Insane Time Trial Performance | Tour de France 2023 Stage 16 (ITT) | Lanterne Rouge Cycling Podcast
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- čas přidán 17. 07. 2023
- In this episode Patrick Broe and Benji Naesen recap the 16th stage of the 2023 Tour de France.
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Credits:
Photos | Cor Vos (unless stated otherwise)
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Data | First Cycling - Sport
“My bike computer was showing such high numbers that I thought it wasn’t working", JV told French TV. Says it all.
Jonas to Danish TV2.: "Yes, I think this was the best day in my life on a bike!".
when the stuff you're throwing kicks harder than you think:
He probably still thought he was on shimano power meter and had to remind himself he now has one that works.
"I thought it was broken,so I tried to hold back but was still going fast"
Hmm..
@@ravenmad9225 He said nothing about holding back, on the contrary.
Vingegaard picks lines and corners like no one - like Cancellara used to do. But today, he was in a class of his own.
Worth remembering that Jonas could have won the final TT last year, but gifted it to WVA (just rewatching it on the Netflix series).
If you just look at the aggressiveness with which Jonas attacked the course from the first meter compared to Pog and through every single corner, you know who has prepared best for the TT. And then you remember that Pog was out doing back-flips in the pool on the rest day and then you know who is more focused and has prepared his whole season for this race.
Fantastic prep by Jonas and Jumbo and perfectly executed. Just amazing to watch.
As an American, it's a bummer that Matteo Jorgenson had to abandon today. He has had a good TdF.
He has been a beast!
Never underestimate Vingegaard again😮
Jorgenson will have his time at the tour, no doubt about that
If Jorgenson goes to Jumbo Visma, he gonna be really good very soon.
You can just look at Vingegaards position on the bike. It looks like he was born glued to the Time travel bike. Looks so natural
He looks so natural ideed. Super natural.
Weird how he hasn't competed in the Danish ITT sicne 2019 and has never competed in the World ITT.
@@shotgundraw5582 Weird right? Since he is the best TT rider and climber in the world.
What a farce.
It's almost like flat time trials as a one off are not the same as mountainous ones in the 3rd week of a grand tour, who would have thought?!
@@Fyr35555 you would need a brain to come to that conclusion, go easy on the other guys mate.
I predicted Vingo taking the stage today with no issues, but the gap is just absurd. Nothing else to really say about it. Pogi didn't have a bad performance today, it's just Jonas went absolutely nuclear.
He was glowing green?
Totally agree.
I read somewhere that Wout van Aert (who was third) said that he was the best of the normal people. Pogacar and Vingegaard are just at another level.
You might not say it but I will, blatant doping. Bloody hell, this sport can be so amazing, and then we get shit like this that just makes me want to stop watching.
Jonas to Danish TV2.: "Yes, I think this was the best day in my life on a bike!".
This was a repeat of the Lemond vs Fignon days, when Lemond broke speed records using aero bars in the final TT stage, winning the Tour! The last 5 kms were ridden at speeds exceeding 20kmph (on the climb), with Jonas on his aero bars, suggests a time improvement of 9 seconds per km (that’s 45 seconds on the climb), furthermore Tade lost 14 additional seconds with the bike change (possibly more with the loss of momentum). In summary, Tade lost over 1 minute on tech alone. Clearly a bad decision from the team, not to have done their homework. This is simple physics and aerodynamics plays a significant role at steady speeds above 20kmph. Even so, Jonas rode an amazing race and was clearly the strongest rider of the day. Hats off to he and Jumbo V!
Jonas probably also did more w/kg
And Jonas knew every corner by heart. Better in every turn.
It was tactics that WvA goes slower so Pogacar gets relaxed and then boom by Jonas. Plus Jonas was eating all that omega 3 since he was a kid in the fish factory.
Delete this
- Jumbo manager
@@funkerman7 🤣
Total rubbish
That is also what I thought..Wout went relatively slow tactically , plus Pog did not have a good day especially on the uphill section..And for sure Vingegaard run his best TT that even surprised himself ..
and now here we are...
Wout definitely didnt go slow😂 he was leading a Parcours that doesnt suit him at all😂
Nuclear effort by Jonas, second only to Benji’s recent Zwift ramp test as far as performance of the year.
Gotta love people who wanted to rationalize Pogi's 2020 TT win and 2021 ridiculous 50km attacks as somehow natural now raising red questions about Jonas. They're either both on the same sauce or not at all. But Pog's performances have always never added up quite the same way. lol
I'm in shock..
We knew top 2 were in a league of their own. Places 3-15 averaged 4 seconds gap with WVA in third. Pog decimates(!) WVA by 73 seconds. Then JV beats Pog's time by 98 seconds?!?!
Yes WVA is a heavier rider but still incredibly punchy, especially when fresh (ish).
Yes JV is an amazing descender and took more risks.
Yes the bike change probably cost Pogi some seconds.
But this is unprecedented, much more dramatic than LPBF 2020. How do we make sense of this? Pogi dropped JV several times in this tour so it's not like he was always on another level. It's hard to fathom.
We saw the past few days that Pogi was getting tired compared to Vingegaard. The next few days will probably be worse for Pogi.
@@BSnicks I dunno. To smash WVA and the rest like that.. I think he did a great time trial to be honest. JV was on another galaxy though.
@@systemicchaos3921 This was also a mountain stage. WVA is not a climber. Pogi smashed WVA too.
@@systemicchaos3921he also smashed wva last year in the tt, but gave him the win because jonas is that kind of guy❤
@@BSnicks That's what I'm saying, Pogi did a great TT. JV did something else. When we see the numbers I think it will become known as the best TT ever.
