This Lord of the Rings "Documentary" is Messy
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- čas přidán 10. 08. 2023
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Today, we examine another documentary! This one is pretty messy, folks.
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So cool that you're getting in-frame advertising dollars -- you're becoming a respected channel! Congratulations!
TOTES🥝💝💯...🇺🇳🦄🅱️UT....
..D🅾️ THEY HAV #HAIRY👣👣 #SMELL💤
Do I have to wait months to try a bunch of different ones? Do they have scents for gentlemen?
Ya, because MOST women DO NOT read it, just jump on the bandwagon. And yourself are trying to sell shit. So, proves the point.
IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT GENDER LIKE ITS AN ACCOMPLISHMENT: A MAN WROTE THE DAMN BOOK; LIKE ALL THE OTHERS THAT ARE PART OF POP CULTURE: NOW YOU CAN CITE THE ONE EXCEPTION LIKE AN :::::
Are we sure Tolkien wasn’t just trolling everyone in his interviews by speaking his own invented language and making it JUST close enough to English for the sake of plausible deniability?
And he had an elaborate explanation for how "Interviewë" evolved from earlier languages, complete with vowel shifts and accretion of foreign vocabulary elements.
well now, I hadn't considered this
Boo! Hiss!
Somehow, your videos subtitles explain what he says very well.
What I heard was something/where being destroyed and there was a library there.
Your subtitles say something destroyed on Mana Road with a combined English and law library there.
By the way, I did not know Edith was older than Tolkien. Makes me think of the fact that his most famous romances, Beren-Luthien and Aragorn-Arwern, also has an older female partner.
Beren and Luthien are borderline self-insert-characters. Like it literally says Beren and Luthien on Tolkien and Edith's graves. And Aragorn-Arwen is itself a cosmic call-back of sorts to Beren-Luthien, bringing togheter the two lines of half-elves by recreating the initial elf-human couple.
Yeah, he was pretty explicit about Beren and Luthien being based on/inspired by his own romance
I think it is clear what Tolkien is saying.
Sure, he mumbles it. But it is there.
Listen again and you'll hear it...
He says:
"Never gonna give you up. Never gonna let you down. Never gonna run around and desert you..."
Nice. JRRolled.
When folk say that Tolkien’s characters are uninteresting or underdeveloped, I am quite certain they have not read the books or read bits of them once when they were 11.
"Manor Road, of course, everything is destroyed. I mean, Manor Road, which I lived at - ha, ha - has now been completely destroyed and is an enormous combined English and Law Library built there." Seemed clear enough to me... Ronald, Edith and Priscilla lived at No. 3 Manor Road in Oxford from 1947 to 1950.
I think that's exactly it. Well done!
Yes, it's perfectly clear to me, too.
I think this is the most correct version.
You get the award she can’t give.
You get award!! Congrats!!!! 😂
Tolkien's word are in fact "it is my hope that in the future a fair lady will use some form of pocket cinema device, thingy, to extol the virtues of my work"
Ha! I was introduced to Tolkien by my fourth-grade teacher, who read The Hobbit to us. She was fantastic; and quite real!
It's interesting how that works, isn't it. Though I found Tolkien when I was a teenager, my fourth grade teacher read "The Adventures of Marco Polo" during the first half of the school year, and "The Hound of the Baskervilles" in the second half. I've been a fan of Sherlock Holmes stories ever since, and when I read "The Hobbit" and ultimately "The Lord of the Rings," I was hooked for life. I still read LOTR at least once a year and have done so for more than 50 years. On each reading, I discover something I missed in all my previous readings. Unpeeling all the layers of LOTR is a lifetime pursuit.
My 5th grade class read The Hobbit, and the teacher was a woman.
I still have the paperback copies of all 3 volumes of Lord of the Rings that my 6th Grade English teacher gave me after I finished the Hobbit in a week, when we were only supposed to do one chapter. They are pretty care-worn, now. I think Return of the King is missing a cover.
It was my 6th grade teacher, Mrs. Davis who read us The Hobbit in 1976. She turned me into a lifelong reader. Teachers are the best!
11:42 Tolkien said in one of his letters that Numenoreans don't grow facial hair, because of their part-elf origins, so this is not inaccurate.
