initially infatuated with speakers because they hit you over the head; end of rant with my wife’s 3 favorite words & they are not I love you, they are you are right!😂
My only experience with Wilson was an afternoon with my Audio Matiere Majuscule integrated tube amp and the Cub 2. It nearly brought me to tears. I would say the "imperfection" of tubes was a match.
As I've said before, you have to match the speakers with amplification. Everything in the chain matters as well as set up and room treatments. I love my Magico A3's. Thanks to you Mikey, My A3's deliver the magical emotion you speak of. I can listen to my rig for hours at a time. However, it took multiple amps and preamps to get there. Magico isn't an easy brand to get right but when you do they're absolutely incredible! Not everyone has the patience to get there, some people give up before they find the right synergy. That, for sure, is a drawback of the brand. You speak of live music. I saw Steely Dan in Chicago last June. Snarky Puppy opened up for them. I had never heard the band before but In my opinion they sounded much better than Steely Dan. I streamed them on my rig the next day after the show, and since then, It was as if they were live in my listening room! Mikey you know I love ya, someday I want to come back for another visit and get more gear. Your reference rig is the best sounding rig I've heard. However when I heard the TAD speakers in your videos, to me they sounded dull and uninspiring. I didn't connect emotionally with them the way I did with your reference rig both in person and in your videos. You are also a digital guy and don't prefer vinyl. Good vinyl (set up and pressings) has more layers, emotion and warmth than digital. In my opinion, this was confirmed at your place when we did a vinyl versus digital shoot out. I thought my cheap little analog front end held it's own against your Goliath digital front end at a fraction of the cost. No question your digital was amazing but there were a couple of selections that I thought sounded better on the vinyl. Your analog tape killed both! If you add a superior analog front end to a synergistic rig like mine it will deliver the goods in spades!
To invest in vinyl because "some" records and pressings will sound better is a total waste of money, IMHO. I believe you are under the "Ether" of vinyl because the cool audio guys in your life live and die by it. It's a good thing for you guys to share in, you trade, he gives or sells you killer pressings, etc. So I get your attachment to it. It's woven in to your social life. I'd love to hear Magico sound great. I'm going to hear M3 on Saturday with Boulder and MSB. A half million dollar rig. Let's see how great it sounds. You already told me you are sore that I carry TAD after short dicking Magico, so I don't believe you thought they were dull and lifeless. I would not say that to others, or you'll come across as not knowing good sound. It's not "subjective" with TAD. It's overtly lifelike. Dull and lifeless is the absolute opposite of how they sound. If anything, they would be called forward. Watch Steve Guttenberg get all giddy over them and realize the speakers I have are on the cover of Stereophile this month celebrating their greatness... so it's not my imagination. So far, everyone who's heard them is floored. It's an industry breakthrough product. People that "don't like" them are suspect to me. There's a reason why but it absolutely isn't the sound... lol. Thanks for your feedback Davey.. I'll be listening for magical emotion as you say... I simply want connection to the music... perhaps it is amps... Maybe you ought to let others know your DAC is an Audioquest Dragonfly. A $300 DAC that fits in a memory stick and uses the USB 5V power supply off the host computer motherboard... there is no lower DAC performance than that. Yet you are willing to spend $3K on a cartridge.. so you are fully biased. No problem brother. Everyone has thier own juice. As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters.. !
I think both Wilson's and Magico sound best being driven by tube amps and pre amps. Perhaps because they sound less clinical when driven by tube gear. I've heard Wilsons at many levels in person over the past 25 years, and IMO Wilson's need tubes. I had not heard Magico's in person before Axpona 23. In the room where Alon Wolf was the Magico S3 was being driven by tubes. That room did not sound fatiguing after about 30 minutes of listening. I also spent almost an hour in the Magico M2 room being driven by solid state gear. I thought that room sounded great which it did, but when I went from there directly to the Gershman/VAC room I felt tension release from my upper body that I did not realize was there in the Magico M2 room. So I "felt" better listening in the Gershman/VAC room compared to the Magico M2 room even though the M2 room had a more detailed sound. Live music is not that ultra detailed. It's thick and big sounding, but the instruments in the back of the band are not as loud as the instruments in front. This is what I have strived to achieve in my own system for years.
My understanding is you have to own them and listen to them intently for hours everyday to figure them out. OCD is experienced so can make a quick assessment. I still think he's not right on target though. The reason they suck is for 3 reasons. Firstly, they have a ton of drivers that are all different and they each produce different sound signatures (you'll figure them out eventually and hate the speakers when you do). Second is that because there are so many drivers they cover narrow frequency bands and require high order crossovers for them to sharply cutoff the frequencies to each driver. This means the crossover is going to play a more prominent role in the sound and are going to destroy the efficiency of the speakers (Real World Audio has a video showing the true efficiency of one of the large Focals - it's really bad even though the published value claims they're really efficient). Third is that because of the poor efficiency you need powerful amps. Any company making tube amps that makes a powerful amp (VAC, I'm looking at you) has rocks for brains and is likely deaf. If you want a tube amp (and you do) figure out how you can live with 25 watts max. All you need are speakers that are efficient. You want solid state as far away from your stereo as possible. Anyone who advises otherwise is deaf or has a crap system and doesn't know it. Or you can leave audio all together. Or spend all your money forever trying to get your system to sound satisfying. That last one is what they want. I'm old. I remember all the crap Stereophile was raving about that is now generally considered bad sounding or is totally forgotten. Remember Lamm? Remember Balanced Audio Technology? Remember Sonic Frontiers? Remember Halcro? Halcro were these mega dollar solid state amps that had more feedback then God to achieve previously unheard low levels of harmonic distortion. They loved them. The only problem was they sounded really hard and thin. Just like you'd expect from a solid state amp with as much feedback as could possibly be applied. They likely were excellent sonic paint removers though. If you have to have solid state just stay modest and live your life. Get married and have a family or something. Do anything but don't go nuts with audio gear. Maybe become a degenerate gambler instead. That makes a lot more sense then chasing the impossible with solid state electronics designed by engineering big brains. The dealers will love you but you'll wish you'd just lost it all in Vegas. Maybe take up Russian Roulette as a pass time. That is even smarter. Or join the Ukraine army and ask to be taken to the front lines. Or take up Fentanyl. Anything but "cutting edge" solid state high end audio (and most of the tube gear is junk as well).
@@bunsw2070 There are a few tube amp companies that make high powered amps (more than 300 watts per channel) other than VAC, and ie Manley, VTL. What do you believe is the problem with high watt tube amps? I will have to admit that I heard a Phasemation tube amp at Axpona that was in the below 20watts per channel that did sound amazing. It was driving speakers that were 92 db sensivity with no problem. The amps were still not cheap, at 30k per pair. BTW I'm old too, lol.
I totally understand what you're saying. Sometimes you start inching down that "more detail" path without realizing you're doing it. Before you know it, you've gone too far and what you end up with are a bunch of individual sounds, not music.