We see a lot of analysis about the types of terrains Pogi and Jonas each have advantages on, but one thing I don't see discussed a lot is how much Jonas seems to improve over the course of 3 weeks relative to Pogi. This is a trend that goes all the way back to 2021, when Pogi put 3:30 into Jonas on Le Grand Bornand in week 1, but then in week 3 when Pogi won two stages in the Pyrenees, Jonas was only 2-3 seconds behind. Last year Pogi was also cleaning Jonas's clock in week 1, right up until Granon. And then this year it again seems that most of Pogi's success came in the first half of the race, and as time has passed, Jonas has gotten better. It's not that Pogi gets worse, it's just that his level stays about the same, whereas Jonas steadily improves. This would also in part explain why Pogi has dominated Jonas so far when they have gone head-to-head in 1 week races. Obviously there are lots of other variables at play, and things don't conform perfectly to this theory (see stage 5 this year), but I still think it's true.
I have been watching cycling for 30 years... boy ! I've never been that chocked by a TT... and bro, I watched Indurain when I was a teeanager
That time trial ended with the exact top-3 that I had expected. I had only expected Jonas' gap to Pogacar to be 20-30s, though.
Thank you. Spot on as always.
I did not expect Jonas to get that much time on Pogi. But, Pedersen, what a ride
5:33 LOL @ "we thought they'd be neck and neck" I seem to recall Patrick predicting Pogacar taking 45 seconds :)
Narratives change very quickly 😂
Its because Patrick is insanely biased towards Pogacar. He hates JV
@planets9992 Is this a joke? He was the only one last year who said from the beginning that Jonas is gonna drop Pogi on the long climbs, and everybody called him Jumbo fanboy
@@basssorc has got to be a joke. "LR hates JV" is not plausible :)
To be accurate- LR’s call was min 00:25 and max 00:45. The 45” was if TP had a really great ride and JV had a poor ride. BL- people seem to forget JV would have won last year on a similar course but elected to dial it back towards the end. He dude RAILS on a TT bike. Look at his ride from last year. No one pushed through corners like he did last year- nor this year.
Where did JV get that TimeTravel bike? Pog rode on another planet vs the field but Jonas was in a different universe. Mind blown.
Cervélo. Pretty much the lightest bike on the market, while Colnago is quite a bit heavier.
Jonas' position and handling on his TT bike is flawless. Tadej in comparison looked sluggish and uncomfortable like he was laboring.
Yeah thats why he was only 1min13 ahead of WwA right?
Yea sure, thats why Pogacar beat everyone else by far, cause his position was bad. There is a much simpler explanation and we all know what it is.
Flawless is his evasion of tests
@@samo4204 he said in comparison to jonas, not everyone else. he's a stronger rider than everyone else which is why he beat them. just watch how fluid jonas looked. even on the climbs.
@@liammerrick6399 he's fucking doped. has nothing to do with fluidity or whatever.
Küng‘s pain face - gold! He gave it all!
Congratulations Vingegaard🚴🏼💪💛
Believed it last year, serious doubts today. Hope I'm wrong but the question is large.
Human instinct is a wonderful thing… inbuilt through natural selection over many thousands of years. No reason to doubt it’s questioning in 2023
Sore loser excuse…
There are 2 people fighting for it and one of them fails in the later stages.. None of the rest have ever been top tier, always top 10 or new riders. Its not that strange.
@@KittyKat-mx9wp stay mentally ill
But when Pogacar does the opposite to Roglic in the last TT you have no doubts ? I guess that we found our bad loser..
Rabobank are amazing in terms of their preparation and selection of equipment...I mean Jumbo Visma
😂 Dekker, Boogaard et al
Bjarne Riis, Michael Rasmussen, and now....
Go cry in a corner!
The crying from july fans when Pogi isn't winning. Sweet tears and can't wait for you fake plastic fans to be gone when the tour is over
😂😂😂 was exactly what I was thinking during his “performance”
People forget that Tadej Pogacar beat Primoz Roglic by almost two full minutes (1'56"} in the 20th stage time trial in the 2020 Tour de France to win the yellow jersey that Roglic had worn for most of the race. If you were watching today, Jonas took far more risks than any other rider out there. Jonas's descending skills are very under rated. He is among the best in the peloton, better than WVA, IMHO. Jonas also was able to stay in his aero position almost the entire time, wasting far less energy than Tadej who at times looked uncomfortable and was riding upright a lot. Tadej looked very much on the limit the entire time on the last climb. One last thing. The time trial is where the most technological advances have been made and have the greatest effect, especially skin suits, helmets and other equipment. Jumbo Visma is reportedly the best when it comes to technology.
No one respects JV’s bike handling and descending skills. Dude just RAILS descents. Would love to see him and Pello in a wicked descent together.
@@davidsorensen1769 I am a big fan of Pello Bilbao too.
Super duper hot take guys. I've just watched Egan's interview with ITV. My pick for tomorrow will be Egan ''the necromancer'' Bernal Gomez.
1. Jumbo will send somebody up the road as a satellite.
2. Jumbo will let UAE set the pace and chase the break.
3. Jonas will simply follow Pogi unless that puts him into the red. Even if Pogi attacks and gets separation (no matter where), Jumbo (Benoot, WVA, Kelderman, Kuss) will stay calm, ride as a team, and drag Pogi back (to within a reasonable gap).
Unless Jumbo or Vingo do something unbelievably stupid, the TDF is over. Pogi may make it fun to watch by attacking, but he cannot be successful unless Jumbo fuck up majorly.
