You MUST KNOW this about 2-LINERS
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2024
- A paragliding video about 2-liner paragliders and the techniques that you have to use to fly them safely and avoid big collapses. 2-liners have extra long brake lines due to the fact that as you push speedbar, the glider hinges on the B's and the tail gets further from the pilot the more bar you push. This creates a slightly different hand position while you fly, and because the rear risers are such an integral part of flying 2-liners, you now have two different control mediums. Switching between the two mediums can create opportunities for huge collapses. It is important to know this and mitigate the time you spend with your hands off the glider!!!
Thanks to William Pierre for letting us use his video! Follow him on IG and CZcams
@william_pierre_
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Rear riser control is important and VERY underestimated by pilots that tend to escape to brakes at crucial moments like on the video. Its very good practice to do SIV practices on 2 liners - you can do most of the exercises. Stalls, dynamic stalls, rapid spiral exits with overshoothing. I did that on Zeolite GT, Zeno 1 and Enzo 2 - worked well, great training.
Many pilots also don't use 100% range of steering inputs (and rear riser inputs). You can you FULL range. bang the brakes as long as the glider is in front of you and the brake input is very short.
With good training you can avoid collapses - I flew 2 liner almost 300 h last 3 seasons European Alps and flatland booming conditions and I had almost zero collapses.
No ammount of precautions will stop you from getting the ocasional colapse. Especialy now in the spring time.
Got 2 hard whacks last weekend on the Artik R. Both out of nowhere pushing with half speed trough rough air. So just like Ari said ... you gotta control that energy and let the wing fly.
I absolutley love my Artik R. My Ikuma2 was good but rough air handling is where 2 liners simply win. Having so much control and the added rigidity of the wing on speed.
That being said the jump from a 3 liner to a 2 liner is still not completly done in my head.
Still looking at the wing a bit more then I should in rough air... instead of observing my surroundings and focusing on the ideal line.
Good point. If I need to switch from the B's to the brakes in a hot moment, I prefer to continue controlling the wing with the B's for a while, even after releasing the speed bar. Once I feel I have that one second to switch without losing control, I do it.
Another thought about the collapses at full bar. I believe they are not caused by additional pitch down as you describe, but rather by a sudden increase in lift (caused by the brake input) which in turn changes the airflow around the leading edge, quickly reducing the angle of attack and thus causing the collapse.
Can you describe what you think the difference is in your explaination of the collapse than mine?
@@AriintheAir A slight difference. You say that the brake input on full speed will further tilt the glider forward and thus reduce the AoA. From my understanding, it won't tilt the glider. Pulling the brakes will suddenly increase the glider's lift force causing the wing to change its glide angle momentarily to a much lower one, so it will hit the airflow at a much lower AoA (because the wing will "float" or "balloon" a bit). The cause for the collapse is the same as in your explanation (low AoA), but the mechanics is a bit different in my understanding.
@@dymanoid Very interesting! My understanding of the mechanics is pretty elementary, so now I'm even more curious!!!
Thanks for the video.
I have seen this footage on instagram and now I see the details of why.
Thanks for the info!
Any time!
gracias amigo !
No judgment, just observation... but I'd also add that coming off bar quickly, and then being aggressive on a break input takes the inside tip from fast to slow in a way that bends the glider. A 2-liner seeking spanwise tension means the outside tip accelerates to catch up and if not caught, gets out in front and presents a lower AOA on that side/tip. Equals potential for frontal on that side. I agree with your answer... catch that fucker, but I feel like everything goes better in turbulent, convective air if I'm smooth with my inputs and I try to only get sharp if I need to stab something out or catch something quick. Seems like staying on the outside riser and catching it in this case is a good call, but in the sake of preventing as opposed to fixing, if he came off bar smoothly and entered the left without such an abrupt stab on the brake, the outside tip wouldn't have shot when the glider sprung back into tension, and wouldn't have perhaps required an aggressive catch? Just my opinion... I've done worse;-). Ha ha ha. Nice one, dude.
Everybody who is trying to explain how 2-liner paragliders differ from conventional gliders say the same thing... also done in this video: That the angle of attack of the entire wing is tilted up and down like on an aircraft, rather than being "curled" at the back by the brakes. Of course; that is true.
But the 2-liner paraglider is not tilted as cleanly as you all seem to think: Because those two risers will cascade to multiple rows of gallery-lines where they attatch to the canopy, so there will be two "flat" horisontal parts of the wing that is going up or down when working on the risers; A front part, and a back part, with a "stair-step" in the middle of the wing running from tip to tip. Not the clean wing-tilt you all are imagining.
Think about it; 2-liner angle of attack control is still far from optimal...
In the video of the collapse, what I think is the opener for the massive collapse, is the agressive left turn he takes, without realizing the right side of the glider that needs pressure as well. If you add up the inestability of the thermal, then the picture is clear, inminent collapse. The best way to enter a thermal, and core it, is having the glider stable or at least fealing that it is entering a stable position with pressure along the wing span.
