The faith of CS Lewis, JRR Tolkien & Owen Barfield. Malcolm Guite & Mark Vernon on The Inklings
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2019
- Mark Vernon and Malcolm Guite join Justin Brierley to talk about how the Inklings, a group of Oxford intellectuals including CS Lewis, JRR Tolkien and Owen Barfield, made sense of Christian faith.
Mark Vernon shares how he draws on Barfield’s approach in his new book ‘A secret history of Christianity’. Theologian-poet Malcolm Guite responds.
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Thrilled to see these two guys on the show! Thanks Justin!
Paul VanderKlay love your channel Paul! Have you listened to Malcolm’s podcast on ITunes? It’s not got any recent uploads but lots of juicy teachings. His musings on beauty and myth would intersect quite well with JP. :)
Nice to see you here! I promise we will visit you when we at Sacramento next time (We were in SF in June).
You’ve got to be kidding, what a bunch of word-fog, especially from the ‘agnostic’.
How did I not know about this episode!?!?! The CZcams algorithm has failed me spectacularly in this.
Grandson Owen Barfield has published some new books. He gave us a wonderful talk recently in England.
So good that he continues with his grandfathers work.
Hands down, my new favorite episode! All that’s missing is some pipes and a few pints.
Two books of interest related to this topic: G. K. Chesterton’s “The Everlasting Man” which presents the “Christ is when poetry and philosophy meet, where mythology becomes history” ideas Tolkien shared with Lewis can be found. Chesterton influenced all these men.
The second book is “Toward the Gleam” by T. M. Doran, which I don’t want to give much away on, but all the Inkling characters show up in this imaginative novel.
Stunning discussion. Confirms many of my own intuitions over the years. Much thanks
and God bless...
CHEERS FROM ST. LOUIS MO!
Tolkien as a Catholic was more willing to go all the way in terms of imagination, sacramentality and realism, Lewis' protestantism kept him more flirting rather than fully surrendering to these things.
I think I know what you mean. Was thinking how amazing Tolkiens world building is and how I feel like I’m really visiting the place and meeting the people in his stories. I love Lewis too and I feel a contrast in his works where it’s more about the philosophy and pointing towards heavenly things. They’re both going the same way but Tolkien makes it feel more ok to be human and accept and enjoy it while being a Christian and seeing all things great and small pointing towards God where Lewis kind of jolts me out of the everyday and makes me think in awe of the transcendent. I love both of those ways but am more into Tolkien at the moment as I’m reading TLOTR for the first time at 49 😊
Anyone reading Lewis deeply will realise that his wariness about our limitations paid dividends. Truth, even when 'breathed through silver' via the imagination has to be rooted in an entirely objective source - the love of God, evidenced in the total giving of Christ, so well depicted in the death of Aslan. That vital truth, embedded in the Hebrew scriptures (Isaiah 53) and the Gospel (John 3:16) is what savours Lewis's life and writings and truly fuels our fascination with that extraordinary story of what transpired in the lives of these friends.
Yes.
I stumbled across this. It’s nothing new for me to “discover” things which are already famous, but better Kate then never I suppose. Great show and glad I’m finally onboard. 🙏
Yes same here, I wish more Christians new about this channel, it really helps Christians think.
Wish I could like this more than once. God Bless.
Thank you.
See to it that you are not deceived... Luke 21:8
Many of my ideas on Christianity are explored here but never in normal sermons. I feel too much mystical scripture has simply been put aside & must be meditated on anew. Christ then becomes real not merely symbolic.
Perhaps the reason you don't hear it in sermons is because it is heretical.
@@martinploughboy988 I pride myself on my orthodoxy. Never leave the safety rail of scripture.
I have never liked Premier. My wife listens to it, and some of my friends do but it is just not my cup of tea.
And then I discovered Justin's interviews ... !!
Good conversations on this channel, but this one better than most. Much of Goethe and Steiner implied here. You probably know that Owen Barfield wrote a biography of Steiner...I think it was called "Scientist of the Invisible", which phrase seems to capture much that is going on here
Sorry, it was A.P.Shepherd who wrote that book, not Barfield
@@1mpritchard A Scientist of the Invisible' is a wonderful book. Available but sadly out of print.
