It's Time For Treatment Free Beekeeping
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- čas přidán 29. 01. 2023
- Beekeepers in the US have been fighting the Varroa Destructor mite with treatments for over 30 years, with no appreciable advancement. Meanwhile, we've learned that bees can quickly develop mite resistance and/or tolerance through natural selection. I discuss this and some suggestions for those wishing to keep bees treatment-free in this video.
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Bee-mindful's treatment-free resource map can be accessed at www.bee-mindful.com/treatment.... I also encourage you to check out their channel: @beemindful1027.
Studies regarding the adaptation and survival rates of feral honeybees:
Mikheyev, A., Tin, M., Arora, J. et al. Museum samples reveal rapid evolution by wild honey bees exposed to a novel parasite. Nat Commun 6, 7991 (2015). doi.org/10.1038/ncomms8991
Seeley, T.D. Life-history traits of wild honey bee colonies living in forests around Ithaca, NY, USA. Apidologie 48, 743-754 (2017). doi.org/10.1007/s13592-017-05...
I grew up on a farm on the edge of the Nebraska sandhills. A cattle ranch that bears our family name, founded in the late 1800s by my ancestors, is still owned and worked by my cousin. Life events have put me in the suburbs of a major metropolitan area in middle America, where my wife and I have raised our two kids. It's in this environment that I work to make as sustainable a life as I can, converting much of our backyard to grow food, including a garden, fruit trees and bee hives.
I attempt to use natural methods, as much as is possible, in my gardening and beekeeping. I garden organically and continue to learn to work with the soil and the plants, without the use of chemical supplements, herbicides or pesticides, to improve our harvest. Our honey bees are sourced from local colonies through swarms, trap-outs and cut-outs, and are kept, using treatment-free, natural methods, in Layens horizontal hives.
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I recommend virgin queens from Cory Stevens at Stevens Bee Co (@stevensbeeco767) for those planning to requeen with VSH queens. I don't know Cory Stevens personally, nor am I affiliated with him, and he hasn't asked for this promotion. But I've seen him talk about his work to produce good quality, productive and mite-resistant queens and he would be my first choice if I were needing a queen. His website is www.stevensbeeco.com/.
I came by here because I just saw a video of an interview with Paul Stamets about Amadou extract (from certain mushrooms, I think, since Paul Stamets is the mushroom guru extraordinaire) and and bees. He said it doubles the lifespan of the bees and reduces the deformed wing virus by 1000 fold.
Have you heard of it? I'd love to know more if you have.
@@terrijuanette486 My opinion: I believe that any hive treatment, whether chemically or organically derived, regardless of the benefit, is a short-term solution and generally unsustainable. If the bees wouldn't survive without the treatment then it only serves to protect and maintain populations of generally weaker and more susceptible bees. A long-term goal of raising and propagating honeybee colonies which are more resilient, resistant to pests and tolerant of disease requires allowing weaker colonies to collapse rather than propping them up with external interventions.
@@SuburbanSodbuster I completely agree. Selective breeding for resistant stocks is the only long term sustainable solution. It’s achievable, though not easy. Thank you for the mention. I greatly appreciate it!
It is nice to see respect for other beekeepers even if they like to treat. You don't seem to bad mouth other keeps just for the clicks that's a good start in my book. Maybe one approach is the answer, it would be so wonderful if beekeepers worked together and put away their Egos. I really enjoy your videos, but I LOVE BLASTING mites☠even more.😁Have a wonderful Day.
I ran treatment-free for 5 years.
My survival rate averaged 13% (meaning loss rate averaged 87%).
One year I lost 100% - this was over 20 colonies (most of them in modified Layens too).
Are you treatment free?
If so - what is your survival rate over the last 5 years?
Hope for a response.
Thanks.
What was the source of your bees? My first year I lost 1 of 5 hives. This last year I only lost 1 colony to disease, and that was a nuc given to me by a conventional (treating) beekeeper. I ended the year with 8 colonies after selling 2. The majority of my colonies are splits (F1 or F2) from my first feral trap-out, but some are from swarms or cut-outs. I've been treatment free from the start. This year I hope to end the year with at least 12 colonies if all goes well. I'm fortunate that I have more feral colonies than other beekeepers close to me, even in a suburban area.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Sources:
1) captured swarms (I never buy them)
2) VSH queen from a TF provider - the lone survivor that year out of 20+ colonies (but barely)
Back to location, location, location - you must explain this to your viewership.
Otherwise, there will be disappointments.
Favorable location is a must for TF.
To be sure - I don't doubt you as I see you are based in MO (many TF examples come from MO).
However, be *_careful_* giving the same carpet advice regardless of the viewers' location - some locations are very poor for TF projects (mine included). I would not advise treatment-free in my vicinity - regardless of those 1-2-3 steps you discussed. They just don't matter.
@@SuburbanSodbuster So how many years in total -TF?
This will be my third year with bees. I spent a year, beforehand, studying and was fortunate to discover Dr. Leo Sharashkin and natural beekeeping before I got started - so I've never used treatments. I've had the privilege of learning from Dr. Leo and from Les Crowder, and someday I hope to be as wise as Les.
Based on the information you've given, I can't help but think there has to be some additional contributing factors to your losses, such as widespread pesticide exposure. I've dealt with some near losses due to what I think is pesticide from lawn treatments. And I fear the mosquito trucks coming around in summer. You're correct that location is important - hives next to conventional farms which spray for pesticides are in danger. Hives local to large commercial apiaries are going to be difficult to keep naturally due to cross-breeding with conventional, treated bees. There are many and varied factors, and all beekeeping is truly local. But I can't reasonably cover all of those possibilities. However, I've been told that treatment-free/natural beekeeping works for Dr. Leo because he's isolated in the Southern Missouri forest - but it would never work in a more populous location. Yet here I am and (knock wood) it's going well so far, and I know of TF beekeepers in many parts of the country who've had much longer success than my own.