When you accelerate a two liner, the trailing edge gets flatter, it goes up, the sectional curve of the trailing edge of the glider gets flatter and a little bit upwards, that is why the brake lines get more tension, it is no that the Bs go up, the whole glider pivots on the Bs. attatchment points.
Pinnacle of Sport.
I love it! But pinnacle...?
Jocky Sanderson once said on a XC course I took; "never forget we are the mopeds in the air... we're racing mopeds!"
Useful stuff thanks. There is very little information out there.
Glad it was helpful!
On the Artik R there is no need for wraps on breaks (IMO). is not that long as photons. For me took some time to adapt to the B risers steering and how 2 liners are flown. That I keep toggles on my wrist and never let go Risers unless I’m thermalling.. great vid and info!
Agree that the artik R has short brakes but I still fly with halfwrap unless I'm on the speed bar. You need to feel those lines a bit more. On my first few tries on full speed I forgot the wraps and it slowly started pulling me into a spiral. Only then did I realise how short the brakes actually are. Put around 50 hours on it since I got it last summer and I've got a good feeling for it and I still have to check myself on longer flights sometimes about not holding my hands high enough.
Agree. Photon has long breaks. Tried it once, but never more, I dont like it at all. It was pain flying it without wrap. Then I bought Artik R without trying it and it was instant love. No wrap needed at all
Hi Ari, thanks for this topic. Your tips are very helpful, also for three-liners. Riser-control-flying on bar is now integral for three-liners too, since they have improved systems, like my Mentor 7. The problem with overlength brake-lines might be the same as with a two-liner. I just compaired the line-setup of my Mentor 7 with the Enzo 3. Result: Pushing bar Mentor hinges on C but needs about same overlenght of brakelines because distance C to brankes is about the same as B to brankes on Enzo.
I'd like to add that any tip to avoid big collapses should not make me feel safer! They happen to occure less, if I know the tricks, but still occure. I flew Comp, D, C and B wings in 30 years cx and I learned that the airs throw things on me I will never fully understand and be able to avoid the consequence of a big collapse. What I can control is the choice of my glider-category and what it offers me to handle big collapses.
🔥
Thanks for posting, this is very informative.
I am a seasoned skydiver that just moved to the French alps and hope to learn paragliding this summer.
This might be a basic question but I'm still wondering why the reserve systems for paragliding seem like there is a lot of room for improvement. Why is there no need for a cut away system for your primary wing and why does the reserve deployment seem completely manual?
I haven't taken any training obviously but I do have 2000+ skydives including two reserve rides.
Hope to be flying Ancey soon enough with these curiosities better understood.
Great Video Ari, keep them coming.
Surely this is only specific to the High AR two liners, for instance, I've just changed from the Flow Fusion ( 6.35 AR ) to the new Gin Bonanza 3 ( 6.3 AR )
The bonanza as a two liner has less AR than the Fusion three liner, surely my brake travel is roughly the same as the span is similar, however, for the upper AR wings, Zeno - Zeolite - Peak 6 the brake travel will be longer because the span is bigger, or am I wrong 🫣
With all gliders it is recommended to avoid collapses. I would also highlight not every C-2 Liner is in the same category. E.g the Ozone Photon is a High C, Gin Camino 2 or Zoom XC2 is a Mid C.
With good practice you can avoid most colapses. I'm flying c2liners with now around 100h of airtime. Managed to get one single collapse so far. And I'm flying in rough places like valais, Switzerland in general, bassano on days wit 8-9 m/s thermals, competition flying etc.
It's important to do your homework and it's just another level of flying. Like chrigel the eagle said: with 2-liner you have a muscle more compared to 3-liners, but you have to train it first otherwise it's useless.
My SCALA 2 don't need that extra length, so manageable with a little brake and accelerated you are free to keep some cm of line in your hands. Very easy to control.
@@xistsixtI’ve had 5 frontals in 45 hours and I’m only on a high b
@@AMJB100000000how are you loaded on the wing and which size is it? I've found preventing collapses on twoliners (mainly Klimber 2p) a lot easier than on high-B's and C's (for me always the smallest size not really loaded at the top)
@@mraffifpv1685 I’m 5kgs under the top.
It’s a ozone rush 5 Large..
It’s very annoying when it happens as the wing only has 100hrs on it, but I’ll have to get it checked I guess.. but I feel like it’s just the way it is.
Ari great video and lots to think about. I generally fly my Zeno with no wraps, I hold the toggles from the top only and so far I have had no dramas with wing control. I would say I am self taught to a degree so would you recommend I switch to half wraps? I fly in the UK so conditions are not as wild as the Alps and so on.
I recommend everyone to fly with a half wrap because of the authority it provides on the brake line, and the security of it not being ripped out of your hand.
One detail not to undestimate is the length of the pilot's arm. Taller pilots tend to have farther reach thus not needing wraps most of the times.
But that extra range is way below your butt, not really a Range useful on modern gliders. Even as someone rather short all of my wings stall latest at my butt with half a wrap, which really is the only good option to hold the brake on a twoliners as it can be quickly released to full length when flying accelerated.
