OG's React To IG's - #2
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- čas přidán 25. 09. 2022
- Adam Maness and Peter Martin go deep into the crazy world of "Instagram Artistry", checking out multi-instrumentalist and vocalist Jacob Collier.
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now i kinda need an episode on bill wurtz
I’m about the same age as Jacob and have to say that he is one of the most inspiring artists to me. His live stuff definitely has more grit, too, but the most amazing thing to me is how much emotional wisdom he has musically. His musical sense is so far beyond most even close to our age.
His arrangement of Moon River is a great example of that. It gets wild, sure, but the key changes and outro stuff he does are just breathtaking.
I’d love to hear you guys do an episode on Tigran Hamasyan, Armenian jazz pianist born in 1987. So I guess he’d be a millennial? Anyway, I think he’s one of the most fascinating jazz pianists recording today, well versed in the Great American Songbook but adding the Armenian folk tradition into the mix. Would be curious to hear how you guys break down his original tunes and what you think of his latest album, StandArt. Thanks!
Yeah him and Avishai Cohen the bassist for me
I had a genius piano student in Copenhagen who was in love with Tigran Hamasiyan.
He has a very unique sound. I think his nationality plays into his sound.
Adam should check out Jacob Collier's piano improvisation for Spectrasonics and also his 1-hour piano improv duet with Mathis Picard at the Bluenote, if he's looking for examples of Jacob in the moment. Also, Jacob did perform All Night Live live with Metropole and Take 6 at the BBC Poms.
Yes! 🙌🏼 definitely peep that
Phineas Newborn.
This is a good sidebar series. Seeing you guys stretch just a bit outside your comfort zone provides additional context and insight into your approach and understanding of jazz and music in general. Stuff happens in the spaces within jazz, as well as the spaces outside of jazz - it's all worth some contemplation. Points for being brave and willing to deal with the wide range of reactions you are sure to get.
Adam said “is there anything that you suck at buddy?”, and I think I just found out: Dancing. The section of him dancing in the middle of the street shows us that Jacob isn’t precisely a great dancer. So we found something he sucks at!! There’s still hope for us mortals! XD
In all seriousness, I agree with what Adam says. I would say that these type of videoclips are basically showing us a young man who’s finding his identity. He hasn’t found it yet, so he’s showing us the process. This is true for most young people. The difference is that in this case, this is a young man with A LOT of knowledge, so he’s literally showcasing everything he knows, which may come off as “show-offy” but I don’t think he’s trying to show off. It’s just his process. Jacob reminds me of the character of Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, except without the arrogance (Unlike Jacob, Will Hunting did like to show off and use his knowledge to humiliate people because he was insecure and in pain)
Jacob strikes me as someone who really honestly loves music and wants to share it with the world. But he is in that process of finding himself. I don’t think he has found it yet. He's in a stage of literally "playing" with all the elements of music. I’m reminded of Liszt who for many years dazzled audiences with all the notes he could play. He was known as “the piano virtuoso” guy who would make women faint in the middle of his recitals. But if you listen to his compositions in his later years near the end of his life, the music he wrote was much much different. He wrote some very minimalistic sounding pieces for organ which are more reminiscent of Arvo Part than anything you would associate with Liszt’s virtuoso writing (He also found his calling as a Priest) So I’m expecting someone as Jacob to eventually settle into something more profound and calm, where he finds a small niche in which he will concentrate all of his power.
Great discussion. I agree you gotta love his energy, creativity, genius and hard work. No doubt he is a positive influence to millions. As technically impressive as it is, that phrenetic highly produced sound doesn't move everybody though...and that's OK.
snarky puppy is also a product of youtube. I'm 65, a jazz pianist, and I love what they are doing. Worth checking for one of these shows if you have the time and inclination, wulfpack is like the monkees compared to SP's beatle level thing.
There is plenty of realness and messiness in what Jacob does. Can't say for sure about this song, but I know he nearly always works "off the grid," and embraces all kinds of so-called "imperfections" in his music, rhythmic and otherwise, and I believe that's the case in this video, too. Not sure why Adam thinks it's "perfect." Yes, there are a lot of details that Jacob tweaks in the recording and mixing process of something like this because he is having fun and exploring/investigating possibilities, but it's not to sterilize it as Adam seems to be saying. At the same time he has other recordings that more "stripped down" and less edited, if that's your taste.
