Embracing Push Forward Combat in DOOM
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- In this 2018 GDC session, id Software's Kurt Loudy & Jake Campbell detail the philosophy behind the combat design of 2016's DOOM and its implementation, and discuss the possibility for its inclusion in multiple genres.
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As someone who doesn't understand crap about programming, Tthe amount of technical wizardry that went to every level of this game amazes me. The amount of systems at work probably rival those of most open world games.
acepedro12 and it’s all hidden under the hood! Once you realize how it works, you really do realize how much it’s like a board game!
The complexity would not rival that of an open world game.
DOOM 2016 was the most fun I had with a single player fps in years !
You know it's good when you want to replay it over and over again
Oh my gosh, how have I never realized the chainsaw giving ammo is the spiritual evolution of the classic chainsaw being infinitely usable? Instead of relying on one tool when out of ammo, you now use that tool in a aingle instance to give you ammo to keep up the pace and variety.
Nice.
11:12 "The problem with player AOE"
Blood punch: "yeah, about that...."
Surprised to see so many people anti-Doom 2016 in the comments here. Was a fantastic game, and as they said here, really brought the core of the original Doom to new life in a modern wrapper.
Plus Snapmap mode was AWESOME
Ive only started playing it and I enjoy it. Having so much fun.
Who? What comment? There are literally 14 dislikes total 😂
@@slaughtered777 I'll roll back to 2 years ago and check when I get the ability 😅
tbh it was better than eternal when it comes to art style and ambiance
doom 2016 was a fantastic video game and a worthy heir to the 90s originals.
everyone who worked on it from top to bottom, bottom to top, did a fantastic, fantastic job and it makes me truly wish for a industry-wide "oscars" of video game development where all aspects of the team are recognised for their contributions to top video game releases. if anyone knows of such an award please let me know. since i am gushing about this subject, i also consider god of war 2018 to be such a game.
The Game Awards exist. But everyone views that as a joke.
What a genuinely good presentation this is. This is the type of video that anybody who _doesn't_ make games should see, to get some perspective on what goes into game design and development.
Doom ruined my FPP experience... I now expect every fpp game to reward aggressive gameplay not hiding behind stuff... you can guess how many times I die.
Destiny and Halo reward taking cover.
Doom, Wolfenstein, Quake - these games are for those who are tired of hiding and fighting in covers and moving realistically slow like a snail. They want meat, action, speed - and they got it.
This is just (old)new subgenre of FPS. Don't expect CoD or Battlefield or whatever you playing to be looking like Doom 2016 in the future.
Иван Иванов titanfall 2's campaign does a wonderful job at not holding your hand for combat, sure it feels similar to cod but all that goes away once you keep running laps around your enemies and have fun
I've actually started playing shooters on the easiest difficulties after playing DOOM 2016; simply because it's more fun to be able to move around the arenas and fight like a madman than it is to overcome punishing and mostly unfair combat. For example, Uncharted 4 became 100 times more fun to me on the lowest difficulty, since I could use all of the movement options and engagement options to their fullest extents without being destroyed by hitscan gunfire.
Hello, Conner.
Still immortal?
This video really puts in perspective how much is going on in the background that you arent even aware of
Awesome talk. DOOM was an amazing display of how to capture oldschool FPS feeling with modern AAA mechanics.
The arena at 8:23 was used for the rune trials, though it was given a gothic makeover.
The best GDC talk about combat imo, thanks for going both high and low level in it!
Completely agree. Sadly however... it's one of the only :/ crazy considering combat systems are so important in games
Great talk that shows how the incredibly fun combat of Doom was the result of a lot of work, deliberation and playtesting.
Dashing, hooking around an enemy to be able to shoot them from behind, these are literally the selling points of eternal
kinda funny how they found ways to make it work
Best talk on GDC by far.
I agree, this was real interesting to listen to and knowing that there are all those amazing mechanics in it that arent really noticable in a casual playthrough made doom 2016 even better
my absolute favourite talk is the behind the music one for doom by the way
49:10 The pose of a real player
Another great talk from Jake Campbell. Make sure to watch Bringing Hell to Life: AI and Full Body Animation in DOOM from GDC 2017
The hell is up with all the anti-Doom 2016 people in the comments? iD delivered a quality product that they clearly enjoyed making. And with Doom Eternal, they continue used that. It also recovers a lot of the mechanics of the OG Doom and still delivering enough new stuff to keep it entertaining. Plus have enough of a story that when presented, gave you a bit of a break from the breakneck speed of slaughtering demons. 10/10, looking forward to DLC for Eternal.
Probably Karen's who think doom is a satanic game when it's really Christian.
I absolutely loved Doom. I completed 661 video games so far, and Doom is easily one of my favorite FPS games of all time. It excells on so many levels. Everything is extremely well designed and thought out, such as combat/gunplay, collectibles, upgrade system, soundtrack, level design, etc. I hope in the sequel we will see more unique bosses and some new ways to move, such as an ability to dash forward, backward, and sideways, just like in Shadow Warrior 2. It would be able to add an extra layer of depth to the combat.
