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Slurs in Homestuck [Funk McLovin]
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- čas přidán 13. 03. 2021
- CW: Slurs
PATREON: / funkmclovin
TWITTER: / bigfunkyj
For 2021, I'm posting one video every Sunday at 5PM. 42 Sundays Left!
THE DOC: docs.google.co...
THE THREAD: / debunking_the_hussie_i...
![What PR? A response to Sarah Z. [Funk McLovin]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BkrdQZCM5-Q/mqdefault.jpg)
RIP to people who didn't listen past 2:39
jesus ok i get that.
but god damn was i seriously so fuckign intensely hoping u were gonna be done with that the next second holy _shit_
Funk my attention span is so short you cant just do this to me
an ad played at that exact moment
Rip me, I almost placed out bc I could not handle 17 minutes of that
lol didn't Liston pass 2:39 .... no trolling
"andrew hussie" being a content warning is my favorite part of the video
its the stupidest thing 😭
@@just_squid thats why its funny
Being autistic myself I genuinely thought karkat was being fully genuine and kind in his use of calling her autistic, so from that point on I just accepted that she was autistic and not being insulted. Because of how nepeta is I really thought that was just an observation john had. I love nep and I would gladly claim her. I know I sound silly but a lot of the insults and stereotypes flew over my head, I only got a few and missed like half the offensive jokes. Heck I didn’t even get all the ones derogatory towards communities I’m in .
From what i know ant nepeta i think thats valid lol + if to you his use of the word sounds genuine, then id say thats a valid reading, though many others may not share it
Pretty sure that every homestuck character is severely neurodivergent. I thought Karkat was being genuine too. I'm also Autistic and don't take much offence to the slur, nor can I recall the word "autistic" being used in an insulting way any other time in the comic so I just assumed she was actually autistic and everything else was in one ear out the other. (Sorry for necropost)
Yeah, about the nepeta thing, I'm autistic too and I agree with you on that
"hussie doesn't care about your feelings"
Wow, never would've guessed, not like he has a track record of trolling and insulting his own fanbase
yeah lol
If this is supposed to make me not like Hussie, I have to warn you that I've heard lots of dumb shit about the fanbase.
@@BirdRaiserE he's sexist, fatphobic, racist, etc. a whole lot of terrible stuff he's done, not just the trolling and insulting his fanbase, he is quite literally a terrible human being
@@BirdRaiserE The creator of this x thing is an early-newgrounds-bred asshole, but the community around it is cringe as hell, therefore it's ok for him to be
What's sad is that in the beginning thats what we loved about him. The vibe was different, he was doing it but it was with an air of everyone being in on the joke, and never at the expense of the comic as a whole. At a certain point it flipped. He started to clearly hate the people who read his story.
me: the r slur is probably the worst slur they're gonna use
dave's blog and future arachnigrip: *thats where youre wrong, bucko.*
Theyre all equally bad. Theyre all insults based on discriminating on unchangable traits. We shouldnt rank slurs from most harmful to least harmful, since they can intersect (you can be a black, queer, disabled person). Its like saying that we should deal with sexist slurs first because sexism is eperienced in all cultures.
searched daves blog. REGRET
@@1cbear745 what the hell did dave do
edit: what the fuck did simon do to you dave
what happened
@@theharvinator all i know is that dave said the n word and the r slur
I think alot of this defensiveness comes from this culture of moral purity where the media you consume or attach yourself to is equated to who you are as a person.
I can't believe with all this discussion of Hussie's use and intent around the r-word there was no mention of his old website/comic's name, teamspecialolympics. That's almost even more offensive.
I’m an autistic girl and I love Nepeta and homestuck!
Her little moments in Hiveswap made me feel seen! I was like, heh I do that!
same im getting tested i was diegnosed with adhd but I relate to both karkat and nepeta so much :3
@@jaxisdumb1139 adhd isnt part of the autism spectre tho
Spectrum
Same!!
so basically, let people enjoy things but those people you're possibly expressing discomfort to should acknowledge what you're specifically talking about? sounds legitimately reasonable
karkat & trolls in general are pretty literal. it's an expressed point that they don't really *do* sarcasm. karkat throws around a lot of really creative insults but that was the only time he's said autistic. i interpreted karkat saying nepeta is "some autistic girl in a cave" to mean she is literally an autistic girl, & the insult specifically is that she lives in a cave & not a house.
also, autistic was never used as an insult the same way the r slur was until around 2015-16. going by the dates on the urban dictionary page for autistic it seems like it wasnt used as an insult until the late 2010s
Autistic has been an insult on 4chan for over a decade now, and "autistic catgirl" was a very specific meme Hussie was aping, from the same circles.
@@revlarmilion9574 I didn't know that
It's true that the autistic catgirl stereotype was going around, but it may also be notable that Hussie said that Karkat's description of Nepeta in that conversation wasn't using autism as an insult.
Though of course, that doesn't mean it should be above criticism.