Your take on all things HI-FI saves your subs thousands of listening hours evaluating gear and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Appreciate the effort!
What if you combine one of these revealing speakers with a warm, lush tube amp and warm, lush pure analog records and tapes? Does the balance of that work for you? (Your analogies to women and video are spot on.)
Completely agree - very dynamic and big on “WOW factor” but lacks musicality and emotional engagement. The kind of stereo business that carries that kind of equipment treats their customers like they’ve walked into a fine jewelry store. And the kind of customers that go there have more money than they know what to do with and are looking for high-status brands. Oh, for those customers who insist on tube electronics, they also carry Acoustic Research. 🤑 The total antithesis of the customer who loves music and is looking for a low-powered SET amp and tube preamp (or integrated SET amp) paired with good high-efficiency speakers.
At Axpona 2023 in many of the $$$$$ systems, I agree that the sound I was listening to was trying to woo me, but to me it was not a true real musical experience and did not draw me into the music on an emotional level of enjoyment or "goosebumps". In many of these high end systems, the sound has an unnatural feeling of too much airiness or what you call the HiFi sound. I know what your trying to say Mikey and I agree with you, but its very difficult to describe. Digressing back to the '70s, my first speakers were the ESS Heil AMT1s, the vocals through the Air Motion Transformers were exceptional in realism making you believe Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, Linda Ronstadt, Johnny Cash, Nat King Cole, Mick Jagger, etc. were in my room singing to me! Some of the old speakers in my humble opinion are just as good or better than many of the new speakers in musicality. Mikey, you're right the analogy about the perfect beautiful woman is spot on!
Hi Mikey check your email pictures of my car are there. 1st thumbs up on this video lol. I wonder how a Dac like your MPD8 Mikey would sound with a pair of Wilsons? Would there be that perfect balance between what you're describing?
I come late to the party but U agree with every word .I was a wilson guy for 25 years .One day I realised that I always listen too the same type of music and that music is being dictate to me by the speakers. I switched to BW801 and realised that they are way more musical .not as accurate not as analytical but it felt right to me .
Mikey, Thanks for that well articulated opinion. I listened to one of those analytical rigs at a HiFi store. I said, “That was the most impressive thing I have ever heard, please turn it off”.
Heard and had Wilsons and Focals, couldn't disagree with you more. My pairings have been superb and musical. And to go against the grain here, i've moved on from relaxed speakers to ones that are more accurate, and faster. And to add, i listen more than ever with my Focals. And i never did with past speakers. I've been in this game for over 35 years.
@@scarabeo500gt It's really matter of taste. I heard the kanta 2 and loved them but then I heard the sf olympica III and thought well not my taste but wished the Kantas were a little bit more like the OLympicas in musicality. So I want something in between.
Everyone has there own opinion about what sounds good. That's what makes the hobby fun, because there is no one right answer! For Jay, what I can gather is that he likes a clear, cleaner robust sound. His Wilson's have never been properly set up by a Wilson rep, makes a big difference no matter the expertise you think you have. I own a pair of Wilson Sasha wp"s. I love them! In short they play what you put through them and can play any type of music. They are some diva's though, in terms of set up and moving & proper room sizing since sound stage is huge. Also EXTREMELY long break in period! And they will over power a room, so can go smaller. Once a Wilson person sets them properly you don't dare touch! Once properly set up you don't need to be in the sweet spot to enjoy. If your front end allows, you will hear, details and sounds fully developed you never heard before! You'll rediscover (especially older recordings) your favorites with new understanding all over again! That bing now becomes a triangle, or maybe two voice where you thought it was one (shadow back up singer). They will reproduce exactly what you feed them!
No, that isn't what makes the hobby fun. Like most things in life we need to learn from those who are experienced and know what they're talking about because they've grown through all the stages until they finally got to the end (I don't mean me). Monkey box speakers will drive everyone who isn't deaf, half way up the wall. Michael Fremer is a really likeable guy but the fact he has Wilson speakers makes me wonder about him. You are absolutely correct that some people like a particular sound. But that's different. Those people at least know that what they like sounds peculiar. But here we're talking about what speaker to buy which means how do you build a system. Monkey coffin speakers and high powered solid state? Single ended tube amps with high efficiency speakers? You can't mix them. And yes, those are only the two largest categories. I think we've all wonder for years why different people perceive sound differently. Are they deaf or do they just not care or are they psychologically twisted and enjoy spending huge sums of money for crap sound? The only material explanation I've found is that there are about six different types of ear canal shapes that are most common. That would explain a lot. But it doesn't explain everything and there are those times where a life long tin ear makes a remark about the sound of the stereo where you think they actually can hear. It's the closest thing to an unsolvable problem I've ever encountered. The only solution I've found is to find a person who knows and do what they say. That person isn't anywhere here. Or anywhere at Stereophile or Absolute Sound.
@@bunsw2070 There is no absolute standard for what sounds good. We all perceive sound differently, with different ranges of hearing. Really, the room dictates, (imo) what direction you should go. In electrical work, there's the standard which is code. If it ain't code its wrong. My Wilsons have given me what I wanted and more. So now I'm down sizing my home, Wilsons will prolly go, too large for listening room. For me, its like the NCAA b-ball tournament. Going to start from scratch and let my ears decide, I'll see what the experts have to say but not let them decide for me. I trust my ears.
I agree, in my past I had well to do friends with amazing systems - lyngdorf -oracle - no dacs ( I'm old) the systems were absolutely amazing but I like a tiny bit of warmth and what I call power - I don't mean watts .. I know the biz when I hear it - searing crystal diamond precision is sexy but its not me either .
I have owned many speakers over 40 years with my system. I don’t get into looks as much as sound. I prefer real sound that sounds like my instruments and close my eyes and feel I am in the room recorded sitting close to stage. I switched back to Tube amp from SS after a year with SS & tube preamp. My system is now to me lots more musical and flowing as live in room. Just Enjoy the Music not the gear as much! Blessings my Audio friend. Larry
Mikey, I started watching your channel when you were obsessed with taking your Maggies as far as they could go, and it was quite a trip. Whether I've simply missed some of your content or whatever, I've yet to hear your opinion of the Martin Logan hybrid 'stats, especially the more expensive models. The practical part of me says 'what use is a speaker that demands the listener sit in exactly the right spot, and feed it gobs of power, in 2023 ?' but audiophiles are nothing if not masochists. Visually, they definitely fit into your 'Type A' audiophile category - function over bragging rights - but I'd be interested in your thoughts. Thanks in advance. Edit : forgot to add that they also reportedly treat poor mixes with contempt - looks like I can kiss my Halsey collection goodbye ;)
Hi Arthur, I never liked Electrostatic technology for myself. The idea of AC power and big power supplies in my speaker kills it for me. I don't like the IDEA before I even listen. Then when I listen, they have killer mids but lack on highs and deep lows for me. I guess ML adds a dynamic woofer but it's just not my cup of tea.. I think the big ones are supposed to be great and they look cool, but not my Jam.