The problem with looking back at works like TLOTR and John Carter and The Lensmen and judging them today is they do look very stereotypical and can seem shallow. But the only reason people can think that is because of all the things that followed those works and copied them because those works CREATED the stereotypes and archetypes that all those other works built their characters on.
exactly
I think you got it backwards. The characters are carefully crafted archetypes based on historical and mythological truths; characters are brothers, leaders, young lads, wise scholars, shield-maidens, princesses, queens, fathers and sons, uncles and nieces etc., all these roles that we see in human societies. And they explore the complexities of people in those roles, how they might not like their role (Eowyn), how they might be pressured into a role by an authority figure and the corruptive power of that pressure (Boromir), the bravery and heroism of a hardened soldier contrasted with a heart of gold and silver and glittering crystal (Gimli).
This does not diminish their quality in any way. It is an artistic choice, sometimes less is more, it is the style of the epic story.
I don't see how adding more detail to the personality, thoughts and struggles of Samwise would better the story, there is plenty enough on the page.
Even with things like the elves…. Legolas is a stereotypical D&D elf…. Because D&D elves are based heavily on LOTR…..
Imagine how good these books would be if they had characters and descriptions
She may be a part-time hobbit, but she radiates the beauty of a Noldorian princess.
I was puzzled by the commentator who asserted that the Rohirrim were “generically” Germanic. I had always taken the Riders of Rohan to be explicitly Anglo-Saxon. To me they are Tolkien’s re-imagining of his beloved Anglo-Saxon culture, one which wasn’t extinguished by the Danish and Norman invasions, but which repulsed Cnut, triumphed at Senlac and continued to thrive for centuries more. Thanks Jess for another thoughtful piece, and watching these documentaries so that we don’t have to.
You're right about the later incursions of Dane/Normans; however, you've overlooked the origins of the tribes of Angles and Saxons that started arriving in the fifth century A.D., from parts of northern Germany such as Lower Saxony and the Schleswig-Holstein region. You might start with the story of Horsa and Hengist.
Yes, I agree. I interpreted the Rohirrim (the Eorlingas) as Anglo-Saxons on horseback, who would have given Harold Hardrada and William the Conqueror a much harder time than Harold Godwinson's footbound housecarls were able to.
I figured the Rohirrim were the Americans. After all, Tolkien had Aragorn describe them as "They are proud and willful, but they are true-hearted, generous in both thought and deed; bold but not cruel; wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs[.]" I figured that's how all Englishmen view us Yanks. 🤣
I viewed them more as Norsemen who rode horses instead of longboats across the vast sea of grass.
@@stefanlaskowski6660 There's a lot of substance to that viewpoint. The horse was important to them. Warm blood horses like the Hanoverians and Holsteiners originated in the region. Their importance can still be seen in architectural details like horse-head gables; and, the heraldry of families/governments throughout Lower Saxony and Westphalia utilize the device of the "Saxon Steed."
To be fair, there are times where Tolkien leaves out describing some important stuff. There is still a lot of argument about whether a Balrog has wings or if Elves have pointed ears or not. And Orcs as Tolkien saw them are really only described in a letter, not in the book. Which is why illustrations can very so wildly from each other.
If you want to know what the landscape looks like though, there is PLENTY to go on.
I think that final line says a lot about Tolkien doesn't it!
There's no debate about Balrogs having wings or not. They don't. They never fly, they repeatedly die through falling, and the "wings" in the part of Moria in the story are very obviously an analogy when read in context. The shadow around the Balrog is described like wings.
@@vexaris1890 yeah, the proponents of winged Balrogs are mostly movie-onlies and pleople who just think they look cooler with wings
don't forget the food
@@marceloantunes998 Balrogs were depicted with wings long before the movies. I will agree a close reading of the text show the Balrog's are wingless, but isn't obvious, hence why so many miss it.
My mom was the one who introduced my family to Middle Earth. She had The Hobbit and all the Lord of the Rings books. Made sure my siblings and I read them before we could watch the movies. LOL
And as a lady myself, I've read the Hobbit multiple times and I've taught it to a middle-school class.
One of the coolest things in Tolkien is Legolas and Gimli bonding over the caves at Helm's Deep.
They didn't bond over the Glittering Caves at Helms Deep. Legolas promised he would visit them after the war was over provided Gimli went with Legolas into Fangorn forest.
Legolas never saw the Gilltering caves until after Sauron was defeated.
Gilmli amd Legolas started becoming close friends and bonding while they were in Lorien resting.
In the books the Fellowship stayed quite some time I'm Lorien, several weeks i think it was.
Please don't fade. I was introduced to LOTR as a high school student in the 1960s by a female classmate.