Which Doom?
I think maybe some of us missed the point that this game went into the 'forward combat' direction? Reloading in COD imo is mandatory - not in Doom. They are different games ppl
You should've played 665 games before playing doom so that it'd be 666th.
@@jonathan4554 YOU WIN THE INTERNET
this aged well
Man, this game has such creativity and interesting design choices that came together to fulfill the design pillars REALLY well.
The talk was insightful and well presented, really good
Loved the technical details on the AI systems, it certainly inspires me to implement similar systems for some of my own prototypes
Reviewers remarked that a comparison of the original DOOM and DOOM 2016 shows how little games changed in the past two decades. The truth couldn‘t be further away from that. These technical talks show just how inventive this game really is. And fucking awesome on top of that. A big thank you to all the developers involved for a game that reminds me of what FPS games meant 20 years ago before Halo started a trend of slow, scripted and unbearably boring.
The thing about reloads in DOOM 2016 is that most of the weapons have an intuitive reason as to why they don't need to reload. The exceptions are the shotgun and rocket launcher.
How the hell were the soldier class in the original Doom 1 and 2 walking health packs? They didn't drop anything but weapons...
Great presentation with a lot of incredible details that make the combat work I didn't even know existed. Thanks a lot!
Interesting to see all these ideas that were cut out of 2016 be added in Eternal. The AoE punch. The lunge. Etc. I guess Id just needed more time to iron them out to get them to fit into Doom's combat.
Very much interesting stuff! I didn't know you could actually get the AI to fight each other.
it's pretty rare compared to the old games. I've done about 10 nightmare runs and I can scarcely remember seeing it.
I made a visibility system inspired by he's Tether one :)
I used the Light Probes as the Visibility Points positions, and 16 traces per frame on my Core i5 takes average 0.25ms per frame
Pretty easy, pretty effective
What's the game?
I stopped everything and immediately clicked when I read the title. I'm a huge fan of old school FPS
@48:25 The guys making the Complex Doom Mod need to be told that sentence. :p
Imagine game developers spending all of their time, effort, and energy to make the game as fun as possible for the player, and removing anticipated frustrations, instead of intentionally making the game as frustrating as possible for players, so that 1% of them will buy a microtransaction to eliminate the frustration.
Both Doom GDC talks are a fascinating look into highly skilled people genuinely trying their hardest to make the best product possible. The team at ID are developmental Gods, creating top of the line experiences that pull no punches and make no compromises. Sure, if they wanted they could've made difficulty levels scale the enemies damage and HP. It's good enough for Halo, why not Doom? Instead difficulty scales the number of attacks enemies can make and how accurately they can make them, more effectively mirroring the players "difficulty" for the enemies. Also, their games run far smoother than they have any right to. If you want a drastic highlight of this look up some framerate videos for Doom Eternal running on various GPUs, Doom Eternal *vastly* outperforms every single game released at roughly the same time, and looks incredible while doing it. Any game made by ID is an instant buy from me, they are truly in a class of their own.
I kinda want to see a mod that makes “no tokens” a feature for the AI. Just simulate a fight where the enemy WILL bumrush you or subject you to a firing squad as if they actually wanted to kill you effectively.
Bravo Developers!! Bravo!! I cannot thank you enough for such a brilliant edition to a masterpiece!
Hey iD software dont be afraid of hurting the player more. Theirs another thing that i miss from old doom. Being in a tough spot abd finally killing the monsters. Feels rewarding when you overcome an your death 15 times. I trust you guys out of all the devs/studios
You must not have played 2016 on Nightmare...
I got rekt on Hurt me plenty....
Merkab very hard difficulty! Getting hit basically was your warning - “don’t let this happen again!”
@@Allstin we won’t be as forgiving next time...
It looks like rage 2 is where all the abandoned doom 4 ideas went
Great presentation. I wonder if COD (and others) have just been copy/ pasting AI code since 2005. I'm recently replaying F.E.A.R, and the AI is still better than most FPS since. I'm impressed how much id focuses on making the game and AI benefit the PLAYERS and making the game FUN.
The thing is, the AI is probably better then ever before, but the key to a "smart" AI is to make sure it can kill you. If you can take, say, five sniper hit while it misses sometimes, it will feel dumber then beïng able to be hit only twice.
The joke is on you - the AI in FEAR wasn't actually all that smart. It's the tons of animation triggers they put into the levels that made them seem so interesting.
It's funny that the speaker mentions HUD management negatively, because in Doom Eternal, I (personally) felt that the freeze bomb, shrapnel grenade, flamethrower and chainsaw fuel management were a cognitive load.
In most encounters, since I had used runes to lower the dash recharge to the lowest possible amount, I was totally dependent on that to survive.