A Wilson or Magico with a tube pre-amp and solid state amp is the solution for those speakers. There are even some integrated amps (like the McIntosh MA12000) with a tube pre-amp stage and solid state power output stage. I have noticed that 3 different reviewers at Absolute Sound have an Audio Research pre-amp and solid-state power amp like Boulder as their reference electronic components.
EXACTLY !! Do you think it's just a coincidence that they use ARC ??? Lol. They are given "extended loans" of that gear by the biggest advertisers. Hello !! 👋
@@OCDHIFiGuy There are a lot of companies that give them extended loaner equipment, but I noticed 3 different reviewers at Absolute Sound have ARC pre-amps. Are all of those ARC loans? I doubt it, but even if they are all loans they could use other loaned pre-amps from other companies. Of course, an ARC Reference pre-amp cost is out of the reach of most persons, but there are other tube-preamp an solid-state amp combos that are much more affordable.
Sometimes expensive hi-fi gear can be like listening to the architect from the matrix, very accurate descriptions but a little souless, as opposed to a charismatic speaker explaining the same story, not quite as informative but really enjoyable as some non-standard phrases or voice inflections were used, making you laugh or cry along the way.
Yes, you can. TAD is one of those brands I always wanted to listen too but never had the chance too, cause they’re so expensive. Probably the most expensive Japanese speaker brand is TAD. Can characterise on how they actually sound Mike, or maybe have them on your channel one day? Love your pure honesty on this channel, we need more people like you in this snake oil infested audiophile industry! Thank you Mike!
Now Jay will be selling his speakers, and getting your TAD monitors! I have a friend with a system you are describing, all Class D amps for each 4 way driver. First 30 min. I'm amazed after that my ears are not happy or relaxed, there seems to be a sense of urgency to nowhere!
From the heart Mike, appreciate your view much! I’ll get your points, but for most people they need some help. I wanted to say this, but you already noticed yourself. :)
A loto f truth spoken here. The last time I heard Wilsons was at FLAX 2019. The impression I got was it was very spectacular, especialy with the bass and treble. It reminded me a bit of when I was in car audio in the 90s. Very clean, dynamic, lots of bass & treble, but not natural sounding.
Very well said and explained. I agree with the emotional connection with the music. Sweet, rich, weight , smooth, timbre those are the attributes I listen for.
Arguably this is the best, truthful, sincere analysis of the music systems I have ever heard. Congratulations!
Yeah. This video has been suggested for days by CZcams and I didn't listen because I thought it would just be a "it's great but I'm a dealer for stuff that's almost as good for 1/10th the price." But he's right.
Real Hifi Help channel on CZcams talks a lot about this type of thing. He's only in his mid 40s but has heard or owned more stereo gear then almost anyone will in their life. He explains his evolution as an audiophile. Today he hates dCS and Wilson and all that stuff. He believes that if you listen long enough (a month or so) your ear/brain connection will figure out what's going on to make the sound. He owned Wilson speakers back in the day and when he figured out what was doing what he couldn't stand them anymore. He helped my realize why I'd grown tired of my dCS rig and had given up on Audio. Now I own an Audio Note DAC 5 Signature and Meishu 300B integrated amplifier. And my copper interconnect sucked as well. I use silver now. Gigantic difference just with that.
But most of the battle was just knowing why I'd lost my interest. Dealers want you confused and unsatisfied so you stay in the upgrade rat race forever. And I stopped listening to anything Jay says a long long time ago. I can't stand his stupid nonsense. Too bad money can't buy him a brain (though I suspect he's just doing it because he's becoming a dealer and wants to promote the addiction - which would mean he has no personal integrity if he can make money).
This video was so informative. I am really enjoying your channel, and I’m glad I started listening after I had seen other channels. You definitely bring it full circle.
Last week, my girlfriend said to me " You get rid of the Klipschorn or I leave" So, as a gentleman, I called a cab for her.
LOL, a true Gentleman.... ..
😂
I would have called a really big cab and shoved both of them in 🥳
Love it
That was kind, I hate when someone draws that kind of line
Great video Mike. It is frustrating to encounter people dedicated to ignoring what you say and only hear what they want.
I found your assessment and explanation to be very articulate and clear. Appreciate it. Thanks
Use to manage a high end store is SoCal. And I agree 💯 percent.
Now my rig is Maggie's and I love the non fatiguing quality. Thank God for the non kiss-ass work you do, love it.😊
20.7s & Rel Carbon Specials
JLA cr-1 active crossover
Coda Ts v3 800w@4ohms
I've heard Maggie's are sweet, but can be lacking in Bass.
I like RUSH, Led Zeppelin, and Stevie Ray Vaughan along with Lyle Lovett, Bryan Ferry, and Tony Bennett.
In your opinion, would Wharfedale 4.4's run better with the Outlaw RR 2160 mkii or Cambridge Audio separates?
I might use the system as an AV setup also.
Thanks in advance.
Whoa... he complimented my Wilsons XVX....WOWWWWW
@Scott Pearl they were harsh as HELL
I have heard the Wilson Alex V with McIntosh amps and Esoteric cd player. This is 2 steps up from mine. The synergy was there. I almost cried. Jay is doing what makes him happy. Jay is the best.
Jay, your speakers can be dialed to anyone's taste with amps and DACs.
I know what I heard and it was there.
Yeah Jay, those were one of the sickest speakers Ive yet seen man...Compared to a $250K speaker that a guy we know sells I can see where the money goes in a Wilson compared to that other brand. .. Im still trying to hear Wilson to where I fall in love with the sound however.. Dont get me wrong, its "perfect" sound, but I dont connect with the music, I connect with the sonic presentation.
„high maintenance type of woman“... mikey, you made my day! 🤣🤣🤣
True though, right ?
Absolutely spot on Mike! You're absolutely correct on the issues in reference to sound quality. As an example, while my vintage Sansui 5050 connected to my Klipsch Heresy III's sounds fantastic, it in no way has that clinical, totally clean sound that you are referring to - Iike you said, it all comes down to what you prefer.
20 something years ago I got my CD collection stollen, when I replaced them I promised myself to buy music that I enjoyed and forget the quality of the recording, Diana Krall and Patricia Barber where out of my life, what a relief. Obviously my speakers also had to go, but with the system I have now, I'm able to listen to most of my records with joy and it sounds darn good.
When I go to a live classical concert, I often close my eyes to dive deeper in the MUSIC
Yes, yes. I came to this by comparing to live grand piano in the same room and for me, for example Vinni Rossi tube integrated and Von Schweikert speakers give that liquid, organic with nuance and dynamics by not artificially accented or artificially clean. Well said Mikey!
There it is Joe.... ;-)
Great explanation of where you’re coming from with your general critique!
Thanks Shawn..