One of the best Tolkien documentaries I have seen is on the multi-DVD boxed set of THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING. Extremely well done. Most of the docs on that set are about the making of the movie, but the first one is all about Tolkien, his life, and his work.
those extra materials are amazing, for the last few years I've been watching them more than the movies themselves and I just wish there was more. The passion for the project, the creativity and the love of Tolkien's work was palpable at every step, I just love seeing that.
If this documentary were released today, I would think they had simply skimmed a couple of wiki pages without ever reading anything.
Tolkien got it easy, he only had to finish his studies. Beren had to get a Silmaril.
I understood that reference!
lol. And Aragorn had to become recognized as king of not one but TWO nations!
@@skylark7921There is the difference in the age difference to consider as well, 3 years as opposed to 2700 years, so of course Aragorn has to work harder. At least Ronald didn't have to marry Edith's ugly sister first.
In response to the Tolkien mutterings I think we should just smile and nod. Loosely translated he says "I don't like to do interviews".
And enjoy the sound of his voice and the twinkle in the eye
9:45 he is clearly auctioning storage units.
On the matter of Tolkien's mumbling, Diana Wynne Jones brought up in her nonfiction collection Reflections that she attended some of his lectures and it was clear that he didn't actually like lecturing all that much.
I have to wonder what his circle of friends (including C.S. Lewis) thought of the way he spoke.
@tarmaque I think it is one of those things that once you get used to it you just don't hear it.
@@rnash999 Almost certainly.
@@tarmaque *Tolkien says something incoherently*
Lewis: I'll translate.
Clean shaven Aragorn just hits so differently.
Sorry you had to watch it, but makes me glad i've never had to.
I love the passage of Gimli describing the cave of Aglarond to Legolas, "Do you cut down groves of blossoming trees in the springtime for firewood?"
Made me a part time dwarf. 😁
5:34 I feel like there aren't enough trees for Mirkwood 😂😂
Love the video Jess, you brighten my day every time you post ❤❤
The shear poetry of Gimli, a dwarf describing the caves, yeah, not nearly enough descriptions in those books. Baruck Khazad, Khazad aimenu!
I like your description of the differences between "archetype" and "stereotype"
To me, a stereotype reduces a complex reality into an (often inaccurate) caricature, whereas an archetype is a direct expression of a simple concept. One diminishes, the other builds-up
Regarding the interviewee talking about racism: I think it's interesting that he doesn't think it's possible to be racist without representing "any particular people". I think anyone honestly engaging with the idea of prejudice would agree that he's talking absolute nonsense. We've all known people who are racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. without even knowing enough about the group they supposedly hate to be able to define them that precisely
The number of transphobic people who apparently don’t even know what pronouns are and yet complain about using preferred pronouns…..
When the Lord of the Rings was published in the fifties there were many literary critics who disdained the work.
Purely because they didn’t understand it
Thank you, Jess of the Shire!
For the Al Gore Rhythm, no Macarena required!
you also put his map 4 minutes in, cute idea!
Let's pretend I did that on purpose!
The interview clip reminded me of the "Rowley Birkin Q.C." sketches in the British comedy series The Fast Show. They all feature Rowley excitedly telling what seems to be a very interesting personal anecdote, but his speech is so garbled that you can understand maybe 20% of what he's saying.
I remember seeing this as a kid. My mom bought it out of the discount dvd bin at Walmart! I distinctly remember being mad at the scene where they give merry the credit for killing the witch king, even at age 10.
My friends who dislike LOTR almost uniformly complain about the surfeit of description, e.g. "I don't need to know what kind of trees were in every freaking scene they walked into." (No doubt remembering and overgeneralizing "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit.")
It's a valid point. Tolkien over-describes to the point where his description becomes meaningless, as shown in the example quoted in the video. Interestingly, it's actually a tactic used by Lovecraft intentionally, but Tolkien really lacked the psychological insight into the effect of his writing on the audience- he naively thought his reader would enjoy and understand his rambling prose.
@@joadams8022 TBF he did say he was writing for himself.
I mean maybe readers were tbf, some weren’t because they just wanted the story then and there
@@NeroSparda99 True. Not everybook is for every reader. Which is okay. This book has sold more copies than just about any book, so clearly more than a few people like it.
Much of the artwork hastily shown in this was done by the Brothers Hildebrandt. They did quite a number of paintings depicting characters and scenes from LOTR and The Hobbit and were the subject of several popular calendars from the 1970’s and I believe the 1980’s. I had a couple of them myself and even framed one or two images. I loved them at the time but now most of them strike me as a bit cartoonish compared to many of the more recent depictions by Alan Lee and Ted Nasmith.
