Ethics of Long-Range Hunting - How Far Is Too Far?
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2023
- In this video, John discusses the subjective nature of long-range hunting ethics. How to determine your ethical limit. The importance of understanding wind conditions and bullet dynamics. And his personal experiences with long-range hunting.
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"MDT", "Long Range Hunting", "Precision Shooting", "Hunting Ethics", "John Finch", "Rifle Chassis", "Hunting Accessories", "Shooting Better", "Wind Conditions", "Bullet Dynamics", "Hunting Experiences", "Hunting Guide", "Ethical Hunting", "Responsible Hunting", "Shooting Techniques", "Hunting Tips", "Outdoor Sports", "Shooting Sports", "Rifle Hunting", "Precision Rifles". - Zábava
Problem is a lot guys massively over estimate their ability to shoot long range. I like what Jon said, consistently doing it each time on the first round, thats the magic. But that target needs to be on a new range, in different wind and environmentals for that to be accurate simulation of hunting. Great vid! Jon is a legend!
Also plenty of people overly estimating their hits kind of like fishing. How many times have you heard someone say I hit a deer at 200yrd/m and they show you where it happened? Then the distance is closer to 75 or 25. My only issue is with longer shots is identification and lawful shots. Last thing you want is to plug a buck/doe in a county that has restrictions on bucks/does, spread, or spikes. Looks good through your 3-9x scope but when you get to the animal and it does not measure up or incorrect identification of doe/buck. If you can make the shot that is great just make sure you identify correctly as no one wants a game warden up in their business.
Keep the distance, conditions and position limited to what your 100% confident in from previous practice and you'll be ethical.
10" seems a bit big and may lead to overconfidence. For a deer I'd go with 6" and moose 8". Also, don't forget the target will likely be moving and I know my heart rate and breathing certainly get thrown off more when I unexpectedly come across a beautiful bull moose than it does with a steel plate. That's why I also train by deliberately throwing my breathing off by doing a bit of a biathlon around my range (walk, run, bike, anything to throw your breathing off) so I practice slowing my heart rate and breathing to make shots in tough situations. In the end, if you can't shoot it repeatedly at the range with a cold bore then don't shoot it hunting. There's no substitute for practice.
It’s all about environmentals. On a windy day and a shot with a steep angle, awkward shooting position 400 may be my limit. On a calm day in a comfortable prown shooting position 800 to 1000.
I won't say a distance. But I do think that if the animal can't smell you, or doesn't perceive you as a threat because you're so far away, let alone even knows you're there. That might be too far.
Don't forget the travel time it takes you to come down off the ridge you're shooting from, cross the massive canyon and climb up the ridge where your animal was shot. If a bear or other predator takes your game before you get there, your still legally obligated to tag it no matter what's left. I also think your legally obligated to tag it if it ran away unrecovered
Good job!!
I'm pretty sure there's no ethical dilemma with hunting paper and steel which is all I shoot.
It is up to the individual to determine how far is too far and to have the discipline to adhere to that line. Ive been called unethical for humanely dispatching animals further than most would ever try on a target, but also cleaned up the messes of the average John Q Public who shouldn't be even attempting a shot on an animal at any distance with a rifle. But nobody batts an eye over the latter since it is common practice and socially accepted.
Hitting the target is one thing, but understanding if your bullet will properly expand and do its job is another.
Also very true points
I was thinking the exact same when searching videos. I always read 1800 fps is about the min for most bullets. I would not want to pencil through an animal and have him in the next zip code by the time I made my way to where I supposedly hit him. Even worse if it's a bad shot and/or a shot taken late in the day.
@@anonymousf454 I use the 200 grain terminal ascent and they report reliable expansion down to 1400 fps.
@@briansteele1378 Wow that is awesome....but that brings another concern.....do they hold up well if you have to make a really close shot on, like if you jumped a buck?