You’re on a roll man, well said!! 👍👍
P.S. 100% correct it was appealing at first to be wowed by the laser sharp analytical speakers/systems , but after 30 plus years my system has to move me and I connect with it and that’s exactly what my system does now.
Mikey I love listening to your reviews, never have I learned so much watching and listening to you. Thank you and keep up the amazing work. We love you man and oh I have a girl who's just like the first example you gave lol😂
Thanks Man, I appreciate the good words..... and uh.... Ride em Cowboy !!
The thing that I have a really hard time with is that I'm a classically-trained trumpet player, and I an acutely aware of what it sounds like to be in different types of rooms with several different kinds of instruments. So because I'm familiar with what real instruments sound like up close, it's hard for me to listen to systems and recordings without that highly-analytical mindset. When it's done right, it's magical.
I thought you were going to say you can't stand audio gear at all. Try Audio Note gear. That's the only company that really knows what they're doing. There are things that can be measured and things that can't. Engineers believe that if it can't be measured it doesn't exist. Most gear is designed by engineers and these engineers are really proud of how great they are so they're even worse then a lousy engineer would be.
Time coherence is just one thing that can't be measured and it's why Audio Note sticks with single ended tube amps with tube rectifiers and no feedback. They don't even use circuits that have integral feedback. A single note coming off a violin, for example, contains the fundamental note plus a spray of harmonics. When the note travels through electronics it gets delayed according to frequency and so the final result sounds different. There will even be what people confuse as detail because it's a specific sound they've never heard before. They think this is proof that this equipment is better. But it's actually a sound that should be part of the violin note in which case it would sound like a violin note. It's too complicated for the university educated big brains to figure out because they couldn't claim it's all about them if they did.
Audio Note prices go up into the stratosphere but that's because in order to preserve as much sound quality as possible with zero feedback and while running the signal through input and output transformers, inter-stage transformers and rectifying the power with a choke, the parts quality needs to be silly high. They're Level 3 gear sounds really good though and is only expensive, not heart attack expensive like their Level 5 gear.
@bunsw2070 Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful feedback regarding Audionote products. How would you compare them with Constelation, Solution or Boulder?
Try and have a listen to Dunlavy SC-V speakers. No longer made, but still around. You may like them.
@@bunsw2070
Whenever you say, some company is the only company that knows what they’re doing you lose all credibility clown.
Absolutely Mikey, totally agree, love your vids📢📢
Thanks Man !
This is everyone’s journey. Crazy neutral transparent etc to finally smoother more musical sound. Literally every persons journey. Some just travel the journey slower than others.. cough Jay cough 😂
Could be, and nothing wrong with the journey, right ? We are all eventually after the same thing...
It's the typical control theory before reaching steady state compared to what a person's ultimate desire is. You don't know what you don't like until you overshoot your target and have to reverse course a bit to get there. Most gears when we are start out are low in resolution and dynamics, so there's a general trend to reach for more of both, eventually you'll overshoot on those aspects to realize it could be too much of a good thing and then back off. Each of us though have different targets, so too warm for one is perfect for another, but the trajectory to reach that target is similar.
Love your videos your so honest about everything if I could afford it I would definitely have you build me a rig from ground up thanks mike
Mikey....what about TAD? Where you would you place them...more in the Wilson/Magico type of sound camp? Or different? If so, in what way? Would love to get your opinion on them...
Agreed, my priorities have shifted after years of being an audiophile. Towards rich, lush, saturated, "analog", smooth. Of course, I happily accept dynamics, detail and transparency. But at the end of the day, the rich complexity of the tone is what I'm after.
spttin straight poetry today with these analogies. so much wisdom transferred
Thanks Mikey, you nailed it!
I COMPLETELY AGREE!!! The Wilson and Magico sound is so unnaturally clean, I feel like putting on my goggles and bunny suit and going into the silicon chip room where no dust. Zero dust. I WANT DUST!! The dust is where my ears live. Back in the day starting out, I was attracted to ESS speakers because they had a super clean top end with the new AMT tweeter. Now, I couldn’t stay in the room with them.. Keep on keeping on Mikey. Love your channel, and your content.
Thanks Brother Bunny !!
Great commentary and experience. Maybe I’ll get there one day but for now I love the psychedelic experience of Wilson.
What music are you playing ? Amps and DAC are ?? Maybe I can get it one day ...
@@OCDHIFiGuy I’m using Gryphon Diablo 120 integrated with the DAC option. My music choices tend to lean towards electronic music blended with various styles eg hip hop, jazz, world, classical, or singer songwriter. But equally I love those styles on their own but usually at a lower tempo and with a sense of spaciousness. I love it when there is texture and an atmosphere you can sense around the instrument or integrated into the track.
I know what you mean by the warmer sound where you can sit back and enjoy the music but for now it’s where I’m at and I’m just enjoying it. I don’t take it too seriously.
BTW you have great taste in music and I felt like finally a reviewer who’s music I love.
Alaniss Morissette the singer said recently as a judge on American idol to a contestant that their voice was too polished meaning it was so clean and pure that the audience could not connect to the emotion of the voice. She suggested to dial back the voice to 70% at some points to hear the cracks and edges in the voice so that listeners could emotionally connect to the music. That sounds like what you are referring to as some speakers brands that are too perfect or clean with the sound that you lose the heart and soul of the singers voice and the performance.
I saw that, very true. It’s what makes older recordings so nice.
Alanis Morissette likely thinks a jack hammer's sound is too smooth. Seriously, I have that hit album of hers and the sound quality is tosh. And her singing. My God! I never thought I'd say it but I wish she'd gone to the Leonard Cohen School of Real Good Singing. I have the next one after that and now that my system is better I realized even that one sounds bad. My God what's with Canadian singers.
I don't mean to criticize you. Her voice is a pet peeve of mine. And the fact that she's alive and I know about it. How'd she get famous? Oh well. At least we still have Justin Bieber. Oh wait. He's got half frozen face from the jibby jab. Well, at least we still have Celine Dionne. Oh Wait. She's got full facial frozen face from the jibby jab. How about Nickelback? They have a new album. I've taken out a lone to get that.
Seriously, I think OCD is trying to be nice. Maybe he doesn't feel he has an adequate scientific explanation of why they sound bad so he's trying to say they're too good. They're not too good. They're crap. And there are mountains of science to explain it. Real Hifi Help and Real World Audio explain it in detail. Especially the first one. He owned them himself and explains his evolution or maturation as an audiophile from beginning to end. He has two friends that own Level 5 Audio Note systems that he listens to regularly. He started at the beginning and arrived at the end. He knows and spends hours explaining it.
And these guys claiming they're the best speakers they've ever heard are telling the truth. They have electronics that are they type of electronics you'd need for these speakers and they tried different speakers. I wonder if they ever heard an Ongaku Kensei and M9 Phono Signature? Just as a reference.
@@bunsw2070 To fine tune my reply about Alanis's advice, I was speaking specifically about autotuned over produced sounds, where they tease out the emotion! To tell the contestant to purposely sound worse not good guidance! Alanis's first LP is excellent!