Lovely verse at the end!
I am also a treatment free beekeeper.
Going into my third season.
Bought two nucs season one.
One survived winter and I spit that hive.
Then split the hives again so 4 colonies going into this past winter.
Coming out of winter 3/4 survived.
The one was under resourced that did not make it, and I take the blame for that.
The three hives seem very strong.
NW Iowa.
It sounds like things are going well for you. You have the right idea - propagate from the survivors and continue raising increasingly stronger stock. Wishing you the best for the future!
I didn’t treat my initial hive and it made it very strong through the winter. I currently have two hives going strong. Neither has been treated. I am planting and putting mint, oregano and thyme around my hives to repel mites. I will likely use a powered sugar dusting in both hives this fall.
Have to point out that Randy Oliver has been rotating through the organic acids and has yet to find mite resistance. Rotating through formic, oxalic acid and thymol.
By the way he has one of the most thorough resistance breeding program I've seen in 10 years. But his methodology is well beyond your average backyard beekeeper.
Nice channel.
12-21-23 I think you are spot on, I raise treatment free ,
Soo, mi
I am organic and breed VSH queens , my apiary grows! Everyone will have losses, that's the game , but My colonies are happy, healthy and sticky!
Last year I had a hard time keeping up with the growth in my apiary. I quit taking swarm calls because I ran out of boxes and my own hives were blowing up and casting swarms - even after being split. I may lose a few colonies over winter but I look forward to building up again with my strongest, most resilient colonies as seed.
@SuburbanSodbuster we don't do swarmcalls anymore either. Too much work to bring in very possibly sick bees. But I love swarms I know are feral or from mine 🙃
I normally don't shy away from a call, if I have the resources. I figure the price is right, regardless, as long as they're bees and not yellow jackets (which is about 1/2 of my calls). Last year I picked up a swarm that packed a 10-frame Langstroth box and completely built out 9/10 frames in one day. It was unreal and the floor of the hive was littered with wax flakes after that frenzy. I've been happy with that colony; it's one I'm hoping to propagate this spring.
@@SuburbanSodbuster I hope you have a great season!
Bad to the bone video brother !!
Lets go !!!
Check out coconut oil study, they have a fungi study , im trying thyme and diatomaceous earth experiments..
Feeding : banana study and kelp study or experiments from universities and masters
The pol 2 line and experiments is a great example of your video.
I need weavers buckfast and the pol line to complete my all star line up of queens and locally adapted .
I can only hope i dont find away to screw it up , pray for them...
5th year beekeeping treatment free.
The ZEST hive has proven itself to be functionally free of Varroa.
The probable cause is that the ZEST is a naturally humid and consistently warm environment.
Varroa do not thrive in a humid environment. The ZEST hive is up to 20% more humid.
Varroa also does not like a shortened bee pupation period caused by the 39 times better insulation than a conventional thin walled wood hive, which gives the varroa less time to mature in the cells. The bee pupation time is up to 3 days shorter in a ZEST due to its high insulation
Nice presentation, sounds beautiful in theory, in practice? Not so much.
In theory I should "treat my bees or they'll die". In practice 8 of 8 colonies survived over winter and, with no treatment and no feeding are robust and growing faster than I can keep up with boxes and frames. My goal was to end the year with 12 colonies; right now after selling 6 nucs and losing two swarms that I know of (from hives already split) I'm sitting at 16 and having to find additional locations for hives. I'll accept these outcomes of my practices.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Some of the best queen breeders in the world have not managed to produce a treatment free, mite resistant bee, those who isolate traits, understand their limitations and are continuously selecting for queens that demonstrate good mite resistance while maintaining strong populous colonies. Treatment free beekeepers, in my opinion have done absolutely nothing to improve honeybee health and instead are nothing more than notorious parasite and disease spreaders, which undoubtedly negatively impact not only neighbouring beekeepers, but feral colonies in the area as well. Manage parasites and pathogens my friend, or take up another hobby.
Unless you want to be bound by chemicals That does affect your family and friends and community You're going to have to take the results great video No matter how many bees we lose in the process of helping them get away from what we've done it's nothing compared to the bees we've already killed by our own hands with our chemicals
I think that, as in many other areas, beekeepers get trapped in short-term thinking. For many beekeepers the loss of a single colony is a tragedy to be immediately corrected by ordering more, usually treated, bees - rather than an opportunity to rebuild from those colonies which survived. That type of reactionary thinking continues a cycle of loss. Feral populations have shown us that initial, short term losses may be severe, but a long term strategy to rebuild from the strength of survivors yields dividends in strength. I think it was Kirk Webster whom I've heard talking about taking extreme losses in his apiaries, but rebuilt from the few survivors for a stronger, more sustainable apiary overall. As you mention, you have to "take the results" but until people recognize that loss = opportunity it's hard to convince them that the results are worth accepting.
Great episode, explaining what "Treatment Free" beekeeping is, and how to get on that train, and stop the insanity of perpetually treating your colonies. At the end of the day, treatment strengthen the mites and weakens the bee.
Genetics Genetics Genetics ----Its not resistance you want....it is TOLERANCE> HUGE DIFFERENCE.....Bees that tolerate varroa will survive.