@@pugjuice8462 Karkat is Karkat, he insults people, and it's made very clear he's annoyed by Nepeta (at least at the start of the session), yes she may actually be autistic but as an autistic person myself I've been in many situations where people used autism as an insult against me, the same way people have used gay and trans as insults against me, despite those also being things that I am
Future arachnidsGrip was banned from the memo
HEHEHE
YES EXACTLY,, I KNEWW SOMEONE WWAS GOIN TO NOTICE EVVENTUALLY
PLEASE I FORGOT ABOUT THAT- can't wait to see what he has to say ngl ;-;
And the fact that Karkat said "It should've said HAG instead" shows the F slur is not present in troll society, because trolls aren't homophobic
@@cdmilkycommon (? ) troll society win
and during pride month,,,
For a slur removed version of Homestuck and all of Hussie's work, I'd recommend the excellent Unofficial Homestuck Collection (probably the best way to read it since the end of flash) with the Slur Replacement Patch.
You think somebody is going to make a parody of homestuck by adding a whole butch of slurs to homestuck like every single page is litter with slurs with every single sentence filled with slurs
@@johnnyaugust5015 dang why don’t you make it
@@jellykissclover sadly I don't have any experience with making a fan comic much less editing the original webcomic so I wouldn't know where to start
if theres no slurs then whats the point
@@reconboy0454 what?
The term "Slur Remplacement" is still one of the funniest things to come out of this
Like i cannot fathom how funny the content warnings list at the start of the unoficial homestuck archive followed by the existence of "The Homestuck Slur Remplacement Project"
okay fag
dave strider slur sayer
he can reclaim em :))
he canonically says the n word on andrew hussie's roleplay blog so you'd be right
@@emailing
He did?
@@tsg_frank5829 yep, hussie used to maintain a roleplay blog for dave and on one of them he says the n word lol. it's archived on the unnoficial homestuck reader but I'm unsure if the blog itself is still up
It’s so weird to me Andrew Hussie feels so dis attached to what he’s writing like he acts all high and mighty saying the characters will take the blame but when I read homestuck and something bad happens I go damn it huuuuussie like he knows I’m gonna throw him under the bus and not John right I just find it so weird that the characters who have conversations based off his real life say something bad people got kinda mad and he was like it’s the characters fault like what?
not sure how important it is as I don't think it changes the message of the video that much, but the "types of babies" author note was from the original run of homestuck physical prints Topatoco did back in 2011, more specifically book 2 page 94. The author notes from that print where carried over to the VIZ prints so they could crank out the first few books instead of having to commentary it all over again.
In a way though it could be argued that he did acknowledge this passage again by reading over it and going "yea that's still good !" and giving it off to VIZ. not EVERY passage made the jump though which means there was some form of like, review ??? Or maybe he didn't look over the old commentary directly, there is no way to know really unless Andrew wakes up one day and decides to start giving straight and direct answers to questions.
oh i thought that was newly written lol, shame
yeah andrew hussie giving us straight and direct answers to any questions is not going to happen
The thermian argument about how the use of the word can be explained away by the fact that the characters are 13 year old kids is very interesting and I think it works in some cases but not with Homestuck. I think examples of it working are usually found in satire, like the movie Jojo Rabbit. Many of the characters in Jojo Rabbit are nazis and therefore say terrible things, but it works because the movie makes it clear that those characters are in the wrong and that what they're saying is bad. Another maybe slightly more controversial example that I think still works is with the movie Tropic Thunder. Robert Downey Jr plays an actor who is in blackface to play a character. Other characters point out that this is wrong throughout the movie and it's clear that the joke isn't that blackface is funny, the joke is the fact that he is dumb and racist enough to think that what he's doing is ok. But in Homestuck, the characters go unchecked, there's not even a hint that what they're saying is wrong. The way Homestuck is written, it's presented as normal or even funny to say the r slur. I think this argument would only work for Homestuck if Andrew Hussie had written those parts with a satirical undertone that made people who use the r slur out to be the butt of the joke, but I think it's clear that that wasn't his intention.
Why would it not go unchecked?? Have you heard a young teen or adult talk amongst themselves?? It’s hardly pc and a lot of the time no one bats an eye
@@-Lola. well that's kind of my point. It makes sense in universe that they would talk that way and that it would go unchecked. But the argument doesn't really work in my opinion if the characters go unchecked because what really matters is the message being presented. In the other examples I gave, the message is a positive or at least neutral one so the argument makes sense. But with homestuck the end message with the characters going unchecked ends up being that it's okay to say the word. So that's why the argument doesn't hold weight in my opinion, it doesn't really matter that it makes sense in universe.