Mikey any thoughts on Oswald Mill Audio horn speakers / Amps ?
But what if you pair those with a playback designs Dac and Amp?
Ho, I realy enjoyd your video, I can very much relate to what your saying. As for me, I have found my time maschine and emotinal transcender- The mighty TL2 loudspeaker, a design of Troels Gravesen of Denemark. All the best from Germany!
Hey Mike. Can u do a review of the very classic B&W Matrix 800 speakers ? I’d love to hear what u say about them.
Great analysis, Mike. Just reminded me of when I had dinner some 30 years ago with a friend in San Francisco. He was dating Catherine Deneuve who I thought was one of the most beautiful women in the world. I'll save the details for a less public forum, but your take on Wilson/Magico/MSB reminded me of his thoughts on Catherine. I was still somewhat envious, but it was an experience I could easily live without.
Well they’re definitely the antithesis of say an Audio Note set-up. Or Mikey’s rig for that matter…Just a different head space and listening philosophy/perspective. That’s all it is.
Absolutely....
I can relate to this. Sonic fireworks are distracting bringing the focus more towards the system than the music for the listener. Out of curiosity,how do you feel about Vivid audio and YG?
Hey Mikey,
From a 10 year customer, where do the AGD Audions and Tempo Di Gans fit into the hierarchy of musical sounding versus clinical amps?
So what products, brands, equipment are you listening to that connects you with the music?
you also have fun stuff, like the JBL L100 reissue; great reggae speaker; kudos too-nice video
Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge on the subject. I agree very much with what you said. In general, I don't like a speaker that comes in parts and you have to start assembling and doing a million tweeks. I prefer the traditional and simple construction. A speaker made of a quality wooden box with several drivers. Connect and enjoy the sound
Great video Mikey!
Great analogies and description of "HiFi" sounding rigs, that initially grab your attention, but wear thin in the long run, for me at least.
Hi Mikey,
What's your take on Lamm amplifiers?
What do you think of Devore O/96 and Audio Note speakers along with PureAudio Project open baffle speakers?
I like PAP speakers. Don't know about the others..
Mikey…100% you have taken us back to the days of HP of the Absolute Sound and JGH of Stereophile, were we are using live music as a reference. The most recent concert, I went to sounded nothing like the hyped up / spotlighted presentation of some systems that are highly regarded today. In todays CZcams reviewer environment, we compare equipment to equipment. That has its place, only when using live music as a reference. Best video yet.
Thanks Stephen..
so what to do to make speaker sound less perfect? distort? horns? slow membranes?
Good one! I lived with various Magnepans from 1999 until last year when I sold my pair of 3.7i. My local Maggie dealer is also a Wilson dealer and the Wilson sound has always been too clinical for my tastes as you mentioned. However, the Wilson Sabrina is nothing like the rest of them. I have not pulled the trigger yet but....really tempted. they sound just the opposite of the rest of the Wilsons, effortless on any type of music.
If I may suggest bringing a pair home on loan to live with them for a few days (IF your nearby dealer will agree to that, naturally :-) before pulling the trigger . . . yes they may sound DIFFERENT from other Wilsons but in the long run, I believe you might end up missing the "no box sound" of your Maggies :-) Just saying . . . Wilsons, to me at least, are in the category of "amazing until they're not" after many hours of listening . . . I hope a several day try out with them will prove me wrong about this for your sake. Happy listening and good luck.
I'd suggest one of two things. Sell all your gear and leave audio all together (if I wasn't single I'd have done that myself long ago - I'm serious about this. I think most people would be far better off without this insane monkey on their back). Or sell all your gear and do a total rebuild with all Audio Note gear. You can build your own power cables using silver wire and according to the amperage requirement of each power cord (there's your money savings - by as much as possible used but knowing there are a lot of counterfeits out there).
@@bunsw2070 YEP . . . it's a vicious circle . . . the Audio mags review gear and hype it up so that the manufacturers buy more advertising space and the circle keeps on going and most people chase their audio tails for most of their lives LOL
Mikey, That's a good honest answer on what music should probably sound like. I bet you would like the old Marantz gear!
My biggest regret was selling a J.R. Coherence preamp with new modules from Jeff. To bad we are always looking to improve on something that already sounds great. As far as speakers go try the Block Audio Shelf Blocks which I purchased to keep cost down and very glad I did. Question: have you ever heard the newer tape deck M 002 P from Ballfinger?
I went the other way, been audiophile for 20 years, started with more relax vantage equipments which slowly went to the more clean and analytical/transparent. I love it as I love listening to the mastering which is more what you listen to on a record/flac vs real life. Like he said it will never sound like real life. I appreciate the effort and art of putting all of this together
Thanks for sharing!
@@OCDHIFiGuy thanks for your video!
Mikey, what do you think about monitor audio Platnum?
You got it Man, it's the difference between the well renowned and the really good 😉. More importantly, my rule of thumb is if I can hear the sound of the instrument over how it's being played, then it's not working for me. That's what I define as a 'Hi Fi Sound' no matter how good it sounds, the musicians play 2nd fiddle to the sound. But if I honest it what most people like when they listen on a superficial basis. 🤔
Well said Mikey, this I why I love following you. If you can emotionally connect to a speaker it has no value to me either.
I’ll be curious to hear your views on Avalon speakers.
First - whazzup! Great video! Cheers - Luther
WHAZAAAAA ?? Cheers Luther !!
how much resolution is enough?
Well, for me, this is the best advert for Wilson and Magico because I want analytical sound, free of any coloration. This is BTW their goal, more so with the Magico.
Spoken like a newbie. Nothing wrong with that. See how long you remain in the analytical sound camp after the years go by. You'll end up with McIntosh and Sonus Faber
@@OCDHIFiGuy I must confess, I wouldn't mind Sonus Faber and McIntosh. They're speakers done right with the warmth and softness in mind that would melt even the harder ones. You're probably right, and i wish you'd be right about me ending up with Sonus Faber!
I Hear you perfectly ,
And in special after a certain experience and age , I do not care about perfection ,
I must engage with the music played by a system on a emotional level ,
The rest I do not care anymore .
Question for you Mikey, i don't know if you are a dire Straits fan or not but i completely understand where your coming from about systems that are too resolute however with out finding a good middle ground it can prevent the listener from missing details in the music case in point the Dire Straits song private investigations has 3 non musical effect sounds contained within it footsteps, someone breathing and a breaking glass when i listen to the song on headphones i hear all of these elements but when i listen to the same song on my stereo system i need to crank it up to about 95db to hear any of these effects however i normally only listen between 75-80db other than feeling that i may sometimes be missing out on some musical details i actually do really enjoy the sound of my system and i do connect emotionally with the music so ultimately i would like to put together a system were i would not lose the emotional connection but not miss out on any musical details so my question to you is what types of gear do you recommend to accomplish that goal...PS thanks for all the great content!😀
Call me and I can go over details
You are correct Mikey!