' The I am is the Way , the Truth , and the Life ..'
Please have one or better both of these gentlemen on with Jordan Peterson to discuss Barfield! Jordan is missing his essential work. He may be need him as Lewis and Tolkien did.
I was prepared to love this. Instead, am heartbroken.
Why heartbroken?
The elephant in the room here , is the lack of understanding that Roman Catholicism is the be all and end all of the Rings. Not surprising that given a recent exhibition at Oxford on Tolkien's Ring , that looked at every aspect of his life and influences , didn't mention once his catholic faith !
11:50 That Barfield finally was baptized as an Anglican seems to be a little known fact. He is always associated with Steiner's Anthroposophy. It would be interesting to know if he left any account of his conversion to orthodoxy and his subsequent view of Steiner's religious system, which has been condemned for false teaching. To be truly Anglican, he would have had to confess the Creed which affirms that Jesus Christ is the unique incarnation of God, being the Logos, the eternal Son, one of the Holy Trinity.
An idea sadly neglected in this interview.
That guy has my surname also, long distant cousin perhaps.
This was very interesting but one extremely important element is almost nowhere to be found. It lacked Lewis, Tolkien and Barfield's view of the Christ.
The most important thing in one's life is who and what they believe Jesus to be. I know that Lewis and Tolkien's opinion on that is very obvious, I don't know much about Barfield, but it seams like maybe the two guests don't share that view.
Jesus is God incarnate. No one can be/become God.
I saw that Brierley was trying to tilt the conversation that way and was reassuring us that what we were hearing was not flat out heresy as it seamed.
I don't know what the guests believed, but it sure did not look good, at least in this conversation.
Amen
Forgive me, but I can't seem to find a 'question' area on the Unbelievable site. Therefore, my question is not concerning this video (sadly, because it is a great discussion). I need to understand something else completely. In Mathew and Daniel, the 'Abomination of Desolation' is referenced and we are asked/warned to understand it. I don't. Is this referencing Satan? Is it referencing the falling away? It appears to be an actual physical thing or structure... please help. I'm a little disturbed. Again, forgive me for asking in this venue because it has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. (if you know of a 'question, or message' area on the Unbelievable site, please let me know). Thank you for your tolerance.
It's basically about the Jewish temple. Jewish theologians interpret it differently to Christians. Christians and the new testament see it as having to do with the destruction of the temple. Jews primarily see it as a desecration of the temple prior to this. As it is a vague term it is open to speculation. But all in all, it refers to something bad happening to the Jewish temple.
@@1000whispering Thank you so much for taking the time to help me with this question. It means a lot and I'm going to think on it more. Again..I thank you.
Suzette: Premier "Christian" Radio is completely irresponsible -- to the point of "disgraceful" -- in *_actually_* helping actual Christians or people *_actually_* considering Christianity.
I could never support PCR as a ministry, and Justin Brierley is an egregious offender. There are serious problems on their internal comment section that he's aware of and completely unwilling to deal with.
@@20july1944 I don't know if it's fair to talk about Justin Brierley and Premier Christianity like that. It would be better to first analyze the expectations you have set towards what you think you are supposed to get from their show. "Unbelievable" is a referent, worldwide, as to how to engage with culture from a Christian perspective. That, by itself, is enough to praise the work they do as an example to follow for the rest of the Christian community all around the world. To help a Christian, you need to have first a Christian that wants to be helped. Real help comes from God, His word, the outstanding life of Jesus on Earth, an open heart and a constant communication with God through prayer. "Unbelievable" or any other ministry or Church around the world are not responsible of how we all direct our free will and willingness to have a relationship with God.
@@askandwonder18 Well, I *_AM_* sure I'm right to be disgusted with PCR and Brierley in particular.
If you'll post your email for a moment, we can have a private Christian-to-Christian discussion about it.
I'll capture your email immediately, you can delete it, and I'll contact you.