@@ezrenficker4502 Well if someone is so immature that that’s their take away then maybe they just shouldn’t read Homestuck. It’s not commenting on whether it is or isn’t okay to say the word. Some say it is, some say it isn’t. I don’t think it’s Hussie’s responsibility to tell you what you can and can’t say tbh
@@-Lola. i think the point is less that the characters are supposed to be the pinnacle of morality and more that they say shitty stuff (thats pretty standard for preteens in 2009) and it serves no real narrative purpose. yes it makes sense that 13 year olds are gonna be assholes and say slurs in 2009 but it's less reflective of the characters or their future arcs and more reflective of andrew hussie's vocabulary at the time. the man clearly knows a lot of words (or, alternatively, has a thesaurus on him at all times) but he chose to use slurs when they really weren't needed. the video even provides some examples as to how these slurs could easily be removed or replaced. and as much as AH wants to insist that the characters exist independently of himself (which is a fun narrative tool and it really works in HS's context), at the end of the day they are his creations and besides some vague dialogue later in the comic that's general enough to mean anything, they never really own up to saying these slurs and you're kinda just left to either accept HS as a product of its time or criticize it.
@@m.e.p.7223 They don't have to serve a purpose outside of characterization. It's simply in their vocabulary and that's all that's really needed. There doesn't have to be a massively complex and in depth reason for every single little creative decision. Sometimes it's just a matter of how he chooses to characterize his cast of characters
1:18 "first lets talk about mark twain."
*shows picture of albert einstein*
even with the thermian argument, i would still tell a 13 year old that its not okay to use the r slur so casually
yeah anyone who hears a 13yo say that should be discouraging them. but thats probably still different than how you should do so with an adult. i definitely wouldnt hold it Against a kid the way i would a grown up, which is probably what people mean when they try to argue "that theyre just kids" bluh bluh bluh
@@WithASock oh i agree with that statement, but i feel like a lot of the time when people see a kid saying the r slur or ableist things as jokes they say "ah well theyre just a kid", dont do anything to tell the kid how that hurts others, and move on assuming they'll outgrow it on their own
@@partyinthecloudkingdom yeah thats probably tru just going off of my high school memories :/
As i read deeper into HS, I realize Hussie has a problem wirting disability IN GENERAL. But especially mental disability. All of meenah's interactions with the disabled dancestors include her making fun of their disabilties in some way, but especially mituna who she says she rather be dead than talk to, even tho she defends him from Cronus. But he doesnt seem to be as bad at handling physical disabilty than mental disability, but only because the physically disabled characters get cool upgrades or work arounds for their disabilites. But the characters actively make fun of or insult Nepeta, Mituna, and Caliborn because you cant fix mental disability. Hell, when he talks directly with Caliborn, he makes fun of his learning disability. You really cant say that the use of the r-slur and Homestucks general ableism or isolated to the characters with that in mind.. Its why I like HS in spite of Hussie,.
One of mituna’s interaction with meenah and kerire (hopefully i typed the names correctly) really disproves the idea that it was a “DiFfReNt TiMe” and “ThEy DiDn’T kNoW iT wAs A sLuR” , because in that interaction meenah express the same ideas that you mentioned, and then kerire appears,who is spoused to be a strawmaned analog for “SJWs”, talks about about how mituna existing is offensive to people with disabilities, meaning Andrew knew that people will react in a similar manner to the way mituna was characterized but instead of characterizing him differently or at least make other characters react to him differently he instead made it seem like anyone criticizing them for it is just an asshole who keeps insulting the people while pretending to care about minorities and their struggles, and their opinions are therefor invalid.
Frankly, I'm of the opinion that literally everyone in Homestuck is neurodivergent in some form or another. This is partly a "fuck you" to Hussie, and also just a general recognition of it, being neurodivergent myself. It's just that not all of them show the "classic" symptoms most commonly represented, and maybe not all of them were necessarily written to be mentally disabled in some way or another.
I'm pretty sure that's actually as a result of Hussie also being neurodivergent. That doesn't excuse him, but I do think it's funny that a minority group he reviled so much would leak into the writing of his characters because it was his "normal."
ok but I literally love your homestuck rambles
well, the good news is that there’s a mod for the unofficial homestuck collection that edits out the slurs. It doesn’t just remove them, it replaces them with less fucked counterparts. I’m highkey disgusted by the slurs, and the only people I see defending them are people who have never been demeaned- or never related to being demeaned- by specifically the r-slur and other similar words. But homestuck is still a worthwhile piece of literature, and I reread parts regularly.
That is part of the reason I especially hate people using the r slur to mean something is dumb like why not just say dumb or stupid? It really isn’t that hard to not use a slur.
they're literally words stop getting pressed bro
me and my friends say slurs and call each other slurs all the time and no one gives a shit
and i think that getting mad over words is retarded
I never noticed it in my first read through many years ago but recently I'm doing a reread with a friend who's reading for the first time and it honestly shocked me how often it was used. I'm glad you made this video cause I, personally, have never seen anyone discuss this issue in homestuck
I'm surprised you didn't bring up the f-slur being used in HS. (It was used by Dave towards the beginning referring to the outfits mailmen wear if I remember correctly)
karkat also used it towards vriska in s scene after she leaves their chatroom. it was so random but its hinted he has no clue what it means
Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised about that, Dave reeked of internalized homophobia during the first acts
(Future)aracnidsGrip
Homestuck is great. I love Homestuck. I am a neurodivergent person. I can enjoy Homestuck even if it has flaws.