This is actually one of the things I love so much about Jacob--his embracing of his human feel in music, in a time when everyone--even in jazz--seems to want to play like a machine.
Got to make sure not to get so stuck in your "jazz musicians' orthodoxy" that you fail to notice when people are actually making music for the most fundamental reasons it exists. I don't claim to know what music is exactly, but I'm pretty sure that expressing this unbridled joy, as well as all other human emotions, is a big part what music is all about. People in general know it. Stevie Wonder, Prince, the Beatles, Jacob Collier, Peter Gabriel, and on and on--they give us a sense of unity as human beings because they embraced their own humanity and put themselves into their music and we all feel it.
Musicians can get caught up in their technical pursuits or whatever and forget what the hell they're doing in the first place. I know many musicians who also seem to have trouble allowing themselves to enjoy Jacob Collier. I say they're missing the point! It seems to me they feel Jacob is a threat to their self-image as great musicians.
I don't know it's kinda presumptious to say that they're having trouble allowing themselves to enjoy the music. Some people just don't get the same feeling of joy you do from the same music.
In fact it's the opposite for me. I bounce off of Jacob's music really hard, and I need to use my trained musical knowledge to appreciate his music. I can theoretically grasp that Jacob's music is beautiful, but I don't really feel it. You can psychologise other people's reactions all you want, but at the end of the day you don't have access to their inner world.
Adam: "you cannot make this music live without the help of many computers"
Jacob: "hold my beer"
czcams.com/video/8fmaqNHqyFM/video.html
I think Adam nailed it when it comes to Jacob. He is a genius and he uses the video format to its full extent. He shows how music can be joyful, uplifting, and how to spread that sheer joy of making music with other human beings. And his live performances, where he divides audience into choir voices are pure joy to experience. That said, when I tried to listen to his albums on Spotify, nothing really grabbed me. That complexity doesn't seem to be working for me without the visual component.
Compare the above to e.g. something like Pat Metheny Group "First Circle". It's an incredibly complex piece as well, once you start analyzing that, but it's also incredibly elegant, because, on the surface level, anyone can listen to it. And it has proper dynamics; it's like an emotional roller coaster that reaches its final peak at the end. I know it's a tough comparison, but it would be fun to see Jacob reach that kind of wisdom when it comes to arrangements someday.
Nah u gotta try his recent stuff its genius
Little Blue and All I Need
The live recording of his solo piano covers, just released, is beautiful.
"Does Jacob Collier LIKE #11's ?" he's got a trademark on a Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-Meta-Lydian scale/sound/vibe/whatchamacallit
15:22 Jacob's music sometimes reminds me of what contemporary Disney songs SHOULD be. But like you say, sometimes that squeaky clean aspect, you have to be in the right mood.
I don't mean to disparage contemporary Disney music... it's good, but I think a Jacob Collier soundtrack would be a good direction for them, and for kids getting more interesting, and more appropriate, music, that they'd actually like, too.
I bet the sharp 11th thing came from watching the type of movies where John Williams used the lyrian lift. Those were always "moments of wonder". (I think the timestamp I'm referencing is around 20:15 ish)
Great pod!
The Open Studio guys don’t quite have the grasp of modern music tech that brilliant young musicians like Collier take for granted.
But I really do hear Adam here though. The CZcams edits are actually about 8 simultaneous performances, live and in studio, using well over 60 audio stems (never mind a gazillion video edits) all at once.
It really IS like a musical overdose of Belgian chocolates! And that is to take NOTHING away from the effort and brilliant harmonic and arrangement versatility.
I’m not a fan of Collier’s music (I’d never put him on Spotify like I would The Beatles or Steely Dan) - but I AM a fan of one-off hits of his CZcams stuff.
Also, like Adam says, where does he go from here? I can’t see him as a 50 year old doing this shtick.
It must be so challenging for someone with this much talent to slow down. I know someone who is a close friend of his and she attests to this.
Best advice (not that he’d need it from me): slow down. Maybe an album of ballads that he’s wrote the music and lyrics for himself. That would reveal the soul that is lacking from much of his output.
I’m very interested in what he will become. Im wondering if we will a change sooner than later since his 4 album “Djesse” is about to end.