Doom has always been my favorite game from the original forth. When Doom 3 came out I was at first upset because it wasn't bum rush like 1 & 2. Shortly into the game, however, I ended up loving the hell out of it. I beat it at least 50 times. Then when 2016 came out I was upset it wasn't like 3. Lol suffice to say that didn't take long for me to get over and I've played it multiple times so far. I just hope they come out with some other game like Doom 3 again because that game scared the crap out of me every time I played.
-_-
0:54 swap the places of combat design and AI design. The list now gives you an acronym: PACE. Perfect.
Amazing talk!!
Thank you, really informative and inspiring GDC talk!
I never finished the game but I never realized the factions will fight
This was fantastic! Why was Doom a breath of fresh air? Innovations like this
This is really interesting even for a non coder.... Thank you.
Great talk, still some people will keep calling Doom a dumb shooter, rip & tear. 😈
Because it is compared to the original one.
It's funny how the technology to run games advanced, but design/gameplay declined.
Troll detected
Because games are more complex nowadays.
Romero was designing levels as he was playing doom and experimenting with the mechanics. He didn't had everything exactly planned out because it was easy to switch back and forth from the game to the editor and change level on the fly.
With modern shooters this kind of design approach is no longer possible because of the complexity that goes into creating a level. Everything needs to be planned out more and has to account of scripted events and an underlying upgrade mechanic that seems mandatory for AAA shooters.
Weak excuse. Hardware got also more complex, so high-end monsters like Cryengine already allow for real-time editing.
41:24 To be fair though, I'd love to try and fight them like this xD
Dave-K Oh god the lag.... XD
doom eternal has a mod that can double or even triple the token count. it also halves or thirds the cooldown for tokens.
Great talk, Will Ferrell.
I have discovered that after playing a lot of doom all other games are also featuring push forward combat
I hate most modern fps and I was born in 2000 so i never got to experience doom until I got into retro gaming and the gaming conventions are different enough to make it hard for me to play Doom 2016 is such a perfect game for me cause I get to see what people loved about og doom
We need something like this for DE
How many tokens the enemies have on Ultra Nightmare?
good
Is any of these presentations avaliable for download in any place?
I really would like those slides for study, and maybe for the future, classes.
I think you can get access to all of the slides and the talks on the GDC site? Possibly. I'm not sure if they are all free or what. I know GDC only releases a handful of the talks for free and a lot of them are kept in the vault, which you have to pay a decent chunk of change for. Not saying it's not a valuable industry resource, but it is an investment for sure.
Yeah. I'd pay for those if i need to study or give lessons in the future anyway. XD
doom was so good/fresh, it felt like it came out in 2017.
good stuff
the one knob that put a thumbs down...smh shame shame
Funny how doom eternal actually has stars and birdie noises on stunned enemies
RAGE 2 HYPE
i do share your hype :D
Ic3m4n2010 doesnt they collab on rage 2? The fps aspect provided by id and the open world driving aspect by avalanche.
TheRadioSquare maybe he doesnt have internet
How the hell did you put this game on a Nswitch?
D.Cipher well optimization, clean codes and efficient game engine.
They also used tricks to control resources. For an example: they used lower resolution texture for the world, while, using high quality texture for character model.
Nice
Doom without a heavy metal soundtrack isn't Doom.
Thank god Doom 2016 did have a great Metal Soundtrack courtesy of Mick Gordon.
yeah game engines should go back to just playing midi files (rolls eyes)
I didn't know Will Ferrell was a game designer for DOOM
Serious Sam could learn a bit from this.
they're games with different design philosophies. Serious Sam shares the speed of the Doom series, but otherwise its combat is closer to a bullet hell game.
I think OP was referring to the unnecessary reloading in serious sam 3
Serious Sam is galactic miles above the absolute slog that was nu-D44M.
The nu-ID / Zenimax should take notes from Croteam instead; can't wait for the SS4 to show how a non-casualized and console-downgraded oldschool shooters are done right (again).
Spurdo Mies; the reloading in SS3 was not pointless. It added depth to the combat, and made you choose your weapon more carefully depending on the situation.
TheRadio; it's not a mess in any way. D4 on the other hand is a literally schizophrenic pile of fuck ups that not only water down the legacy and importance of DooM, but also makes the gameplay a terrible slog.
that place has horrible echo
I'll still snipe demons with my pistol from at least 300 metres distance
Laughs in ancient gods
I cringe anytime someone says "clip" when talking about magazines. Nonetheless, good and entertaining presentation.
Probably a reference to the old Doom games.
What's the difference?
@@tiagotiagot A clip is a simple piece of metal that holds bullets, in order to load a magazine. A magazine gives those bullets the spring tension in order for the gun's bolt to chamber a round. For instance, a stripper/ charger clip loads the internal magazine in a bolt action rifle.
I recommend looking up hickoc45's video on clips vs magazines.
