PVP Dev Shares Insights on SBMM in Destiny
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- čas přidán 13. 11. 2023
- A PVP developer in the industry reached out to me privately to clear up some information regarding SBMM Skill Based Matchmaking in Destiny 2 and in the gaming industry as a whole. Here's what they're doing and why it matters.
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This is what's called content creator excellence. You had a stance, learned more, and were willing to share it along with how it impacted your initial thoughts
The fact that they have continued to loosen SBMM since it was brought back is akin to them releasing hard numbers. The studio would never sign off on it unless it were undeniably harming player engagement and retention.
exactly. I dont trust bungo at all. they lied multiple times about pvp already. they know they hurt pvp the way they implemented sbmm
@@sawoszaoits the best change they have made in years. You are delusional.
They are not loosing up their SBMM portion of their matchmaking system because SBMM is fundamentally bad. They are loosing it up because the player base has decreased to the point that there are not enough people playing to populate more brackets.
Nothing is worse than having to play cbmm and still get lag because of the small playerbase.
We were at that point after 2 years of all sbmm removal from crucible. To the point that bungie decided to bring it back in an attempt to save a game that had its fate sealed already.
@@freethinker3279 population gets worse and worse despite sbmm? Maybe sbmm didnt work like they wanted it to?
This video was top notch, I am 100% with all of your arguments. Being someone who used to play D2 specifically for PVP, I had to quit like a year ago, got up to 5K hours, I loved this game, but there's nothing so far that has made me think on coming back.
In 2020 this what Joshua Menke (Halo Blizzard CoD now Riot games) had to say :
"I can't speak to Destiny 2's data, of course. But in the data from games I have had access to, I have not seen SBMM result in a material decrease in pop. I have seen lack of or looser SBMM consistently lead to significantly higher quit rates and a drop in pop though."
Ppl can conclude what they want from this but facts are that for any developers engagement is very important and with ppl who played games in their teens 20s now as they are in 40s/50s they still playing games and they have money to do so and companies want that piece of cake too ,that has been business for at least 2 decades already.
Let's see how Xdefinant figure this out for a long run.
Cheers
As someone who is at-best average in PvP, I’ve been a supporter of loose SBMM, based on how I assumed it was being implemented, by broadening the skill range for the starting pool (which turns out was not correct). I understand the frustration of high-skill players not being able to relax in QP instead of sweating in comp. Meta matters a lot more at the high end of the skill bracket, and going off-meta is punished much more harshly than in a group of all casuals. I also see the viewpoint from the low-skill players. Without some form SBMM, the low-skill players would be given the choice of sweating in comp, and having to sweat harder in QP just to not be embarrassed. As long as the skill brackets are configured correctly, bad interactions (low vs high skill players) should be minimal. There was one brief mention by TV of a bell curve. The middle chunk(s) of a bell curve are very-meaty. The middle third, maybe even the middle fifth, easily contains a majority of players. The number of players at the endpoints is so small that you will rarely see them, even with just 5 brackets.
I guess I already knew this what the meant when they said they were widening the bracket.
My issue isn’t SBMM, it’s lobby balancing. They recently addressed how they are planning on changing the balancing in the lobby, so I will wait until next season to pass judgment. But it seems like fireteams of varying sizes are going to throw off the snake draft method. If you have 3 1% players together how do you effectively balance that out?
So what your really saying is, until this source explained this to you, you have just been guessing. No attempt to take a computer class. Just wanting Bungie to pay for your lack of education. Imagine a content creator actually know what they are talking about before making a bunch of videos. What a concept.
Ranking systems make me play more personally, which are a form of SBMM. Overwatch, apex legends… watching my number go up is what keeps me going back to those titles. Having my games get so so SO difficult in destiny without the loot getting any better and with no ranking system to go with it killed any enjoyment for pvp I had.
Agreed. I enjoyed the first overwatch the first 4 seasons of the game. An actual rank mode with rewards kept me playing and trying to improve. I had the option of playing casual matches to try new heros, learn the maps better, sometimes play against someone really good and learn from them. Then when I felt like it I could go against people at my skill rank to use what I learned to reach better rewards. I ended around plat and diamond SR in season 2, and in season 3 I reached GM top 500. Season 4 I was able to reach top 50 for awhile, ended with 3 accounts in top 350 chasing the cool ranked rewards and the status of a REAL ranking system and not a fake one like destiny 2.