The two work hand-in-hand. I singularly used the term "resistance" in this video to keep the presentation simple. But no bees are going to have 100% resistance (i.e. mite removal) - they must be able to tolerate a certain amount of mites (and the pathogens they carry) in order to survive. At the same time, tolerance has its limits and a hive could be overwhelmed if the bees have no resistant qualities.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Actually tolerate is night and day different than resistant. There are genetics out there that are tolerate and some that are resistant. An in-depth study with major queen breeders who breed bees that tolerate mites will clear up the misunderstanding and confusion so many have.
@@SuburbanSodbuster you're right... But there is enough tolerance genetically that you do not have to treat those bees. Many of us have over 10 years of not treating bees.. Why do they live?? because they are bred from survivor genetics that tolerate a % of mites. There is no perfect bee and all colonies have mites but for sure there are better bees that have built up immunities and DO survive
Recommendation on a VSH queen for Colorado?
The treatment-free resources page on Bee Mindful's website doesn't show a provider in Colorado, but does show resources in New Mexico and Nebraska. You can find these at www.bee-mindful.com/treatment-free-resources.
Alternately, I've heard good things about Cory Stevens' VSH queens. He sells virgin queens from Missouri to be open mated with local drones. This gives the combination of his VSH genetics with those from locally adapted drones in the buyer's area. I understand he's sold out for this year, though.
Hi I live in Sydney Australia and as you proberble know we now have varroa. Am a back yard BK and it's very difficult to import Queens, as this is all new to Australia, and we don't have any Queens bred for ressistance. I really don't want to go down the chemical road. What would you suggest I do please? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I'm fortunate in that I got started at a time when feral bees had faced natural selection and had an opportunity to develop resistance. Dr. Seeley suggests it takes about 4 years for an area's population to develop resistance, but early on there are steep losses. I didn't have to go through those early days (as you are now), but I can speculate and give suggestions as to what I might do, knowing what I know now.
It's a shame that importing queens is difficult for you, as that could be the fastest path toward resistance. What honeybee strains are available to you? Here in the US, bringing in Russian bees was a big help toward developing resistant bees, as they originated in close proximity to the Asian Varroa threat and already had some resistant traits. Italian bees are notoriously weak in their ability to stand up to the parasite and disease threats. If you don't have Russian stock available where you're at then an alternative I'd suggest is to trap feral bees from around your area (if that's allowed). Your feral bees might not yet have developed resistance, but they should be acclimated to your area and that local adaptation will help them to be healthier to start and more able to stand up to threats. Whatever bees you raise, I recommend splitting to grow your apiary as much as you can without weakening the colonies too much (or breaking local limits on your number of hives). A greater number of colonies gives a greater buffer against loss, and each year you can make more splits from your strongest colonies.
I will say that it's not likely to be easy and you can expect losses. I think it was Kirk Webster who followed this path with his bees and lost all but about 2% to start. But by propagating from those survivors he was able to build back and now has a large, treatment-free, commercial operation. In fact, it may be beneficial for you to visit his website and see the information he has available. The link is kirkwebster.com/.
In any case, I applaud you for wanting to take a natural path to face the threat. It's not possible to treat our way to resistance; 30 years of treatments have given no improvement in the state of the treated bees here. The only path to true resistance is to take the losses and raise stronger bees from the survivors. I hope the selection option will be feasible for you and I wish you the best of luck.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Thank you so much for your comprehensive reply. Very much appreciated.
This will be my 5th year without treatments. I don't have anything against it or those who choose to. My winter survival rates have gotten better and better since I stopped, so this method works for me.
1. Organic treatments are not in danger of the mites develop resistance. It's the companies and their inability to create a consistent product.
2. Beeweaver bees are very mean bees. Africanized.
3. Bad beekeepers are the reason treatments and mites are a problem.
4. If you are OK with honey production disappearing and millions of Colonies dying then go with your advice. Along with millions of people losing their livelihood and jobs.
Do you use a screen on the front of your hive to prevent robber bees and drift bees.. Similar to Bee Smart Robber screen but DIY?
I don't. If I see active robbing I'll close down the entrance disks on the Layens hives to minimize traffic, or sometimes close them completely with only the ventilation setting, opening them again at dusk. But otherwise I don't proactively control drift except by facing the hives in different directions and painting differently around each entrance.
I put a screen in place over the round entrance disk and leave the disk mostly open.. The screen is stapled on 3/4 wood 6" HIGH AND 10" LONG with 2 4" slots at the top one on the screen side and one on the surface side of the layens hive. This is a great help for keeping the robber bees out as they want to just fly straight in and get back out. . I Love this site. Thank You for all you do and may all your positive efforts be amplified back to you a billion fold!
Good job, I think this discussion needs to move forward with balance and thoughtfulness.
Are there treatment free zones in the US? Should there be? Could that create islands of good genetics?
I don't know of any such places. I do think the more that people move toward treatment-free beekeeping, the more it will generally improve the available genetics overall. This is an area where backyard and small-scale keepers can lead, because it's going to be a bigger challenge for large-scale, commercial operations. But I think the time and expense spent treating large numbers of hives would be a motivating factor.
@@SuburbanSodbuster I agree! Anyway, the issue may resolve itself if mites become treatment resistant, because that could result in bees becoming mite resistant. This would keep everyone happy, because hobbyists would get better genetics, the commercial keepers could continue treating, and the chemical companies could keep selling their treatments.
Thank you for this great video. We have converted our 50 acres back to nature and as Servant Beekeepers doing many of the strategies you describe. We are in year 3 of a 5 year plan. This past winter some 25 out of 29 hives survived. We will split the strongest and hope others swarm and stick around. Very encouraging.