"Manor Road of course, everything is destroyed, i mean, Manor Road [uninteligable], hahahaha [uninteligable] really is destroyed and there's an enormous combined English and law library built there." I believe he's talking about Manor Road, Oxford
What I think Tolkien said:
"Manor Road, of course, everything is destroyed - I mean Manor Road which I lived at [laughs] has now been completely destroyed and there's an enormous [ums and ahs] combined English and Law library built there."
I’m reading LOTR for the first time ever at 30. I never did like the movies that much, but the books are so far a beautiful journey that I did not expect. A lot of the lore is going over my head because I’m more of a story and plot kind of person, and have not been a huge fan of fantasy before this, but it’s only adding to this sense of Middle Earth being a bigger world than just the Fellowship. I don’t know how to adequately describe what this book is making me feel, but I really love it!
Ngl, felt a certain way about your comment implying LOTR only has have rl racial stereotypes if you’re looking for it or want to look for it maybe it’s cuz that’s what a lot of folks say to dismiss/allow racial stereotyping in a lot of pop culture media, making it seem like it’s the person bringing it up creating a problem or maybe it’s when you’re the rl race that’s being stereotyped it’s hard NOT to see that stuff?
I just think we can like fantasy creators like Tolkien or any Author whose not obviously/“intentionally” racist or cud be seen as an “ally” but still acknowledge racial stereotypes they might have in their works whether it’s unintentional or the author is seen as an ally of margenalized groups. It’s something that can empower & attract more readers&fans of that material who come from rl races whose racial stereotypes are seen in that material and love the work regardless but feel like they’re crazy for seeing/thinking it or attacked when they acknowledge it. It’s something that helps out a lot of modern authors who ally with margenalized groups reanalyze their works and what they cud do better moving forward and could do the same for fans inspired by Tolkien to create their own literature, what not to do, despite having good intentions or seeing oneself as a fantasy creator and also an ally of margenalized groups.
It’s just kinda wild how some Tolkien fans have this knee jerk reaction to just blindly dismiss or not even acknowledge/entertain discussing certain criticisms and critique’s about Tolkien as if he’s a religion or something. Can we acknowledge that numerous creators have said their work doesn’t contain racist stereotypes when it clearly did and because people took the author at their word and dismissed criticizing it those portrayals were accepted into pop culture? Can we acknowledge many authors & creators, incl. fantasy, have had racial stereotypes in their work even tho it was unintentional? Then why can’t we analyze Tolkien the same way? It doesn’t make the creator a bad person but not acknowledging it doesn’t help and you can still accept a creator’s work regardless of the stereotypes if you can have a constructive dialogue around it, around what it means, and how to engage it?
I feel like that’s one of the weaknesses of the Tolkien community that could be strengthened a lot with just a simple acknowledgement and wud weaken a lot of the rl racism we see in the community.
Please don’t take this as an offense. I love your channel and have binge watched all your vids and you’re definitely one of the most open and welcoming Tolkien Scholars online and i appreciate having this platform to express my critique not just about you but the community as a whole.
9:32 I think Tolkien said something about all the roads being destroyed and then a law library was built there. I only listened to it about five times.
The Goths, the Vandals, the SS? That escalated quickly.
And where does he get the idea that they spoke Gothic? They quite obviously spoke English (well, Anglo-Saxon) -- as beautifully presented in the films.
Given the quality of your work on your ‘Book Vs Movie’ character study videos on Aragorn, Arwen, Boromir, Faramir, and Frodo, I would like to suggest that you consider doing the same for Rohan’s Royalty. Theoden and Eowyn had strong character arcs which were important parts of the story in both book and movie versions. We get a rather less of Eomer’s inner life, perhaps because Eomer was, for Professor Tolkien, an example of a well-born young man who wholly embraced the duty and responsibilities implied and imposed by his birth.
Speaking of music inspired by Tolkien, (would love to see a dive on that topic!) my favorite from the pre-Jackson Era has to be Johan de Meij's Symphony #1. Absolutely cinematic!
"Manor Road of course everything is destroyed I mean Manor Road in which I lived is now greedily destroyed and there's now an enormous combined English and Law library built there" (more or less).
It's a code ha ha, only we English can understand it. Weird sample though, he said far more interesting things in interviews. See Tolkien in Oxford (1968), a brilliant documentary which is on CZcams. Very Pythonesque!
