Gear-Ratio-Accelerated? Yep, It's a Thing: French MAT 1955 Prototype
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- čas přidán 19. 12. 2023
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EDIT: Shoot, I managed to get the gear ratio backwards. Sorry! The recoil action provides the necessary delay, and then the gear ratio provides acceleration to ensure the bolt can open reliably, akin to the accelerator in a Browning M1917 or 1919 machine gun, or a Lahti L35 pistol. Please excuse the error...
In the search for an improvement to the MAS 1949 rifle for the French military, all the French arsenals proposed new designs. MAS supplied an updated version that was ultimately adopted as the MAS 49/56, but the Tulle Arsenal (MAT) had a wacky idea of its own. In 1955, they presented a short-recoil, tilting bolt, gear-ratio-delayed system. It was an open bolt firing rifle chambered for the 7.5x54mm cartridge, using detachable 20-round magazines. Today we have one of the first models to look at, and there was a second iteration in 1956, which lightened the rifle by replacing some steel parts with aluminum. Neither was successful, much the the relief of the French Army...
Many thanks to the IRCGN (Institut de Recherche Criminelle de la Gendarmerie Nationale) for allowing me access to film this unique rifle for you!
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This is the most French case ever of "the French copy nobody, and nobody copies the French".
Very interesting firearm.
When your auto mechanic doubles as your gunsmith...
@@lairdcummings9092 Sounds like they are a _full auto_ mechanic.
"Different" doesnt's mean "useful".
@@JanTuts 😁
The Fallout 4 assault rifle we deserved, but not the one we got.
Facts
Yes and yes this one is also fugly
Nah, this the AK-112 from the Original.
We need this and a replacer mod!
@ez-bakeoven6797 why not both?
The fact that Ian keeps finding examples of guns like this to show us after I don't even know how many years he's been doing Forgotten Weapons just show's how insanely deep the weapons design rabbit hole goes. I don't think I'll ever tire of watching him.
He's been doing forgotten weapons for at least a decade now
I must say that Ian finds some very unusual items for our perusal. Sorry to say that this is a very long winded description of a completely stupid rifle . Yawn.
@philhawley1219 Are you suggesting it is a forgettable weapon
Funky small arms design iceberg when?
@@philhawley1219 lol. Whoosh.
What surprises me is that the same arsenal that created the simple and effective MAT49 also came up with this overly complex rifle.
Being French I must apologize that we made once something that is simple. Our most sincere apologies, we learn from our mistakes, it will not happen again! 😂
Sometimes it is worth exploring some idea only to prove that it was not the best idea :D
Not surprising. Considering the Chauchat, Hotchkiss, etc these Fremch engineering were often unnecessarily overcomplicated
@@khaelamensha3624 You've been spending too much time with the Swiss. 😁
@khaelamensha3624 Cringe malaise
This. This is peak Forgotten Weapons. I’m so glad Ian has managed to weasel his way into the good graces of the French Gendarmerie because this is the kind of content I bookmarked the blog for back in like 2010.
I remember years and years ago he had made an offhand comment about not being able to get into French records/official armories/etc. Now he's not only getting access, he's getting the level of "What wierd prototype do you want to play with today" access that we all love.
We really owe France a debt of gratitude. They try so many odd "what if" ideas, such that no one else has to bother.
Mad respect to their creativity, and their willingness to dive down strange rabbit holes.
Also: "When your auto mechanic doubles as a gunsmith."
weren't pretty much all american automobile/tractor companies involved in gun making one way or another during WW2? @@lairdcummings9092
Well put.
Absolutely correct! The French were creative and incredibly honest to their culture and the world's benefit.
You certainly haven't heard of Soviet prototype monstrosities .
Looks like someone tried to make a BAR from memory.
"Mom, can we stop somewhere and get a BAR?"
'No, we have a BAR at home.'
*the BAR at home:*
To me it looks like the chatellerault but with the mag on the bottom
glad i wasnt the only one who saw the bar design elements
French Ordinance Dept: Develop a functioning rifle.