IE: I don’t approve of the words used and it is wrong. However, that doesn’t mean Homestuck is terrible. ✨Nuance is key.✨
That’s a really good way to look at it actually. Im nd too, and I hate the slurs, but I still really like Homestuck
This comment right here.
Yeah hearing the slurs does suck but it doesn’t ruin the comic
finally. now i will find out a slur for trolls so i can make a homestuck version of the franklin roast. "don't hate me cause im beautifull _____"
wriggla
Chumbucket is a canonical slur for seadwellers >:]
@@caliginousquadrant413 that must make spongebob hella awkward
@@lambchopperdeluxe8181 LMAOOO
Maybe Eridan can be franklin
I'd love to hear more [monkey eeks] for bleeping out text
I missed the video's first word so you had me in the first half not gonna lie
I realiz now immediately after I sent the comment that I wasn't clear enough as to my intent so for the sake of clarification: I agree with the statements you made in the second half of the video, not the quote you were trying to disprove.
I HAVE BEEN WAITING TO HEAR SOMEONE REALLY TALK ABOUT THIS
SAAAAAAAME-
I KNOWWWWW
I am sooo glad for this video cuz the lack of talk abt the r word in homestuck (and in media in general) really killed my passion for it. No one told me that it had problematic elements, the only problems ever mentioned would be the fandom at most (Hell, Sarah Z’s video mentions some of the racism and the ableism of Tavros, but nothing about the r slur, it was way to generous to Hussie). It’s almost as if ableism is seen as the lesser of all -isms, but it’s just as, if not more, present in media as racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. And what’s worse is that when you bring it up (particularly on Reddit) the idea is shot down HARD. Ableism can completely be used well (in Jessica Jones, there’s a villain who compares the term gifted for the mutants to special for disabled people and uses freak for the former and the r slur for the latter, and Jessica asks what the gifted or mentally challenged ever do to hurt her). It’s implied what she said is wrong because Jessica uses the more polite mentally challenged. It frames the villain as a bigot. You can’t simply have a bad person say a slur, the story HAS TO acknowledge that it’s bad, explicitly or implicitly.
Hussie lampshades his use of the slur with characters like Kankri (who is a gross simplification of his detractors) and Dirk & Eridian (or whatever the fuck his name is). It’s all passive agressive. But I like how Bryan Lee O’Malley handled Scott Pilgrim. He used the r slur in it, but in the newer books he removed it, in his reread of SP on insta he blocked out the word and mentioned that it was changed, and in the reunion for SP vs the world the replaces the word.
I do like Homestuck but it annoys me how the fandom blatantly ignores the ableism. I want to enter the fandom space, but I want to be able to enjoy it without having to deal with the ableism (cuz the subreddit is pretty ableist).
How do you like, even exist in society without having a breakdown every time someone speaks?
@@guyferrari8124 Are you ok? Like, how did you get that?
@@eattheasslikeitsgrass5113 Because if you are so offended by even the smallest things like this that you have to write an entire rant, I can’t fathom how you function in the real world
@@guyferrari8124
Youre comment was just weirdly brazen and rude. its weird to criticize me specifically for writing a rant about this when several other people in the comments wrote their own rants in a video thats essentially an essay. You completely missed the point. Like it flew over your head. Im upset taht ableism eists in our world and not a lot of talk about it. And did you not read the part where I said that slurs can be used if its used in a context that shows that they are negative. And the part where I said I like homestuck, despite it? I can still be offended by somthing and simulteanously be crtiical of a work. But I doubt that you can read anything critically if "wah wah, I cant handle society" is what you took away from my rant.
Also, people have triggers, people have trauma. I know a shitload of people (myself included) who have panic attacks pon hearing the r slur. And it really isnt uncommon to hear it just walking in a school. So should we just stay uncomfortable, for people like you? I f I can still manage to like Homestuck despite that and so can many oters, we can function in a society. I highly doubt that youve NEVER been offended by anything, youre offended by me expressing myself now.
@@thecassin8r OMGGG ITS CRONUS? HO MANY BITCHES YOU GOT YET?
This is a great and well put together video, I'm glad that the doc was mentioned, honestly, the biggest problem with that doc is the way some people have used it, I've seen some people go around telling people not to read homestuck and that its terrible that have hardly heard of it using that doc and actively demonise people for liking homestuck
I’ve encountered the same problem. I’ve drifted away from homestuck lately but when I still liked it I tried to join this discord server that had homestuck as a blacklisted topic. One (or more) of the server mods had apparently gone through my tumblr blog and seen that I had shared positive homestuck posts in the past. They DM’d me about it and sent me the Google dock as well, basically saying that if I still liked homestuck, I couldn’t be let in.
Now, I may not be a fan of homestuck now, and I was drifting a bit at the time, but I really did not like the implication and assumption that I was someone who was 100% uncritical of it and liked everything about the webcomic. It felt like I was being called a bad person who couldn’t think for themself.