Your prediction that Pogi would beat Vingegard and that he is quicker on the flat was always curious. If you look at the last two third week TTs Vingegard beat him, plus in the last stage again Vingegard looked stronger than Pogi. And in the Marie Blanque stage Vingegard also looked stellar on the flat.
Obviously no one could have predicted the size of the difference.
The surprise is not so much that Vingegaard beat Pogacar, but how he did it.
its crazy to say hes stronger than wva who didnt change bikes by 10% today thats bigger diffrence than indurain would put in but he was enormous... small to be best on flat he doesnt carry enough weight thats why he has rouleurs. They race Belgian Classis tadej won flanders and ardennes over vdp and wout. Its like saying messi is best player in world so hed be great centre back. Its ignoring physiology,science, or any nuance in sport
@@Maumau-uh5lx Actually the surprise of Patrick is also clearly in the fact that he won. As he predicted a win of Pogi by I think 25 seconds and used the flat section as an important reason. Of course the surprise about the time difference is even bigger, but Ithink that surprise is there for everyone including Jonas himself.
@@ryanphelan6861 I agree. It's nuts the power he put down in the flat section. Makes sense Pog should be faster there but looking at JV on his TT bike, he looks more aero than almost anyone I've seen, and it doesn't seem to affect his power one bit. JV was also clearly much better on the decent. I think it all came together but still fathoming 1:40 difference over a great Pog TT is still difficult.
Patrick saying he doesn’t care who wins this TDF… 🤥
😂😂😂😂
He’s a PC shill who cares about money and his career over freedom to speak his mind
Thanks for the podcast. Keep it up, have fun and all the best to you!
THERMOBIBLICAL.
I need to gut more fish, eat more fish, sell more fish........... out of this world, unbelievable, heard it all before, depressing
Down the start ramp and to the first turn Vingo took 2 secs on Pogi..
32:40 LR: "If you start struggling on Col de la Loze with 5km to go, you’re gonna lose a lot of time
Who would’ve thought
“these are two humans!”
benji with the expert analysis 😂 but actually, great point.
Im not gonna say there is no doping, but it tires me doping is the first thing some people say when someone do a stellar perfomance especially if they are fanboying the opposing camp.
Jonas took that TT to perfection, and on the descend especially he took that course to the max. Technically he just destroyed the corners riding like a descending expert. And about 30 seconds he took were on the descends. It looked like he attacked that course way harder and gave it everything and wanted the win more than pogacar.
Second look at Jonas position on the bike and then look at pogacars position, Jonas looks like an aero rocket and Pogacar looks like a human. It is clear he has perfected TT way more than pogacar has. Pogacar really has to work on his TT he has been running on the belief his power is enough.
Now thirdly jonas watts must also have been godlike. Holy shit he looked smoked after the TT. Im sure theres no doping unlevel playingfield. If there is doping its in the whole top.
If you think any of elite riders are clean youre an absolute moron (Remco might be the only one with reasonable doubt)
Position on the bike accounts for 1:08?
@@Heldarion Cry harder...
@@Heldarion I'm not gonna say that but literally 90% of the resistance a rider feels at 50kmh is from air drag. So dont underestimate aero gains.
@@Heldarion 1. Aerodynamics will account for some.
2. Better cornering will account for some.
3. More aggressive cornering and descent will account for some. Vingegaard gained 2 seconds by the first corner already.
4. VG supposedly does better in the heat than pog.
5. Pog said he didn't do too well at the end.
6. Pog changed bikes and did that well, but that still takes time.
It all adds up.
Insane TT today, i have never seen anyone push that hard from start to finish, I was sure he would crash.
Wow, Jonas! Wow, Benji!! Chapeau and champaign to both of you gents. Even Jonas was stunned! Denmark must be on a week-long bender at this point with those drinks I can neither spell nor pronounce. Seeing a lot of guys with no chance of winning try really really hard today was inspiring, including the fabulous GC Kuss (thanks again, Benji!!) and Mads Pedersen. My boi WVA was beautiful once again in the tricolor but I do wish he'd race a bit smarter not harder in breakaways. I'm sure it's gotten near impossible to get cooperation now, he's so marked, so he wears himself out. However, if Wout ends up 0-for-21 in the Tour, that could mean something really special at World's 🤞
It was Pedro Delgado in 1989 that showed up late for his turn in the prologue TT. He was the defending champion and was actually out on his bike warming up and got back late. He lost 2:40 before the race had even started. He ended up 3:34 behind Greg Lemond in the final standings. What a race that might have been had he not had to try and dig out of that huge hole from the start. It might have come down to Lemond, Fignon AND Delgado in that final TT. Probably warmed up on the turbo after that.
JV went up the climb on a TT bike faster than TP on a road bike. They estimated it took 12 secs for the bike change, so that strategy didn't work out at all. Stunned at the result.
Tadej Said he had bad legs on the climb, also he lost soooo much momentum switching bikes, he lost over a minute from the 2nd time to the 4th time. He was completly done in the end.
On the start ramp at 4h 52m GCN there is a close up of a cold sore on Pogi's mouth. Could be a sign he's hurting...
he has had that sore for a while
Recognising the difficult position you both face as broadcasters (legally and in terms of maintaining relationships with certain teams): ignoring the avalanche of "suspicion" comments from your mostly well-informed audience, won't make those suspicions go away. Maybe the best approach is to conduct a forensic analysis of the performance, then ask if there is grounds for suspicion. i.e. JV stated he was doing 380w on the flat - which @60kg equates to 6.3w/kg. That is very good seated power in an aero TT position, but maybe not as suspicious as many people are suggesting.