I understand wanting to split the strongest. But wouldn't they make their own splits through swarms when they need it?
@@CrazyIvan865 Yes they do that as well. The program developed in Europe requires us to do the splits for the first few years of the program. We had 5 new swarms stick around this year so far as well. So in essence those swarms replaced those lost in the winter. I really don't know. Will keep watching how the later season swarms happen as we are about to enter that season here as well.
@@CrazyIvan865 Sorry for the delay in getting back. Yes I think they would swarm and they all did anyway even those we split. The DBBB technique means we split the hives that survive each winter until we have a strong localized strain. So far so good. Bee well. Hank
@hankliveatthehive3744 than you for the reply. And yes. That sounds like the way to go about it. It makes sense and I feel beekeeping needs less "save the bees with treatments" (save the weak is more like it) and more darwinian beekeeping if the species is going to survive. It with treatments and such, we're making strong and stronger, more virulent pests and diseases, by making weaker and weaker beed by protecting those that would otherwise die out.
It believe it was Dzierzon, which Langstroth spoke highly of in his 1853 edition if The Hive and The Honey Bee, who lost MOST of his apiary when the devastating American Foul Brood hit Europe and devastated most of the bee populations. Withing a half a dozen years or so, Dzierzon was up to 3× as many colonies as he had had initially. I want to say before Foul Brood epidemic, he has 350-450 colonies, and through making splits of the ones what showed no symptoms, he had 1500 colonies in just a handful of years.
You know... that's how it use to be. And nobody does that anymore. Not it's feed the bees during winter and dearth and coddle the bees, fo this m, do that, treat for mites, treat with antibiotics or this and that, do this, do that, jump through hoops... and it isn't doing the species any favors to jump through hoops to "save" those that are intended to die. It's the opposite of natural selection, and it's evolutionary degenerative. It is de-volving the bees by keeping the weak alive to polute the populations of the strong which should/would survive in spite of the odds. Let the bees do what they do, those that cannot survive will perish, those that will survive regardless will survive, split the survivors, repeat almost constantly
To quote doctor Seeley "when a colony dies out, yes it's sad, and on fortunate. But still, it's necessary"
Thanks for laying out that information! I so want to keep bees treatment free.
There's so much rhetoric saying that it's not possible, e.g. "if you don't treat your bees they'll die" (which is true for most conventionally raised bees) that I hope to provide encouragement for those who don't want to raise bees dependent on chemical treatments.
@Suburban Sodbuster I read Keeping Bees with a Smile which was encouraging. I live in Tennessee and we have to have an inspector look at our hives (I think yearly) which is what makes me the most nervous. I'm going to learn as much as I can in the next year or two before getting a swarm catcher and long box and starting.
I keep an acid burner 12v d.c. and oxalic acid to diffuse a mite bomb. Don't jump without a parachute. I found a colony in car trunk southern mi and it needed help. It's why I bought it.
If you have an opportunity to go to Dr. Leo's seminar in Cabool, MO, I strongly encourage it. It really provides a great foundation for natural beekeeping.
@@eliinthewolverinestate6729 if a colony needs help dealing with mites, then those are the genetics I don't want in or around my apiary. I'd rather lose that one colony than spread those genetics, through drones, to mine or other queens in the area.
Great video I have 4 layens hive all swarm caught bee and they have survived 2 winter and I practices treatment free myself
I've been arguing against treatment for a couple of years, but I understand the commercial beekeeper's point of view.
Imagine if bees were a pest and we released varroa mites to kill them, which was 90% effective except the survivor bees became resistant to the mites and then bred a superbee.
Do you think our survivor bees are spoiling someone's nefarious scheme? 😆
@@SuburbanSodbuster I am offering a different perspective to support your ideology
Sorry but I don't agree with the idea that the bees will just become resistant. Why do we bee keep at all?
Beekeeping is about more than treatments. As for the feral honeybees' adaptation, it's more than just an "idea" - it has been studied and documented. I'll refer you to the study published in 2015:
Mikheyev, A., Tin, M., Arora, J. et al. Museum samples reveal rapid evolution by wild honey bees exposed to a novel parasite. Nat Commun 6, 7991 (2015). doi.org/10.1038/ncomms8991
@@SuburbanSodbuster Beekeeping is animal husbandry. Animal husbandry is tending domesticated creatures. Animals that are no longer wild. We take care of these domesticated animals because they can not survive at their state in the wild. Bees have been domesticated for at least 5,000 years.
So I agree with you, beekeeping is not just about mite treatments, it is about many actions we take for the bee's survival. Part of that is treating for diseases and pests that they don't have naturally evolved protection. I like your videos and hope for your success, but do not agree with your views on testing and treating for varroa. Good luck and I wish you well
Great Great video. I have been on the cusp with jumping on treatment free. This video has convinced me to do so. Thanks again for such an informational video
Lol good luck. I don't believe this would ever work up north. Even a few mites in winter is enough to kill colonies up here.
I'm done with Langstroth, only using Layens from now on and will not treat.
Hello from Locust, NC. I have been Chemical-Free since 2014. I’ve always tell people that mites are a treatment for inferior genetics. You can imagine the looks I’ve gotten. Glad I found your channel…
sadly as the MITE BOMB crowd continues their views on those of us that are mite treatment free new beekeepers that get into beekeeping will believe their version unless we show them that it can be done with management styles and the right genetics.
Here in the UK we have the national bee improvement programme (NatBip) to work towards locally adopted bees. Cross breeding with wild bees that have proven themselves to be resistant to mites are the ones to go for.