Also French Ordinance Dept: Make it absolutely different from every other successful rifle on the planet.
-----------------------
Ian: Guns and gears don't mix well.
Lewis Gun: Hold my beer...
Diana/Original model 66 air rifle hold this stein you ain’t seen nothing yet😮
The G11 operating system is basically all gears and cams, it looks like a clock…
dont forget most burst fire mechanism involved a "gear"
Ian is notably not a fan of the G11 or burst mechanisms in general
@@chemistryofquestionablequa6252 I'm amazed it wasn't a Swiss invention... but if it was, there would've been a toggle-lock.
I'm not sure if anyone has said this, but I think you misunderstood the gearing here. That small gear riding on the pinion is going to rotate X number of times. The larger part of the gear is going to rotate the same number of times, but with a larger circumference. This means the relative speed is going to be faster. This faster speed is going to accelerate the bolt back faster than the barrel moves. This isn't a delayed system. This is a way to achieve a short recoil system without just unlocking the bolt and letting it yeet backwards into the buffer.
Thank you, someone else that didn’t misunderstand its gear-delayed nonsense.
Accelerators are generally called some kind of delayed system like lever delayed used in famas or in browning 50 cal. machine gun
This is also why the spring is so strong. Because it s work on a shorter lenght.
Exactly. It’s just a gear reduction that makes the bolt fully cycle with a short travel of the barrel.
Totally right. This isn't a delaying system but a plain and simple bolt accelerator. The mystery is why they chose this fragile geared system when bolt accelerators were widely known and understood at the time, and far simpler and sturdier systems were available, such as the ones in the Browning M1919 or in the M2 heavy machine gun.
Ian is gaining more power showing us these unusual French prototypes...his blood is now onion soup.
I thought his circulatory system pumps pure Boudreaux wine..?
What? No croutons?
One day he will marry a short, dark-haired lady called Yvette, and open a restaurant in Boulogne-sur-Mer called Le Clarion Mechanique. It will only serve soup made with gun oil, and the walls will be covered in surrealistic drawings involving gears and pullies.
@@AshleyPomeroyAs a French, if it ever happens, I 100 percent go try that beautiful idea as logical and obvious as our weapon manufacturing
@@lairdcummings9092unfortunately that is only true for actual French people. Best he can do is Burgundy
Extremely strange machinery? Check. French? Check. Looks like it was made by a couple of chain-smokers in someone's basement? Check. Ian was probably so excited to film this rifle. Great video.
I can tell why the bolt is missing: it got shattered during testing, cause that gear ratio slams it with quite some force while the system is closing.
Seems legit
I'm actually delighted that a gear-delayed system made it as a prototype because I had thought about what if gears are used as a delay mechanism. We may see a gear-delayed blowback yet
Steam punk rifle.😂
gear-delayed blowback system in a larger caliber sub machine gun, like 10mm would actually make sense somehow 🤔
@@user-cy1rm5vb7iNaaah. Gears increase complexity, and introduce fragility.
Wouldn't that be the Lewis gun ?
Unfortunately I don't think its ever going to be an idea that gets any legs. Gears, by their nature of operation, are a significant wear item. The entire inside of the gun will have to be covered in oil or grease (or whatever) at all times to reduce wear on the gear teeth, so will be a nightmare to maintain, and even then, the gears look to be pressure bearing parts, which will significantly accelerate their wear.
Even if you could make the system cheaply, the rate at which you'd have to replace the gears as they wear out makes it not worth it, IMO.
As someone who has carried SLRs and GPMGs, I can assure you that thing is making my back ache just looking at it. That's a chonky boi... Also, as an engineer, I appreciate the design but I also want some of what the designer was smoking that day 😂
the Keltec R&D dept would also like some of that.
Puff puff pass! 😮😅😊
These MAT designs always grind my gears.
Oh, excellent!
Being a car guy first, I’ve always thought about this as a possibility in using very heavy springs for a straight blow back design but utilizing gear ratios to allow for the bolt to be easily operated nonetheless.
Yeah there's a Peugeot steering column somewhere in the guts of it!