Massive Pog fan, chapeaux to Vingo 👏👏👏 However, please, please Pog don't stop riding monuments to prepare for a tour. It would be like WVA and MVDP stopping riding cyclocross races to prepare for Flanders and Roubaix
Too be fair his prep was interrupted by his injury.
Time to a statistical dive into the numbers as things are not adding up.
🎯
Right.... JONAS REIGNS SUPREME!
What is not adding up - sore loser!
Didn't even win the KOM-points.
@@mrpoxycat3967 lol the kom guys only did a 2.5km TT and rode easy the other 20k
Reminds me of Roglic v G in the Giro. It's same but different.
It reminds me more of Roglič Olimpics ITT with 1min over 2nd place....pure perfection. Hats of to Jonas.
Jonas to Danish TV2.: "Yes, I think this was the best day in my life on a bike!".
Insane how little credit Jonas gets of these lads - this Tour, this year has been alot greater made for Jonas, exhausting all the way, from early stage
2020 me: Man this TT from Pogi must be the best TT performance ever.
2023 Jonas: Hold my yellow jersey
*hold my BB (or at least cellotape it to the hotel wall for me… nice and high up if you can… Tak)
🤣
In the la Planche-itt, Dumoulin (in second place) needed 102.41% of Pogacar's winning time, Roglic was at 103.46%. Today Pogacar needed 105.01% of Vingegaard's winning time and WvA (in third place) was already at 108.74%. That is a world apart.
I’ve been waiting for the PED questions to come… I don’t believe in fairy tales, 3 mins on WVA in a 30 min time trial. Also the kid came out of nowhere, zero performance at juniors, just appeared as the best rider in the world. 😂
Could say the same for pog
@@Slow.Smooth kind of but at least he was winning jnr races before he came into world tour
@@Slow.Smooth jonas went from nothing special to one of the best two riders (by a mile) in the world in the space of one and half years. Just doesn’t happen in the real world.
@@eddiel7635 We get it. Only Jonas is doping and Pogi is clean.. atleast be better with your bias and incredibly terrible takes. Never speak online ever again. Your takes are abyssmal.
With a performance like today, fair enough to raise the question, but he didn't come out of no where. I would say his progress looks a lot more credible than these wonderkids we see today, that can "somehow" burst on to the professional scene as 20 year olds or something, and beat everybody in the world. Jonas has had lots of tough learning in junior and continental teams, with an occasional result, but most of his junior career was in tiny Danish races, that PCS doesn't even list(and with zero mountains, so not exactly his kind of races), before he finally made himself really noticed on the World Tour in the 2020 Vuelta.
1989 Tour Pedro Delgado was late to start the prologue. He finished the tour in 3rd by less than the time he lost by being late. It was also the year Lemond beat Fignon by 8 seconds to win.
Edit- I was wrong on the times. See response below.
Incorrect. Delgado was 2 min 40 seconds late, and finished 3 min and 34 seconds behind LeMond.
@nzd8591 That's what I get for trusting my memory and not double checking the times!
I dont think Pogacar can attack before the Loze tomorrow, that descent from the Longefoy climb before looks very technical with all these hairpin bends.
Unless he tries to get Vingegaard to crash himself somehow maybe.
Pogi is not an old school racer, so he won't force someone to crash.
I think that Pogacar and UAE made a major mistake by having the bike change. In my opinion, he lost around 30-40 seconds. Around 20 seconds for the bike change between slowing down, stopping, changing the bike and trying to get going again, and then the rest on the last 3 km false flat part. He looked much slower on his climbing bike compared to the TT bike on the last 3 km.
He would still have lost time, but I think a lot less if he had not changed bike.
That accounts for 15 seconds absolute maximum. We’re talking 100 seconds here!
Agree 1000%. It would be more like 45-60 seconds loss instead of 108 seconds.
We're getting to a point where it's hard to believe. Putting over 7,6 seconds per km into Wout van Aert and more into the rest is not normal. Pogi in 2020 did 2.2s/km to the second best and that TT was nearly an full hour. Pogi was insane today but winning by 4.4s/km in an 32min TT? Definitely on the juice.
doctor psnsupergrobi10 has spoken.. clown
@@RAAZR-You don’t need a doctor’s licence to say what he said. Quite the opposite: a doctor on the pay role will administer the PEDs and then begin rehearsing his paper on denying such practises.
@@RAAZR- Who asked you?
Agree. this was way more extraordinary than 2020 TT of Pogi.
@@princeandrew5430 oh so youre a loonie, figured
It's hard not to have doubts about the legitimacy of the performance when there are such massive gaps between 2nd and 3rd and everyone else... and then to have an even larger gap to 1st... it's just not normal.
Salty😂
Yeah and if it was Pogacar winning by that margin you would say hes world class, just admit that Jonas is better instead of imediately blaming doping as an excuse... Pathetic
@@ekm3820 I am not a Pogacar fanboy, I dont support any particular team, I just enjoy watching cycling. As I said, both Pogacar and WvA were already suspiciously ahead of everyone by a massive margin. The whole of the top 3 is pretty suspect... but the distance between 1st and 2nd on top of that just stretches my credulity. I want to watch clean and competitive racing. For most of this tour I felt I was doing that. But today...?
@@snoeren1 Honestly, if roles were reversed, I would be just as shocked. I like both for the epic rivalry but if Pog did that it just wouldn't make sense either.
@@snoeren1pogacar was already the best we have ever seen. he was so good he seemed to be on the limit of what we though humanly possible. dominating the best riders on the planet. vinegarrd has just come along and made him look like a junior rider. we have every right to question the legitimacy.