".... everything is destroyed....an enormous library built there.." I also heard orome
I'll chime in as another girl who read LOTR in the 70s and became a lifelong fan. Both my male and female friends all read it, too. I wouldn't say that everyone loved it equally, but when I knew people who, for example, bounced off the writing style, I can think of both male and female friends who did so. So to my mind, you can't make a sweeping judgement about who the readers were, or who tended to like it more and why. I do notice that the fellow who says his female students haven't read it is younger than I am. And that makes me wonder. I will say, in an anecdotal and sweeping way, that I felt that more of a gender divide in media consumption started to arise within the 80s and the 90s, including affecting young teens and preteens. This isn't to say that, when I was a kid, there weren't girls who gravitated towards very feminine works, and looks, and so on. Or that girls who didn't, didn't get labelled "tom-boys" (although, either I don't remember that being a particularly stinging label; or else I was just oblivious to how negatively others might have meant it). But it also matches up with things I noticed, and have also read articles talking about, regarding trends in gender-essentialism increase in, for example, toys for children. Toy marketing in the 70s was a lot more gender-neutral (boys and girls would be depicted playing equally with LEGOs, for example), and at that time you didn't have big toy stores in which there was such a strict gender segregation of the aisles. Anyway, that's a slight digression, but I guess what I'm wondering is whether that overall shift in marketing towards younger girls vs. younger boys, as the 80s went on into the 90s, affected what books were being recommended to tween girls. And whether there was a drop-off, either in people recommending LOTR to girls, or to girls wanting to be seeing reading it. (Which isn't to say that NO girls would have been reading it in that time period; of course there were. It's only a question of whether there were fewer reading it during that time period, or a general perception of LOTR forming to suggest that it, like D&D, was "for boys".) I think, though, that to answer this question (if it's answerable!), you'd have to do a lot of research, and even interviews, to start to figure out whether this hypothesis is correct. So I'm not putting that much weight into this one guy's own anecdotal sense that none of his female students (circa the late 90s I guess) hadn't read it. (The first question I would have for him would be: do you know this because you ask all of them directly? Or because you mention it and they don't engage with you? Or... for some other reason?)
Well done; love your style and thanks! 22:30 "Yeah, if only Tolkien would have given us a little more detail." I'm still Laughing MAO!!
That guy that you show around 17:44 is in many shows now adays, he’s interviewed as a military historical expert and he, more recently than the documentary your talking about, has transitioned to a woman. She’s been on shows like underground marvels, mystery of the abandoned and some hitler/ holocaust documentaries/ series that I’ve seen.
During Covid, my company asked if anyone wanted to give a teleconference presentation for social engagement. The first few people that presented gave technical presentations. I got a chance and gave a presentation on Tolkien’s life. I hope I did better than this documentary!
I’m very confident that you did !👍👍
Tolkien said, "Manaro ending is destroyed, I mean, Malaro is destroyed, hahah, not really destroyed. There's an enormous combining ancient law library built there."
Not even close.
@@citolero The comment is meant to be ironic because that's what it sounds like he's saying. I know itnot what he actually said, whatever that was.
I could not make out what he said, but I was waiting for him to conclude with the words "I'm afraid I was really, really drunk".
@@profile1674 😂I knew it reminded me of something!
I really love the way you present the topic - so natural, nonchallant, yet getting into details sooo often + you have this (for me hard to resist :D ) ADD vibe, speaking really fast, seemingly wandering off from the script but somehow still on point... :D i dunno, it just feels like home. :)
Bring it on, I'm excited to see more of your production, Jess!
Cheers
ps: "It's so easy not to try" t-shirt shall not be forgotten! :D
this still remains a must-have and if u ever start some merch, please, don't leave this one out! :)
I'm glad you enjoy my presentation style! And trust me, if I ever do make merch, that's the first thing going on it.
In my first reading of the trilogy (5th grade), I loved the fact that it was Merry's blade that first pierced the Nazgul. Yes, Eowyn delivered the death blow; however, there were two people involved in defeating him. Both of which fulfilled the prophecy. Like fate had a direct hand in leading both to the point in time where either could kill the Witch-King if the other failed. That recognizable hand of divine providence is as awesome today as it was in 1978.
Huh, it's kind of like Tolkien was a devote RC who had studied ancient myths and legends. Nahh, that couldn't be the case.
I think that there is no doubt that Merry and Eowyn together killed the Witchking. And we know that they both struck him (it).
I don’t think it’s clear whether the blow that Eowyn struck was actually needed - she only had an ordinary sword whereas Merry’s blade was a “Witch-King-Slayer”.
