Jordan Peterson & Sam Harris Try to Find Something They Agree On | EP 408
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- Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with author, philosopher, and app developer Sam Harris. They discuss the benefits of routine meditation, deleting X (Twitter), the issue of defining a Higher Good, the reality of evil, and the difficulty in establishing a shared morality.
Sam Harris is the author of five New York Times best sellers. His books include The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation, The Moral Landscape, Free Will, Lying, Waking Up, and Islam and the Future of Tolerance (with Maajid Nawaz). The End of Faith won the 2005 PEN Award for Nonfiction. His writing and public lectures cover a wide range of topics-neuroscience, moral philosophy, religion, meditation practice, human violence, rationality-but generally focus on how a growing understanding of ourselves and the world is changing our sense of how we should live.
This episode was recorded on November 27th, 2023
Dr. Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: bit.ly/3KrWbS8
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- Chapters -
(0:00) Tour dates 2024
(0:40) Coming up
(1:14) Intro
(3:19) Where Sam is now, the Waking Up app
(11:30) Optimizing your niche, leaving twitter
(15:07) The hallucination machine
(24:30) The fallacy of immediacy, Elon Musk
(33:05) Have we found objective morality?
(42:49) How Postmodernists break the meta narrative
(47:13) If “good” is indefinable, what about “evil”?
(53:05) Dogmatic bliss, archetypes, and animating ideas
(1:02:58) Issues with having a Higher Good, and the absence of one
(1:10:16) Do positive attributes have a commonality of good?
(1:16:38) That which you most want is found where you least want to look
(1:27:56) The celebration and protection of religious dogma
(1:43:52) How to differentiate between knowledge and dogma
(1:53:02) Why Harris remains an Atheist
(1:54:24) The conclusion Dr. Peterson has derived from the biblical corpus
(1:59:12) A four year old Stalin
(2:06:34) There are none that are so blind as those who will not see
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// BOOKS //
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JP now does what I have been trying to teach my friends to do. He begins by listening, then demonstrates that he has understood what he heard, and (only finally) explains how or why he disagrees or offers his position, while seeking to establish and expand points of agreement. This is how discussions converge on truth.
@herrrmike
I just wanted to point out to you and anyone curious enough to read.
Look how little engagement your comment has. I know it's not been up long, and it is Factually correct!
But that's my point, our society as many of us now know, absolutely thrives on meaningless conflict and outrage.
You didn't say anything Negative, or slanderous, or Incorrect at all! And yet, very Few of us will recognize it let alone even notice it among the Noise of the "outrage machine" as Sam calls it.
It's just crazy how we would, By The Numbers, rather be angry at each other than give one Goddamn Hug!
Signed
Humanity 2023
Masterclass in active listening 👏🏼
Yes indeed and truth is reality.
Yes he does that, and you probably started doing it because Jordan has been advocating for exactly that for many years. So you make it sound quite weird by saying he now does it, but you also should recognise that although he's been doing this for years, probably decades.. He still doesn't use this as much as he could, to anybody he could. Might be worth keeping in mind for a bit...
I am a fan, yet I will remain a sceptical one.
Oh and by the way, you better just stick to doing it, rather than "trying to teach" it. People usually have it a lot easier learning by example than by most other methods.
@@gnubbiersh647 Dennis Prager is just extremely conservative. Temperamentally you'd find him hard to understand and even ridiculous if you were more liberal in your temperament like me. I struggled with this for a while until I became aware that when I find others behavior perplexing, it usually means I don't actually understand what they think and why they think it. It's still fine to disagree with their conclusions, but if you find someone ridiculous I'd be careful. It's likely you who lacks understanding. With that said I don't particularly like Dennis Pragers views on many political issues. And this isn't meant to be an attack, I wasn't aware of this for a long time.
I always like it when two people who disagree with each other can still be friendly with one another
I couldn’t agree more on that!
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. 😇
I don’t. Jordan should not allow Sam to blaspheme.
@@loganfignewtonoh shut up take a hike
Sam said he didn't care if hunter Biden had dead children in his basement he still would vote for Biden. So how does he have a conversation about evil?
I listen to most conversations from Dr. Peterson This one is in the top 3 I would say. I’m a Christian, and hearing more of Sam’s point of view helps me understand better the position and the courage of an atheistic perspective that has at its core, the propagation of more good and increased well being in the world. I haven’t quite gotten that from previous conversations with Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins. But my sense is that these are truly great men I need to understand better. I do now do a little better I think thanks to JBP.
So many conversations go no where because of the confusion of definitions, and the unwillingness to use certain terms that don’t fit as neatly in someone’s mental framework. This conversation deals with that like I’ve never seen
I appreciate Sam’s willingness to grant Dr. Peterson his perspective using mythological and religious language. Which I personally find helpful even if he most often doesn’t.
The mutual respect and humility from both these men was empowering to me. I can see where the points of agreement, at the very least are crucial.
I hope I can approach important conversations half as well.
That's what happened in their conversation some years back. Peterson was trying to use a word in a way that Sam didn't agree with how it should be used despite understanding his point, and it turned into 25 minutes of debating the proper use of that word, which was very annoying. I don't think Sam has changed his position, but he has gotten better at explaining it to a degree.
Very disappointing. Sam's talk is full of logical knots
@@friarnewborg9213those knots are subjective constructs of yours, what he’s saying is very simple at its core. That what’s good and bad is pretty intuitive, as a species we’ve just weaved so many hallucinatory and undemonstrated narratives (religion) around that concept to, largely and ironically, justify one groups actions and/or rejection of another group.
Very well articulated, 100% agreed.
@@dayseven28 religious Edgelords are the most fun Edgelords. Thanks for the righteous post.
Super glad the two of you got to publicly speak again, I’m a huge fan of both of you. Hopefully this will lead to more conversations and further understanding of each other
Higher consciousness is one thing the 'mind only' societies (with the demonic entity Jehovah being a particular patron of this state of being) will tremble in fear of.