❤Jonas is our guy - Winner of the Tour 2023 ❤
Omerta never dies, does it 😊
'insane', which in this case is pronounced un-be-lieve-a-ble
I would like a more indepth analysis of where Jonas gained the extra minute 45 on Pogi... it's only a 22 km TT course so a rider can use their higher power bands... technical descent... recon from WvA....TT bike change vs no change etc. Come on guys prove that it is possible without extra special JV remoulade on the sandwiches!
Believe or not, Jonas made on uhpill with TT bike about 1 min gap after Pogi's bike change.
Bike change was a mistake. Don't you think they thought about this when they planned the route last year?
@@robis1975 Wrong, he already had 1:10 at the bike change so he didn't gain that much on the climb.
He gained time from first second. That really were it. He kept adding throughout!
Jonas has too much to lose if he did do doping and got caught. If you knew anything about Denmark, and who jonas is and what his life is about then you would know he is cleaner than my underpants.
Tomorrow we will see the heighest elevations of the Tour, so that should be beneficial for Vingegaard vs Pogacar. But we don't know what will happen until the race is being raced.
To put into context how outrageous this time trial performance was, in the past decade of time trials of the Tour de France, the biggest gap between the winner and the next three runner ups was in 2014 and the difference in times between them and the winner were: 2.5%, 2.69%, and 2.96%. The only other time the runner up was over 2% slower was in 2020 (2.41%), every other tt the gap was around 1%. In today's time trial the differences were: 5.04%, 8.79%, and 8.99%. I really hope this is a clean performance but the differences certainly will raise doubts.
Pogi puts 1+56 into Roglic "It's legit"'; Jonas puts 1+38 into Pogi "IT'S NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!"
@@user-qh2iv9ht7i If you look at what I posted above you'd see why it raises questions for a lot of people. Time gaps in terms of minutes don't mean much because courses can be shorter or longer that's why I put it in terms of percentage. Jonas doubled Pogi's 2020 time gap on La Planche des Belles Filles (2.4% winning margin in 2020 vs 5% today). A 2.4% difference has happened before so it's not an anomaly. However there has never been a time gap even close to todays' stage in the last 40 years. In that same time span, the largest gap to a third place finisher was 5.7%, (hell even to 4th place the largest gap was 6.2%). The gap to third place today was almost 8.8%. So when someone does a performance that has pretty much never been seen before, you're gonna have a lot of people questioning it. Like I said, I hope it's a legit performance but it's not unreasonable to have some skepticism.
@@osfan25 I read what you wrote. I disagree with your assertions.
@@osfan25 3rd place today wasnt even a GC guy? It was a WVA who has been essential domestique for 2 weeks who isnt even a climber on a TT with a climb.
So just like courses change length as you so beautifully explained, so does ciurcumstances no?
Excellent analysis--to the point and spot on. There is no doubt that something illicit is going on. Vingegarrd time trials like Cancellara and climbs like Pantanni--the latter is reasonable he weighs 130 lbs, the former impossible.
Vingegaard should go for the Worlds TT after this. Wont be surprised if he can compete in that as well.
Maybe Merida's new TT bike helped Bilbao? I wonder how long they have been on it? Finally getting good progress on it?
So glad you talked about "Perico" Delgado. Perico being his nickname meaning Parakeet, the bird yes, and it's also in Colombian slang Cocaine xdddd random not related nickname
Jonas definitely has the anthropometric advantage. Makes you wonder if Jonas looked at Remco and copied some of what he's doing...
Jonas beats Remco.
Jonas isn't setting up his own position, it's all actual engineers in a wind tunnel
…and all of a sudden: it’s 1995 all over again
Sore loser excuse…😂
Casual.
But why would only UAE and JVM know how the "ketones" work? Wouldn't you expect half the teams to know if more than one team knows for more than a couple of years? Secrets have a way of seeping out...
I expect a large part of the field (including of course the entire top 10) to drink "ketones" of some sort. Guess we'll have to wait 10-15 years before we all know what sort.
@@peterfireflylundsure Peter: the other teams are up to the 2020 level and some are 2022 level. But it works like a research company: the more money, the more cuttibg. Edge you are. You can attract the vest backroom staff talent, you have more control over the UCI (brown envelopes), you can Also attract the best talent, you can upscale everything - meaning greater efficiencies. You have money, resources, and time to do that high risk, high reward testing and studies that fails 48 times out of 50, but comes up great once. It’s an arms race
The "Epoca" is back
How does a “climber” time trial so well? Seems unbelievable that Vingegaard would have the raw power to be beat everyone else by so much
Quite suspect for a twig.
1. It was somewhat of a climbers time trial.
Jonas to Danish TV2.: "Yes, I think this was the best day in my life on a bike!".
Danish chicken from Uncle Bjarne’s farm
@@andymiller3889 his watt pr kg is unmatched, and he is one of the most aero guys out there
How is it possible that guys like Vingegaard or Pogacar SMASH engines like Küng, van Aert Cavagna or Pedersen on the FLAT before the actual climb!?
Küng weights 83KG, is a world champion in track as well as on the road. He can focus on THIS stage in the whole Tour. His whole preparation, just for this one day, while Vingegaard has to go all in every mountain stage and despite all of this ... Jonas (who one just a single TT in his career in a completely insignificant race in Galicia) comes and puts 1 Minute(!!!) in Küng BEFORE the climb.
They have just written in some of the biggest mountains in Europe for 2 weeks and you are surprised the leading climbers who get protected all day have more gas than non climbing domestiques? His time is literally almost getting matched by fucking Simon Yates.