@@anonymousf454 absolutely, it’s a bonded core for the first half, then a solid copper shank for the second half with a g1 bc of 0.608. It’s damn near the perfect hunting bullet
Train fundamentals. Train with your gear. Train your mind and body. When you are wildly consistent, train some more.
Same goes for head shots. Many people do not have any knowledge of the anatomy of the brain stem and sinuses, or the location and size of each within different species.
I see Piet is in here, too. Excellent and he is an experienced long range hunter, regularly shooting past 100 yards and more. He even had a hunt recently for a sweep back that I watched and he hit dead center of the target zone and the bull ran off. He tracked and found him and put another one in. That is ethical. Both shots were ethical.
I think the ethical shot is whatever you and your rig are capable of. Say you are dead calm on the trigger and read wind well all of the time. If the rifle has a 1 MOA dispersion, then only shoot distances where that dispersion is inside of the target zone. Also, just because the rifle is 1 MOA doesn't mean the first round is 1 MOA from POA.
That is also why I dial distance instead of zeroing MPBR. There is dispersion in the rifle, more dispersion in the chosen rise and fall. You could completely miss at below 400 yards. Therefore, I dial distance and hold wind and I will be less than 1 inch of the POA.
As for the supposition that guys are shooting past their competence, I have not personally seen it. But for those who do, our stern consternation will not change them.
There was even one guy who said we should not shoot past 400 yards. That he had killed past 1200 yards but never an animal that far. That implies he was a military sniper. So, that means it's ethical to shoot over 1k yards at humans but not at game animals? Why are humans beneath animals? So, I am confused on that.
But the advice here is the best. Practice at your level of competence until it is regularly repeatable. Then increase a bit at a time. Doing well at 100 yards does not now mean you are an expert at 1k.
Because a wounded soldier absorbes a lot of ressources (medevac, medic, surgeon, hospital staff, hospital bed, repatriation, ongoing care, rehab, maybe psychologists, maybe a pension) so the aim is to incapacitate as many enlisted enemies as possible - wounded may be better than dead even. And you don't have to recover them (although I believe they would do dead checks on high value targets, but whatever). It also has a psychological impact on the enemies squad/friends etc. which reduces their combat effectiveness.
An animal is for harvesting aka. must be dead, so quick & safe is more ethical. It also reduces adrenaline dump and makes (a quick) recovery more likely (increasing meat quality, you wouldn't want it to spoil or loose the animal).
My standard is hitting a 10cm (4in) airgun target with very high confidence.
And I can do that out to about 200m.
Could you have Jon go over the details of that rifle please?!
Don't forget, target size should shrink at distance, to account for the amount the animal can move while the bullet is in flight.
I don’t typically hunt because I prefer to shoot at extended ranges and I would never want to injure an animal (dead, don’t take the shot, or clean miss). On the rare occasion that I’ve been convinced to go hunting, I’ve only ever taken head shots - if I’m no confident enough to hit the animal in the head, I shouldn’t be squeezing the trigger.
Distance isn’t the first number you should be using as a go no-go indicator of your ability to hit a target, wind speed is. And the combination of wind speed and distance dictates if you’re sending a round down range or not.
When I observe big game, the amount they can move in a single second amazes me and will turn a perfect shot into a reprehensible one. Time of flight and the ability of the animal to move are the limiting factors so far as I'm concerned. Even with Hornady's factory 6.5 PRC ELD-X load it takes over one second to reach 800 yards.
100% Flight time should always be the limiting reagent. We can control for a ton of variables, but not that one. Our obligation to the game is to get as close as possible close & make it clean.
Ethics in harvesting an animal are big for me but something I heard makes total sense to me;”practice double what you do in hunting”. Adrenalin, fast heart beat and mental calmness, or not, WILL affect everyone when it comes to taking the shot. If you can’t hit steel at 1moa at 1000yds, stick to 500(or less) and in. Ego shots have no place in ethical hunting.
Is there a remaining energy rule of thumb?