Personally, I do find the fact there's gears in there somewhat comforting in the sense that someone with engineering experience had a big think about it. Unlike say, the AN-94 which gives me nightmares
Gears are, in the end, a just spining lever.
Пистолет макарова aka PM has very strong spring and simple blowback construction
Yup, lifelong gearhead who's been into hot rods & motorsports as much as guns - I've always thought gears were woefully underutilized in the world of firearms(I mean, can we at least get more crackpot eccentrics using them?!). Just think of how they enable you to redirect forces in a very smooth system, you could really change the shape of a reciever and create some uniquely packaged designs.
Legitimately useful? Dubious. Cool as hell? Absolutely!
@@RyTrapp0the majority of autocannons and all rotary cannons use them in some form.
Hey Ian small correction; the larger diameter gear is actually the one that turns faster than the smaller diameter gears so the bolt is really being accelerated rearward faster than the upper receiver. If you think about it, it has to work this way or else the receiver would not be able to move rearward without being stopped by the bolt. Love the channel keep up the good work.
Just what I was about to say.
My thoughts exactly - it's like a lever delayed system, except it spins.
@@ericmitchell985 Well, a gear is a wheel, and a wheel is a rotating lever, so...
@@lairdcummings9092 I mean, a lever can't be a lever without rotating about a fulcrum, so all levers have to 'spin' in that sense.
I just meant that it's operating on the same principle of using an accelerator to delay opening, except cooler and unnecessarily more complicated.
More like a lever action rifle.
Very cool.
But it actually looks like the bolt carrier is gear accellerated rather than reduced.
True! I have noticed the same. So it is blow back delay system.
@@Crow2a Well, not really... First, it has a locked breech. And second, for a delayed system, one would anticipate a small movement of the bolt to be translated in a big movement of the rest of the mechanism in order to provide a lot of resistance to opening. Here it's the opposite. Actually, if the breech wasn't locked, it would be difficult to assess whether the pressure in the chamber would drive the recoil (thus providing a delay) or the other way around.
@@PetrHosek Let's call it delayed short recoil because a small movement of the barrel assembly is translated in a big movement of the bolt carrier in order to provide an effective increase of inertia to delay breech opening
@@Crow2a Sorry, but I see no sense in what you're saying.
@@PetrHosek when you say "resistance", do you mean friction?
This was a DECADE after World War 2. Was there no infantryman they could just... ask... about the concept of... an infantry rifle... with gears in it? I'm honestly speechless that it got off the drawing board lmao. Unrelatedly, your closed captioning is flawless, and I appreciate that very much. Thank you!
In the 1700's, the US adopted the French model for military officers. That system was later perverted to include political appointments.
Just trying to imagine a regular soldier try to clean and assemble this thing.
Well in many aspect , that rifle was a prototype and wasn't adopted .
Tje most important is maybe his légacy toward the MAT 49 and previous french machine gun .
That machine gun , despite her complexity and cost wasn't that bad , not the way your thinking .
Its French so you know there's gonna be some weird locking mechanism you've never seen before or since.
One of the most complex French firearms i've ever seen in my whole existence and i'm glad to see your love for French guns monsieur Ian. Fun fact: it somewhat resemble the M1918 BAR.
The BAR's weird French cousin from a side of the family nobody acknowledges
I thought much the same, but with a twist. "You see, young Pierre, when a BAR and a Madsen love each other *very much* ..." 😂
One of the Belgian BARs went on vacation in France and this was the result.
I literally thought it was a French BAR by the thumbnail pic. 🤠
It looks like a BAR somebody made in their workshop from blueprints that had had coffee spilled on them so he had to fill in the smudged parts.
Serbu needs to make a geared gun now, just because he can. Watch it be awesome!
"grenade spigot" invokes an image of turning the valve on a hose and a stream of grenades flying out
I think that this mechanism actually gives the bolt carrier a higher velocity than the barrel assembly, functioning in the same way as a more typical accelerator found in other recoil operated guns. I made a quick velocity analysis so I can be wrong. Some feedback?