Also if you think JV is just random nobody as a TT rider as you are trying to pretend, you're mind have completely left the world of reality.
He would literally already have won a TDF TT if he didnt gift it to Wout last year.
This..! I lived thru the postal ,lance era to identify something 'special' when i see it. Back then people insulted sceptics too. Then came Oprah and everyone was in tears.
Hmmm...I need to look at the aero numbers for the Colnago TT frames. That is a lot of time for Pogacar to lose, unless he was less than optimal today.
Colnago TT bikes are fast, and so are their road bikes. Certainly not 100 seconds slow over 25km 😂
Vinegar on the pickle juice again!
Sour grapes juice much!?
@@Mike-zx1kx in denial much?
@@iann23 If one are on the juice, they all are on the juice. One or the other! Some comes up with that when their favourite do not win. If you saw today´s TT you have to admit Jonas were strongest looking, better positioned throughout and kept adding seconds from the get go. Did you see any of the others look as nagged as Jonas after the finish line. Jonas did his homework and performed excellently on the day where it mattered. Allow this humble guy his credit! It were one for the history books. When both Jonas and Pogi can show honourably sportsmanship, then why can´t you?
Actually thought part of Jonas's ride was sped-up on the TV. Sunday it looked like both riders were close to their limits given the tough racing including some manic starts this tour. Then Jonas pulls out this ride. Ok it was after a rest day, but you do think now how strange his Sunday tactics were not to counter attack if he is at this level. Don't think Pog has dropped too much form wise & you can perhaps take a bit off for the bike change & Jonas's descending, but a big gap in a short TT. Given his speed on the
Climb and how much was done on the extensions Jonas probably went faster than he would have on his road bike for the finishing section. Fair play, he look really planted climbing in a very aero tuck. Would have been interesting to see how Remco would have done on that course for perspective.
Pogi with a big attack. Yates o Pogi in 2nd makes no odds.
So many comments about TP and JV. Yes, blooming well fantastically ridden, by a few more than these two, let’s celebrate this as well. Even in coming second, TP tore chunks off WVA….some amazing mess today will be talked about for many tomorrows…😊
Lopez would be doped out of his mind 🎉
Honestly, this performance leaves an uneasy feeling. When there's only a 40-second difference between 3rd and 10th place, and then Pogacar adds another 1:13 on top, ONLY to then receive another 1:38 (!). It's quite hard to imagine this is even possible without doping :(
If he is doping the whole top is doping. Look at how aggresive Jonas took the corners and think about how many corners there are on this course, that is a second or even more for each corner vs someone who doesnt give it all.
Add in Jonas is stronger than pogi, then add in bike change and add in pogacar didnt feel his best on the last part.
Add in Jonas had to do his best TT and had the yellow for only 10 seconds. That is a lot of seconds adding up.
I think his technical skill and daredevil mode took about half of the time on this course =40-50 seconds, and his extra power vs pogacar gave him the rest which is 40-50 seconds. + his position was just way better he looks like a rocket on that TT bike. Pogacar highest point is his head, jonases highest point is his back.
@@TellusJD I dont say he is doping for sure. His performance was just so outstanding it leaves a bad taste for me. And you got some valid points for sure. I just dont think ist makes that much of a difference
I am more than willing to consider that some of the riders are doping - but I NEED some type of evidence other than stellar results to go any further than a passive consideration..
@@eonbart Well I understand. but for me this is what cycling is all about just enjoy it - non of us are doping testers, and it should still be innocent until proven guilty. When a stellar perfomance happens doping comes up in peoples mind.
If one is a pogacar fan or rooted for him it sucks I understand that but the signs has been there through all tdf somehow a lot of people underrate Jonas vingegaard criminally and attribute everything to his strong team.
I just think if you watch this TT this was not just question of higher watts output it was a TT perfomed to perfection corner by corner attacking as his life depended on it. I thought it was beautiful.
And I really think Pogacar could have limited his loss by half if he really had known to perfection how hard he could go in the corners. Pogacar has for too long thought his power alone was enough His team needs to focus harder on tdf if they want to win and get his TT up on par.
To me it was evident Jonas had been just a bit stronger the whole tour but just doesnt have the kick pogacar has and this day was the day he could show it. Along with stage 5.And maybe tommorow as the hardest stage. But now he only needs to ride defensive.
All respect though to pogacar he is a fantastic rider, but I really think he didnt prepare properly on yesterdays stage.
@@TellusJD You are completely right that this was absolute perfection from Jonas. And I dont say he is doping but given the history of cycling and new researches about micro doping I just cannot help myself but think about it. Again, I dont want to discredit him and I think he is the best GC rider of our time. Even without that massive gap he would be my favorite to win the Tour.
Bee's stingers get stuck in the skin of larger mammals like humans. They die when the stinger along with the poison glands gets ripped out of their body.
They can however retract their stinger after they sting other insects or small mammals like mice, and they are fine after that.
I love this hate, Pog win tour the flanders with less than 70kg, maintaining is form for 4 months, crash doing a tour preparation for 2 weeks, lose 1min in a 2cat climb, next day is in a good form a win the stage and beat all the climb time records and no one say nothing. Lose a TT OMG is dopping.
Dont be such a fanboy, innocent until prove not
So much this. The double standards Jonas is treated with compared to Pogi make me sick.
We are not talking about TP dripping with PEDs in April because it is July… and an hour ago something similarly shocking happened in the Alps. This is not them versus us.
Innocent until proven guilty well said.