I am Using the TAD CE-1 BE edition, combined with a monster Krell FPB-700cx amp, combined with a dCS Paganini and Master Clock etc, and the sound from the dCS makes the sound sounding very fast and correct, but is almost to correct as you saying
Right... sometimes hard to relax....
Hey man that was a very interesting point of view , or maybe better ...way of listening, thumbs up.
Ok Wilson Alexx-V factory set up sounds amazing with a triangle art tube preamp and a class A Krell i400 400watt power amp.
Dude it’s soulful!
That’s why Michael Fremer uses DartZeal that’s more musical and soulful on his Wilson’s
Great video Mikey! Musicality will trump hi-fi every time. If your feet are not moving or grooving then your system is not connecting with you. Rig check: Play Chuck Berry’s- Jonny B. Goode- if you are not doing a one minute groove across your living room floor then your rig has failed you or you need an upper.
Your description of the connection with the music is what I thought Krell lacked when I listened to it 30 years ago. Even Levinson was like that. It was very sterile. I never walked away from a demo wanting that equipment.
There u go
OMG what he is saying is absolutely true; many years (18) ago I was in SF and heard a system with top of the line KEF speakers, all McIntosh (was not a fan even then) & lowly Tributary cables; the music moved me to tears. I then went across the street and the system was top of the line B&W with Krell mono blocs & top of the line Tara cables. As I was listening I had a revelation I thought this system is throwing more musical information at me than I ever thought possible but try as I might I am not engaged. Martin Logan CLS II Z we’re my first love because there is no crossover like no crossover! When John Atkinson measured their 15A ESL he said he had never seen such a linear in room response. We have the 13A; yes they are transparent and quick but NOT clinical. Before buying we auditioned the Paradigm Persona 7F which got a great deal hype in the press; talk about sterile! We are amazed how the ML are all the qualities you expect from an electrostatic and still as you say “seduce” by being warm, drawing you in and thus engaging. We have been to shows and seen how easy it is to get initially infatuated with speakers because they hit you over the head; end of rant with my wife’s 3 favorite words & they are not I love you, they are you are right!😂
McIntosh is very musical
Not perfect but always pleasant and emotional. Specially the vocals.
Yes that's makes sense ❤ this is why i still have problems choosing between kef, harbeth and amazing active studio monitors 😅😊
Thanks for sharing!
My only experience with Wilson was an afternoon with my Audio Matiere Majuscule integrated tube amp and the Cub 2. It nearly brought me to tears. I would say the "imperfection" of tubes was a match.
As I've said before, you have to match the speakers with amplification. Everything in the chain matters as well as set up and room treatments. I love my Magico A3's. Thanks to you Mikey, My A3's deliver the magical emotion you speak of. I can listen to my rig for hours at a time. However, it took multiple amps and preamps to get there. Magico isn't an easy brand to get right but when you do they're absolutely incredible! Not everyone has the patience to get there, some people give up before they find the right synergy. That, for sure, is a drawback of the brand.
You speak of live music. I saw Steely Dan in Chicago last June. Snarky Puppy opened up for them. I had never heard the band before but In my opinion they sounded much better than Steely Dan. I streamed them on my rig the next day after the show, and since then, It was as if they were live in my listening room!
Mikey you know I love ya, someday I want to come back for another visit and get more gear. Your reference rig is the best sounding rig I've heard. However when I heard the TAD speakers in your videos, to me they sounded dull and uninspiring. I didn't connect emotionally with them the way I did with your reference rig both in person and in your videos.
You are also a digital guy and don't prefer vinyl. Good vinyl (set up and pressings) has more layers, emotion and warmth than digital. In my opinion, this was confirmed at your place when we did a vinyl versus digital shoot out. I thought my cheap little analog front end held it's own against your Goliath digital front end at a fraction of the cost. No question your digital was amazing but there were a couple of selections that I thought sounded better on the vinyl. Your analog tape killed both! If you add a superior analog front end to a synergistic rig like mine it will deliver the goods in spades!
To invest in vinyl because "some" records and pressings will sound better is a total waste of money, IMHO. I believe you are under the "Ether" of vinyl because the cool audio guys in your life live and die by it. It's a good thing for you guys to share in, you trade, he gives or sells you killer pressings, etc. So I get your attachment to it. It's woven in to your social life. I'd love to hear Magico sound great. I'm going to hear M3 on Saturday with Boulder and MSB. A half million dollar rig. Let's see how great it sounds.
You already told me you are sore that I carry TAD after short dicking Magico, so I don't believe you thought they were dull and lifeless. I would not say that to others, or you'll come across as not knowing good sound. It's not "subjective" with TAD. It's overtly lifelike. Dull and lifeless is the absolute opposite of how they sound. If anything, they would be called forward. Watch Steve Guttenberg get all giddy over them and realize the speakers I have are on the cover of Stereophile this month celebrating their greatness... so it's not my imagination. So far, everyone who's heard them is floored. It's an industry breakthrough product. People that "don't like" them are suspect to me. There's a reason why but it absolutely isn't the sound... lol.
Thanks for your feedback Davey.. I'll be listening for magical emotion as you say... I simply want connection to the music... perhaps it is amps... Maybe you ought to let others know your DAC is an Audioquest Dragonfly. A $300 DAC that fits in a memory stick and uses the USB 5V power supply off the host computer motherboard... there is no lower DAC performance than that. Yet you are willing to spend $3K on a cartridge.. so you are fully biased. No problem brother. Everyone has thier own juice. As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters.. !
I think both Wilson's and Magico sound best being driven by tube amps and pre amps. Perhaps because they sound less clinical when driven by tube gear. I've heard Wilsons at many levels in person over the past 25 years, and IMO Wilson's need tubes. I had not heard Magico's in person before Axpona 23. In the room where Alon Wolf was the Magico S3 was being driven by tubes. That room did not sound fatiguing after about 30 minutes of listening. I also spent almost an hour in the Magico M2 room being driven by solid state gear. I thought that room sounded great which it did, but when I went from there directly to the Gershman/VAC room I felt tension release from my upper body that I did not realize was there in the Magico M2 room. So I "felt" better listening in the Gershman/VAC room compared to the Magico M2 room even though the M2 room had a more detailed sound. Live music is not that ultra detailed. It's thick and big sounding, but the instruments in the back of the band are not as loud as the instruments in front. This is what I have strived to achieve in my own system for years.
My understanding is you have to own them and listen to them intently for hours everyday to figure them out. OCD is experienced so can make a quick assessment. I still think he's not right on target though. The reason they suck is for 3 reasons. Firstly, they have a ton of drivers that are all different and they each produce different sound signatures (you'll figure them out eventually and hate the speakers when you do). Second is that because there are so many drivers they cover narrow frequency bands and require high order crossovers for them to sharply cutoff the frequencies to each driver. This means the crossover is going to play a more prominent role in the sound and are going to destroy the efficiency of the speakers (Real World Audio has a video showing the true efficiency of one of the large Focals - it's really bad even though the published value claims they're really efficient). Third is that because of the poor efficiency you need powerful amps.