Saw another comment agreeing
@@tonedeaftachankagaming457 yeah, he also changed the video title and put a correction in the description
Honeatly i want more gears in firearms. This and the lewis are the only 2 so far
The rate reducer on the BAR also uses a ratchet and gear system that looks like it was pulled off a pendulum clock
He did a video on some weird prototype years ago that had a rack and pinion type arrangement in it. It was a real Rube Goldberg contraption.
Welcome to artillery, we have a lot of gears
I've been following a creator in the 3d printed gun space for awhile, he's been using a similar system of gear delayed blowback to create a semi auto, mag fed 45-70
45-70? 3d printed? im not sure if that's a good idea but hey maybe the guy will prove me wrong
45-70? 3d printed? im not sure if that's a good idea but hey maybe the guy will prove me wrong
That’s exactly what I was thinking of. Haven’t gotten any notifications from his CZcams channel recently, do you remember the channel name?
@@rebel6301last I saw about two years ago he had it cycling for a few rounds but then parts would start to break.
I came down here to make the same comment.
That gun looks fantastic
I never would have guessed that this was supposed to be an infantry rifle.
When I saw it my 1st thought was France wanted a BAR.
I dont think the gear is really for delaying the mechanic. I believe its more for reducing the lenght of the way which the barrel has to move. The function of the gear is to transfer the back movement of the barrel to the bolt carrier, like a lever in many other recoil operated weapon. When the gear ratio is 1 to 1 that means that when the bolt carries has to move 10cm to fully cycle, the barrel has also to move same way. By changing the ratio you can reduce for example the barrel way to 5 cm and the bolt carrier would still move the same 10cm of way. In some way its similar to the madsen lmg, where the barrel moves only few cm but the loading lever moves a long distance to load a round into the chamber.
It's a long recoil system that behaves like a short recoil system. It would be a clever way to obtain the benefits of both were it not so complex.
The gear ratio will have a delaying effect, because it reduces the mechanical advantage of the barrel vs the rest of the operating system.
Nobody claims that this mechanic wouldnt have a influence in delaying the movement of the barrel. I said, that the gear ratio system was not designed to be a delaying mechanism but a mechanism to reduce the required movement of the barrel and with this also the size of the receiver.
Not so long ago, there was a new hunting rifle, where the same exact idea, but exactly the opposite way, was used to reduce charging handle throw of its straight pull action. Instead of delaying, bolt was in fact accelerated. The ideas aren't lost forever.
Do you remember what gun this was?
@@TheDarksideFNothing I didn't remember what was it, i had to find it... Merkel Helix.
Certainly a very unique weapon. One of many things I love about you mate is you are very quick to admit when having made a mistake. A vital characteristic for a gentleman and good teacher. Merry Christmas mate👌👍👊
Who in the world could even imagine a setup like this.
A Frenchman.
That’s an interesting but incredible rifle
This reminds me of the Johnny 7 OMA (One Man Army) plastic, toy gun from the '60s or '70s.
Thank you for your work ❤
Evan Jones over at the Pilotgeek channel has been attempting to develop a gear/flywheel delayed system for a 3D printed rifle! Interesting to see this old metal take on a related concept.
I just love the crazy sht that is out there that Ian digs up for us, tnx Ian :)
It's not gear reduction. Push barrel a little, bolt moves a lot, that's an increase, like a car's overdrive gear. So no, the gear ratio doesn't delay a damn thing. Instead of relying solely on momentum of bolt carrier to keep the bolt going to the rear after unlock, it's mechanically coupled to barrel movement. Effectively long stroke recoil operated. Bet the spring up front is just a return for the charge lever and plays no other significant role.
I've been subscribed to Ian since his awkward autistic days back in 2010. I vaguely recall that he actually has like an Associate's or Bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering. Or maybe he was trying to earn one? Anyways the misunderstanding of gearing by him is something to think about.
I was going to say, you can even see from the tracks! The track on the lower is much shorter than on the upper, all this is doing is timing.