I know the US is a big place but startin something like a bee improvement scheme could be good for the little critters, allowing natural selection to take place. Itl be hard in the short term but the long term itl be very beneficial to the bees.
That's great that you have a program like that! I think that too often we humans try to usurp natural processes rather than working with nature, often to detrimental results.
@@SuburbanSodbuster at the end of the day mother nature knows best, she'll let the best survive. We all need to improve our bees (prob ourselves too.....but thats another subject). There's no point modicodling bees and usein chemicals to make them survive when they can just do it themselves. Im not racist but AMM all the way....for the uk anyway.
The idea that bees can evolve to fight varroa in just 4 years is laughable.
Excellent presentation. WOW. Please tell me your beekeeping experience and location. Good as Dr Leo
I take that as high praise. This will be my 3rd year with bees, following a year of study. I was fortunate to have discovered Dr. Leo early on and have been privileged to learn from him and others, like Les Crowder.
@@SuburbanSodbuster 👍 where are you approximately?
Thank you for mentioning the survivor bee's. Humans do 5 things that go against wild honey bee instincts. Perhaps we should learn more from wild bees. It's not just the bee's but how the bees live. Planting plants high in oxalic acid and thymol can help. Let the bees make mite resistant propolis. Not moving frames hive to hive. I use a mister with sugar water thyme oil mix instead of smoker. The sugar water mist means they clean hive and each other. Brood breaks. I let my bees swam and colonize. You can get queen cage for hives to make a brood break. I use insulated hives with thermal mass above and below. Like a tree. Bees do fair better in taller hives rather than fatter. My hives have nail boards for bear and over built stands. Mine are wild and 6.5 hours away in central upper peninsula. I hope I built them a better hives than they could find in nature. I use a floor entrances and work as drains. Condensation starts where moisture meets the cold. Any northern bee keeper should know about insulation and condensation zones. And how to keep that condensation zone out of the hive. Thermal break for floors help. A bee hive in winter is like an ice fishing shanty.
Thanks for your comments. I'd like to know more about your nail board. Due to growth I may have to find some additional locations for hives - and some may be vulnerable to bears. That's a very small but growing concern here in Missouri, so I'm considering simple solutions.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Just like nail boards used for cabins. Also known as unwelcome boards. Just a piece of plywood with old rusty nails ans screws. I couldn't afford solar electric fence. So did what most do to keep bear out of seasonal cabins.
Ah "mite resistant propolis"? There is no such thing. It helps with the viruses but has nothing to do with killing mites.
سلام عليكم طبق نضام ابو سليمان لتربية نحل وسوف تتخلص من جميع المراض
ماذ تقول ياغبي نضام أبو سلمان غير منتج للعسل و هو الوحيد اللذي يفرز الحضنة
I've done over 200 removal/relocation jobs of feral bees. My observations lead me to think that the bees have survived without treatment because they swarm on a regular basis, thus breaking the mite cycle. Also, many feral colonies are bees that moved in after a previous colony died, leading people to believe that the bees have been there a long time. I would not take a chance with going treatment free. Even hygienic bees are in danger because they sometimes eat diseased larvae that they are removing. I use several different mite treatments: coconut oil mixed with essential oils on paper towels, powdered sugar, oxalic acid vapor, and oxalic acid in sugar water on paper towels, but the best defense seems to be just letting your bees swarm.
Thanks for the excellent explanation. I have yet to start up, and am still in the study phase. Your video has confirmed in me to begin with a swarm trap and build from there.
It is my understanding that Dr Seeley said that it is those bees that have combined traits of grooming and hygienic behavior. He also said that a distance of 30 ft between hives helps. I agree with you that beekeepers need to go back and permit bees to do it on their own. All we did is develop weaker and weaker bees. Thank you for your video.
The traits certainly work together; I didn't mean to imply that it was an either/or situation. And through natural selection it's true that the bees with the strongest tendency toward both traits will have the best survivability.
There are a couple things that Dr. Seeley advocates that I just can't practice (even though I agree) due to my suburban location: distance between hives and small hive spaces (allowing swarming). I just don't have space to spread my hives out and don't want my bees swarming into neighbors' eaves. He did an interesting experiment with a group of hives clustered together and they all died out in a short time. But for that experiment he used conventional queens from a non-local breeder. Having the hives close together certainly increases the risk of mite and disease transfer, but having healthy, resistant bees can help to mitigate that.
@@SuburbanSodbuster yes I agrée that one has to do the best adaptation possible to where. One lives. The reason why I brought up the the traits factor is because I sometimes here that if the bees have one of those traits the they are good to go and then when it doesn’t work out the go back to chemical treatment and say and proclaim it o you tube that natural beekeeping doesn’t work. Atural beekeeping isa lot of work to get the bees but after that part it is easyer because you just let the bees do what they know is to be done. By the way where I live which is in forested area on hills with no or few human access. I let my bees swarm in the. Hope that a good number of bee colonies develop and natural selection occurs for future generations.
I attemded the January meeting for my local beekeeper's club. there was one member there that when the discussion of Verroa mites came up he said. "We keep treating and still get hight counts. I wonder why do we keep doing it? Nobody could provide him with an answer.
I think that, for many, treating has just become a rote action - something that is done on a regular schedule without fail and without questioning. The idea that untreated bees will die, without exception, is so ingrained and accepted that people are afraid to change the routine.
This is just like worms with goats. I'd like to be more intentional this year with my bees and focusing energy on Varroa Sensitive Hygiene bees.