The talk from Mick Gorden about his music was better. He was so enthusiastic. You could see that he had fun. Here is a guy reading a speech, not talking about his journey or experience.
But still, i have to admit that i find it interesting. There is so much technical stuff behind that game, you cant see. That is really amazing with it.
He also isn't an introverted dev.
yes, that must it be. Haven't thought about something like that. Thanks for the answer.
Yeah because this is a competition who has a better talk...
Yeah this guy must be an insider, because he just waves over everything that I find important, or ant to know more about.
Such as?
while the gameplay loop they designed is great it was very restrictive. I didnt like the glory kills because it forced a type of play style. Taking your time was not effective at all. Very smart to make the enemies less accurate the more you move but it is not a generic ai solution. The gameplay is trying to fool the player, this is a risky trick but it paid off.
To be completely fair, they weren't trying to make it approachable a bunch of different ways.
Ill never understand why reloading is in most games. It adds no value other than "realism" to unrealistic weapons. All it does is delay gameplay and prevent player skill from matter in some situations. For example, in Titanfall 2. There are many 2v1 situations that im skilled enough to win, but because i have to wait on a reload animation the 2nd player can kill, despite the fact that without the delay, i could easily down them as well. It also just kills a game's flow.
I'm not an avid fps player but from what I've understood, that little "realism" brings a lot of tactics to the gameplay. In Counter-Strike, it's essential to know when to reload and you cannot just block a pathway by spamming bullets at a doorway forever. I'm sure it's the same case in many games, where the designers especially want to separate themselves from old-school arena shooters. Not everyone wants to follow the Doom and Quake formula where things happen more rapidly and the gratification is constant and fast. And one might point out that ducking for cover actually breaks the game's monotone gameplay and in that way, makes it more interesting and contrasted. But your opinions are just as valid, I just tried to come up with some countering arguments :D
Also one point about Titanfall 2: Seems a bit cocky to say that you're much more skillful than the opponent when he's the only one who's studied at reloading at a proper timeframe :D I'm guessing Titanfall's combat is more than just aiming.
It might in games like Arma. But in a mainstream FPS game? It offers zero tactics. They are too simple.
Also gratification in old school shooters is the opposite of fast. TIme to kill in these games is very high. Its usually the ones with reloading that give you kills instantly.
And no. No weapon in titanfall two has enough rounds to kill well positioned opponents without running away and reloading first. And Titanfalls combat is more than aiming. Its all about positioning, and keeping your speed up. But reloading? Does nothing to increase the skill gap. It actually shrinks it but not allowing players who can, outgun multiple opponents the ability to.
Wylie28 well i cant speak for all the games but i get splattered in quake and doom multiplayer just as fast as in CS :D what i meant is that if you're enjoying going ham all the time, arena shooters are better for it since you respawn so quickly, where as in other games you might not respawn at all
The modern ones? I haven't played thier multiplayer.
Wylie28 well i haven't played the og quake multiplayer but both in the old and the new doom are the same. And the new quake. combat is almost always over in under a second :0
Great design philosophy here... which they completely threw out during the boss fights.
To be fair, they were more like reflex challenges unto themselves than actual fights. Shoot at the big guy ad nauseam while avoiding their attacks.
I mean, the spongier any of the enemies got, the ironically more basic and less interesting it became to fight them. Barons of Hell often forced me to devolve into back pedaling while pumping round after round after round into them just for the ever imaginative finish of ripping a horn off and giving them a bloody mustache.
If the game had any real flaws, it was that they had common fodder which could be dispatched with early weaponry, and then they had mini-bosses that basically required alternate fire modes or heavy weapons to kill in a timely and ammo efficient manner. There wasn't really anything in between in terms of health. 1-3 shotgun shells, or 8+.
Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here. A boss is a big event that can't follow standard gameplay without diminishing its impact. You could put the Cyberdemon in a large arena with small enemies such as imps, but you'll lose some of the focus on the Cyberdemon (and thus the fact that it's a boss) because you have to deal with the imps. You would also have to dumb down its attacks - you can't have lots of high damage, dodge critical attacks in conjunction with other enemies that also require attention, else it becomes too difficult for the player. Not to mention some of the attacks could kill the other enemies unintentionally. So once you've introduced other enemies and reduced the attacks, it essentially becomes a standard enemy just larger and with more health, which doesn't have the same impact as it's more like standard gameplay.
I actually really like the bosses in this game. Yes you essentially just shoot them until they die, but it's a shooter - add too many non-shooting elements to tackling a boss and it leaves the shooter genre, conflicting with the rest of the game. What I like though is that they all have a wide variety of attacks and sometimes combine them, and they've been developed so that movement is key as with the rest of the game. You can't just back away continually whilst shooting and expect to succeed - you have to learn the attacks and how to dodge them. I also like the two-stage fights of the Cyberdemon and Hell Guards, as with the first playthrough you think you've killed them, just to be faced with another fight.
dml! how am i supposed to refute a person's opinions when they do it for me?