Its one thing to put sbmm in quickplay (which I dont agree with but let's move on) but to put sbmm into a ranked mode which makes your rank not mean anything is stupid. Bronze or ascendant, means nothing when theres like 6 skill brackets of bronze through ascendant. I'm glad we at least now get some kind of comp reward, but doesn't reflect someone's true skill since people 5 brackets below can get same emblem. Even though I enjoy relaxing In casual pvp at times, i would rather play ranked if there was a true ranked system that i can visually see my improvement at the game. I hit 10,000 ranked points and feel no accomplishment as I know I'm not the best player, but I can easily hit max ranked points. I believe there should only be a handful of people who can hit "max" ranked points and have a leaderboard showing placements
Great work. Thanks for sharing.
That OG montage at the end! The good ole days 😭
The brackets this season are FAR wider. Aside from lag issues across the board this weekend, overall this season feels far more like the old days. As someone traditionally in the 1.3KD range in 6s (I'm much rougher in trials), I'm matching all the way from .8 to 1.7KD lobbies. And my personal performance this season is about 1.5. That's miles different from the previous couple seasons where every game felt like the same crap and I struggled to go above 1.0 over a session. And every time I did well for a day, the next day I'd jump in and get clobbered because SBMM knocked me up a bracket. That's not happenening now.
It's the first time in almost a year I've been willingly playing control to waste some time.
I know it won't be the case for the top top players, but I'm pretty happy with where this has gone. For the most part it is much more like outlier protection for most players, and I hope after some tuning it remains that way. If it encourages people to stop running meta every game that will only trickle through the ranks and make more lobbies feel natural.
That is useful info. Thanks!
i agree this reduces the rigidity of my stance too, they seem to be moving in the direction of outlier protection, but the matches still feel off and don't flow well, also i appreciate those d1 clips, nostalgia
Great Video!!
Yo that Plan C footage. That takes me back.
The last few times that Bungo loosened the SBMM, I could feel it. Each game I started to notice that the caliber of player, and their loadouts, were much more casual. That means that I could personally change my loadouts, try more fun/off meta things AND play with some of my friends again. Not to mention that the connections were way better too. SBMM belongs in competitive playlists, not pubs imo.
sounds like its just vibes base and your hate booner is just in your head
Nothing you said is actually tangible. People blame SBMM for their lack of ability to perform. It's a built in excuse. Refusing to use off meta load outs is your own fault, and being forced to face similar skill players is a good thing.
And the number one argument against SBMM is essentially that other players need to just improve if PVP is too hard, but then refuse to play similar skill individuals because it's not easy enough. Yall are hypocrites.
Connections existed before, meta loadouts were an issue before. The only thing that changed was too end players don't get hand our wins and pub stomp low level players.
I've had the exact same experience with the recent SBMM changes, its a really good middle ground. The quality of my games have improved, my matches feel more fun and dynamic, I'm playing a lot better, I don't have to sweat loads, and I have way more room to breathe in the meta. My games also don't feel one sided and they still have a slight competitive feeling to them which I enjoy, I'm very much in favour of SBMM especially around this level of SBMM. I don't want to go back to pub stomp levels of CBMM matchmaking, those kind of matches just aren't engaging even when you can drop 40+ kills really easily. It also just feels bad for whoever you're up against. I'm hoping the lobby balancing changes further improve the situation next season too, because that has a very big impact on how matchmaking currently feels. It feels like we're headed in the right direction.
@@seb5542 again all in your head
you hate it the second a youtuber tells you what to think
@@FlashesSoccer011maybe I just have a different opinion but I personally think it shouldn’t be your fault for not using meta. In something like ranked or trials yeah sure go all meta but shouldn’t there be a game mode for casual players to tryout some fun loadouts in pvp as well ? Do you actually like being in a lobby where everyone is running like a bubble Titan with peacekeepers and immortal adept ? Currently the game is in a state in pvp where you kinda have to use the meta to hang or become super skilled in hand cannons when everyone has a sub or auto rifle. That’s not really fun for casual play
Ahhh those D1 throwback clips at the end! 🥲
Hey TV can we get your thoughts on Checkmate?