Yes, make sure the foot pounds of energy imparted by your projectile isn't far below the weight of the game
Before we can argue the ethics of "long range" hunting, We have to aggrege on what constitutes "long range". We also have to agree on a universal definition of "ethical hunting". (I'll save you the trouble, it doesn't exist) I have had people argue that a 200 yard shot wasn't ethical because long range killing isn't hunting. I have had people make the same argument at 600 yards.
My second point is when we are talking about ethics, are we talking about mine or yours. What is or isn't ethical is not universal.
Third and final, If you TRUELY have the skill, the experience, and time to set up the shot, the distance is what it is.
IF YOU TRUELY KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE THAT COLD BORE FIRST ROUND VITAL ZONE HIT, DROP THE HAMMER. IF NOT, HAVE THE SELF DISCIPLINE TO EITHER GET CLOSER, OR LET THE ANIMAL WALK.
My hunting rifle is also my PRS match rifle so taking pigs at 600y plus is pretty easy
Know your limit and stay within it, This question has a different answer for everybody..
You can't blanket answer this question for all hunters
Keep mine 400 and in. The bullet will still have plenty of energy and velocity on animals to function properly.
I only engage between 69 and 420 yards. It's not just ethical, its dank af.
I limit myself to 100 metres or under. I'm limited by laziness, and I don't want to walk beyond that to recover the animal. 🤔
Una pregunta, ya se que está fuera del tema que trata este video pero me ayudaría a decidirme en una compra, que trípode es el que estás usando en el video.
Respecto al tema del vídeo yo creo que es ético siempre y cuando se cumplan los requisitos necesarios, una muerte noble del animal, y la recuperación exitosa del cadáver del mismo
💯
I like to take game at 50 when rifle hunting. No wind or elevation hold. Just send it and go get the sled.
Use a bow at that point lol, better season
@@acesonflush346 I really don’t like to track. @ 50 or 75 yards with rifle or bp I can be super precise and feel really good about my shot. With a bow there’s more variables because of arrow speed. I’m capable of taking a deer at 3 or 400 yards with a rifle, or 40 to 50 yards with a bow, but I like the level of precision and the short blood trail from short range rifle or bp hunting. I’ll bow hunt late season if I come up empty handed during gun season, but that hasn’t happened yet.
If the animal can move out of the absolute kill zone during the time of flight of the projectile then you are too far away. All the arguments are based on a stationary kill zone, but for example, a deer can easily move more then 36 inches between the trigger press and the bullet arrival if the range is 700 yds (approx 1 second). If the animal does not move then you are just lucky. However, if the animal were to move at the time of trigger press you could miss totally. With a bow or other subsonic projectile the deer can hear the twang of the bow and move enough at 100 yds distance to cause a miss. Excess long range arguments are just people trying to rationalize their miss behavior.
It is Long Range Hunting for wildlife not long range shooting long range shooting either encompasses Target or enemy engagement quite a difference and yeah unfortunately it will be settled some day probably sooner than later because people cannot police themselves and laws will have to be made for safety reasons
A guy that tells me he stalked an animal an shot it under 30 meters is more impressive than someone that shoots it at anything further than 100
targets don't move. At 600 yards there is plenty of time for an animal to take a step, let alone 800 to 1000.
If there is a chance you'll miss don't take the shot!! You owe it to your quarry
I just watched a video by impact shooting from South Africa and the host Pete is supposed to be South Africa’s top shooter he shot a Sable bull around 460 yards and didn’t go down had to chase it all over to finish it off. Obviously he didn’t intend for the animal to suffer but it did
no less. There is too many variables when hunting and shooting from field positions I’m not going to judge another fellow Hunter, but I think at the very least we owe it to the animals to kill them humanely and quickly, so we should judge ourselves and not shoot beyond our capabilities.
It also depends on the down range energy of the bullet. It takes about 1500 ft/lbs to drop an elk. The .308 drops below that at around 350 yards. Long range requires the .30 cal magnums and experience at wind/environmental shooting.
Ironically, there's many videos where guys take game under 100 yards on hunting ranches and all the comments are, "That's not hunting, that's shooting animals in the petting zoo!"