Going beyond this comes through the multitudinous forms of meditation in existence. The result is not a daft state of emptiness, as some think. The result is a state which, in its still quality, elevates and allows connection to greater insights than which might occur within the choppy waves of conscious minds alone.
Even if you are a cerebral person, which is most definitely not a bad thing, you most likely, if not almost certainly, will still be this way if you learn to meditate, but those various and plentiful thoughts will be infused with an extra quality. Imbued with something ineffible, as the bucket which has been down to the well, where so many buckets are dry. This occurs if you really grasp how to make this condition arise.
Of course, many of those who meditate, perhaps to a state of higher consciousness or perhaps not, are simply engaging a type of hobby, or if it is more than this, they can be living an aescetic life, choosing to bask in various states of thinking. In the wilderness, in a specially designated order. However, when those rare souls balance the spiritual and pragmatic, you get your Nikola Tesla's, or ancient sages and mystics who know about our star bound ancestry not by theory, or polymaths of many topics and what have you.
Such people may even know things which are so far out that a majority of people will only grasp what they were saying hundreds or thousands of years posthumously.
@@KimuratrappedK Who asked?
@@KimuratrappedK I want to start meditating myself. I think it would be very very beneficial to me. Do you have any suggestions on how to start? How often and how long, and what techniques I should use? Am I trying to try to ignore thoughts and suppress them while just focusing on my breath? I read a lot of conflicting things on meditation and specific techniques. If you have time to answer I would appreciate it, as meditation is something I wanted to start basically any day now. I will not be meditating to a higher consciousness though or any entity. I was not planning on doing it for any religious reasons, thanks.
Sam is clever maybe not smart Jordan is smart and clever
Jesus Christ, who is God, is the Only Way to salvation.
No mortal men or political/economic system can save you, only Jesus.
Jordan Peterson has evolved as a conversationalist in a wonderful way and this discussion highlights the fact that the best of JP is still yet to be seen.
His conversations regarding philosophy and psychology are riveting, and I can’t wait to see him in his tour. I can think though of a few interviews he’s done with political and science figures which have been hard to watch. He’s not afraid to learn new things, I’m grateful for his approach.
This was such a peaceful discussion that is so very much counter to the "vulgar polemics" of so much online discussions I have seen over the last 20 years. It seems in some sense 'social media' has had an overtly negative effect on the public.
@@gnubbiersh647You’ll have to provide a time stamp if you want others to respond with actual answers worth anything. Which you very well may not.
At least he didnt talk more than his guest this time. He still cant help himself though - Sam offers a thought and frames it, Jordan takes thought, over complicates it and turns it to shit.
Thank goodness. Was worried there for a moment
Peterson looks really healthy, friendly, and open in this. Glad to see him doing this well and being this open-minded in conversation.
I just imagined a better world where our journalists used the skills of trained psychologists to make interviews with real impact like this. What a dream!
“So what you’re saying is…”
😂
@@gabrielsyme4180 So you are saying that all women are bad?!
"I just imagined a better world where our journalists used the skills of trained psychologists..."
That _is_ the world you live in. lol If you think that the 'gas-lighting' that characterizes modern 'journalism' is _not_ an endeavour that employs 'the skills of trained psychologists to make interviews with real impact' then you are simply deluded.
@@undercoveragent9889 It's undeniable that gaslighting is a useful tool in ameliorating mental anguish in cases such as trans people who usually cannot face the truth but I would say it''s really quite limited in its usefulness for regular people and is most often used as a tool of abuse, not for therapeutic purposes.
eeh, yeah....no shit? xD ofc the world would better if journalists were extremely well educated, it would be better if everyone was?
This was the best conversation I have seen with Sam Harris on this topic in a long time. I have been a long time listener of Sam since 2004 or so and in the last 6-7 years haven’t felt the need to listen to him on religion. But you managed to extract more out of him which reignited a few things in myself.
Looking forward to the next one.
Do think Christopher hitchens would have stayed acquaintances with him?
Your comment struck a chord with me. Not only referring to the length of time Sam has been in the public eye but also the significance of the last 5 years or so and how much things have changed. Moral and religious discussions are perhaps more important now than ever, in recent times at least. Maybe the coming together of these two Goliaths in an honest conversation can be the beginning of many more of this type. Both for them and others like them. If they can overcome the mobs who relentlessly prod at them to pit against each other.
@@zororat "... ... more important now than ever, " ? Hardly! "Just as important now" might be a better analogy. Yes - you did say "perhaps". And, Peterson a "Goliath"? Well he had been treated for and probably is still being treated for his personal fight with "demons". But they are personal demons - nothing to do with any deities. Anyway - any praise or accolades he seems to receive are from far-right scumbags and the far right media. Most likely - Sam only acknowledges Jordy to lend Jordy some personal support and keep Jordy from jumping of a very high bridge or canyon. Sam doesn't want to feel he might have been the catalyst should Jordy follow the current path he appears to be taking.
I found the pangburn discussions far better than this, to me this just rehashed a lot of the same points. A little more coherent maybe but not sure how much new movement we got. Anyway, that's to say that you should check those three discussions between them out
@@gerritgeerligs912I don’t see why he wouldn’t have. There are many more people Hitch vehemently disagreed with that he stayed friends with. Sam and Hitch don’t have many points of disagreement other than maybe the topics of spirituality, meditation and psychedelics.
Proof that two people with COMPLETELY opposing ideas can peacefully have a discussion, and even friendship.
If Sam meant what he’d said he would call the gestapo on jbp for fighting the man occasionally.
And that would prevent civil discussion. So really, there are limits.
“Hunter Biden literally could have had the corpses of children in his basement, I would not have cared,”...Sam Harris airing his TDS symptoms on the Triggernometry podcast!