Is there a way for us to find out which skill bracket we’re in? Curious
Tv for the first time i matched with you the other day and i can safely say i got in thru that widened sbmm it was a good match but as the pop drop I've seen other higher end people more and more it's fun but ik i can't hang
What you've described is the developer telling you about "engagement optimised matchmaking" and the reason they don't just come out and talk about it is because when you really sit down and think about it a matchmaking system that encourages the players that play the least to play more and the ones that are already hooked to play less (but still more than a casual normally would) is NOT consumer friendly.
Personally I grew up on games that didn't have SBMM, like COD for example, so I don't mind if it's there or isn't there, if it was up to me personally I'd like public playlists to be based on connection with some outlier protection and ranked playlists to be rank based matchmaking, but the reality is that I wouldn't even care if every playlist was strict SBMM if it didn't turn the games into a game of who is lagging the most wins. The Destiny servers were dated when D1 launched in 2014. It's been a decade and we're still living in that world.
I am a very good PvP player and I don't have a problem with SBMM as long as I don't match the same people constantly. My only issue is people in my clan will not play modes with SBMM with me because they know matches with me will be well above their skill level. They will play with eachother and do okay because of SBMM. That aside we need some sort of SBMM. I used to receive hate mail constantly before SBMM when people would berate me because I made their match miserable. I would get 43 kills and kill one person 15 times. I get it. It's not fun for me and especially not fun for them. I cant say get good because it took me years to get good and i cant expect others to do it overnight. I shouldn't play people like that in a match unless it's a party mode. I belive SBMM has to stay for the health of the game.
I would like SBMMi f it actually worked, but lobby balancing is the bigger issue. If the lowest on their team has the same amount of kills as your 2nd or 3rd, then what is the point of SBMM
@@jormungandr4690This.
Great Video Vanguard
I wonder if Bungie considered determining the width of a player’s skill bracket with a form of integral calculus over the bell curve? In other words, set the upper and lower limits on opponent skill for each player such that their specific bracket “contains” a certain number of players for them to match with. The upside would be that you have a same-sized player pool to match with no matter your skill level, however the downside would be that if you’re an outlier (really bad or really good) you’re prone to match with players far from your skill level due to the increased width of the brackets at the “flanges” of the bell. 🤔
How would 'widen the skill brackets' mean anything else?
Well said TV, well said!
I appreciate the insight and wish sharing the real data wasn’t seemingly taboo from the industry. Might soften a lot of opinions to see the actual numbers. That being said, if the systems were truly working, this wouldn’t be a discussion. People are polarized because matches aren’t fun. You’re either rolling or getting rolled, and both are frustrating. In bungies case, I think the bigger issue is lobby balancing like you’ve mentioned before. Honestly, if matches were fun, I wouldn’t really care if we didn’t get new maps, and I might not have set the game down months ago.
Hopefully the match balancing changes should fix the roll or get rolled problems.
I wonder if it’s possible to have brackets overlap, while still keeping the most skilled third away from the least skilled third, but the least skilled and most skilled can both dip into the middle bracket, just not at the same time, like a Ven diagram.
This is how I image it actually works, like you said a ven diagram with floating looser pools inbetween each skill section of players
OT: Say, do you still claw on controller? I'm trying it for the first time and i feel it's difficult and my hand starts to hurt a bit
I’ve been noticing the same names in matches too, I always thought it was just low population though xD
So when you mention SBMM is that determined by a individual KD or are there other things that goes into that equation?
Perspective can change everything
3v3 is my fav. I’ve been stuck between gold lll and ll for the past 6+ months. I play almost every day. I’m a stubborn bow player that doesn’t play titan. Never put the raconteur down and suck with my shot gun. I’m a glutton for punishment. 🤷🏻♂️ it’s hard, I suck, but I still have fun. Love it.
I wouldn't mind a bit smoother curve but that might just be me, cause when I wasplaying trials the other day first match my team got clapped by a single guy, next it was a stricken but we won. Idk tbh
I think ur absolutely right
Big TV is back in destiny!!