*_If you disagree with me, fine, but I don't think you will._*
By looks alone, these two are the epitome of those who would be into fantasy books.
Hell yes
Jason Aus I had the same metal reaction. Hell yeah hobbit professors and Blake enthusiasts 🤘🏻
It would be great if they added in some Joseph Campbell here. The Hero's Journey ties it ALL together. Cross culturally everyone has been telling the same powerful mythological journey.
Interesting fact: C. S. Lewis appeared twice after his death to J. B. Philips to encourage him to continue his work in translating the New Testament into modern English. Typical of a man who wrote so much about this sort of thing 😁.
As if Christian ideas aren’t any wackier than Steiner. That’s rich. I think the wiser path is to stay open and not align oneself with any particular view. Who are we to judge the face of being? Embrace all that comes and greet them as guests. Rumi had a good idea there. I would say psychedelics and any meditation or creative practice can bring one to oneself. They are trying to save the appearances. If Christ bids one come, he bids one come and die and live in the heart. Christ is just a patchwork of ancient traditions. The heart is always here.
Barfield disliked this.
When one says Christ Conciousness that sounds new age and perhaps heretical.
Labels obscure understanding.
@@Dukiedukester the words Satan, devil and occult are labels that do not go with God, the church and Jesus. New Age is demonic and should be differentiated from that which is holy. Peter wrote that we have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness and into His marvelous light. The New Age is fostered by the evil one, it is a deception and should be distinguished from the true light Jesus Christ. Satan transforms himself into an angel of light in order to deceive many. We need to be able to discern what is from the Lord and what is satan's deception; what is good from what is evil. That's all.
It is ..
@@Dukiedukester To the contrary. Deceit obscures understanding. That's why as much as the wicked make statements like yours they still use labels themselves. That inconsistency reveals their deceit. They don't want labels that expose them is what they would say if they were interested in the Truth.
These guys are suppose to be scholars? Please help me to understand, I'm not a scholar, I'm a simple man. Do majority of scholars read things out of context? Do majority of scholars come to a conclusion of its texts with their biased opinions?
it appears that you are not as you do not give the evidence / examples you want to discuss where they are out of context. for a "simple" approach just type in the times to link to the point were you find something to be out of context, but you might want to argue why you think it to be so.
You guys are simply beating around what is right in front of your eyes. The Eastern Orthodox Christian faith. No need for eastern cults like yoga etc. The 'west' and its extreme rationalisation of the Christian faith over the centuries, accompanied by an attempt to scientifically explain the spirit has been completely severed from an integral part of what was the faith, spirituality, and mystery (not in the far eastern or Indian way). This has inevitably led to the total secularisation and subsequent collapse of the churches. Open your eyes and embrace the fullness of the Christian faith, which can only be found in the Orthodox Christian faith. I strongly advise the psychotherapist guy to take a trip up to the Holy Mount Athos and talk with some of the monks there. It will be a life-changing experience.
Orthodox Christianity is blossoming into life again as the Western church shrinks & fades.
I am happy for those who find life in Christ in Eastern Orthodoxy. I would say, though, not to overlook the depth of Christian spirituality in the Western Church. To some extent I find that more accessible to the lay person. The Mount Athos hesychast tradition can seem to be overly given to an individualistic pursuit of a tangible experience, through a focus on one's body and in silent loneliness. In the Western tradition, the fruits of one's contemplation can be shared with others, and encouragement given to pursue union with God without monastic isolation from others. To be in the world, but not of the world. To be united to God, but live among family and neighbours. Each to his/her own calling.
P.S. Mark Vernon is clearly not Christian as he rejects the unique divinity of Christ as the eternal Son of God, and His atoning sacrifice.
@@anselman3156 That's sad. I pray he humbles himself before the only Saviour.
"You see in Protestantism the "Faith" dying out in a desert: we see in Rome [and Eastern Orthodoxy] the "Faith" smothered in a jungle." [C S Lewis]
This sounds to me to be new age. It is the occult and is called in the Bible "doctrines of demons". 1 Timothy 4:1. I am just concerned.