In actuality, they are NOT really that completely different from each other. The issues they are discussing are cutting edge ideas, so of course the differences are magnified. But if you look at it generally, they are similarly rational people.
They just needed Cenk Uygur there to yell at everything.
The conversations between Peterson and Harris are some of my favorites of all time, as they help me flesh out the conflicting views within myself. Who knew after the first disastrous conversation we would be here today. Thank you both, as always 🙏
Was it a disaster? Really? Raise your standards. Could’ve been much worse, and should’ve been to call it a disaster. It was inconvenient at worst.
What conflicting views. I think Jordan’s pretty clear about where we should get our morals from.
I feel the same way. Peterson and Harris have a Yin/Yang thing going on which is much more intriguing than the dialogues JP has with sympathetic guests. They both say things that resonate deeply with me. For instance, although I'm quite religious, I, like Sam, find it impossible to accept the claims of textual infallibility.
I feel like the first conversation is just a part of the origin story
you meant lower @@chickenmonger123
Most productive discussion I've ever listened to between Jordan and Sam. Really great!
Great to see these two finally having a really productive discussion. Can't wait for part 2!
This is your best discussion with Sam yet! Due to increased listening, and trying to find points of agreement.
They're both going to think differently about some things, and if they talk to each other about why they disagree there's not necessarily anything wrong with them trying their best to be as impressive and convincing as possible. To use the language of the community they might sometimes try to DESTROY EACH OTHER WITH FACTS AND LOGIC, but one thing that has really gotten in the way of their public conversations in the past is that it's really been played up how much their interaction was supposed to be a VERSUS. I've heard a guy introduce them as they were coming on stage before and the guy was literally shouting like it was a WWE fight.
Agreed. Really great dialogue!
Nope. Sam's logic is so tied up in knots, it was impossible to listen to the end. JBP should find better people for his podcast
@@friarnewborg9213 Mm. Please give an example of his tied up logic.
@@MarianneHMiettinen : Sure. There are so many. It is painful to listen to him. His arguments go nowhere, just circle around
As a long time listener to both Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson, what a Christmas gift to have. As the fun uncle killing time while the grandparents, parents, and kiddos all go to bed this was a treat to be up to listen to on Christmas! As a former Christian, then Atheist, now somewhere in the middle spiritual person, this is perfect. Merry Christmas everyone. 😊
😢e😢😂
I found it painful. Sam's mind is like a sea of Knots
So you were never actually a Christian 1John2:19
@@3hyses anything constructive to add?
@@3hysesAll religions are just mythos, if anyone takes them literally they are already brainwashed.
I want more of this. Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson conversations are so interesting, and i can't wait to see more of them!
lol why Atheism is dead and science killed it. There is no value to discussing topics with Sam Harris other than to point out his flawed logic.
Interesting, how? LOL, it's like Albert Einstein talking to Kermit the Frog. If you like the Muppet Show, yes very interesting.
@@1solfilmclips732 Just because you don't have the intelligence to understand it doesn't mean others don't. Keep your stupidity and your comments to yourself, stop continuing to make yourself look bad on a consistent basis.
1:04:15 Great articulation about how too much to either side can produce problems. I have been struggling trying to find, or even create, the proper middle ground. Thanks for the talk gentlemen!🙏
The man lectured others about objective thinking for years and then failed at it himself in a spectacular fashion from 2020 onward...
Exactly.
Sam Hyde is a Reddit intellectual
@@JackAubreyy no, he's the Ghost of Kiev
Sam "the ends justify the means" Harris
There is no correlation between intelligence and TDS.
You have been a gift to me this past year Dr. Peterson. Keep up the good fight.!
What is he fighting for? I can’t tell. JK
I listen to these two have the conversation I wish I could create, let alone find.
I appreciate their decisions, patience, contributions, and processing.
Honestly is the best policy 1:29
Thx for your work.
1:54
No god's seen or heard in my foxhole for 45 years . 2:18
It's a fairly simple fact, however 2:56
I appreciate your time work and Free Speech is vital 3:34
😂
Popcorn time ⏲️ 4:09
Think about it.
Drop the done, feel free to drop it.
Moving on 5:08 😂
Bye-bye from Calgary Untruedaux Land 🎉😂 5:37
Higher consciousness is one thing the 'mind only' societies (with the demonic entity Jehovah being a particular patron of this state of being) will tremble in fear of.
Going beyond this comes through the multitudinous forms of meditation in existence. The result is not a daft state of emptiness, as some think. The result is a state which, in its still quality, elevates and allows connection to greater insights than which might occur within the choppy waves of conscious minds alone.
Even if you are a cerebral person, which is most definitely not a bad thing, you most likely, if not almost certainly, will still be this way if you learn to meditate, but those various and plentiful thoughts will be infused with an extra quality. Imbued with something ineffible, as the bucket which has been down to the well, where so many buckets are dry. This occurs if you really grasp how to make this condition arise.
Of course, many of those who meditate, perhaps to a state of higher consciousness or perhaps not, are simply engaging a type of hobby, or if it is more than this, they can be living an aescetic life, choosing to bask in various states of thinking. In the wilderness, in a specially designated order. However, when those rare souls balance the spiritual and pragmatic, you get your Nikola Tesla's, or ancient sages and mystics who know about our star bound ancestry not by theory, or polymaths of many topics and what have you.
Such people may even know things which are so far out that a majority of people will only grasp what they were saying hundreds or thousands of years posthumously.
Great discussion! As a fan of both Sam and Jordan I have been waiting for a new conversation between them for some time. So glad to see it finally happened again. I hope for many more in the future!
I have no idea how you can be a fan of both. One is reasonable and honest the other one obscure and manipulative.
Both are chauvanists, ultimately
@@jesipohl6717 Jordan, definitely so. Sam is able/willing to learn from other cultures unfamiliar to him.
@@MrDavital1 What a polarizing opinion.