How quick that happened
I told you all I’d be gone a month and I took 2 🤷♂️
My concern even with the loose SBMM as u described is if the player pop generally explodes let say shoots up to 100k active always. It will revert to a lobby of u and 11 clones of u cause it will find people exactly as good if not like 1 point lower or higher. Which will lead to another giant player frustration especially at the higher end then people will quit again and the cycle will continue to repeat
I've matched against TV somewhere like 20 times this season. Seems pretty strict to me.
I think the definition of “fun” changes as you get higher in the skill bracket. As I watched the background play my interpretation is that you were having fun. But, if I try to view being on the receiving end I would say those people were not having the same level of “fun” you were having. For most “casual” (or lower skilled people) having “fun” involves NOT being dead all of the time or being able to have a 1.0 k/d. For the high skilled players a large part of the “fun” equation is the ability to try different load outs (which requires being able to easily kill your opponents). One of the other drivers for high skilled players is to be able to kick back and relax while playing (which, again, requires being able to easily kill your opponents). One the main replies by high skilled players to lower skilled players is to “get gud”. But that is just a “false flag” as in actuality high skilled players do not want to play other high skilled players. I am glad that your eyes have been opened up “a little”. But until you are able to view pvp from the other side I am afraid you will never understand. And this system will never be inviting to average players.
It funny how high skill players have to bend to lower skill players and the system, just for being good.
Arguments like your will always be moronic whining of actual losers, because on one hand a player is punished by the system for being who they are, but on the other hand a loser is being rewarded by the system, because they are too lazy or incapable of improvement.
@@jormungandr4690 Yes, let’s let the top 5% of players Steam roll over the remaining 95%. Heck, lower skilled players were only put on the earth for your pleasure. Absolutely let’s not have people play others of the same skill. If they cannot keep up, they should not be playing. All hail the high skilled gods of the gaming universe for they shall rule the earth. There will come a time when your reflexes will slow. Your aim will falter. And you will become “one of the moronic” lower skilled players. You will no longer be on your self proclaimed pedestal. Only then will you understand what I have been talking about. I stand by my stance that “fun” for high skilled players should NOT be at the expense of lower skilled players also having fun.
@freethinker3279 You are absolutely right, and just look at where Bungie are now. Let the top vain players get their way and bread and butter average will disappear. If that happens a mere 45% drop in revenue is nothing, bungie will die or have raise payment a lot. monthly fee to play. If things go on like this it will happen. besides most casual players do not have the time to play that much or simply wont.
If top players want us to go you are doing just fine but you kill Destiny as well if you can't make it viable as a franchise without the lower levels putting money into it.
In my opinion they should have kept storyline campaigns not dependent on pvp partitipation and made pvp optional for casuals. That way I don't have to bother about top players and vice versa.
Been here since D1 start but stopped twice, once because of work not leaving time to play and last because I was fed up with how things were. After a year I returned and have had fun untill now. But it is still a toxic community and I seriously think of uninstall it entirely for good.
Any one knows what TFS will go in bungiestore us ? I see it fromm europe and it is $275 for collect and Bungiestore eu is euro 305. Elsewhere here iy is more likearound euro 100 ish. Price was from this night.
I think I saw you in the crucible, dude. That was pretty cool. Not to brag, but I was top frag. Anyway ggs man
Man its crazy, since cod came out. I havent even missed this game. I just watch it cus I only have like 3 cod youtubers I watch.
Ping leveling would be a great way to make sure connections are balanced but the current system doesn’t allow for that. Also cheaters are becoming more apparent again but not in the way you think. Players on console using mouse and keyboard when it’s clearly stated that it’s against the code of conduct are not being punished or removed because Battle Eye and Bungie have no way to detect it. Other than those two outliers I appreciate the feedback from your source to clarify what you’ve been saying for years now.
There is something they likely won't tell you... the brackets may not have been changed by the same ratios. For instance, they may have only removed some of the middle brackets such that mid brakets are 33% for 2 brackets (66% total), while the lower and higher brackets are still around 16.5%. I'm not saying that definitely is the case, but if high level match making is still samey, something like that could be the cause. Without hard data, we really still can't know how they've decided to change things.
Good video
So, in a recent video and recent DCP podcast, TV talked about the old Skirmish/Salvage playlist from D1, and he spoke positively about how it was a smaller playerbase in that node and that he would see the same people over and over and he made some good long-lasting friendships because of that. But in this video, and in numerous older videos, he talks about seeing the same people over and over and how frustrating that is. What's the difference?