I don't see anything contradictory in my opinions.
well you said you weren't sure what i was getting at and then you go onto confirm almost all the ways in which the devs went against the grain of their own designs (circular arenas, static targets, repetitive action). let me speak plainly; the bosses [aside from the hell guards] were boring.
I like the idea, but locking player into short animations every couple of seconds is bad solution. More elegant way would be for enemies to spawn items that would quickly disappear.
As a big fan of the original games; meaning I've played them since release and still play them about once a week; I don't see how this design philosophy jives with the original. I always took the name "doom" to mean that you, the player, are doomed. You're just a regular marine stuck in a hopeless situation. Yet with a lot of skill and luck, you somehow manage to survive and be the hero that saves Earth from hell's hordes. In the new game the Doomguy is ordained to be a hero. He's somehow already legendary, though how he gained that legendary status is left unexplained; curious since the new game is intended as a reboot rather than a sequel. The arena combat with monsters that spawn in to an area that you're locked in to is very contrived and not true to the original. The original game was much more tactical. You could escape an overwhelming horde if you planned ahead enough to leave yourself a place to go. Otherwise you might find your back against the wall, running out of ammo and health. The monsters wouldn't dance around you like a marshall arts movie. They would mercilessly rip you to shreds like you would expect a demon to. The glory kills seem like a product of those that were frustrated with the original game and ended up playing it on god mode all the time. Why do you need guns if every demon can be butchered with your bare hands? When they make a game that's supposedly "updated, but true to the original", maybe they should bother to fire up the original and play it enough to see what was good about it.
Well I think DOOM4 captures the most important aspect of DOOM1+2's combat which is avoiding slow moving projectiles and fast player movement. In the original game most enemies attack with dodgeable fireballs, imps, hell knights, Caecodemons, revnants, etc. DOOM2016 puts a modern spin on that concept with telegraphed attacks that deal a ton of damage if you don't avoid them, forcing you to stay on the move. The enemies that don't do this in DOOM1+2, Primarily Chaingunners and Archfiends, are IMO some of the worst points of the original doom and don't need to be repeated. Those fights mostly degenerate into playing peakaboo around a corner or stunlocking with the chaingun and aren't very enjoyable.
Where the 2 games *heavily* diverge is that DOOM4 relies mostly on its enemy, AI, and combat design, where as DOOM1 and 2 relies mostly on its level design, which 2016 does mediocre job with, too many lazy arena fights as you pointed out. So on that they're definitely very different games in that sense.
Now as to the tone of the game, I think its up to interpretation. If you look back at old DOOM commercials, some play up the horror aspect while others put emphasis on killing demons like a digital Rambo. DOOM3 tried to play up the horror theme. DOOM4 does the action route. I don't think either one is wrong, per say, but they're quite different.
Now they could have just made an updated DOOM clone with old school level design, but really there were dozens of those back in the 90's, or you could go play Serious Sam. We don't really need another one of those.
excuse me wile i slightly roll my eyes with some of the points made about "Push Forward Combat" , while i finish the rest of the Blood (1997) campaign over here ;)
I just like to play games at my own pace, which can mean really taking my time and moving very slowly and strategically in some levels, and I did that in all the original Doom games too. The original Doom allowed me to "push forward" if that's what I chose, or I could take hours to move through every little section taking out a single enemy at a time by finding the exact place in the level to best fight them, if that's what I chose. When the designer is dictating how I actually play, however, rather than just making a great game and letting me play it the way that feels right to me, I actually consider that bad game design. Games like Doom 1/2, Duke Nukem 3D, GoldenEye 007, Half-Life, Halo: CE, Counter-Strike, etc, are considered some of the absolute best fps games of all time precisely because they don't force gamers to play only one way.
Ultimately, the original Doom did things better. It pretty much allowed everything you're touting above without sacrificing the other end of the spectrum for those gamers that didn't like to just run around blasting non-stop. In situations where it made more sense to figure out a way to make the enemies and environments actually work to their advantage, with the player planning a strategy in how and when to attack (such as circling around a group of enemies without being noticed and then detonating a bunch of exploding barrels, or shooting at a room of them from a distance to get them to fight each other and then just waiting until near the end of the battle to engage), classic Doom players could absolutely take that approach and be rewarded for it and still feel totally badass because they used both brain and brawn to wipe out the demonic scum.
Also, having all the glowing ammo/pickups and +1s pop out of enemies is just clumsy/bad game design too. It takes a game that felt very engaging and believable as a real world, in terms of your suspension of disbelief, and turns it into a stupid arcadey gimmick-fest that just looks stupid in actual play. It totally destroys any suspension of disbelief for me, for all kinds of reasons that equate to bad believable/immersive world-creation logic and bad game design. The original Doom had literally nothing "gamey" shown in the main in-game action view, other than some text telling you what you'd picked up (which wasn't even necessary either), and it worked much better as a believable world that drew you in as a result.