Any company making tube amps that makes a powerful amp (VAC, I'm looking at you) has rocks for brains and is likely deaf. If you want a tube amp (and you do) figure out how you can live with 25 watts max. All you need are speakers that are efficient. You want solid state as far away from your stereo as possible. Anyone who advises otherwise is deaf or has a crap system and doesn't know it. Or you can leave audio all together. Or spend all your money forever trying to get your system to sound satisfying. That last one is what they want. I'm old. I remember all the crap Stereophile was raving about that is now generally considered bad sounding or is totally forgotten. Remember Lamm? Remember Balanced Audio Technology? Remember Sonic Frontiers? Remember Halcro? Halcro were these mega dollar solid state amps that had more feedback then God to achieve previously unheard low levels of harmonic distortion. They loved them. The only problem was they sounded really hard and thin. Just like you'd expect from a solid state amp with as much feedback as could possibly be applied. They likely were excellent sonic paint removers though.
If you have to have solid state just stay modest and live your life. Get married and have a family or something. Do anything but don't go nuts with audio gear. Maybe become a degenerate gambler instead. That makes a lot more sense then chasing the impossible with solid state electronics designed by engineering big brains. The dealers will love you but you'll wish you'd just lost it all in Vegas. Maybe take up Russian Roulette as a pass time. That is even smarter. Or join the Ukraine army and ask to be taken to the front lines. Or take up Fentanyl. Anything but "cutting edge" solid state high end audio (and most of the tube gear is junk as well).
@@bunsw2070 There are a few tube amp companies that make high powered amps (more than 300 watts per channel) other than VAC, and ie Manley, VTL. What do you believe is the problem with high watt tube amps? I will have to admit that I heard a Phasemation tube amp at Axpona that was in the below 20watts per channel that did sound amazing. It was driving speakers that were 92 db sensivity with no problem. The amps were still not cheap, at 30k per pair. BTW I'm old too, lol.
I totally understand what you're saying. Sometimes you start inching down that "more detail" path without realizing you're doing it. Before you know it, you've gone too far and what you end up with are a bunch of individual sounds, not music.
Kind of why I still have my Panasonic plasma tv
Yep, you nailed it...
Your take on all things HI-FI saves your subs thousands of listening hours evaluating gear and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Appreciate the effort!
I absolutely couldn’t agree with you more on this, give me a pair of Spendors from the 70’s and I’m in heaven!
There you go !
So what brands do you like?
What if you combine one of these revealing speakers with a warm, lush tube amp and warm, lush pure analog records and tapes? Does the balance of that work for you? (Your analogies to women and video are spot on.)
I'm testing this theory. It would mean every person's system I've ever heard, even at shows, mismatches these speakers consistently...
Hi Mr. OCD. What do You think about Daniel Hertz?
So what is your idea of a brand that creates natural, emotionally involving sound?
Playback Designs>ViolaLabs or Jeff Rowland > T.A.D. or Modified Magnepan
🤣😂🤣😂
You perfectly described Jay's system! haha
Analytical verses emotional 🎷🍷
Completely agree - very dynamic and big on “WOW factor” but lacks musicality and emotional engagement. The kind of stereo business that carries that kind of equipment treats their customers like they’ve walked into a fine jewelry store. And the kind of customers that go there have more money than they know what to do with and are looking for high-status brands. Oh, for those customers who insist on tube electronics, they also carry Acoustic Research. 🤑 The total antithesis of the customer who loves music and is looking for a low-powered SET amp and tube preamp (or integrated SET amp) paired with good high-efficiency speakers.
I've heard these 3 brands and agree with you! But haven't heard way up as you just Sasha, A5, Sopra 2!
Ill keep trying !!
Magico and Wilson = Ginger, Mikey = Mary Anne. Got it.
At Axpona 2023 in many of the $$$$$ systems, I agree that the sound I was listening to was trying to woo me, but to me it was not a true real musical experience and did not draw me into the music on an emotional level of enjoyment or "goosebumps". In many of these high end systems, the sound has an unnatural feeling of too much airiness or what you call the HiFi sound. I know what your trying to say Mikey and I agree with you, but its very difficult to describe. Digressing back to the '70s, my first speakers were the ESS Heil AMT1s, the vocals through the Air Motion Transformers were exceptional in realism making you believe Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, Linda Ronstadt, Johnny Cash, Nat King Cole, Mick Jagger, etc. were in my room singing to me! Some of the old speakers in my humble opinion are just as good or better than many of the new speakers in musicality. Mikey, you're right the analogy about the perfect beautiful woman is spot on!
well said!!
Hi Mikey check your email pictures of my car are there.
1st thumbs up on this video lol.
I wonder how a Dac like your MPD8 Mikey would sound with a pair of Wilsons? Would there be that perfect balance between what you're describing?
It certainly could be... Ill have to try....
@@OCDHIFiGuy I'd be very interested in your thoughts After you try.
I come late to the party but U agree with every word .I was a wilson guy for 25 years .One day I realised that I always listen too the same type of music and that music is being dictate to me by the speakers. I switched to BW801 and realised that they are way more musical .not as accurate not as analytical but it felt right to me .
Mikey, Thanks for that well articulated opinion. I listened to one of those analytical rigs at a HiFi store. I said, “That was the most impressive thing I have ever heard, please turn it off”.
LOL, summed up in a sentence...
Heard and had Wilsons and Focals, couldn't disagree with you more. My pairings have been superb and musical. And to go against the grain here, i've moved on from relaxed speakers to ones that are more accurate, and faster.
And to add, i listen more than ever with my Focals. And i never did with past speakers. I've been in this game for over 35 years.
My 1008be Focals are Extremely Musical and I consider them the Best stand speaker for the money ever made.
@@scarabeo500gt It's really matter of taste. I heard the kanta 2 and loved them but then I heard the sf olympica III and thought well not my taste but wished the Kantas were a little bit more like the OLympicas in musicality. So I want something in between.
Everyone has there own opinion about what sounds good. That's what makes the hobby fun, because there is no one right answer! For Jay, what I can gather is that he likes a clear, cleaner robust sound. His Wilson's have never been properly set up by a Wilson rep, makes a big difference no matter the expertise you think you have. I own a pair of Wilson Sasha wp"s. I love them! In short they play what you put through them and can play any type of music. They are some diva's though, in terms of set up and moving & proper room sizing since sound stage is huge. Also EXTREMELY long break in period! And they will over power a room, so can go smaller. Once a Wilson person sets them properly you don't dare touch! Once properly set up you don't need to be in the sweet spot to enjoy. If your front end allows, you will hear, details and sounds fully developed you never heard before! You'll rediscover (especially older recordings) your favorites with new understanding all over again! That bing now becomes a triangle, or maybe two voice where you thought it was one (shadow back up singer). They will reproduce exactly what you feed them!