Jordan, I am extremely impressed by your listening ear throughout this conversation. Not because Sam is hard to listen to, but because we know you love to speak. Much appreciate you letting him take the stage and asking such great questions!
The fact that you're so impressed by two people talking and one not dominating the other in conversation is just bizarre and comes across a bit sycophantic
SH is not hard to listen to.
Jordan Peterson is a wonderful interviewer. He has a lot to say, but he always encourages his guests to speak. Perhaps YOU need to listen more.
@@warbler1984I respect and appreciate Peterson, but he's only human so he's not perfect. He does love to speak a little too much as the writing of this comment has just said. Think it's a bit harsh to call this person sycophantic given that I don't think that anyone would say that YOU LOVE TO SPEAK sounds complimentary.
@@warbler1984 There's a heap of things which define a sycophant, so you can't determine he's a sycophant based off one statement
Thank your Dr Peterson, your conversations and lectures have had a profound affect on my life and you pointed me to Carl Jung and it is truly an adventure. Thank you sir.
Lovely conversation, thank you guys for engaging with each other in these!
I’m glad to see the two of you find more points of agreement. My first thought after watching your earlier conversations about truth was that you were approaching the topic from orthogonal but equally valid directions. My own thinking usually aligns better with Sam’s, but regardless of whether I agree with you or not, I almost always find your thoughts and conversations thought provoking, which is always better than simply having my own beliefs endlessly confirmed.
I look forward to your next conversation with Sam, especially if you tackle free will.
This is great. Please do continue this conversation soon. Something very significant is forming from them.
I hope you two realize just how important these discussions are. Honestly some of the best conversations I’ve heard where from you two figuring out exactly where you align and even differ with each other. Truth and rationality are so important and I believe you both share that common ground which makes these conversations so important. Glad to see the both of you together again!
Are you joking? I found this impossible to listen to after a period. Sam's thinking is tied up in logical knots
@@friarnewborg9213 What logical knots?
@@friarnewborg9213lol you said the same thing in another thread and got called out on it there too. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you are just failing to follow the logic.
Thanks. This is the only format of general courtesy that I can genuinely learn from
I love Jordan’s way of asking questions and love Sam’s way of discussion! What a great video. Two good men who look at the spiritual world differently and are willing to discuss it. My hat is off
One of those men is half a man. A man who wants and choose to be in his bakery where no matter how good or shitty his bread is, as long as his patrons love it and praise him …
Sam Harris is a coward. And mostly wrong on his social views.
Merry Christmas, Dr. Peterson. Blessings to you and your family. I'm thankful for who are you are and what you do.
2:06:00 "People don't know what they're missing."
Out on a trail in the woods, with the sounds of civilization distant and muted beneath awareness, and the feeling of vigor and nature in my veins, I take a deep breath, look around in wonder and wish for all of humanity to know this moment of peace. And I think if only they did, if only I could share this lucidity, all the strife and conflict in the world could only dissolve away into nothing.
But folks structure their lives, seemingly on purpose, to avoid moments like that. They don't know what they're missing.
Yet there you were on your device just like everyone else.
from the trees a great beast bounded. he rent the flesh from my bones, as his teeth gnashed about me. lying there as the crimson stream trickled from me, the light fading, a butterfly lit upon my breast and i bore simultaneously the brunt of all the great wars and of all the great loves that had befallen man. as the beast consumed my flesh, i reveled in the beauty of it all. i was a man, soon to be feces, and yet the mountaintop had not eluded me. i stood among giants. i stood among. i stood. i.
You inspire me daily. Thank you for the work that you do.
I keep coming back for your work and things add up, I get a lot of of new language to complete my thoughts. Waiting for your coming book, good luck!
Thank you so much to you both for continuing your conversations and sharing them with us.
Sam harris could have easily eliminated his displeasure with Twitter by using the block button on the accounts that affect him, there was absolutly no need to "leave" twiter when he could habe built his own "safe" space inside the platform
Higher consciousness is one things the 'mind only' societies (with the demonic entity Jehovah being a particular patron of this state of being) will tremble in fear of.
Going beyond this comes through the multitudinous forms of meditation in existence. The result is not a daft state of emptiness, as some think. The result is a state which, in its still quality, elevates and allows connection to greater insights than which might occur within the choppy waves of conscious minds.
Even if you are a cerebral person you most likely still be this way if you learn to meditate, but those various and plentiful thoughts will be infused with an extra quality, inbued with something ineffible, as the bucket which has been down to the well, where so many buckets are dry. This occurs if you really grasp how to make it so.
Of course, many of those who meditate to a state of higher consciousness are simply living an aescetic life, choosing to bask in various states of thinking. In the wilderness, in a specially designated order. However, when those rare souls balance the spiritual and pragmatic, you get your Nicholas Tesla's, or ancient sages and mystics who know about our star bound ancestry not by theory, or polymaths of many topics and what have you.
Such people may even know things which are so far out that people will only grasp what they were saying hundreds or thousands of years posthumously.
@@kaledon6 You clearly didn't listen to the conversation, Sam was pointing towards his own compulsion to spill impulsive comments, and he had realized it by seeing how his own friends were doing that. What would be the point in keeping cancer, and just blocking out the pain? It's killing you either way.
Dr. Peterson I've watched almost every podcast with just a few missing and almost all your interviews too! and not multitasking during them! ( I work for a non profit .. and notice a big difference in my life being your student) now I need to take the next step and start writing about what I learn. My fiancé George says I must be in the 1% of viewership. Oh and I saw you in Cincinnati last February! Seeing you walk on stage was like WOW! It's sorta my thing to admire you so much
Terrific dialogue. I like listening to these types of discourses. They are insightful. Thank you for sharing. Peace.
Now that was an authentic example of excellence in human conversation and understanding! That is extremely scarce on social media. Many kudos to you both.