Teleporting enemies in, but not from somewhere else on the map, is also junk game design that so many fps games fall victim of. It's a cheap way to not have to actually design the enemies into a level in such a way that the player has autonomy over how they choose to find and confront them as if this were a real place with real monsters that existed before the player even arrived. Imo enemies should for all intents and purposes actually always exist in the world and just teleport from another location in such a way that the player, if fast enough, could teleport to their location first and kill them before they even had a clue what was going on. This is how the old Doom did it, as any enemies that teleported to where you were actually came from somewhere else in the level, so you could either meet them now or meet them later, and if you killed them earlier then you would make the later sections easier as you'd already cleared them of enemies. But new Doom is just generating them out of nothing, giving away it's just pure game code throwing as many enemies and waves as the designer deems necessary at that time instead of creating a living and breathing world where enemies exist already and then letting the player figure out how to deal with that.
Modern game designers often do this thing where they talk a load about why something they've done is great game design, when it's actually the exact opposite (like saying showing +1s pop out of everything and everywhere is good design because it rewards players, when in reality it's a bad solution to a hitherto non-existent problem), but they maybe got half lucky and had say 60% right and ended up with a still decent game, which is enough to satisfy most gamers these days.
This new Doom is a decent game, maybe even very good for what it is, but it's not a patch on classic Doom in all the ways that truly count imo, simply because it does a few of the fundamental things, things that really defined the original Doom and how it felt and played (for each individual player and their own play style/approach), in just the wrong way!
Please go back to games like Doom 1/2, Duke Nukem 3D, GoldenEye 007, Counter Strike, Halo: CE, etc., look a little bit harder at all the things they got right and try to understand better/correctly why this was the case, and see how to actually do genuinely great fps design. . . .
I agree. The original Doom is the best FPS of all time. No one will ever be able to replicate it. The visuals, the music, the weapons, the creepy enemies.. yet still simple run and gun action.
While I do agree with nearly everything you said.
Building an FPS to allow for any playstyle is perfect for all people.
The intent of Doom 2016 is a little different from my eyes especially with this, Move Forward, mentality in that it gives of the message that the character you are playing is suppose to be aggressive and take the initiative trough combat.
As comparison to Master Chief, who is a Super soldier, who is all about being tactical and finding the best solution.
The intent of his Character reflects his gameplay as you can be as aggressive or passive as you want, reflecting Master Chiefs Nature in finding the best way to this combat scenario and the enemies & environment were built around that concept.
Despite limiting certain options, it show indirect Character building trough gameplay and enforces a certain feel and vibe to the player. Which they Decided for Doom Guy that a more aggressive playstyle is more favorable. But you could still stealth around, as they showed, and let the demons fight each other to a limited extend.
Yes, but the original Doom achieved all of this without dictating to me how to play and forcing me into small "no choice but to clear them rooms" that obviously lock me in until I've killed all the "clearly spawning from nothing but lines of code enemies", rather than believably seeming like they were already in the environment normally (the teleportation feels like a cheap cheat here whereas it felt like they were actually warping in from other areas of the level in the original Doom--because they actually were), and so on.
Basically, the new Doom's "game" elements are too obvious in many ways now--it's like despite all the modern flash and spectacle, you can now more easily see behind the curtain (all things being relative)--and to the detriment of the experience imo.
Imo, it's more like going through the motions than genuinely having any autonomous free will and real fun of your own choosing--and that's not great game design to me.
Even the environments, while anyone could boast looked really technically and graphically accomplished, are just terrible to read visually and have you jumping around much of the time simply trying to figure out where the hell you're supposed to be heading in among all these way too visually busy map design.
That kind of stuff is game design 101, and these guys really should know better.
inceptional I agree. The original game was more simple, but it was fun to play. I loved the music and sound effects. The new games seem generic in comparison. These game companies are trying too hard to reinvent the wheel.
Other than the slightly oversteery movement (it's really just a little bit too much inertia on the player), which you get used to and master in a matter of minutes, there is literally nothing but pure world-class game design quality going on in Doom (it still even does a couple of basic things better than most modern fps games). Irrespective of it being older and simpler than most modern fps games, it nails pretty much every aspect of this kind of game perfectly for what it is, such that it holds up basically flawlessly and is still more fun to play that most other fps games in existence once you get into it, even today. I mean, some ignorant kid might bemoan the fact the graphics are all "jaggy", just as an example, but that's because they don't really know that great art doesn't only come in one form. The same goes for things like gameplay and level design: Not every fps has to be extremely complex visually and control/gameplay-wise to qualify as great. Doom is a masterpiece, and the fact it's still totally fun and rewarding to play even now--especially the PSX version, which has amazing and hellishly dramatic atmosphere dripping from it's every pore (largely due to the sublime ambient soundtrack), and more so than even the modern Doom imo--is a testament to this.