I love this series ! You guys are like the Siskel & Ebert of Jazz. :- )
I’m sure just one of many suggestions you got for young musicians to look at but I would really enjoy you guys analysis of the London “jazz” scene like “Sons of Kemet” And “Ezra Collective” also Yussef Dayes who has a similar sound and tightness as jd beck but maybe with a bit more “character” so to speak but maybe I’m biased as a Londoner myself and love seeing Uk musicians doing well.love the pod
Check out his Moon River
Long time listener of Jacob here, I’d say definitely check out some of his later stuff from Vol 2 or 3, not everything is as full on and there are some really touching performances. I want to say his music has matured since Vol 1 (which was pre covid) which this song is from. One of my favourites is ‘Lua’ from Vol 2.
Oh and even more so now!
I'm sorry but this is giving me cringe chills.
Maybe Jacob Collier is cursed by his utter brilliance in a sense because the average and even above average person can't fully relate to the depth of his understanding. It's definitely admirable, but I understand not being able to listen to him all the time too.
Jacob Collier is a genius, I don't think there's any doubt about that, but that doesn't mean I like him. Also worth saying you (and we) are discussing him doing a cover of a pop song from almost 40 years ago. Yes, he takes it to another level, well another universe, but nevertheless it's just a cover. Bottom line, I'm with Adam completely. It's too perfect, and too safe. Again as per the previous OG/IG video I'd rather listen to and watch the recent Bob James live in the studio album, or Mingus Ah Um or Oscar / Wynton / Herbie as per Peter.
I highly recommend Jacob's live stuff, especially the maida vale session. The thing I disagree with is that it's too safe. I don't think there's anything safe about his arrangements, I mean just check out his earlier works. His latest stuff may sound "safe" because he learned to leave the complexities under the surface. He stated this as his goal, referring to Stevie Wonder.
I admit that it’s sometimes quite overwhelming and a bit show off / these arrangements on yt. But there’s definitely other stuff out there which isn’t as layered and also works live perfectly. What I like is that there is a lot of feeling and heart still be found in his music!
Should listen to him with Snarky Puppy doing "You Don't Know" live
My main issue with him on top of the ones mentioned is his singing is too clean, theres no soul and it sounds like a fake voice... the lead vocal on the lionel ritchie version is a million times better
Just took note of how much longer it took you guys to pause the video 😂😂😂😂 Significant difference. S'all I gotta say🤐
Honestly agree with most of what you both said, some great perspectives. The only part I disagree with is that it can't be performed live.
Jacob definitely has some music that can't be performed life, but this one absolutely can.
His live performance of Lua is one of my favourites from him ever, so beautiful. Great piano solo too. Much more of a.. "tasteful" song. Maybe one you could see yourself listening to casually.
There's a youtube channel where this dude puts old rock music to a grid and compares the original recording with the "perfect" version. He does "Runnin With The Devil" by Van Halen and it's so interesting to see how terrible the grid version is. Yes, the song ends at the same pace as it starts but it's soulless.
I'd love to hear you opinions about Jon Batiste! Just discovered this podcast - it's great!
The Gershwin quote in the piano solo is apt because I think Gershwin is the O.G. analog for this Jacob tune. Would Adam say that Rhapsody in Blue is "too perfect" because its through-composed, orchestrated, etc.? Just a thought.
Kind of a random question, but anyone knows what brand Adam's sweatshirt is? I think I want one like this.
What is the opening track to your vid? thanks!
I love that Adam seems to be saying that he needs a little dirt in his sandwich when it comes to this piece of music. I do, too, I’m an OG and who grew up with Pat Metheny Group as my main Jazz/Rock/Misc. Fusion Group focus and remember, Herbie had “Rock It” which became a Pop Hit; Chick Corea, etc. I don’t know when Jacob recorded this but it’s looking like he’s making a statement about the moment we’re living in, present or immediate “Post-Lockdown” era and he’s showing that we can still bring the fun, we’ve got the technology and the tools, we can go all out and include everyone plus the kitchen sink. If he’s not trying to make that statement, then yes. It’s too much. Just because you have all the tools doesn’t mean you should use them all. Truth be told, I just walked around listening while this was on, I wasn’t watching. I always listen first, even if a video is present. That’s the test, but Jacob is a product of his time, and since he’s 28, that maturity is about to kick in immediately and we’ll see his creations start to take space and breath…unlike this comment I just wrote. LOL!! 😂😂😂 I loved this episode and it was great to hear and see Take 6. Last but not least, “All Night Long” did NOT need to be remade.