Like JBP said the anonymity in social media makes the cunning psychopaths in us come out.
It is not the goal of social media to foster harmony and social cohesion...
@@digitalhuman2768yes it is
More of this please. Showing that 2 people with vastly different views can find common ground and talk to each other respectfully is exactly what our species needs more of right now. 👏 👏 👏
But that's not what Sam Harris does. He's known for random accusations of everyone he doesn't agree with. The guy actively called for the assassination of Trump, after all.
@@ym5891 Really? I know Harris has elaborated at length as to why he sees Trump as dangerous to the US and the world, as having widened the political niche that lures supporters by playing to their fears, prejudices, and (often justified) greivances. But "actively called for the assasination"? Where and when did this occur??
I hate when people say it in the comments. oh 2 great pple having a civil debate blablabla…🙄I’m like WTH is going on here???it’s not like every other debate/discussion out there usually ends in a fist fight! 🤷♂️C’mon
@@ImTiredOfThisChurch no, but when being an ass and “owning” your debate opponent becomes the goal you lose the message and become something akin to sports. You’re pandering to your base instead of trying to discuss something and find common ground.
Meh Harris sucks, people need to stop platforming this dude. Easy skip
It is such a beautiful thing to watch two people who disagree on the most fundamental level having such a civic conversation to figure out the grounds on which they might be able to shake hands. Kudos to JP for having Sam over.
@@gnubbiersh647 That's why he wanted to skip that subject. It became a bit too cognitive dissonant.
I hate when people say it in the comments. oh 2 great pple having a civil debate blablabla…🙄I’m like WTH is going on here???it’s not like every other debate/discussion out there usually ends in a fist fight! 🤷♂️C’mon ma’am
I think the point is that most “debates” don’t really have the purpose of arriving at agreement. Instead, the two side often try to “win” - even if that means lying about one’s own beliefs or misrepresenting what the other believes. That is not what was happening here, and it was rather refreshing.
@@herrrmike then you probably haven’t watched enough debates young lady. That might’ve been true during the time of Hitchens but that time is long gone as we speak.The purpose of coming to an agreement has always been for the listeners part who have to make up and adjust their minds not the debaters themselves . The debaters only have to show the coherence of their positions. And that’s what happens in most debates if you still haven’t noticed
@@ImTiredOfThisChurch At least they are not trying to score points and, as Sam said, the conversation degrades to something performative like most discussions of mutually disagreeing people.
Love this discussion! Peterson beautifully directs the discussion with the logical rhythm unique to Harris for his infallible ability to track one's self.
I've got my tickets for Jax Florida! Cannot wait❤ Ty for everything and for all of your books!
I love both these men! Thank you for the conversation, never stop!
What a treat to come onto your channel to find you two doing your thing once again.
It's really good to hear that Sam is doing so well in his personal life and career and seemingly enjoying life even more. I hope it only goes up from here. They're both right that Twitter seems to be solely a generator of negativity, and it seems to be only getting worse and not better.
These two have always had great discussions, and this might be their best!
Dr. Peterson, your humility and good faith in these discussions is refreshing and inspiring.
Thank you for taking the time to help others in all the ways you do.
I had a terrible life, and it is so good to hear someone who speaks with care, compassion, and confidence.
Thank you for your kindness.
It was a very good discussion, and I must listen to it again. It somehow has given me a sense that I can perhaps heal. I too lived a terrible life in many ways. My mind was twisted by terrble early childhood abuse and neglect throughout all of my upbringing. I was full of fear and learned early on to hide in plain sight. I have fought many days - years to keep going. I am trying to find a way to reconcile my life of a dark addiction, to live a productive life, and not to be tormented by thoughts that I am not worthy or that I am eternally dammed.
@@davidsessera1337
Prayers Rising for you. I had a truly good life till 5 years ago. My current life is dark and I now know loss & betrayal on an intimate level I never could have imagined.
I no longer trust anyone and I pray I move forward soon.
I am sorry you experienced pain & trauma as a young child. I will pray for your spirit to be healed.
❤❤❤
@user-oh9rw8jz6h Thanks for replying and your kindness. Sending up prayers for you. Hope the darkness breaks and you are engulfed in light. ⛅️🌤☀️❤️🩹
❤Ahavah love, joy and peace for all❤
Such a joy to see Jordan listening again!
Loved this conversation. I'd love to hear more from these two.
They had an on stage discussion on religion a few years back. Can't remember if it was Vancouver or Montreal. Worth a watch.
Great conversation. Both men so clear, and more evolved and mature then they were before, via experience and discourse with others.
I feel like I'm listening Harris lecture rather than a conversation
Yes he talks at Jordan rather than with him.
@@kennethsnodgrass2607 well Jordan Peterson doesn’t seem to agree with you guys.
I would love to hear both of your thoughts on Ken Wilber's work as it relates to growing up and waking up as Ken would frame that concept you both touched on. Thank you both for exemplifying the path of enlightenment not that any of us have arrived, but always in the adventure.
When Jordon was speaking about facing malevolence boldly, especially when the mob is against you, the death and resurrection etc, makes me think of the transition between spiral colours in some ways most of Christianity feels like a system designed to pull from red to blue.
Conversations like this restore my faith in humanity, thank you.
This conversation - beautiful Christmas gift 👏👏👏
Every time Harris uses terms like higher and lower, ascending and descending; I can hear Pageau in my head saying "Where are you standing to make those claims?"
Tell me more about pageau. I can’t find anything on the internet
@@Stuttgart1887 Are you being serious? Jonathan Pageau, "The Symbolic World"
all these western secular intellectuals believe in star trek future
Brilliant take.
you can stand anywhere to follow a coherent statement that things can get better or worse to wellbeing.