Now we're measuring Ape Index for paragliding?!?! I'm all for it!
As a new 2 liner owner Ripman recommended this vid to me. Always an advocate of tactile connection with the wing, If I'm on the rear risers my brake toggles are still in my hands. There is still that "time gap", but are some folks stowing brakes before switching to riser control? That seems ill advised 😮
To hold the rear riser, you should have the bottom of the brake toggle in your hand, between your hand and the rear riser T-bar. That way, when you let go of the rear, the brake is already in your hand ready for a wrap.
@@AriintheAir yep...
I feel like this is also true on my Rush 6. It is rock solid on riser controls but there is a dead zone where you are just taking the reflex out of the wing and it collapses all the time. I’ve learned that being more affirmative with the breaks fixes it also, so I try and avoid this middle zone. Does that make sense for a three liner like the rush?
It totally does man, pull till you get the desired effect!
Quite an interesting vid, thanks! But, hmm, did You ever fly any of Niviuk two-liners? Personally I had almost all of them, and since the Icepeak 6 epoch up to now, there was -- and there is! -- ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO WRAP BRAKE LINES if You fly Niviuk. Wrapping is an Ozone thing, and, yes, it may make things much more delicate and risky in certain conditions, as shown in this nice video.
Yeah, I flew an Icepeak X-One for a while and used the brakes just the same, but that was my habit. It was a pretty damn nice glider!!! Very fast and incredibly rigid on the bar
How would you take the brake handles without the half wrap? "Toilet" / tourist mode? Sorry, this is just the worst. The "French" one, putting your hands through the handles? That takes even more time when changing from the B's. If you fly at full speed with your hands through the brake handles - congrats, you're reducing your speed because the trailing edge of your glider is affected, ask your friend to take some photos of your trailing edge and you'll see. Finally, I completely disagree with the "wrapping is an Ozone thing" sentence. I've flown a lot of wings, including the Niviuk 2-liners (Artik R, Klimer 2P, Peak 6), and it's exactly the right way to go. Ari is absolutely right to recommend this for all 2-liners.
brakes also break any reflex the wing might have > collapse
Hmmmmm, I'm not sure how reflex affects racing 2-liners. I'll look into this
I tried to scratch my nose while on full bar (long glide)... that tiny bit of not-paying-attention brake input gave me a wicked 70% collapse on my Enzo 3. Full attention was suddenly back!
Hahahahaha!!! Hell yes! Shout out to all the homies who have taken huge whacks while peeing, eating, texting or scratching their noses!!!
Brakes changes profile and makes it more prone to collapses, risers not.
Ehhhhhh disagree. Say more.
To work properly 2 liners are kind of "semireflex" gliders, applying brakes means destroying pitch positive advantages built into this profiles. It's crucial to slow down first
As an EN-A pilot I'm watching these videos and thinking hmm why would i want such a wing, is there even an upside? 🤔
Higher speed, better glide ratio
Much better connection to the wing when flying on bar.
Soon you too will get addicted to performance.
that's like saying I have a 1979 Buick Skylark, why would I want a Ferrari?
Try going XC together with a pilot on a high-B and you will understand
Show me a collapse like that on a parakite.
Doesn't exist, because they just never collapse like that. They actually simply barely ever collapse, and if they do, it's not more brutal than a paraglider collapse.
That's why it's revolutionary and just so much safer to fly in general.
Your arms won't make it for 12 hours, that's the only problem we are left with.
Other than that, parakites are just superior to paragliders in every possible way you can imagine.
Less G in hard spirals. Much more sink on demand.
No spontaneous lift up in steep terrain on windy days.
Much more speed on demand, so you'll simply NEVER be blown beyond a ridge while soaring mountains.
Much more collapse resistant in general.
You can flare off dynamics after collapses, not leading to glider shootings, where you'd fall into the canopy in worst-case scenarios.
Due to depower, you'll never get draged on the ground in strong vally winds after landing.
You can't ever break while accelerated (leading to the famous dangerous collapses of motor-reflex wings), by the design of the raisor system.
I fly my moustache parakite in thermal spring days already, I even thermaled it and it works like a charm. The only thing is that your arms get tired. But I take tired arms over spontaneous full frontal collapses on landings any day.
They're definitely not usable for xc-flying or competition... and yes I flew moustaches in different sizes and in thermals. Great fun to fly, no question. But calling them superior is a bit leaning out far out of the window... IMHO.
And 2-liners glide still much better flown at the same speed. Example: if I fly my 2-liner fullbar 55/58ish km/h I still have gr 1/7-1/8... the moustache just dives away with that speed
Is this a longwinded request for a parakite video?!?!
Enzo3 at full bar gets 5.5:1 GR my brother
@@AriintheAir yeah sure and 10km/h(20%) faster than my en-c 2 liner
@@AriintheAir Yes please! Make a mini-XC challenge, Moustache 26, vs Enzo ;)