Call me crazy but why cant we have SBMM and Connection based playlists? We have 5 or 6 crucible nodes anyways. Why not consolidate a few and then double it for SBMM and connection based options?
True vanguard why you remove new vid?
@TrueVanguard did you see the recent tweets from max hoberman? And his take on modern sbmm and the system he designed for halo 2 & 3
Honestly, I've never had this much fun or success in Crucible ever. Though, I'm a returning from a 6 month break. I'm slightly above average with a 1.5 K/D according to Destiny Tracker and in game my KDA displays a 2.2. I had never found any success in Trials of Osiris before this season, or ever for that matter, but the last two weekends I have been able to go flawless (first time ever in D2). Even outside of Trials even my quickplay games are fun and very rarely end in mercy rules for either team.
Now if only I had ways to match-make for raids because LFG's don't want raiders without clears.
That D1 final game play! Why are you teasing us with such legendary maps.
I noticed that too. I loved that map and have been hoping they'd bring it back. It was where I finished my exotic bounty for thorn in D1. It was with a blue fusion rifle next to the outside control point. And yes, at the time, I was bad enough at PvP to remember that - it was that big of a relief to get the ONE kill that mattered to end the suffering. I actually credit that bounty with making me improve at PvP.
I recall them saying a long time ago it wouldn't be a competitive esports type game and yet that's how it feels in every single mode, like as if the people I'm playing against are going to win their million dollar prize if they win the match and my team just downloaded the game a week ago. 50/50 matches aren't fun either, dragging the time out as far as possible is crazy. You either win or lose it shouldn't take 10 mins of fighting to figure it out
Here's the thing. They could say they reduced the number of skill brackets but that could be on the low end only. We don't know
What I want to see tried is a curved Sbmm. Small bracket at the lowest skill, larger in low skill, but the top bracket is the largest.
Another problem is comp. I got kicked from matchmaking multiple times last night. I was 3 stacking during some of that as well. 15 minute q times are wild. I think it’s just an issue of why people play the mode. There’s no rewards worth the sweating.
I would love getting some info that low skill and so on players are actually:
- Enjoying PvP more than before
- Playing more than before
Because currently I can't even go into Ascendant because I was really busy at the start of the season and then it was: 30 minutes for a single match while solo; and now it won't even find a match even during reset
But if my suffering lead to more people to have fun and play more PvP... That mean that my suffering will be short term as more people will develop the skill to climb up. If not, then it is for nothing
he doesn''t care about low skill players
he only cares about himself
@@Dante45p Well, what TV says makes sense... He is getting the short end of the stick and there is no info if it is working or not to make top/good PvP players have a worse experience overall think that their bad time in general is worth it
As someone with a 3.5kd player that solo queues quickplay matches, and being in the bottom 1 percent of win/loss bracket (I play objective) my games are almost always unplayable. They put the absolute worst players on my team and puts decent to higher skill level players on the other team. Making me run around the map like a chicken with his head cut off and my team not being able to kill anyone on the enemy team. To say that bottom 1 percent dont play with top 1% just donest add up from my pov. I hope they can fix this otherwise ill have to play with a 6 man team in order to have any fun casually playing.
As far as sbmm goes, On nov 20 max hoberman said it best
My problem is, I’m a casual player that maybe puts in a few hours a day. Why do I always have to go against the best players in the game??
My issue has always been lobby balancing. I can live with playing better players, but lopsided teams will always grind my gears.
Well I was a hardcore PVP player since D1 and as soon as they added SBMM I walked away from the game. I check in every month to see if anything has changed. Been gone from D2 for over a year and haven't looked back
*nice
They made changes recently to eliminate some brackets which has helped variety in matches somewhat, but they have already commented that they overcorrected and are going to iterate it back the other way. Without them giving much data and knowing their history my guess is that it is going to go back closer to what it was where every game you need to play 100% meta with degenerate strats inside of casual lobbies.
I've matched with you multiple times... Both with and against you. Always a fun time. GT: schizo, father of Zozo
Im all for sbmm full stop. People seem to forget what the crucible was like 2 years ago under cbmm. Nobody played trials and crucible. The content creators had nobody but sweats to play because thats the only people that where playing. I remember back then people were talking about how sweaty the crucible was.