And you can use the extreme outlier "what about if maximising pain and suffering to a masochist? is this better wellbeing for them?". Even in this example you can devise a place that the type of suffering is genuine suffering, and is not better wellbeing. Maybe this is a state of comatose or a lifetime of paralysis unable to move, etc etc. You can apply this to sociopaths, psychopaths or any pathology and you can find a better or worse predicament for them.
You do need "anywhere to stand".
Absolutely adored this interview start to finish for a few reasons.
1. JP is getting better and better at listening and not interjecting when he’d love to provide his perspective - which frankly, his less sophisticated but far more engaged following would adore him for.
2. It’s fantastic to see him genuinely extending an olive branch to Sam, despite all Sam has weathered the last few years, granted much of it self prescribed. And to do it in the name of seeking knowledge. They’ve already discussed these things ad nauseum, so discussing further in a collegial way speaks to the search for knowledge.
3. It’s become clear that he’s starting to understand that real truth is found through attentive dialogue and that the pinnacle of this tenet is achieved through discussions with people he truly cannot understand. Discussions with Sam are chief among these interactions; you can almost see dr Peterson is learning as much about himself as he is the other person or their view. It’s a pleasure to listen to.
Seems like JP is getting back to his roots and I agree it's nice to behold.
Bravo. Finding the bridge to a respective conversation with the interviewer actually taking NOTES by which to further a discussion was amazing to watch. Thank you.
There is almost nothing more enjoyable on the entire internet than listening to Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris have a discussion. I feel privileged to share a period in time with these two intellectual mavens... Thank you both. Sincerely, thank you...
JP seems like a genuine warm friend. ❤
Wow, just wow. Worlds meeting and beginning to converge. I appreciate very much what both Sam and Jordan bring to the table. Zeroing in on deep issues relevant to the religion-science divide and (from a Western perspective) on the inter-faith/inter-religious divides and conflicts that emerge in a global culture. I really hope Jordan and Sam continue their discussion, this conversation was promising. Thank you
I have never heard Sam Harris make so much sense. Sounds like abandoning Twitter has done wonders for his ability to think clearly.
Ironic because Sam's worldview is as religious as it gets. Atheism is a mythology of magic.
@@NousTrapper Oh?
Atheism: "A magical nothing created everything and when I die I become nothing, becoming one again with my creator."
lmao no mind/God involved that's your worldview not mine. Atheism is a mythology of magic, rationality from irrationality a truly deus ex machina mechanism that can never exist for it's reality breaking. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Ones rational mind that you need to defend your position can't even be a product of naturalism/Atheism! It is self defeating, in three ways no less. Rationality from irrationality, end product of unguided process is unreliable, and naturalism selects for survival value not truth as in whether our beliefs are true. Atheism removes science, it doesn't give any basis for thinking human rationality will reveal anything. Atheism is dead and science killed it.
Atheism is a belief of blind faith that goes against the paradigm of reality that mind is required for creation. Does the author or video game programmer make something out of nothing with magic? No they use their mind. Is the mind immaterial? Yes. Does that mean it's magic? No. Is information immaterial? Yes. Does that mean it's magic? No. Mind>magic. Science does not support the view the universe is a closed system and events can't be fed in aka miracles, that's your blind faith. Believe in magic all you want but don't pretend your illogical pseudo science worldview is the high ground to argue from when it's utter nonsense and self defeating it's so absurd haha.😄😄😄
There isn't a religion/science divide. Its a Christian worldview vs athiest worldview. One is based on reality and the other is not.
@@NousTrapper It really is, and the irony is its built upon bunk scientific theories that can be disproven with simple logic and more scientific evidence is disproving these bunk theories anyways. Its called scientism, its a religion.
JP demonstrates active listening in a way I have never seen before, so impressive & inspiring for our divided nation and diverse beliefs. With gratitude ❤
Another banger Jordan! Some really good discussions of late. Thanks
I like the questions that Jordan asks from his guests.
First time I've really listened to Sam with my ego(as a Christian) down and I have to admit... he's pretty great. Always been a JP fan, love this discussion.
1:34:37, 1:36:38, 1:51:12, 1:53:00, 1:54:44>, 1:59:56
2:02:40!
Fascinating episode!
+1 SH & JP
Fabulous work lads. What a convo.
I can't wait to watch this !!! Thank you Jordan , all the best for 2024
Well, that was a bit of a treat 🙂. Best conversation between Sam and Jordan of the few I've seen. Lack of an audience was a good thing, I reckon, in providing a much less debate-style and combative tone. I think they both did well in letting the other fully (almost) expound on their key points ... must be hard, because they both have a lot to say, from many different angles. Maybe they're both now more confident that the other person is making a fully genuine effort to have a good-faith conversation, which is what this seemed like to me.
I haven't always agreed with everything Jordan has said, but he does an exceptionally good job here interviewing and guiding a great conversation where he seems to be genuinely interested in finding as much common ground as possible before launching into the unknown with Sam. It's an inspiring and un-devisive chat, we need more public conversations of this intent and quality.
Agreed. This is the best form of Peterson I’ve seen in a long time, if not ever. I appreciate the value he’s providing with a discussion like this, and acknowledge that he’s put it upon himself to conduct it this way.
Hoping to continue to see more of this. I’ve been pleased to find others doing similar work, while witnessing a growth of infections jadedness among some others. I’ve been maintaining a sense of optimism, and this is an instance that reinforces it.
I thought the original title was a much better description of this podcast. It was something like ‘A discussion of the existence and implications of Evil’.
Probably one of the best podcasts I’ve ever heard from both speakers, with excellent points on both sides. Certainly an inner dilemma I’ve wrestled with most of my life, as the pendulum of life swings ✨⚖️💫
"try to find something they agree on", is more clickbait
@@yinoveryang4246 I mean so is discussing evil with a Atheist when the concept has no meaning from such a worldview as everything is relative.
@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep Indeed, I watched a very nice debate with a Christian vs a logically consistent athiest and the atheist basically said cannibalism is ok if society says its ok......