For goats. Let them free range in areas with poison hemlock, poison ivy, Wormwood (interesting name), southernwood, mugwort, carrots, Parsnips, Parsley, Yarrow, catnip, or other plants with antiparasitic compounds. The goats won't eat it if it will be too toxic for them and will only eat as much as is needed to deworm themselves. I've found several different sources that say this. And it makes sense. Nature does what nature does, better than we can.
Are you still conducting regular mite count tests to see which queens are more resistant?
No, I don't. Doing the counts would be beneficial if I was tracking the numbers as a scientific exercise, or intended to take any action based on the counts, but neither of those applies. My concern is mainly survivability. In the video I discuss resistance but don't talk enough about tolerance. A very resistant colony might have relatively low counts, while a very tolerant colony might have somewhat "high" counts, but both could be healthy. So I'm really not as concerned about the counts as breeding from survivors.
@@SuburbanSodbuster I was thinking about monitoring for Varroa to log mite counts through the year and re-queening high count queens with larva from low count queens. Maybe even try to control mating if I had enough resistant hives. Definitely want to want a chemical free way forward.
Honestly Keith if you're not doing mite washes, there is no reference point for good selective breeding.
@@MinnesotaBeekeeper thanks. I guess I’m like every other new beekeeper who wants to avoid adding chemicals to my hives. Wax moths taught me a lesson this year too.
Well, I guess you could do a video on a controversial subject. 😂 I changed stocks several years ago, as I was experiencing heavy losses every 2nd year. Italians made it fine until the 2nd winter, so it takes a while to assess whether you have decent genetics, regardless of your starting point. I knew I couldn't keep up with X mite treatments, X days apart, X times a year. So I needed bees that could hold their own with maybe 1-2 OA treatments annually. Now I sell queens, nucs, and I'm breeding from experimental TF bees of the same stock. Also have feral genetics at another location from which to graft. - We are blessed to live in an isolated area. What we do would not work long-term in an area with other apiaries, or migratory bees, as the traits would breed out. - But I have several friends (one small commercial guy) who manage without acaricides, using a variety of other methods. My bees (in TN mountains) went broodless in Oct, and only the larger ones will be starting now. So if you need almond pollination, or your main honey flow is in March, then this is not your bee. But they explode in April, and quickly buildup, outpacing pests. - I like the style of your videos. Great post! 👍🙂
As I prepared to record the video I told my wife I was trepidatious about it because of the subject, but it's something I feel strongly about (as Les Crowder has said: "It's time to de-toxify beekeeping"). I meant to add a disclaimer, but forgot to record it, to say that this is targeted mainly at small-scale backyard/hobbyist beekeepers. Large scale migratory beekeepers operate in what I would consider to be a commercially necessary persistently unnatural state which is not at all within my experience, so I wouldn't begin to advise how they could switch - even though it seems that there would be cost savings to do so. I do think that the more people start applying this in the small scale, and the more keepers do as you do to produce bees with good genetics, the easier it will become for everyone to adopt treatment-free practices.
@@SuburbanSodbuster - And there are commercial beekeepers that do TFB. B Weaver comes to mind, and others. Migratoey beekeepers is another matter all together, as you have pointed out.
Thank you for this video.
Just found your channel and subscribed. Nice to meet you. I am not using acaricides in SE Michigan and the SBGMI aims to educate all beekeepers interested in better bees and beekeeping - treating or non-treating alike - let's jump on board for the big win!
I am already headed down this path sir.
With only one colony so far that I caught wild last year… Looking to begin expansion and my first harvest this year.!
Such a good video with great information, thanks Monty!
I sure love what your saying. I just subscribed
Thank you!
Me too.
Great video that quickly summarizes what to know and do if you want a different path in beekeeping.
I drove 3000 miles round trip, 33 hours one way to pick up 2 packages of VSH/disease resistant bees last Spring. That was fun :) and so far, so good. I will go treatment free by also including other methods for mitigating mite load. My goal is to have (maintain) 50/50 genetics with local bees, so yearly queen purchases will be required for a while. I will not keep bees if I must treat them, and I am prepared to fail a few times before giving it up. Best wishes to everyone that works towards treatment free beekeeping. And don't let the bullies, bully you. Just smile and wave :)
😲 That's a heck of a trip and quite a commitment to being treatment-free! Kudos to you! If you need queens in the future, may I suggest Cory Stevens' unmated queens? I am not affiliated with Cory but have heard good things about him and his bees. And buying unmated queens means they will open mate with your local drones, so you get Cory's VSH traits along with local genetics.
I agree with part of what you say but not all. Yes feral colonies are surviving but some of that may be do to swarming frequency. The bees in a cramped hollow log will naturally get crowded and swarm more often and cause natural brood breaks. You have to test for Varroa with alcohol washes or even better the Harbo assay to see how big your mite load is and with the Harbo assay to see if your bees are truly VSH. If they are not you need to try to get your mites numbers down until you can requeen as you advised with a VSH queen. It takes about six or eight weeks after replacing a queen before the bees with the VSH trait sets emerge. If you don't knock the mite numbers down until that transformation happens, you are producing a mite factory, which will be spread by bees robbing out your sick and weak colony to your other colonies, your neighbors colonies, or even those feral bees in your area. If you decide not to treat at all then you should euthanize that colony and start over new with a split from one of your colonies that has VSH traits.
I do agree with not buying packages or nucs from unknown supplies. They can be loaded with mites and on the verge of crashing and just like the hive you didn't treat, be filling your whole area with mites.
I do agree we all need to get to treatment free but do it with great care.