He misunderstood the Benelli B76 too. I made a video about that one. That ledge is just a ramp, not a lock. The angles of links cause a speed increase; slight and brief, but it's there and adds resistance to opening.
a great very cool and interesting video and firearm Mr.GJ.this firearm seems quite hefty.have a good one & Merry Christmas.
absolutely amazing design!
Great video sir, thanks.
God, I wish to see that bolt. Ian, thank you so much.
I love this channel precisely for this kind of weird stuff.
Beautiful! What a kraftwork. I really like this design.
It is customary for Ian's weirder finds to be described in the comments as: firearm Y crossed with firearm X.
This would appear to be a BAR crossed with the steam railway which carries tourists up to the summit of Mount Snowdon.
Ian, I’m super pleased to hear that you have finally nailed the pronunciation of ‘Tulle’!
Definitely one of the more fascinating firearms I've ever seen! What a system, sad it didn’t go anywhere even if it's fairly obvious why it didn’t. I would have never seen this if it wasn't for Ian uncovering obscure stuff in a French government collection! Thank you Ian, that's quite a feat to get access and permission to publish these videos.
I have to say that even though this was a terrible idea, this person had to be pretty brilliant to be able to come with this and make it work at all. There is a lot going on inside that thing, which is probably why they had so much trouble with it. I think it is possible to make something with this design work reliably. It obviously would not be worth it
Along with all of his amazing knowledge, I love Ian's honesty. While looking at a collection piece from this armory and seeing the gears he says "What a nightmare"! You know you can trust a man when he speaks the truth regardless of the situation. I love this channel!
When I look at designs like this, Compared with a design of the same era (Stoner’s AR-10), and similarly with Browning’s 1911 compared with pistol design of even 50 years later, there are just some geniuses out there, who can totally change and radicalise an industry.
Germany: We have some of the most complicated weapons designs
France: Hold my croissant 😂
@@NCrdwlfThis is the real reason of the French German wars, we compete to be the absolute winner of the most complicated weapons 😂
AN94, the matryoshka gun
@ethantaillefer-meyn6535 That's the one with the double shot, right? (Or 2 round burst?) If so, definitely a contender 🤣
Project SPEW dart-gun of the US army 🤔
@@jameljay2183 Yeah, that whole program had some really weird stuff
I think the coolest thing about this rifle is that it almost seems like it was designed to perfectly balance on an ammo can for display.
Truly fascinating
So, the bolt carrier actually moves faster than the barrel assembly. The increased length on the lever arm of the center gear moves a lot faster than the smaller gears, causing the bolt carrier to accelerate. You can see this happening early on in the video through the ejection port. I’m guessing it does this to get more length of travel in a shorter package.
Interesting, would be more useful as a base for stationary guns though, too clunky for an infantry rifle
This very much reminds me of something I saw in one of veritasiums videos. Its a system of three gears just like that between two racks just like that and the result is very counterintuitive where if you push one rack foward it actually accelerates the gear foward faster than the rack. I remember thinking when I saw it that it would make a great delaying mechanism
You are really the best !!
rack and pinion guns are soo cool. this video made me happy.
Another interesting and informative video as always... Such a bizarre design which makes me wonder how someone even dreams up something like this?
"now lets get back to this nightmare" This might be my favorite line from a forgotten weapons.
Thats looks unrealible
The cocking lever and barrel/barrel extension remind me of a Madsen LMG.
This is awesome.
You know, this looks suspiciously like the infantry autoguns in Darktide...
5:05 The alt solution to non captive assembly pins:
Extremely sized pin handle so it's less harder to lose
Just me thought!
Glad I got up early. Just started taking my first sip of coffee. Oh boy, this should be an interesting video!
Damn, that rifle looks like an autogun from warhammer 40k Darktide... definitely my new favourite gun 😅
The rack and pinion was also trailed on the Barnitzke machine gun in germany. However, the Barnitzke was a flywheel delayed gun. How cool would it be if Ian could lay his hand on one!!
Gears are basically continuous lever, so in a way this is a recoil operated lever delayed action
Very cool
This is really really awesome and I have learned so much since I started watching you're channel ...... As a south african could I request a video on the Armsel Striker 12 gauge shotgun please sir
That cocking lever reminds me of the lever on the Madsen machinegun.