No, that isn't what makes the hobby fun. Like most things in life we need to learn from those who are experienced and know what they're talking about because they've grown through all the stages until they finally got to the end (I don't mean me). Monkey box speakers will drive everyone who isn't deaf, half way up the wall. Michael Fremer is a really likeable guy but the fact he has Wilson speakers makes me wonder about him. You are absolutely correct that some people like a particular sound. But that's different. Those people at least know that what they like sounds peculiar. But here we're talking about what speaker to buy which means how do you build a system. Monkey coffin speakers and high powered solid state? Single ended tube amps with high efficiency speakers? You can't mix them. And yes, those are only the two largest categories.
I think we've all wonder for years why different people perceive sound differently. Are they deaf or do they just not care or are they psychologically twisted and enjoy spending huge sums of money for crap sound? The only material explanation I've found is that there are about six different types of ear canal shapes that are most common. That would explain a lot. But it doesn't explain everything and there are those times where a life long tin ear makes a remark about the sound of the stereo where you think they actually can hear. It's the closest thing to an unsolvable problem I've ever encountered. The only solution I've found is to find a person who knows and do what they say. That person isn't anywhere here. Or anywhere at Stereophile or Absolute Sound.
@@bunsw2070 There is no absolute standard for what sounds good. We all perceive sound differently, with different ranges of hearing. Really, the room dictates, (imo) what direction you should go. In electrical work, there's the standard which is code. If it ain't code its wrong. My Wilsons have given me what I wanted and more. So now I'm down sizing my home, Wilsons will prolly go, too large for listening room. For me, its like the NCAA b-ball tournament. Going to start from scratch and let my ears decide, I'll see what the experts have to say but not let them decide for me. I trust my ears.
My thing was always about getting as close as possible to a realistic sound - in that regard magico is amazing.
I do not share your experience... it's always sounded like perfectly sterile HiFi..
Are tone controls taboo, or is it a way to have your cake and eat it too?
Taboo..
I agree, in my past I had well to do friends with amazing systems - lyngdorf -oracle - no dacs ( I'm old) the systems were absolutely amazing but I like a tiny bit of warmth and what I call power - I don't mean watts .. I know the biz when I hear it - searing crystal diamond precision is sexy but its not me either .
I have owned many speakers over 40 years with my system. I don’t get into looks as much as sound. I prefer real sound that sounds like my instruments and close my eyes and feel I am in the room recorded sitting close to stage. I switched back to Tube amp from SS after a year with SS & tube preamp. My system is now to me lots more musical and flowing as live in room. Just Enjoy the Music not the gear as much! Blessings my Audio friend. Larry
Thanks Larry, Blessings to you as well, Brother.... ;-)
Which tube amp handles hard rock well?
Groups like RUSH, Led Zeppelin, Metallica, Scorpions, and Queensryche?
Thanks for your response.
Mikey, I started watching your channel when you were obsessed with taking your Maggies as far as they could go, and it was quite a trip. Whether I've simply missed some of your content or whatever, I've yet to hear your opinion of the Martin Logan hybrid 'stats, especially the more expensive models. The practical part of me says 'what use is a speaker that demands the listener sit in exactly the right spot, and feed it gobs of power, in 2023 ?' but audiophiles are nothing if not masochists. Visually, they definitely fit into your 'Type A' audiophile category - function over bragging rights - but I'd be interested in your thoughts. Thanks in advance. Edit : forgot to add that they also reportedly treat poor mixes with contempt - looks like I can kiss my Halsey collection goodbye ;)
Hi Arthur,
I never liked Electrostatic technology for myself. The idea of AC power and big power supplies in my speaker kills it for me. I don't like the IDEA before I even listen. Then when I listen, they have killer mids but lack on highs and deep lows for me. I guess ML adds a dynamic woofer but it's just not my cup of tea.. I think the big ones are supposed to be great and they look cool, but not my Jam.
A Wilson or Magico with a tube pre-amp and solid state amp is the solution for those speakers. There are even some integrated amps (like the McIntosh MA12000) with a tube pre-amp stage and solid state power output stage. I have noticed that 3 different reviewers at Absolute Sound have an Audio Research pre-amp and solid-state power amp like Boulder as their reference electronic components.
EXACTLY !! Do you think it's just a coincidence that they use ARC ??? Lol. They are given "extended loans" of that gear by the biggest advertisers. Hello !! 👋
@@OCDHIFiGuy There are a lot of companies that give them extended loaner equipment, but I noticed 3 different reviewers at Absolute Sound have ARC pre-amps. Are all of those ARC loans? I doubt it, but even if they are all loans they could use other loaned pre-amps from other companies. Of course, an ARC Reference pre-amp cost is out of the reach of most persons, but there are other tube-preamp an solid-state amp combos that are much more affordable.
Sometimes expensive hi-fi gear can be like listening to the architect from the matrix, very accurate descriptions but a little souless, as opposed to a charismatic speaker explaining the same story, not quite as informative but really enjoyable as some non-standard phrases or voice inflections were used, making you laugh or cry along the way.
Whoop ! there it is ....
I agree that if it sounds sterile, then there is no emotional connection and you just need some more dirt 😊
So what brand of speakers do you prefer to listen to yourself, if Magico, Focal or Wilson is not your personal cup of tea? I am very curious to know.
TAD, Fischer&Fischer, Avant Garde, Eggleston Works, Joseph Audio, Karma, Maarten, Borreson.. shall I go on ?
Yes, you can.
TAD is one of those brands I always wanted to listen too but never had the chance too, cause they’re so expensive.
Probably the most expensive Japanese speaker brand is TAD.
Can characterise on how they actually sound Mike, or maybe have them on your channel one day?
Love your pure honesty on this channel, we need more people like you in this snake oil infested audiophile industry!
Thank you Mike!
Now Jay will be selling his speakers, and getting your TAD monitors! I have a friend with a system you are describing, all Class D amps for each 4 way driver. First 30 min. I'm amazed after that my ears are not happy or relaxed, there seems to be a sense of urgency to nowhere!
“I can’t connect with the music because I’m tripping out on the ear candy” - well said!
It's a thing for sure... I've had it happen many times... it bugs me... ;-)
Basically there is nothing wrong with colored sound...it has a warmth and musicality.🤜🤛
From the heart Mike, appreciate your view much!
I’ll get your points, but for most people they need some help. I wanted to say this, but you already noticed yourself. :)
A loto f truth spoken here. The last time I heard Wilsons was at FLAX 2019. The impression I got was it was very spectacular, especialy with the bass and treble. It reminded me a bit of when I was in car audio in the 90s. Very clean, dynamic, lots of bass & treble, but not natural sounding.
I absolutely agree with all of them. Music must be natural and organic, otherwise its harmony is lost.
For sure..