@@stageplay262 honestly i would just thank them for hanging the red flags on the door. Ive learned through the internet that some people are just allergic to nuance and arent worth convincing
@@gremlinwithstickyhands3704 Yeeeeaaah... I mean, I wanted to join that discord because an artist I liked was in it (and had promoted it, hence me finding the discord in the first place), and considering some discourse that artist later got themselves involved in...
You’re absolutely right, for some people nuance just isn’t a thing and it’s best to just stay away from them.
Yeah it’s the classic people taking advantage of marginalized people to make themselves look better situation
"you might not like Homestuck anymore" bold of you to assume I ever did
Same bro
Ok that's gonna be the most long Funk McLovin's video
Your profile photo and name are actually proof a God exists.
Holy shit, I legit just popped on, right when the endcard appeared.
As someone who grew up with neurological problems. I heard the word used against me a lot, but I also saw it get used for other things. the R slur was a weird one because it was used on more abstract things like situations or items as well as people. It almost ended up evolving into the new "fuck" for people. So when I heard it in Homestuck I wasn't offended, I didn't even notice it being used half the time.
the one time I did notice was when Caliborn used it and I thought it was hilarious, because hes an asshole, so it works perfectly. As far as John using it in the early Acts, I think he was using it to express a point of frustration in a harsh enough way to get the point across, yes, it doesn't excuse it but I can see from the perspective that it was to add an emotional inflection or weight.
Before I read it my friend said “Warning there are slurs.” And I was like Alr idc and so I read it and didn’t even pay attention them, and As an autistic person who sees my self in nepeta I think personally hc her as autistic so yeah I guess.
you should talk about how hussie made extremely racist pre-homestuck drawings/comics about black people
and about how that in that content there's a character called little "lil cal"
and about how homestuck's main villian is an extremely violent, childish person of a similar name who is connected to a puppet of the exact same name
that would be a fun video i think
Also liked to mention the fact that his action toward virska, virska is a minor like 13 years old and the things he drew in the comic with him and virska was very wrong.
Why make a video when you already explained the entire thing in a paragraph?
wait whats wron g with lil cal
something i think worth noting about the hussie commentary excerpts is that the commentaries for Viz books 1 and 2, while published in 2018, actually contain the commentary from the original 3 topatoco books that were published in 2011-2013, which were before the last usage of the word in-comic. the commentary in Viz book 2 was probably actually written before/around the time of his last usage. so i believe the argument that hes still okay with using it as a joke past the endpoint of the comic *maybe* does not hold up that well. but besides that, great video as usual!
It's me or around 50% of the curses and bad words in Homestuck exists because of Karkat? I somehow love that o.o
Hey can I get your opinions with the usage of words such as idiot, crazy, moron, and the like? They were originally psychiatric terms like the R-slur, but unlike the r-slur, it is much more standard vernacular. What makes those okay? Is it the passage of time? I am asking this because I was John's age in 2009 and was super uptight about not saying anything resembling a bad word (not even replacement words like dang, gosh, dunce). Because yeah everyone was like that. Dropping it in every conversation. It felt more like using shit or fuck as a way to intensify a conversation. We knew what it meant but honestly it felt like it was on its way out from becoming a slur? and becoming a bad word like stupid or dumbass. Would love to hear your opinion of this.
It sucks that those terms have gone down the euphemism treadmill. It’s been hard for me to read things from before 1960 because of the use of those terms (Lovecraft and the writer of King in Yellow were particularly fond of it). But the words were used before they got a clinical definition. Shakespeare used idiot, imbecile was used before. Moron was the only one that was created purely for medical use (and it even comes from the Greek moros- meaning fool, so yeaaaaah fuck the doctors of that time). It’s strange that those words became commonplace but the r slur hasn’t, but maybe it was because during the time they became popularized, all forms of bigotry were heightened. But I don’t think the r slur has gone down that route because of increasing social sensibility. So the euphemism tredmill won’t be able to complete its course as long as we call out the new words being used as insults soon enough
I want to say that the R-word has never bothered me in the slightest, and I'm autistic. I've been hearing that word casually said while in high school, so I simply interpreted it as immature teen language. But, I do understand that the R-slur can offend some people, especially the differently abled.
Hussie: "Yeah I was doing it to be offensive" You: "Okay but what were you trying to say!"
the word retard (yes i can say it) was only really reclaimed recently, i can accept people saying it before 2016 because back then people used to just use retard as a word that was meant to mean ‘idiot’ or ‘stupid’, but it was also used against autistic or neurodivergent people so we reclaimed it. it may have been used a medical term before but that doesn’t mean it still is. i’m sad that autistic is becoming an insult though we can’t really reclaim it because it’s literally just what we are. thanks for reading :)
the problem with R (using that as a placeholder because I am not autistic, so I don't feel comfortable using the full word myself) is that it's a term that different autistic people have different feelings about. anyone who uses R is running the risk of offending an autistic person who engages with their work, whether they like it or not. and R is hard to reclaim in terms of this, because autism causes some people to be unable to fully understand, or consider the nuance, of why a person might use that word.