They are 100% doped. All of them. They are faster than Armstrong. Which is impossible naturally. But I don’t mind. It’s not my business. I enjoy the racing and competition.
I got too sad last time when they were all caught and all my memories tarnished. Now I just watch from a neutral point of view. I see them like machines.
Ok but why were you experts saying pogacar would put ~20 seconds into vingegaard?
No one expected a 60kilo rider to obliterate the best Time Trialers in the world on the flat leading up to the climb
They are no expects. They want to be😂
The gap held steady in the flat, it was the climbs descent and bike change that mostly made up the difference between Pog and Vingegaard
@@jamesfindlay8690 Do we expect people's legs to be the same in the 2nd/3rd week of a GT?
@@chrisjie2127 july fans do
Looked like Pogi was suffering in the heat.
Yeah, that will explain why he only beat every other rider by over a minute. 😐
Wout van Aert might be going for Polke Dot jersey
That would be a hilarious thing to look at. 😂
Heaviest polka dot wearer ever ?
The Jumbo-Visma manager said that they did try bike changes during practice, but apparently they decided not to do it during the race.
Man those new Cervelo ebikes are FAST! /s
Bummer for the race though. Unless Pogacar goes full mountain raid it's basically over now. I was hoping it would come down to some sort of tied, champs sprint madness
Yeah. Can't believe those times. I watched the SBS feed and the commentary was almost awkward in their disbelief
A TT in the 2nd/3rd week of a grand tour is not exactly a good benchmark.
@@chrisjie2127Dont come here with your well-thought, reasonable arguments. We should obviously all declare doping without any tests, since he beat Pogacar, and we’re in love with Pogacar.
Yea, Delgado arrived late for the TT, jumped up to the starting box and immediately took off. He'd won the year before.....came third.
Yes, they were ALL doping....
BS
Keep an eye on the weather forecast tomorrow…if it’s raining, Pogi is sending it
He’s not the better bike handler
Jonas was descending like a bomb today it was impressive, so I don't think so
Hopefully.If Jonas did too much today Pog can try to crack him in the mountains.
@@senneverschooten6313 For sure, Jonas's line choices are much better. Either way, Pogi will be willing to send it harder (could backfire) and try to put him under pressure and usually excels in rainy, cooler conditions. Hoping for a Grand-Bornand performance, but TJV is just too strong to let him go too far up the road.
What about Stefan Kung's face on the climb? Quite meme-able to me
Yes that was hilarious xDD Looked like he saw a ghost!
if Adam Yates can hold on to that top 3 and my 10/1 bet comes in, I owe Patrick a beer ;)
Cheers mate!
Pogi looked liked Rogi on Planche de belle fille
I'm wondering if all of those huge accelerations from Pog in these last few weeks, burnt too many matches and caught up with him?
Wouldn't be first time
Now I think Jumbo Visma’s tactics have become clear. If a lead could be established with Pog dropping off, all good. But otherwise stay out of the red and on the wheel of Tadej prior to the TT and the mountain high point on Wednesday where his pure climbing ability will hopefully be the difference. Pog is not a pure climber, Ving not a one day racer, different strokes for different folks. People have overtalked Pog based on beating Roglic and Bernal who are far from “greats” in GT’s.
Here comes the easy hate. How fast you all change from: Pog is crazy good and a real threat to “he is overtalked”.
Absolute casuals. Lots of GC legends lost the tour by 4 minutes+ in second place some times. That doesn’t make him “overtalked” (whatever that word even is supposed to mean). Pog is a generational talent and a great GC rider. You don’t get no TdF for free.
Just so happens that Vingegaard is undeniably a touch better.
THATS literally all it is. 1-2min over 3 weeks is a TINY margin.
Let’s see next year. If Pog does better in case he goes full focus TdF and no classics in spring.
This comes from a full vingegaard supporter. I just can’t stand the dumb hate between the fans. The guys are incredible and deliver us a sick battle and now it’s all of a sudden a domination and Pog is shit. 2 days ago vingegaard is done because he can barely follow. It’s pathetic commentary.
I don't buy it. He was dropped many times by Pog this past 2 weeks, with 3 of those times leading to time gaps. No way would he concede time gaps to conserve energy for the TT. Doesn't make any sense.
It was an unhuman performance today. I still can't make sense of it considering Pog did a great TT too. I'm a big fan of JV but I have to say I'm suspicious.
@@systemicchaos3921 Of course, tio, we're all suspicious and cynical and doubtful. Idk what to do about it - how do I walk this line of love for the sport and suspicion? Advice?
@@gabrielgordillo6920 advice from someone who grew up watching cycling between 1997-2006. I got super involved, read everything, and hated Armstrong (because Ullrich was my childhood hero). I knew Armstrong was doping. There were a million signs. Ofc I was blind to my guy being on the juice too.
Anyways, how do I enjoy watching cycling now, knowing (with almost the certainty of back then) that they are all juiced again?
I don’t get personally attached to riders anymore. I see them more like machines performing. Machines that are tuned. And I enjoy the spectacle without it becoming personal. I root for people (Jonas this year) but I appreciate more the entire event than “needing” him to win.
That’s how. A bit more distance. A bit more an entire view. And don’t read into the whole background too much. It’s just sad and tiring what these guys go through to be successful for a few years. It’s their entire life’s on the line. Can’t even blame them.