The perfect example of design engineers making hell for production engineers and machinists.
Ian, I know you do mostly military arms, but I would like to see you do the Sako Finnwolf. A mostly forgotten weapon, a lever action that uses a rack and pinion system of operation.
I think you got the gear ratio "up side down". The smaller diameter moves across the stationary part which makes the larger diameter "have a greater surface speed". Which makes sense, as otherwise the whole assembly would have to move LONGER than the bolt need to travel to extract and reload. And you can verify this simply by counting the teeth on both racks: 32 vs 15. This means the bolt travels twice as fast (and thus twice the distance) as the barrel assembly does against the lower.
If it break so much, it might be because the teeth of the cog always hit the same teeth on the rack, if one happen to have a flaw the damage will worsen with each use, for regular machinery cogs are made to change the teeth with each cycle to spread the stress (ex: instead of a 1/2 ratio it is a 50/101 ratio)
Thanks
Just when you thought you'd seen every gun operating mechanism Ian finds another for us
Very interesting to see. I had this idea for a long time.
Put this on a standard closed rotating bolt platform to reduce recoil?
As the bolt recoils, the lower toothed part is not fixed, instead it's a "counter-bolt" which is driven forward. Wouldn't this reduce recoil?
One of the strangest firearms I've seen in a while!
I'm too lazy to look up how you say "mad lads" in French. What a fabulous video, and this is one that I know Ian was super enthusiastic about. ("That's his bag, baby!") I have always enjoyed Ian's presentation of French content. Until today, I thought the MGD PM9 clockwork subgun was the Frenchiest of all Frenchy content on this channel. The MGD PM9 is now, I believe, in second place.
I'd say "les mecs fous", because the mec bit would work well with mechanical related things, but French is my 4th language and there might be better translations.
You'd say "les barjos" or les "oufs".
I'm still hoping and waiting for the day when Ian will do a complete episode in Français. That would be even more interesting.
Thank s
This was ahead of it's time.
15 year old me put together a battle rifle of sorts with Legos similar to a BAR with a Maxim style swinging cocking lever and even a rack and pinion for the bolt, just like this gun, it's amusing to see the similarities between the two after so many years, what a fascinating firearm
I believe the 2 position sight was to allow for the same setting for both AT, and HE rifle grenades
Odd? Absolutely. Clever? Heck yeah!
Love it❤
"Gears in guns is a terrible idea."
*Kraut Space Magic has entered the chat*
somewhere in a long forgotten dusty random parts box in a french workshop, there is the bolt head for this rifle.
it would be funny though it it just used an unmodified lebel/berthier rifle bolt head
I can see so many ways this thing could jam and or lose pieces in use...
The gears clearly increase the speed of the carrier. It covers a much larger distance than the barrel in the same amount of time. I feel like some of the language used here was confusing. Like when he compares it to a delayed blowback he correctly mentions that it's not a delayed blowback because its locked, but fails to mention that the spring is acting on the barrel, not the bolt carrier, so were the bolt not locked it would actually open faster with the gears than without.
Well, that's one way to do it!
I think you may have described the gear mechanism working in the wrong direction on accident. As described, the gear reduction is working backwards. You can visibly see it working in the correct manner by looking at the length of the tracks - the track for the large gear is much longer, for the same rotation. The large gear will move it's track faster and further than the small gear.
One of the guns of all time
That is wild. I swear that when Ian racked the charging handle it sounded like an old fashioned mechanical adding machine!
ETA: or actually, come to think of it, my Mattel greenie cap firing tommy-gun. 😆
What do YOU think would be the best action and type of bolt for this type of semi-auto battle rifle?
On the website you wrote an article about the .280 bullpup FAL made for British and NATO trials. Do you think there are any surviving specimens? The Royal Armouries don't have one, but according to Jonathan Ferguson one of the guns was sent to the US.
Love your work, Ian
The charging handle when not in use can be used to torque down the falling tracks off the tanks