I said in another comment that I work with people who have autism, and the particular community I work with contains many people who think in kind of a black and white way. it makes them very committed to their own sense of morals, and being good by their own standards, but it makes it hard to explain morally nuanced things to them. people who process things in this way will be inevitably upset by, and alienated from, a work that uses R... because there's no amount of explaining that would make it okay to them. and it feels wrong to think that they should have to become okay with that anyway. R is already set in their minds as a word that is meant to hurt their feelings... that's probably not going to change. using R anyway just means that a creator doesn't mind driving those people away.
and I'm not saying that that's the intent, or that the creator has actual malice in their heart when they do this. I'm just saying that in this case, intent might not matter. it's just the risk you run if you want to say that. I'm not trying to be overly judgey or anything... I'm just saying that that's the reality of things, and sometimes a person's autism is the exact reason why they won't understand that you didn't mean to hurt them, which makes reclaiming a slur for this demographic trickier than most.
@@loregoblin3854 Trigger Warning
Autistic is becoming an insult? Ya language is weird man. Doesn’t matter what we do any word can and will become and insult at some point I guess and it just becomes a loop of changing it until it becomes the new one which is kinda annoying
@@RandomGuy-id2ej for what???? :/
@@oranges7691 At time of comment i wSnt a homestuck fan, i understand now. i just meant in general if it’s used as a replacement for stupid pre 2016 i mormally just let it slide
I absolutely agree the only character I fell like it would makes sense for them to use slurs would probably be Eridan who never says it.
well it makes sense for caliborn (evil) and meenah (probably still believes in eugenics despite at least not being the condesce) to use it. but they used it the Least, which points away from hussie saying anything meaningful by using the word
Eh, Eridan's an insensitive jerk but he's not blatantly crass. He at least puts on the front of being upper-class, you know?
0:44 to answer this question before watching further, homestuck ultimately has ascended being good or bad in any sense, we cant change the fact that it's one of the key components of internet culture itself, everything has some kind of obscure link to homestuck
This was genuinely a really interesting and well made video that expressed the point you were trying to make in a clear and respectful way. Honestly I’ve been thinking recently about this in particular and this video helped me gain a more knowledgeable understanding on this topic as a whole. I myself am someone who is neurodivergent but was/am a big fan of homestuck and I was kinda confused as to where this left me. Thanks for making this video!
Hussie be like: Lol, characters who i made say words that are bad are bad bc they said them not me. /hj
Alrighty, the end of the video made me understand what was going on. Like what you like but don't get mad at someone who's been hurt by the same thing you love. Not everyone like Spicy food but dont be an asshole about it
Every time I watch your Homestuck videos I feel like I’m in English class
is that good
13-year-olds talked like that during that time. Part of their dialogue. Not to mean that people shouldn't feel offended, it is indeed offensive. Hussie chose to put these offensive words in his work, and chose to not really address them in the story by having characters not call out the slurs.
It's worth mentioning that words used in this video without any concern whatsoever, such as "dumb", "idiot", and "stupid", were also originally used in a clinical sense, and then as a slur, and then became genericized. "Dumb" meant to be unable to speak, to be mute. "Idiot" meant to be incapable of enough reason as to be able to function in society. "Stupid" meant to be stunned, as in struck in the head and experiencing possible concussion symptoms (indeed the modern words "stunned" and "stupid" evolved from the same Latin word with the aforementioned original meaning). "Retarded" and "autistic" aren't even special in the sense of having undergone this process in living memory, because "dumb" was still recognizably undergoing it through the 1930s, and "idiot" still sees both clinical and slur use in some relatively anglophone parts of Asia, some 700 years on from their first being used these ways. Ableism, as is true of all forms of systemic discrimination, goes very very deep, often to the point that no good alternative exists in the language.
My theory is she made it stoned as fuck and it tasted great to her then, but when she told everyone and they were hype to try it, she couldn't back down and here we are 😂
I just KNOW this is gonna be long and I have no complaints
i think that, if youre gonna do the whole thing of "oh theyre kids, so obviously theyre gonna say weird stuff that may be problematic", then you gotta have a good reason for that, for example: in the mspfa Karkat Goes To A Convention, karkat uses the rword sometimes; but there are trigger warnings before you start reading the mspfa, and its directly acknowledged by characters, and it shows karkat having to stop saying it
so like, if your character is gonna use slur, there has to be a good enough reason, is that character an antagonist who doesnt care for anything, is it a kid that has an arc where they stop using it?
cuz i have no problem if you wanna write realistic children being edgy, but realism NEEDS the consequences of those words being used
9:45 nepeta might actually be on the spectrum
edit 11:33 I'm autistic and am intamitly familiar with the "disability"
Just reading homestuck right now and the R slur hit me like a TRUCK. I’ve been getting into it but because of this exact reasons I’m only getting into it now. I’m at the part where he’s talking with TT about his sylladex and the sburb beta and just like?? Anyways all your arguments are good. Great video.
"Family Guy" **Proceeds to show The Simpsons**
I REALLY hope this is super long, honestly
I mean, cancel culture RARELY canceled media with LGBTQ+ characters with plot relevancy.