Lobby balancing is such a vital part of PvP that’s so often ignored in the matchmaking discussion.
For example a match has 4 cracked players on one team. Players on the other team are quick to say these 4 are so much better than them why are they in our lobby. When the balance of the match could be helped A LOT by simply having 2 cracked players on each team.
Super super interesting, great content. But yes it does raise more questions than it answers.
About "SBMM promotes more casual play time": I never doubted that; problem is, raising someone's game time from 20 hours to 40 hours of PvP per year, isn't the win it sounds like - even tho it allows SBMM aficionados to crow "100% increase in engagement!"
Truth is, you don't want 20 hours a year players becoming 40 hours a year players. There's no difference in their long term stickiness, and they aren't even monetising particularly well.
You want your 20 hour players converting into 200 hour players, then maturing to 500 hour players. They are much more valuable. But the funnel from 20 hours a year engagement to 500 hours engagement, requires people to pick something up, get frustrated, but also get shown an aspirational goal to strive to, that ultimately leads to them upping their game time - *eventually*.
Well, in virtually any type of matchmaking, apart form some comically strict SBMM, you WILL engage with people that are at least slighty better or worse than you. Because skill is not something that can be perfectly quantified, and so matching a person with exactly your skill level is not that easy. So the frustration will always be there. The goal is not to just to frustrate a person, because this may lead to simply giving up and quitting - the goal is to frustrate them just right. There is a pretty big pool of psychological data sugggesting that optimal frustration leads to motivation, that's the goal. Too little frustration - it's boring. too much - it's not worth the effort. Hitting that sweet spot is hard, because people have their "optimum" at different levels.
Now, I assume that a community specifically following a dedicated PVP streamer will have their share of stories like "first, I got absolutely stomped left and right and I had absolutely no frigging idea what was happening but I persevered and 500 h later I'm doing solo Trials", however that's mostly anecdotal data. As much as hardcore-PVP people seem to think that loosing consistantly to people 3-4 skill levels above is a very motivating and inspiring experience, it's probably not. If this was the preferred level of frustration for most people, soulslikes would be much more popular and less of an aquired taste. I assume that most people prefer more incremental challenge. And the fact is, most people freshly entering an established PVP playerpool will get stomped, but if they get stomped consistently, with few "damn, I could've won that, let's try again" clutches, they might just as well conclude that trying is not worth the effort. People learn the best when the challenge is just above their current skill level. This is true for most skills - you start with basics and then gradually move up, not immediately compete with masters of the craft.
Also, this is just speculation on my part, as we have no data, but I strongly doubt people typically jump from 20 hours straight to 500 hours of playing while skipping all the other brackets. So yeah, I belive that making some of 20hr people 440hr people is in fact a good and important start, because only some of those 40hr people will become 100hr people and so on and so on. You need that base level influx of players in order to build on it.
This is why I think that soft SBMM is important for the health of the player pool - soft, as in, you WILL meet people better and worse than you, but rarely experience helplessness coming from a one-sided stomp. Because sure, that's a wall some people will want to jump over, but the question is it enough people to significantly improve the playerpool.
Rent must of been do for the double upload??
YERRRRRRR
Outlier protection doesn’t even work though. I’m like top 1-5% in control and very frequently match with and against people who are guardian rank 2 or have sub 1000 elo. In trials it’s even worse because the “outlier protection” always puts me as the outlier even though I barely go positive in trials, my teams are always around 1000 elo and lower while the enemy team is 1500+. It’s so unbalanced that I had a game in destiny tracker that said I had a 0% chance of winning. How can that happen while the system is working properly? I literally couldn’t go flawless this weekend because I kept consistently matching top 1% players
Without knowing our own skill number like we did in halo 3 I will always feel like games aren’t fair regardless if I win or not. And knowing no matter what they will do their best to keep me at a 50% win rate I won’t be playing
This. Between lobby balancing and forced win/loss rate, it'll never be fair no matter what they do until those are gone.
The main aspect that makes PVP fun compare to PVE is unpredictability. You don’t know the outcome, you don’t know who’s gonna win or the situations that’ll about to unfold.