'Jazz discussed'
Please put the name of the artist you react on on the description of the video
brilliant mind, but the whole vibe and aesthetic is pretty cringe.
yall need to react to will hill he is not much of an ig but more of a new og
Jacob Collier is a fireworks show where the whole show is the finale.
I can't bare it ...
idk, his stuff is exhausting. For me, a visual representation of every recording stem isn't impressive, kind of distracting from the music. Closing your eyes, and listening to this and the Lionel Richie version, which makes you happier? And while I'm needlessly piling on (lol sorry bro), I find the flashing of the chord names and clips of playing 26 instruments kinda cringe, looks like some insecure skill signaling.
while i agree with all of this, he's so much better now regarding to this, he does great restrained ballads and puts on an amazing live show
Didn't Miles say less is more? Art is about pacing, development, tension and release, a vibe not everything but the kitchen sink. While Jacob is a brilliant technician, his lack of experience of playing/interacting *LIVE *with other musicians shows in his music.
Don't be a hater bruh
Where’s the soul? Feels untethered to a cohesive cultural expression- perhaps an outcropping of the global stage that is CZcams/the online music ecosystem.
Perfect is boring. I appreciate Jacob's genius but his music most bores me. Also I prefer KISS in my musical tastes be it Classical, Jazz, other styles I prefer small groups where you hear the interaction of the musicians. One of my favorite sounds is sax and drum duo. So appreciate Jacob, but rarely listen to him.
The arrangement of this tune is like the photo shop of music. A shame. A regular picture would have been awesome.
This episode contains hurtful and triggering jazzsplaining.
very meh.
Collier is a supercompetent all rounder. A genius he is not - at least not yet. There is no part of his music that exceeds the passion, intensity, tastefulness, inventiveness, or any number of other qualities, of any of his influences. That to me would mark his work as genius. The vocal harmony is perhaps the only really impressive element of his music but even that sounds too controlled and derivative of earlier vocal harmony groups. As for the density of the arrangements, it lacks any kind of unifying thread, it feels like he just threw everything including the kitchen sink at it, and lost the core groove, vibe, song, melody or whatever. Think about the original - Lionel Richie is not a genius, but by comparison the passion and energy in his performance, especially the charcter of his voice, is the kind of thing that approaches genius. Listen to a really great Stevie Wonder recording and by comparison you immediately hear a unifying feel that characterises the piece as a single integrated piece of music that is human, humane, and expresses a coherent whole. To me, Collier’s music is very easily identified as having been composed on a computer. It feels like a patchwork quilt, like a 1000 overdubs pieced together. Geniuses in music like any other art, including jazz, are very very rare. For me, his music sounds incredibly immature. I do think he will improve and learn what is lacking, to bring some focus, to know when to go wild and when to cool it down. He is a long way from this. Maybe then he can become a genius?
He's clearly a genius. And Herbie Hancock thinks so and Quincy and Steve Vai and Pat Metheny.
Jacob's live show is completely different, with much improvisation and music in the moment.
@@frankpratte8358 imo , both he and Justin Lee Schultz are the 2 guys who truly are geniuses , freaks of the highest order. Keep an eye on JLS , to me , he has the soul genius as much as the obvious academic genius
@@gr8tbigtreehugger I disagree. The live show i went to was mostly track after track, with the same audience participation as I've heard on youtube before. I thought the sound was a wall and very noisy overall, it was just too much as live music. Could barely tell the notes apart except in songs i know by heart. The band are all skilled musicians and sound great on their own.
You cant "become" genious. I mean that by definition. How he uses what he has and does he leave a mark on music history is what we are asking
I'm done. I tried. Long time, hard core Jazz fan here. I can't take the lame, tired, jive Peter Martin here. He tries so hard to be glib. Goodbye.
the song is terrible. jacob collier is a symptom of everything wrong with jazz education and social media music culture.
I hear you in many ways. No denying his talent though.