This game f'n rocks:
czcams.com/video/K3xqeiRN5mo/video.html
If you can't see that then that is your problem--and nothing more than pure ignorance of what entails truly great and timeless game design and gameplay.
In fact, it's so good that I'm actually making a game in VR very much like it just now, and it holds up brilliantly.
And, just to be explicitly clear here, the original Doom broke more ground and was far more revolutionary for its time than pretty much any other fps game that has come since, be it the graphics, gameplay mechanics and level design, or even the online multi-player, and certainly more than so pretty much every single modern fps game. For that alone, and for much of what made it great still holding up stunningly even today roughly 25 years later, it has earned it's status as one of the greatest fps games of all time, bar none, and is worthy of all praise heaped up it.
Anyone that doesn't comprehend this is either a dumb child or just an ignorant moron.
I never used the chainsaw
I'm Sorry?
@Caustic_ Good for you?
Great information, poorly presented part 1. Way too rushed.
He's clearly not a presenter, and was pretty nervous. He did a good job.
@@JayAreAitch Yes, but the truth is - some expectations are unavoidable for someone who IS presenting. Though my English is not native level, I had a hard time keeping up.
They should just release a Remastered HD version of the original Doom.
nah. nothing they will ever do anymore will please your entitled ass
Entitled? Just because I wish they would remake a video game? I guess there must be millions of entitled people in the world.
you overestimate the amount of nostalgic idiots
don't flatter yourself
You're watching a video about video games. The fans of which are also fans of such things as Atari and Star Wars. Just look how much money The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi made. Trust me, there are a lot of people who are nostalgic.
Or just, you know, play DOOM again. It's not hard; DOSBOX works really well. IMO Brutal DOOM is the superior rendition.
What you didn't get about the original doom is that it wasn't a spawn fest. The monsters were all already there in the map. You took the cheap design route for this game.
i agree.
but the spawn thing was possibly used to circumvent loading times or killing pc performance.
i think though they were going needlessly overboard in protecting the player in trying to create the perfect power fantasy with how the AI worked to not be overbearing, but i think a lot of the charm in the old one was to figure out how to deal with each area or room and getting progressively better at recognizing your situation and therefore creating the power fantasy of actually learning and exploiting the enemies weakness (ie, dominating them).
but all in all, if you had to choose, what would you replay again, doom2 or doom2016?
Cheap on resources, yes. You can't have detailed models, animations and AI functions without a limit on the number of them appearing in game at once. If you prefer to have a game that looks and functions like it's several generations old just so all enemies can exist on the map (even when you're not going to see the majority of them at once), then that's fine, but some of us don't. I would also argue that in some ways the spawning system is advantageous - some areas certain enemies will spawn relative to the player's position, rather than at fixed points (so you can't just camp spawn points), and sometimes small enemies will continue to spawn until larger enemies are killed (so you don't know exactly how many enemies you'll face). Such instances increase variety and replayability over a fixed number of enemies that exist in predetermined locations. In fact if we do get a sequel to this DOOM, I hope they take these concepts further since they didn't go far enough in this game, having too many enemies spawn in predetermined locations, which feels outdated.
i'd rather have more difficult enemies at set positions, that way i can allways improve on my approach instead of winging it everytime and deal with them as they come.
i much prefer the old way to the new one, even at the cost of loading screens if necessary.
to me doom2016 is like another game that is kind of similar and all it really was, was a spawn room with monsters increasingly came in harder and in greater numbers. can't remember the name of the top of my head but i am sure you know what i am refering to.
i think i'd rather play the old doom2 if i had to choose.
I'm guessing you've not played this DOOM on nightmare or ultra-nightmare, since figuring out how to use the games' resources is exactly how you succeed on those difficulties, and there are still enough set spawn points and enemy numbers that you can easily improve your approach when replaying. But beyond that there becomes a point where you know how to deal with everything, and some variance in the spawns keeps the fights fresh, for me anyway.
you're right, i played only on hard difficulty, which wasn't that hard i guess.
i'm gonna give it another go on ultra nightmare, i've become such a casual as they years have passed me by i suppose.
thanks.
Doom made to be played a certain way, yep thats what ruined it.
Old Doom - here's toys, here's monsters, have fun.
New Doom - for ammo kill this way, for health that way, see the 'certain way' part.
Old Doom very much told you to play a certain way, but a different way. Conserve your shots and conserve your health because supplies are limited, isn’t that a certain way to play? Also, there were plenty of ammo and health pickups in 2016 too.
My overall experience with doom was- it got really boring real fast. I play through the whole game only to see to the end. Also there was a deep problem with pacing- they tried to mix push mechanics with hunting down secrets etc and it meant going through the level either really carefully ruining the whole push forward thing or exploring after clearing an area. That was boring and honestly left a bad taste.
Also this mechanic wasn't working with the bosses!