I feel like SBMM and the whole matchmaking system, took that fun aspect away. “Oh you won this match, we’re gonna make you lose next match cause everybody’s gotta be at 50/50 win ratio.“ or “Oh we’re going to try keep people’s KD close to 1.”
It came to a point that the feeling of unknown and anticipation is gone sometimes. You already know an outcome of a particular match before the match begins solely based on your previous match.
damn you should just fight bots
@@Dante45p original argument. Did u came up with that all by yourself? I’m impressed.
@@Dante45p he is already fighting you.
amazing come back@@jormungandr4690
Even with sbmm the thing that still amazes me is that in some of the games there are land slide stomp fests with one team having 3.00 kd across the board or higher and the other team end the match below 1.00 on all players. Like the worst team balancing I've seen several times. It's odd. Even before sbmm there wasn't these landslides with team balancing so leaning to one sided matches.... And this is in higher tiers where I'm at.
In comp I know within 1 minute if we (the team) will stomp or are getting stomped into orbit. One game I can't even break shields and instantly die before being shot at and another I just can't die. Feels rigged...
So the last bungos employee has spoken
You consistently deliver the most level-headed and appropriately nuanced opinions and facts of any Destiny 2 pvp content creator, good stuff man!!
I appreciate that!
I'm actually in the camp of thinking 1/10s is okay matching 10/10s sometimes. Back in D1, during The Dark Below, I was just getting into pvp, and very rough at it. Even though I struggled a ton against the top end players, I still enjoyed facing them because it game me visible tangible measurements of my improvements as I played. And occasionally I got to play with or against known creators. The only way to truly improve is by facing better opponents and seeing first hand what tactics worked against you. Once SBMM was heavily implemented, you'd see improvement progress nearly hault, and people got stuck in bad habits. Maybe I'm just a different type of gamer who actually enjoyed working towards something and improving myself, but I miss CBMM.
I agree
That is why and how I got better at video games. Back when there was no sbmm in games, you learn from your mistakes more often when you go against better players that punish you for them. Now with sbmm, you can do the same stupid play which is like a 50/50 it works and not learn that you can improve by not doing it next time in that same situation.
I pretty much agree, but not the 1/10 matching 10/10 parts. The 1/10s are real outliers, like unimaginably bad. 2/10, sure. 1/10s are players that can't walk and shoot at the same time, normally very young children, protecting players like that until the game realises they have a grasp of what planet they're on is fine.
Ive tried Destiny PVP again and I just fight the same people over and over again, same names, same fights, same games....there is one set of weapons that I have that seemingly works in all metas...and there isnt any other set of weapons I can use other than that in order to do just not have bad games.
They don’t want to tell you anything about PvP, because they don’t want to exceed expectations
I have a 1.0 kd in trials , I match PVP Gods with 3000 Elo almost every card . 😅Then the game says that the 0.3 and 0.7 kd’s will help me by that and putting all the Gods in the other team . This experience is so bad .😅
Imagine if you were in the 67-70 range lol and just getting shit on by 100s lol that sounds like a lot fun
D1 gameplay!
I would much rather play outside my bracket with good connection than the opposite
PLAN C!!!!!!!! My baby 😢
I am that top 1% PvP guy, and I actually feel the changes that Bungie are doing. Like both times when they widened the skill brackets. Now my games have better connection, matches are found much faster, and I can actually enjoy the game and play fun silly builds in Quickplay. U gotta love that. Though my region is like eastern Europe, maybe in NA it's somehow worse with player population in higher skill brackets, honestly have no idea.
What is stopping you from playing "fun silly builds" against your peers?
@@zTheBigFishzbecause they simply dont get the job done and you will not play well without sacrificing your fun. If the goal is a good kd and you use off meta in sbmm (especially the first form of it) youd have to bait your teammates all the time
@@zTheBigFishz This is a strange and shortsighted argument, and I think people are smart enough to realize it. If you've got a demon capable of 3-tapping/blinting you with their 10,000+ kill guns, then why would you play off-meta?
@@Existential_Robot It was a leading question. Trying to coax people into admitting that chilling/relaxing/fun builds are only fun if you are winning which means that you are basically noob stomping.
Reachway? The Halo guy?