@@youbetu18 I've hit 350-370w FTP with same body build as Pogi with disrupted calendar(not even getting into specialty phase) due to depression and eating disorder(not in terms of eating too little), so idk how you can disbelief these guys doing 400-450w FTP at the top .001% of the world. You just didn't win the genetic lottery and probably neither put in the time in the gym to improve neuromuscular connection. Also, the guys now are faster simply because of
1. Bikefit (comfort espec. cut-out saddles + power + aero)
2. Nutrition and hydration(actually eating to fuel the effort)
3. Aero equipment(helmet, handlebars, skinsuits, bike, wheels)
4. Tyres(tubeless + wide tyres for railing corners + better construction)
Jonas can win Paris-Roubaix if he wants, somehow...
I want to see him at Tour of Flanders, Fleche Wallonne and LBL.
I want to see him race in Portugal. If you know, you know 😅
@@georgec2894 on the highest waves... easy.
He can fly to the moon if he's on the right stuff
@@bene4577 He can catch "Voyager One"on a bmx
The most insane thing is that noone is asking questions lol
Early on the Podcast, Benji and Pat agreed/decided/said they won't publicly question an astronomical performance. They won't add pepper to suspicion. They will give riders the benefit of the doubt until there's physical evidence
@@thatomokoena5098 15 sec in a km on Wout van Aert. You honestly think that's normal. And btw i'm talking about the media in general. That while team is insane i stopper believing after wat Nathan van Hooydonck did in the colombier stage. Grtz ✌️
@@kristofrookx8452 are you suggesting van aert is doped?
Everyone is asking questions, its literally commented under 50% of articles re: pro cycling
Maybe once any actual evidence would show instead of brainless conspiracy theories more people would change sides?
Also if you dont knoww why Jonas beat Wout today you probably dont even follow cycling or you arent too bright. He would also have beat him last year if he didnt gift WVA victory for your info.
The earth is flat its ovbious, i once stood on top of a very tall hill and the earth was still flat. Why is noone in the media pointing this out???? Its all lies
@@nt78stonewobble of course he is. He is a pro cyclist you melt
Tornado Tadej is out of wind.
If it feels too good to be true, then it probably is.
Feels like Landis 2006 😢
@@bene4577Nah Landis got crushed the day before then turned it around. JV has been the strongest this Tour.
@@ericlehman53 yeah that's no what I said, I said that it FEELS the same to me, the same level if unreal. I mean, Jonas gained 7 seconds per KM on WvA, his total time was 5 per cent faster than Pog and 9 per cent faster than WvA as the third. That doesn't seem normal to me. But it's just a (rather bad) feeling.
@@bene4577Because Jonas had prepared the time trial significantly better. Had ridden the course many times and had every corner and downhill memorized. WvA and Pogi had not put in anything near that level of preparation. Pogi had only ridden the course ONCE and chose to spend the rest day at the pool.
Vingo also has a significantly more aerodynamic position on the bike.
@@holmbjerg yes of course hahaha Jonas is basically the only professional in the peleton, all the others are basically amateurs! (if you're ironic, good one!)
It's just a series of marginal gains and hard work.
😂😂👌
Bjarne Riis, Michael Rasmussen, and now.... (but I don't blame him since they are all/mostly juiced). His director spourtiff Grischa Niermann confessed to using EPO during his career on Rabobank through the 2000's.
TJV is lead by the same guys who lead doping back then. But they clearly all are. The times now are quicker than Armstrongs. There is just no way :D But hey, let’s just enjoy the tour and competition. Nothing we ca do about it
@@youbetu18 I agree, its pro sport and entertainment. It's not their fault either, its just how the game is played
UAE are led by notorious doper Mauro Gianetti who as DS has had a number of his riders banned for doping over the years but never faced charges himself as the UCI don't hold teams or 'DS's accountable ...former rider Heulot has said '“Doping is so ingrained in certain managers, like GIanetti, that they can’t conceive of cycling any other way,” so Pogi and his UAE team are certainly doping but so too must be JV and sadly most of the others ...these are not natural performances, even with the great advances made in equipment and training methods in recent years
@@chrisbaldwin3420 I’m just gonna leave this here:
EPO alone gave Armstrong and Co. a 20% boost. And that’s not even close to all this guys took and injected and inhaled.
Look at Armstrongs gear back then and tell me the bikes of today go 20% (!) faster.
As if.
Remember when the tour actually got slower for a while after the crackdown in 2006?
Instead today they are beating Armstrongs times like he is an amateur.
Accept it or ignore it. Or go watch something else ✌🏼
@@youbetu18Almost like there are multiple factors as to why riders could be doing better than just bikes?
Sports science is moving fast, alot has happened since 2006 not just their bikes lol. They eat better, sleep better, recover better, travel better.
Not saying they are all clean, probably not but to say its just the bikes is weird.
They moved the barrier so riders could no longer crash on the white line in 1st corner.
Bees can absolutely sting other bees lol
Also, been calling that Vin would smash Pog for a minute or more in week 3 since the Tour started. I thought it might come today, but I was expecting one of the actual stages tomorrow or the next
Indeed today the power of Jumbo Well Balanced Breakfast (trademarked) was shown in full. It is not even funny anymore. we know everyone in cycling is doped to the gills, but how good Jumbo is at doping is fascinating, true masters at their craft
just an idea: is Jonas performance maybe really good when he is fresh (as on the day at the start, when he distanced pog on the climb)? and then on the second (not-fresh-anymore) day pogi gets the advantage. And around the period to the next rest day it levels out? I saw that for example in the size of the gaps, that pogi was able to create when sprinting, they always got smaller when approaching rest days
With Jonas TTing like that, Remco has a serious problem next year.
Yes. JV’s profile was very Remcoesque.
Ayuso Will be the threat in gc , not remeco , he is a chassis rider , beatet in Suisse by two kids