@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep ---yet Sam is a moral realist AND atheist.
Much needed talk. Thank you both. Kudos to JP for letting Sam talk .
Did you really need to say this?
yes@@haplotoorop3254
@@haplotoorop3254 did you really need to ask this?
@@haplotoorop3254Jordan used to interrupt a lot.
i love both of your ideas and you both have been a strong voice in my intellectual development, seeing you two getting along and having a productive discussion makes my heart soar, thank you both for this
BOTH??? LOL, it's like Albert Einstein talking to Kermit the Frog. Jordan is the only intellect, Sam is comic relief.
JP consistently references the role of information distribution and its effect on humanity (Gutenberg Press) (Long Form Dialogue). For me to be able to listen to these two talk makes me appreciative and optimistic of where we are headed.
Peterson and Harris - the dynamic duo back at it again!
Always love seeing these two together.
Well, it felt like you were just getting really warm there, and once again heading into the most interesting of territories, so I'll have to look forward to next time. In the meantime - it's always a real pleasure to witness the Jordan and Sam at your best and most open, it really is, so thank you very much for that!
Jordan your listening skills on the daily wire portion were great. Thank you! I hope to see this in the next convo w jon verveke (who is less talkative/assertive). Love the podcast and hope to see it continue to get better. Ps talk with Kanye ❤
When I started the journey on my intellectual awakening I was deeply immersed in the discussions between Sam and Jordan, they helped me realize the depths of stories and the nature of philosophy and reality. I have since then become a christian which has not only worked out very well for me personally, I also believe it might be the only way forward for the world as a whole. I've remained a fan of Jordan and check in on him regularly as he has stepped up spiritually. Sam Harris seems to be in the same place today that he was 5 years ago and I think his worldview and philosophy is not just wrong but won't be able to keep up as time speeds up. I'm grateful to him because he was the steelman for the naturalistic side, but as time goes on I can only see him losing relevance in his ability to help the world unless opens up spiritually
I was thinking something very similar regarding Sam. It's like he has been living under a rock for the last 6 years.
When he made the claim that dogma is only found in religious theory, he couldn't be more wrong as we have seen dogma from political ideologies in the 20th century (as nations became secular and less importance was placed on faith in society).
A great example of the dogma Sam describes as being unable to be convinced otherwise on your beliefs is the climate doomsayers. The evidence to support the claims coming from climate activists is not acceptable to anyone thinking critically. Moreover, they are willing to inflict economic crisis upon the poorest billion people in the world that would be the result of a rapid phaseout of fossil fuels without viable alternatives. They would trade this result for the asserted safety of hypothetical future generations. Though it is not based on any traditional religious denominations, it seems to be worship of the planet in the same way a fundamentalist would take gospel as literal truth.
The dogmas of the environmentalists:
The planet will be uninhabitable in a young person's lifetime due to rise in temperatures.
The change in global temperatures is unprecedented in earth's history.
The primary cause is human's burning of fossil fuels.
The most effective and efficient thing to do would be to phase out fossil fuels ASAP and manage economic decline.
The negative effects of this plan of action will be worth the benefits.
The world is losing its religiosity, not gaining.
That’s because atheism is shallow and based solely on the ego.
@@SonoftheWest316 This is why all the militant new atheists have lost relevance. Everyone has seen their arguments are flawed and they are out of touch.
@@MarisaHoare-px8or after reading up on some pew research findings, I see they predict a global increase in religiosity, due to high population growth in Africa and Middle East. Developed nations generally are becoming less religious however.
Great conversation!
Nice to see you guys back at it again. Really enjoyed this chat 👌
Mutual recognition across differences is the thing they managed to agree on. Great job!
There's a secondary phenomenon here. Yes, people 'troll' and seem sociopathic on Twitter/X, especially when they're anonymous. This is a direct consequence of living in a fairly unprecedented time in the recent history of the West when being honest in your public life on previously mundane issues can ruin you. X provides a much needed vent for that pent up anger about particular topics.
I would have thought the Paradox of Tolerance was put to rest many years ago by Karl Popper and John Rawls. Unlimited tolerance of intolerance leads to the destruction of tolerance. When your intolerance would silence my tolerance, we’ve reached that breaking point. I would skip the word intolerance at that point and say we cannot permit such intolerance.
Their best talk yet. This was incredibly interesting.
My therapist and I have been working through something sam and jordan here talked briefly on, I was talking to my therapist about how it annoys me I can have the most rational and easy to pick apart thought process for someone to recognize but they still don't understand and she said to me "what if they can't understand" and I said "oh" like it finally occured to me I had been wishfully thinking for years that everyone has the capacity to understand in the same way and reach that potential if they just push their minds enough, but it never occured to me that some people operate in a state of simple mindedness permanently. The slippery slope there is not to have an elitist personality of everyone else is stupid and you're smart and you should talk down to them but it's made me think particularly this morning about it, I think even jordan peterson a psychologist should listen to what I'm about to say because if he hasn't indeed already figured this out it could be beneficial to him and other people trying to nudge others into the right deductive reasoning mindset, but maybe critical thinkers need to figure out how to simplify something enough so that simple minded people can understand it by similar enough thought processes that they recognize the entirety of it. How to do that? I haven't figured it out but maybe with enough people working their creative minds together we can figure that out.
1:34:00 Imagine replacing his argument against dogma towards his beliefs about COVID lockdowns.
The great William James said, and I hope I get this quote almost right. people at their best still know there is something missing.
Thank you both for doing what you are doing!
it's heartwarming to see these two talk
Peterson's critics are so accomplished at being infinitely less involved in the art of discourse, discovery, and observation than him. It's truly amazing.