RAD!
Once you're at a range where the animal's senses are no longer registering you as a threat, meaning you can move all you want, make all the noise you want, and take all the time you want, you're no longer hunting, you're target shooting at a live animal. An 8" group at 1000 yards will always be more impressive to me than an elk killed at the same distance that never knew someone was there. There's also the issue of bullet performance at range. Bullets (depending on type, caliber, and weight) require a certain amount of energy to perform as designed on game, especially if they hit bone. If you're at a range where the energy required for that to happen is not there, then there's a good chance you'll lose an animal or work really, really hard to recover it.
I'll say this objectively, hunters should be able to make a 300yrd or less shot on game. Beyond that it's subjective to skill and confidence
My Opinion;
If you can't get within 400 yards open terrain 300 obstructed, its not your animal.
Thats if you're a good shot on a still animal.
Quit fatally wounding animals and then losing them on your forever hike to find them. BE ETHICAL you're not starving
ummmmm.....How ethical is it for "hunters" to place a pile of feed in a meadow and wait for the deers to come to them? or the "hunting" resorts that literally drive you to whatever species you are there to "hunt"? seems like just grocery shopping with extra steps to me.
Shoot what you are confident with and who cares what other people think .. that’s why we practice
I worked in a couple homes where I've seen their trophy rooms. lions and tigers and water buffaloes and Elks and all kinds of animals. It's always been my contention that those animals should chase you around in the woods first and then you get to shoot them.
Yes, completely unethical.
Unlike going to the grocery store to buy meat right?
I think you guys miss the point when talking about "ethics." First, start with reading B & C standard on 'fair chase' hunting. In probably 90% of the talks I hear on ethics, it is always about distance & nothing said about the animal being pursued. You said if you hadn't taken the shot at ? distance, you wouldn't have gotten the animal. That's because the animal outsmarted you. We are seeing a generation of lazy hunters dependent on technology and no respect for hunting the animal on their turf. Instead of seeing how far you can shoot, why not see how close you can get. Shooting an animal at 1/4 mile or more is just ridiculous, no respect for the animal whatsoever. Let me take just one item away from you and you wouldn't be able to hunt! Take away batteries - anything that has a battery you can't use. Most guys couldn't function in the woods today without battery operated equipment. The art & skill of hunting is lost. Respect for our prey is lost. Go target shoot if you want to ELR shoot, but try to beat your quarry on their own grounds!
Our stance should be that we support all legal forms of hunting and recreational shooting. We know that there are some folks that are unethical, and we don’t support poor hunting practices, but every hunter must make their own decisions about what is ethical in their hunt. As long as the animal being harvested is taken quickly and respectfully, we aren’t here to judge. Some think that bow hunting is unethical, others say muzzleloading isn’t ethical, and obviously your stance is that long range shooting is not ethical. The reality is that a hunter that takes his profession seriously will have our support and we hope that hunters have as many opportunities to enjoy the great outdoors as often as possible
No hunting is ethical
And why are you on this site and making comments about something you don’t understand?
Ethics in hunting is a dumb topic. When we are talking about meat on the table for your family ethics go out the window and anything that makes the animal bleed well means suscess cause meat gets on the table.
If your a sport hunter for horns on the wall your just a cruel person and have no ethics in the first place. Rifle hunters or mainly none hunters who watch Disney movies to much think all shots end in a dropped animal with no pain....that ain't real.
you should have to hunt with a spear 1st. if you can get it with a spear then you should be allowed to use a gun. 🤷🏻♂️
Fortunately we manage game based on science and ethical, efficient methods of killing animals and not based on contrived, romantic concepts of fairness. The intent is a kill; not a fight. There is no intention of a level playing field, but there is a nearly universal desire for a quick death of the animal being harvested.
dumb as hell
heart pumping, game moving, non sub-MOA gun at the ready, I'd say anything beyond 200 meters (roughly 220 yds) is a realistic chance not to hit a vital area that will reliably drop the game.