There is both Vorroa resistance and Varroa tolerance. Both qre beneficial traits. A colony with high mite counts but seemingly unaffected may be resistant to the effects of Vorroa
I feel like my bees would come at me if I sat next to them like that for long. Your bees are so gentle.
I'll volunteer to test it out for you 😅 I'm itching to watch the bees again. I hope our wild population here is stronger than it was last year.
My bees have it good and they know it. I don't bother them too much and they don't bother me. Once in a while they do get uppity, tho. 😆
I stand in front of my boxes often in shorts and a t shirt. My theory is they get used to me as not a threat.
@Suburban Sodbuster I actually have a theory I would appreciate is someone could experiment and test it out.
I see a lot of posts this time of year about "aggressive bees" and the go to resolution that most recommend is regicide. Killing the queen to requeen and hope for less aggressive genetics. However, it seems to usually be the largest most productive colonies, at this time of year when the weather is hot (interesting that it's called a "Hot Hive" when the beed get aggressive) and the Dearth is approaching.
I feel there are many reasons it could be. But my theory revolves around the instinctive knowing of the upcoming Dearth causing anxiety. Along with the hives being in direct sunlight and in conditions that are not natural to the bees.
In nature, they would likely be in a forest that casts shade during spring, summer, and early fall. But the hive would have more sunlight and partial shade in the winter.
It seems like you mostly keep Layens and Lazutin hives. But if you know someone who is more or less treatment free with Langstroth Hives... I wonder what the outcome would be of putting a hive on the west side of a large tree where it's in the shade for most of the day during spring and summer when the tree has foliage, but sun during winter when the tree does not have foliage, putting an insulated/non-vented top cover on it, and putting some (but not much more than about R2, which would be about that of a hollow tree or log) insulation around the hive yea round. Then have another standard hive maybe 8 or 10 feet away in direct sunlight, with a standard lid. And just observe and take notes for a few years, as well as recording total weight of supers and extracted honey near the end of fall.
My defective brain that doesn't follow "Common sense" is telling me that the one in the shade with similar insulative value to that of a hollowed tree trunk would have less instances of being aggressive in early summer, and be more productive in temps of total honey production. The bees will have to burn energy to move air through the hive and keep the brood at it's optimal tempersture. Which is natural to them, but would need less forgers to bring water to cool the hive, as the water is already there in vapor, due to not having a top vent. And the hive wouldn't be getting so hot to begin with. I don't how wlese to explain it. But my theory tells me that having insulation and shade, rather than ventilation and sun, would be more productive in terms of honey and more docile in terms of the bees behavior.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to afford the stuff to make a few hives of my own and test out "crazy crackpot theories". But if someone could, I'd love to see the results.
Do you also raise bees on small cells or conventional size?
I start them on conventional wax foundation starter strips, but beyond that they build natural comb of whatever size suits them.
I think if we had all done exactly this in the 1990’s we would be much better now. Last summer we made queens by inseminating from drones who came from bees found in the forest. When they checked the percentage of chewed dead mites on the bottom of the sticky sheet they were over 75%. Bees in the forests had to survive exactly the way you suggested. You are so right - THANK YOU!
I think you're right, but there would have been a lot of loss in the process. I think we're in a better place, now, as the number colonies with resistance and/or tolerance continues to grow. I regularly hear stories of treatment-free keepers who report their percentage of losses declining each year.
Do you have any evidence that varroa is from apis cerana? There are many types of Asian bees, so why do you only blame apis cerana?
It's not a matter of blame, but a well documented fact that Varroa and Apis Cerana had coexisted long before the mites made the jump to Apis Mellifera. A search will find many sources for this, but here's a quote from one:
"Varroa are ectoparasites that feed on the fat body tissue of immature and adult honey bees. Apis mellifera, the Western honey bee, is not the mite's natural host. In fact, the mite is native to Asia where it parasitizes another cavity-dwelling honey bee, Apis cerana Fabricius (the eastern or Asian honey bee)." - entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm
What do you think about powered sugar to encourage extra grooming? I am not sure where I read that, but it stuck in my brain and I am not remembering the rest of it. Would a light dusting of powdered sugar encourage grooming to death of the varroa destructor mite> ?
If bees already have grooming behavior, then I don't think that the powdered sugar would be necessary. If they don't then the sugar might help, temporarily, but it wouldn't change the natural behavior of the bees long-term.
@@SuburbanSodbuster thank you 😊
You're a class act and you make a great case for treatment-free. Too bad backyards (whom are the majority of keepers) have so little voice compared to very few commercial keepers who keep the majority of bees.
Yes I catch lots of wild bees that seem to kill most mites but not all so I help them with Oxalic Acid different times of year. Winter seems to be best.
Brood breaks can have a profound impact on the varroa mite. Queen replacement with Queens that are locally acclimated seem to be the best. Happy beekeeping!
Well said! For me, it's about not CONTRIBUTING to the descent to unfit genetics, which is exactly what treating does. Colonies will always die, but that's because selection never stops. Commercial treaters are just running interference (with well-meaning victims).
Bees are a lot smarter than we are. I have had bees for 6 years, and have never treated for varo. I just don’t want those chemicals in my comb or honey. Just don’t want to do it.
At least I would say that bees are better at being bees than we are, despite all our efforts to manipulate them. I'm glad to hear that you've had good success.