Ahh, Homestuck in 2021. Perfection. Aged like the finest of wines!
We need to remember that even nowadays middle schoolers day r and f, alot of times they don't know better, I'm no saying that hussie didn't know better I'm just saying that "blunt" language was more acceptable and oh fuck they just said that in the video
Like, even my autistic ally dad still uses r and f sometimes and I'm not holding that against him
I think it might have had a characterization motive with Caliborn and retroactively with Dave and Karkat, otherwise I definitely agree
thank u! its pretty nice having stuff felt vaguely put into solid words :3
Ohohohoooohooohoooo yes THIS is the content. The good stuff
This is the dollar store, how good can it be?
God the irony levels in the opening stimulate the best parts of my brain.
im glad you made a video about this. i was surprised to see that the r slur was used as late as meenah's appearance. in my memories, it seemed like the word only got used a few times early on, and then got dropped all together.
now i can hardly say that this will or should make me stop being a fan of homestuck. But, and im not up to date on recent related events, i had considered myself a fan of hussie's too. and now i'm not sure if i am. Before it seemed like hussie grew up a little with his characters. diagetically i'm not gonna begrudge john or karkat for being dumb 13yo and in reality i wouldnt begrudge hussie since he had changed his language. but since that doesnt seem to be the case i think ive lost some respect for him
Lol at first I was like :/// I mean I don’t agree but I think your being kinda crappy but then I ended up really agreeing with you! I’m autistic and have been called it a lot to be put down and it always upset me that every character would say it. Still I love homestuck and it’s my special interest and nothing could change that sadly I’m in to deep lol. I can kinda get why he did it but I think it was pretty crappy.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I know in 2009 people just thought it was edgy and funny and no one took it seriously. But it’s still hurtful to see it because it caused me a lot of pain growing up. Thank you for such a good video! : )!!
Apologies if this has been pointed out, but the commentary in book one, where he uses the word again, is copied directly from his commentary in the original books published by whatpumpkin, while the comic was still ongoing, I believe in the very early 2010s. Only from intermission 1 onwards are the comments written post-homestuck. I don’t think this detracts much from your points, I just wanted to clarify the timeline on that.
I'm not sure whether that was a picture of Mark Twain or Albert Einstein or Bob Dylan--or just some generic old guy.
At this point, it could quite possibly be all three and we would never know.
Well, those people are probably angry because they've been uncritical in the past, and/or people like to appear thoughtful as opposed to thoughtless 24/7. Or they are still being uncritical today, and want to send the same message that Hussie does, due to the latter option. Most people don't like making minor decisions to cater to people's feelings, as a principle. To them, they don't think about principles, or think it's too hard to function that way or don't have the willpower to anyway.
This should be a good video, I'm ready.
late, but worth noting that the quoted book commentary from act 1 was actually written/published in 2011 and simply republished in 2018, i believe. unsure if this actually meaningfully changes anything though.
Sunday night, watching a video abou slurs in homestuck
Yeah... It's especially bad that he won't change the wording because he doesn't even have the excuse of "wanting to keep the original work as intended," as he has changed at least one offensive page to my knowledge for a similar reason. I do still love the Homestuck universe and the fan works that it has spawned. If I didn't, would I even be here? Unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where even if we get a 'sincere' apology from him, I wouldn't buy it at all.
What others did he change only one I remember changing is I’m feeling caucasian and that’s because no one wanted the kids having a confirmed race (even tho I’m pretty sure John calls bro a old white guy)
@@theblackoutexplorer2658 Worth noting that John was probably assuming Bro's race based on descriptions from Dave, since he never actually even saw a picture of the guy.
As for why Dave wouldn't correct him, well, there's no canonical ethnicities, what would Dave correct John's assumption to?
ok, sure thing kankri
Kaiba being blown away dot png
As someone who grew up in around the same time as the kids are depicted, I personally feel that it would stretch my suspension of disbelief to have the kids and their exiles talk in any other way. I know how that sounds given the comic has so much other shit that is WTF levels of fantastical that it probably invokes a "Okay THAT breaks your suspension of Disbelief, but the universe is a frog didn't?" response, but that is genuinely how I feel. Partly because those things that are completely unrealistic are treated as such, they are weird and confusing even in universe. Yet the kids and their manner of speaking was always authentic to the era that they are supposed to be in. Not that they HAD to be authentic linguistically speaking. The author could have chosen not to and the work been just as comprehensible, but I do find it charming in a "Horrible that I find this nostalgic" kind of way. I don't think homestuck would truly be the same for me without them.
I also think we need to separate the connotation of Taboo from Slur in this one. Many people say "The R-word wasn't a slur yet" when what they really mean is "The R-word wasn't taboo yet". Now weather or not we should judge someone for saying something taboo by our standards that wasn't by their own is complicated. However to us, slurs are almost always synonymous with taboo, but we forget that some words we now comprehend as slurs and taboo were still slurs by a purely factual definition and just not taboo back then. At lest not AS taboo as they are now.