And this isn't new in my opinion- I see this work great for multiplayer spawn free fps rounds in games like cod etc and it works great for 20 minutes then you're done.
I agree, like @dml! said, if you think the game is just about moving from one arena to another, with same combat over and over again, you are playing it on a easy difficulty for yourself. Once the difficulty gets higher, elements of detailed combat comes into play, and it figuratively becomes a chess. I've played the campaign tons of times and %90 of the combats I'm facing are different from one another, just like a chess game you are going to play with different people (or a football game). Even if you gave the same inputs to a combat, the outcomes will be different because of the amazing AI design. Doom was always about mad combats and exploration, this one is also.
I have to disagree- The game mechanics don't change on higher difficulty you're still doing the same thing your strategy doesn't change and I have played it on hard, My entire point was once you get use to it it's a mindless gaming session and mind you that was the idea behind the game. It isn't random enough to keep you hooked.
Me and my brother both have played all Dooms and although I'm not into repetitive stuff my brother still plays the original doom to this day and when things get boring he goes to modding community for something new. He says he'll take doom 1 over doom 2016 just because there is a modding community behind it- the simple fact is it gets boring repetitive.
You can go back to it to blow some steam but honestly we don't lack new content these days when there over 8000 games being released every year. Also no no no, you don't get to blame people when the developers intentionally shot themselves in the foot with putting in mandatory secrets like weapon upgrades.
Original doom and doom 3 both didn't suffer from this- you were given everything until the end.
Exactly my points.
I see these "you didn't even play the game / you didn't play the hardest difficulty!" ""arguments"" on the internet all the time, whenever someone criticizes the nu-DOOM (and boy, there is a lot to criticitze).
But the fact is, the ONLY thing this game's difficulty affects is how fast you die. No new enemies are added on maps, your supply pool does not change, enemies do not respawn after a while ... you just start dying with 1-2 hits. Now, I'm not allergic to challenge, that much of NES games, STALKER and Demon's Souls I've played during my life, but nu-DOOM's difficulty modes are just pathetically lazy and artificial fun-killers.
What made original Doom-games and its many "clones" back in the 90s so engaging and fun was the fact that you were NOT just rushing from a fight to fight. The gameplay revolved on lightweight, survival-horror like design philosophies: You got a pre-set amount of goodies and enemies, and you had to master the enemies' behavior, your weapons' behavior, how you can move in the game, and finally utilize the entire map in a tactical manner at best. DoomGuy wasn't some "Rip&Tear lol!" demon hunter, but a vulnerable badass a la Ash Williams. The "FUN" didn't originate from some pre-canned melee finisher cinematics, but from the satisfying as fuck gunplay alone.
+dml!
Bro- you found the perfect game, hope you play it your end.
Listen- stop making excuses for bad design- the player is the judge and it is entirely subjective if you are going to hunt for secrets or not- but it is a fact they put them their countering the push mechanics. It wasn't put like an option it was mandatory. Maybe you haven't met people who game after achievements. Point is the design doesn't reward push mechanics.
Weapons are downgraded intentially. You don't get to enjoy the power and potential of a weapon unless you unlock the whole upgrades. And again entire subjective blah blah same point.
Doom 3 did not have push mechanics- in fact it paid good homage to original while stepping in to horror genre, you were rewarded for playing safe, and yes doom 3 had secrets but it did it right- you were not penalized for finding the secret gun cause you were going to get it in the next level anyway, the PDA only served to tell the back story and executed perfectly.
+Teemuslayer
Your thoughts perfectly articulate what I felt playing doom 2016, I swear I can't go back to it cause it's just like running on threadmil except the benefits.
When a game starts to give existential crisis- it's best to move on from that game.
If you really think that imp volley is "too massive" then sorry you're just bad at video games.
Doom 2016, meh. It may be well done for its genre but I didn't get into it.
That's fine. You don't have to like everything I like.
Nor the opposite! :D
But it's fine, I'm used to not being aligned with the market taste-wise, ahah.
this entire style of game play is why i dont play doom. Hate that run around and gun, non stop..its horrible.
Just want to summarize the basics Doom 2016 fails to capture from the original Doom:
1. What you didn't get about the original doom is that it wasn't a spawn fest. The monsters were all already there in the map. You took the cheap design route for this game.
2. The whole atmosphere thing is a disgrace to the original doom as well. The monsters in original doom looked actually mature/horrific and not like jello toys.
3. The impact and sound of the weapons (at least some of them) was a lot more satisfying in the original, but in 2016 it feels like you are just slicing through shiny jello stuff.
4. The level design in the original allowed for genuine surprise moments (hard to do with cheap spawn-based-design.)
May be after Doom Eternal you should consider some of these points if you want to make a really good Doom game.
STFU.
what
A load of shit
It ruined the game, period. Doom is about mazes and secrets...not one big area then another big area then another big area....so dumb. Doom 2016 was cool because of the GFX, SFX, and music...literally nothing else.