Like listening to a robot
"Your milage will vary." I was born, raised, and still live in Africa. Makes for fun times. Luckily, where I live now, we have a subspecies (A. M. Capensis) that is a bit more docile than A. M. Scutellata. It's a fascinating subspecies if you want to read up on it. They can survive without a queen 😉
I just got my first bees from a local beekeeper that swore by treatments, and encouraged me to do likewise. He mentioned "Treatment free" and said no bees are like that. However, it's obvious the feral populations are thriving and not collapsing. I'm trying to catch feral swarms, and definitely want to start incorporating their genetics into my hives at some point. Until then, looks like I just have to continue to treat to keep my genetically inferior bees alive.
I agree that you will probably have to treat those bees, but I'd encourage you to do so prudently - test for mites before treating to determine need and don't just treat reflexively on a schedule. If you make splits from that colony allow the splits to requeen naturally and those queens to open mate so they can integrate genetics from local feral survivor colonies through the drones. Because the bees are from a local source you should also be able to reduce or eliminate feeding the colony (at your discretion). Allowing them to go through the ebbs and flows of the local nectar flow will allow for brood breaks during dearth periods which will help to manage mite loads. It's possible (although unlikely with conventional/treated bees) that your bees might have some mite resistant/tolerant traits which haven't been proven, but only monitoring and survivability will reveal that. Try not to get discouraged. I have a couple colonies which are struggling right now and I understand the temptation to prop up the weaker colonies. But by focusing on growing from the stronger, healthier bees the long term outlook is for better, more sustainable colonies overall.
@@SuburbanSodbuster One month later, and I'm still doing fine with 0 treatments so far. I tested mite counts using alcohol wash, and my counts are low (2 per 300). My area has been in a nectar dearth for about a month, and I'm resisting the temptation to feed them since they are doing fine and have plenty of honey in the hive. I say this all to say, so far so good. July should be my peak season for mites, and with such low counts now and a brood break, I'm just not seeing that those boogers are going to be an issue for me this year. This video was really the catalyst for getting me thinking differently about treatments, and once I get a solid pattern through a few seasons, I hope to be a local change agent for thinking differently across the entire community. Thanks again!
Thanks for a great explanation. We've been supporting genetics that are weak against mites and pathogens for so long that commercial pollination and bee-product operations have simply built treatment into their economic model (and pricing). Also, hard to imagine large commercials accepting brood breaks. They see treatment as insurance against the risk of not being able to deliver products and services. When their hives are within reach of our DCAs, the weak genetics dilute stronger genetics of adapted feral hives and treatment-free apiaries. How can we incentivize them to do the things that naturally seem counterintuitive to an adapted business model?
Because I'm not involved in large scale, migratory beekeeping I can't speak with authority about what would motivate them. It's true that brood breaks wouldn't really work in their business model since their contracts typically stipulate a certain quantity of bees per hive. The only thing I can say is that the more success is seen on the small scale, the more it may become economically feasible on the large scale.
I don't have citations, but I have heard that treatments can affect the stamina and fertility of drones. In a nutshell this means that drones from untreated colonies have a better likelihood of spreading their genetics than those from treated colonies. Except for those places where the area is overwhelmed with conventional/treated drones, the odds are greater for treatment free genetics to spread than the other way around.
I got two BeeWeaver queens, They produced the most vile, viscous bees I have ever had-they were so bad and unworkable I had to just burn the hives alive!
When you winterize, are you leaving the entrance closed, vented, or slotted during the winter. I Dr. Leo's on winterizing and he did not address it. Are you going to do one on winterizing the layens hive?
I turn the entrance disks to leave a slot just big enough for a couple bees to get through. On days when its warm enough bees still need to get out for cleansing flights. I believe Dr. Leo sells an entrance disk with a "mouse guard" setting - basically several 3/8" holes - for use over winter.
A couple years ago I made a video about winterizing a Layens hive (but don't think I mentioned the entrances). I was just learning about making videos (and still am) so please forgive the audio quality but maybe this will be helpful: czcams.com/video/ZbbhaowUHSw/video.html
I made another video, more recently, about how bees survive the winter: czcams.com/video/uYm1rrXCfiQ/video.html
I was thinking that one could use a layen swarm trap as a 2 frame nuc with divider board on both sides. This could be expanded to 5 frame within it as they grow. Thank You Very Much for having mentioned the 2 frame Nucs that Dave uses. You are Amazing!
To be honest, I've had more trouble with small hive beetles than varroa mites.
I can definitely relate! I hate those little black buggers!
This will be my 9th year as a bee guardian. No treatment to date!
Beeweaver queens produced the most viscios bees I ever had. Could not rescue the colonies and had to kill them all!
Amen! This 2nd year I am a laissez faire beekeeper. I provide loads of flowers as I do not mow but for a few footpaths, and water, plus I live on a marsh/pond. Horrible: the beekeeping teacher demonstrated drowning 300 of his beers just to see how many Verona mites might be there, even though he said he knew there would be a few mites, and he was on a regular treatment program. I’m not killing bees because I am curious. The other challenge to bees, and all life, is microwave radiation, and the aerosol spraying of aluminum and sulfuric acid to “block out the sun against ‘climate change.’” I am the co founder of 5G Free RI. Here is my musical statement
I started using OA once or twice a year, once in the spring and once in the fall. I do not see a resistance to OA. I just want to give the bees a good start going into the winter and coming out of the winter. I have some very healthy hives this year. I do not want to treat all the time. It is to time consuming.
In comparison I do not treat in fall, nor in spring. 8/8 of my hives survived winter and are booming now. With splits I currently have 17 and that's because I lost 2 swarms. Conventional beekeeping belief is that treating hives helps them to stay strong, but if the colonies have traits to manage Varroa then that's just not necessary and could be counter-productive.
About to start my first few hives in a few weeks and have been looking into mite prevention, but I think I like this better...