Unless I’m still a 7 then nothing has changed as I’m at the bottom 4 out of 5 matches. I’ve basically played 0 this season and would grade myself a 4 or 5 out of 10 at this stage win a middling 1.15 KDA.. (D1 I was a 7-8 out of 10 player).
Do it like OG Halo. Social games and ranked games. Social for connection based. Ranked for sbmm.
Doesnt change a thing dude. This is the first weekend that i havent been able to go solo flawless or flawless in any playlist, because the matches were just waaaay too divided. One of my matches, i had a teammate running around with ace of spades(on console) completely wrecking the enemy team. Im a 1.17, and my guy was a 3.0. A FREAKIN 3.0!!! my games are normally a .9 to 1.2 kd lobby. But geez its been way higher and things have been very unbalanced. BUT, i dont blame sbmm. I blame the very low playerbase. Cuz even at my skill, i constantly match with the same people. The less people that play the game, the worse off its gunna get. Because people of my skill are sick of getting owned and feeling like your terrible at your favorite just make you wanna quit and play zombies all weekend🤷♂️🤷♂️
Trying to have any modicum of fun in Destiny is like trying to squeeze blood out of stone; virtually fucking impossible
it should never pick one bracket lower tho
Everyone is aware of the bell curve when it comes to player skill distribution across the population. So keeping the at in mind, the numbers of either extreme are so low that they would rarely be interacting with each other anyway. If player is so bad that they lose to average players(slightly above or below) then they’re losing their games regardless. That person is not gonna have fun no matter what. There aren’t enough people at the bottom or the top to keep each group separate from the rest of the pool. Let me be clear on something else as well. I think lobbying balancing also needs to go. Just like with matchmaking, let the dice roll and if you get a stacked team vs an average team, oh well. That’s what the mercy rule is for. It’s better to have games end quickly than have players be stuck in a game for 10 minutes because two guys on each team are decimating people on the opposite. Which is where the game is currently at. It also creates an environment where players are now just at each other’s throats because they were forced to carry each other or be carried and unable to contribute in a meaningful way.
Exactly, thank you!
I just hate matching the same people that I have blocked in trials and control. Comp for me personally is somehow better 😂
I’ve yet to have any issue with SBMM. The simple answer and reason some have problems with it is teammates in your fire team. If you’re on console and you team up with a pc player; it’s going to match you with more pc players(I know; duh). If you’re on console; team up with console players. On pc; team with pc players.
If you team up from console to pc players. It’s going to match you with those pc players skip base.
Why is this difficult for so many to understand?
In destiny. The agarythm decides or tries to decide the outcome of the game before the match starts. This is the issue because once your win percentage is above 50 the game matches you to lose. No matter your skill
I think in your example of a player having a rating out of 10, theb there should never be a difference larger than 5 points IMO. So a 1/10 shouldn't match anyone higher than a 6/10. It does seem like that is being somewhat accomplished, if your graphic is accurate
This would be such a beautiful system to have my goodness. Honestly tho I think the matchmaking is getting better cuz IB felt WAAYYYYY more chill than the last buutt the past 2 weeks in trials I was getting duplicates like triple the rate it felt like than normal checkmate matchmaking is lowkey really good imo tho. This REALLY opened my eyes on the insight I wish studios would be more transparent but there probly very specific reasons y they dont but Idk 😂
Im just fighting trials players full gear in bronze cant even make it out and im not a bad player but not good should see some movement
Sbmm was the final nail in the coffin for me leaving this game
I don't wanna match players 30% better than me in any playlist, especially trials.
All that I know is, in casual matches I should be matching with players in the middle of the gaussian skill distribution curve. I should not have been playing competitive shooters since around 2005 and have below a 1.5k/d in any game’s casual playlist.
Weird cause 3/4 of match i played are totally unbalanced...
I been absolutely giving it to Bungie on twitter because Im so dam sick of the absolute terrible connection in game. Especially in Australia cos they peer us over to asia where they have a local host and we play at a massive disadvantage. They surive like extra damage and we have to walk off make dinner, do the dishes and then come back to game to finally see them take damage from our shots but they start healing before hand so dont die. And then they teleport and lag all over the place or double damage us and kill us with weapons they dont have equiped (lag switch cheats). Game needs servers if Marathon can get them so can D2.