YOU ARE HELPING ME GROW DR PETERSON THANK YOU❤️🎄
I do think technology hasn’t fully impacted our caveman brains, as in 50 years of having a phone , using twitter youtube and more daily will have an exponential impact on our subconscious
I am fortunate to have been born in 1998
In my first 10 years of life I was not given a phone or tablet or even a video game
Now I see NEWBORNS, toddler, kids of all ages given these microwave meal device that is creating something unforeseen
Baby cry, here give them a tablet or phone
@@brandoncarle
You must mean your caveman brain. If you put it like that, you hardly would accept that we have progressed yet most data shows we are better off now. This is an argument from evolutionary psychology and that is a value system, not a science.
@@justanothernick3984 may peace be with you! If you are part of the extinction-ist
Good luck on your journey
@@justanothernick3984 if you feed your kids technology instead of proper care, I pray for your family✝️
Happy new year to everyone. I don't have hopes for new years and devastated mode of life continues to, but, I would like to greet people like Dr.Peterson and his fellows and guests.
Great conversation! 2 of my favorite people. 🎉
49:00 This is touching on a question that has been rolling around in my head for a couple of years now. Do evil doers consider themselves evil or is everyone the hero of their own story?
Super excited to hear this discussion.
Do you consider yourself to be a evil? Are you a hero?
1:58:00 I really like JBP evaluation of Christ's sacrifice. When I was a church goer this idea never came to me. I was too focused on obsessing about how Jesus died for me and how I needed to follow his commandments. Although I did often think of following his example, it never occured to me that I should imagine making the ultimate sacrifices in my life in an analogy to Christ taking up the cross. That would have been sacrilegious to me I think.
Then you get into the discussion about grace and that really throws a hammer in this. JBP take (which I like) seems to be at tension with the idea that Grace is enough and it's not our works that "save" us.
It's a mix. Some people will be convinced to some degree they are doing the right thing but are blind to their own weaknesses. Someone trying for a global utopia for example, often thinks they're far smarter than they are. They miss their arrogance and dismissiveness of others in any self-reflection, treating morality like a math equation and thinking they know more of the variables than they actually do. Thus why pride is considered a sin, because it can blind you to the suffering you cause in whatever crusade you set off on. This is just an example. Hedonists who think pleasure is the ultimate virtue, people who group a type of people into a category of the bad guys without individual examination to justify whatever acts to stop or harm them, etc. All of these people are convinced they're the good guys.
But there's a significant number who knows they're the "bad guy" and just don't care. They either think that the rules if the world are so fundamentally broken that morality is essentially meaningless, or they are so self-focused that caring too much about morality is just stupid, because how does it benefit them? And there are some who just don't see a way to control their destructive impulses so even though they know it's wrong they give up on trying, because they're tired of banging their head on a brick wall.
@@123mneil the mystery of sacrifice is indeed a great one.
to the most degree, people are the hero of their own story.
The person focusses on getting money (stealing, competing) might just be saving money to protect a beautiful family that does not exist yet.
Someone can wish on radical changes in the industry for the environment- but not consider that it means for a thousand families to lose their income.
Evil itself is a matter of perspective. It was cruel to see bambi's mother die, but the hunter was probably just feeding his family.
Sam's explanation toward the end of "the cure" (which he describes as a hypothetical medical intervention) and the relief, gratitude, and also the horror at your previous evil is precisely the experience of salvation by Jesus and being forgiven. That's precisely why Christians want that for everyone.
The difference is that one has to happen voluntarily. The way SH described his "cure" seemed evil because it was essentially by force.
@@KAMAKAZE_ZC true
@@KAMAKAZE_ZC His attitude of "wouldn't EVERYONE want what I'm prescribing" is the epitome of ignorance.
without consent, would it not be tantamount to evil conversion therapy? idk if that would be morally appropriate
@@KAMAKAZE_ZC Well, if the scientific observation of pleasure and pain amounts to identifying good and evil, then we're obliged to remove evil, and pursue good. If it's as simple as that, there's no room for consent in the face of such incredible good. This is literally the argument that people made for lobotomies.
Sounds like a conversation about the grain of wood in a living tree. Here we cut it up from all angles to see the grain to understand it with our physical senses of sight and at the same time we can get glimpses of it where the bark is missing/broken branch. It shows the expansive impossibility of seeing all the grain at once simultaneously without shifting perspective.
I would love to see Dr. Peterson! I hope it’s in the US
Glad to see Mr. Peterson recovering his health.
It's amazing how these very insightful discussions can be shared in full length with everyone across the world through the internet, whereas hundreds of years ago, one could at best hope for a somewhat accurate summary by a writer that got engaged with the discussion as it happened, or to wait for the thinkers to produce a book that presents the findings of that discussed topic.
What a wonderful time we live in 🙏🥳🥳 resurrected Savior 🥰✝️🥳🥳💐 It is finished. The gift is ready to be received. Call upon the name of Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. I am an ex-Muslim from Afghanistan. Happy Christmas 🎄 to you all and may 2024 bring more joy - more peace - more rest - more creativity - more success, love and health in our lives 🙌🎉🎉
NB: This is my claim as a kindergarten teacher in a western society: Knowing your worth - knowing how loved and unique you are - is the antidote to every destructive thoughts, feeling and actions. Where to find our real value? ✝️. 🙏.
Sam Harris is smart as fuck
@@danielm5161No he isn't. He has people duped into thinking he's smart.
In my lowly opinion, the most important part of this discussion is Sam’s take on social media. Everyone, including Dr. Peterson, would do well to just drop off the face of the social media planet. I got off about a year and change ago, minus the use of Reddit for info on two of my hobbies (brewing beer and recording music), and I feel far less miserable. If you’re someone who doesn’t like Sam, that’s fine, but don’t let that cloud your judgment. Getting off social media is something everyone should seriously consider.
It would be interesting to hear a discussion between the two of you on St Thomas Aquinas’ work, particularly the Summa Theologica. Thanks for your always insightful work, Dr Peterson!
St Thomas would call Jordan Peterson Dr Spock