Oh geez here we go
**Quietly puts away whistle**
I know nothing about homestuck but this title bashed my head in against a rock
around 4:18 i actually have a question. do we know what exact audience homestuck was being written for?
@Übermensch that's partly like why he trolled and dissed his audience so much.
is there a reason for all the personal insults against andrew hussie? he’s not a exactly a paragon of virtue but it feels really mean to someone who’s barely a public figure anymore? like, the release of his new game has 500 likes on twitter after over a month and the replies are full of hate and spam. it feels kinda cruel
Yeah I mean he's definitely an insensitive person who's making some really distasteful jokes but like... there's so many people who do much worse who aren't getting flamed nearly as much
3:18 but wait Dumb was also a medical term for deaf-mute, so why isn’t it a slur too?
i feel like if someone has to point out a word like that's original meaning it has been completely removed from its original context and is an insult rather than a slur
I think that the defensiveness comes from the fact that without saying anything - posts calling out problematic content usually, even if unintentionally, begins to fuel the “cancellation” of said thing, leading to fans being told “you shouldn’t like this thing because of X reasons” even if not from the person who called out the content.
Thank you for addressing this, feels like a breath of fresh air
(- artificialTinkerer)
I think the r word for that year depends on where you're around. Where I grew up (midwest) during that time, it was said just as much as "that's gay" (definitely not saying it's right!!!)
Imagine being objectively wrong in the first 50 seconds.
Who the hell canceled SpongeBob???
ik😭
not nickelodeon obviously
i think you're reading too into it. hussie is the kind of guy that says things because it's either funny or it's what his characters would say (just because he has meenah or dave say the r-word doesn't mean that's what HE says: i doubt he also uses fish puns or raps outside of homestuck so just beacuse his characters do something,doesn't mean he does) like how he most of his Q&A is just him talking about how much he loves vriska but only if she's super fat. clearly he thought that his characters using the word would be funny (likely BECAUSE it would offend people. homestuck is a offensive comic and part of being a fan of it is to have a tough enough skin to handle it) and even if it's not,it's fitting for the characters that say it (john is a sheltered 13 year old kid with three friends,a love for bad movies and likely the same idea as most 13 year old's at the time that it was totally ok. dave is a edgelord that likely learned it from bro like he did everything else ,caliborn is caliborn and all of the trolls (save for meenah,who would honestly fit in WAY better on alternia than she ever did on beforus) come from a planet/society that is so harsh and unforgiving that being called ANYTHING is the LEAST of your worries so it makes sense that words like that would be in commonplace. you're forgetting that hussie likes to push buttons and had the mind to create something as complex as homestuck and thus it's not as simple as "well,he wrote it so that must be how he really is" since the only character in homestuck that represents him is himself and himself is a third-wall breaking idiot that get's his ass kicked by vriska. am i defending the word? of course not. if you are offended by it than that's your business. but this is a series about children being murdered,other children being paralyzed,deep-seeded family problems and karkat yelling whatever bad words pop into his head at any given moment: homestuck is offensive,by nature and that's part of what makes it so great (and karkat's "FAG" bit in the memos is priceless for being both offensive and not offensive at the same time). it's just hussie's writing style and clearly it works.
mucho texto
@@nonbinaryfortnite JAJDNAKAMKSMA
The one thing I will say is that he has said that Dave speaks the closest to his actual speech and when he doesn't know what Dave would say he just writes what he would say
everyone over here talking about the actual content of the video and im just gushing at how genuinely amazing of an opener that was
I'm SO glad somebody's finally bringing this up, whenever somebody talks about the slurs I always have to remind them that it was the early 2000's and internet culture and lingo was INCREDIBLY different.
wait wasnt the book 1 commentary written way before the book 4 commentary?
i was so worried that you were serious omg.
Can’t wait 😁😁
we're so excited for this!
Some history on the term "retard." People still use the term "retard" as a synonym to stupid or silly, and it's also a term in music theory as retardo (to slow). The word even dates all the way back to ~1426 where it just meant to slow or decelerate, and it wasn't used for mentally disabled/neurodivergent people until, at earliest, the late 19th century.
Personally, I am mentally disabled, and have been harrased and discriminated against by people who used this word to describe me (though, if they meant the "slow" definition, they were kinda correct). Personally, I really don't mind anyone using this term. I don't feel like it's "as bad" as the n-word (which might be hypocritical of me, but idgaf). Hope this gives people some context!
(Also, Andrew Hussie really do be kinda retarded lmao)
Same, I have mental disabilities myself but I use the word to describe dumb things, like people allowing babies to play with knifes, stupid dumb dumb babies who poop their diapers
@@RandomGuy-id2ej same
Im fairness to hussie, book 1 commentary and half of book 2s were reprints of the original realeased hs books. But still fuck em
* Comfused in Higurashi Unimeko PMMM and Mystery Skulls fan.
I dont see how that connects to the video's themes, especially with the mention of mystery skulls
thisll be a trip. buckle your seatbelts or some shit
The picture of Albert Einstein for Mark Twain...
Yeah!! This is going to be interesting 👌