However I admit I’m being pedantic! It’s like arguing about whether Hillary or Tenzing was the first to climb Everest
I believe Tolkien said he drove his DeLorean to the combination law library. Or some such.
I just love your so, so, very subtle sarcasm. Your thumbnail with the quote "Women Don't Read the Lord of the Rings" got my ire up. When I was an 8-year-old boy, my older sisters introduced me to Tolkien. This was in the '70s, and I have known at least as many women who are fans of LotR as men.
It's kind of why I appreciate Jess's channel. Lord of the Rings is a man's story, written by a man with almost all male characters.
So how do women connect and identify with it? The same reason I enjoy Kill Bill, Alien etc
So here's some background on the LOTR trio painting (It *is* supposed to be Arwen, in case you were wondering but didn't want to go out on a limb). It's the cover to Inquest Gamer, a spinoff of Wizard Magazine. Wizard was a comic book price guide, which eventually began to include things like news, interviews, etc. One of its hallmarks was original covers by popular artists. Around this time, we started to see popular comic books like Spider-Man and X-Men adapted into movies, and because their covers were made by artists, and the nature of print vs internet still meant some gaps in lead time, a popular thing to do was photorealistic art depicting actors, usually wearing costumes they would not wear in the movie. Inquest, was, I believe focused on Magic the Gathering type card games and maybe RPGs? So they tried that technique with Lord of the Rings, using longtime Tolkien artists the Hildebrandt brothers (Who were never great at likenesses, tbh) to depict the stars, probably right after they've been announced. As to why the brothers, depict Liv Tyler's Arwen holding a flaming sword? Well, Inquest tended to have the biggest identity crisis, compared to its sisters Wizard and Toyfare. Oh! yes, Toyfare was actually very significant, as a fumetti comic strip "Twisted Toyfare Theater" effectively went on to become Robot Chicken. (To give you an idea into the minds of the guys who made these magazines)
You remind me of some of the best instructors I had while studying literature in college. You keep me riveted, taking in your insights and expressions.
Part-Time Hobbit was already amazing, then she brought us this video. Just keeps getting better.
I love love love Tolkien's writing, but seriously, I always thought that his interviews and ESPECIALLY his narrations of "epic" scenes were pretty bad... Mumbler and and unnecessarily quick speaker in the most epic moments
9:30 omg, Tolkien was the english Boomhauer from "King of the Hill"
The literary critics both sound like a college student with an impressive vocabulary who hasn’t done his homework but read the summary
If you use enough big words they won’t realize you don’t know what you’re talking about….. except we did
I have seen that documentary and I admire your dedication to this channel for making it all the way through it.
“ ______ living is destroyed-i mean-ha ha-_____ is never really destroyed and there’s enormous-and there’s a law library built there”
My attempt lol
17:38 this guy gives off ancient aliens vibes.
I had an elderly female teacher in high school teach a class on "Knights and Heroes" where she delved in everything from Beowulf and King Arthur, to Superhero comics (which she owned a lot ofーwe even took a field trip to see an X-Men movie in theaters!), to anime/manga (she was less familiar with comtemporary stuff at the time, but she loved Nagai Go, Tezuka Osamu, and other pioneers of the genreーshe even introduced me, an anime officianado, to a lot of important series). Not only was this the best literature class I ever took, but it also solidified my love for fantasy and created a deeper understanding of literature in me than I ever had before. Especially as a woman, I feel a lot of the reason girls don't get into a lot of heroic tales or adventure stories isn't just because they're somehow too "masculine", but because we don't have as many female role models to introduce us to these kinds of things earlier. As a recent adult fan of LotR, thank you for all that you do here on this channel.
Also, my teacher had a sock puppet of the principle she would use to mock him whenever he came over the intercom. She wasn't just into cool things. She was just a cool person. A cranky old lady who exemplified the "age is just a number" saying perfectly. XD
best I could get from 9:32 was:
"(Man or roadicle?) everything is destroyed! I mean, (????) lived haha! That being completely destroyed, and there's an enormous... eh uh eh, combined English and law library built there."
I so enjoy these every week. Thanks!! Also more singing! You have a lovely voice.
Re: women reading Lord of the Rings. I first heard of the books in a book report from a 5th grade girl in 1963. I didn't actually find a copy until eight years later.
My class read The Hobbit in 7th grade. I didn't know there were sequels until more than a year later, when my dad tossed them to me the next summer when I complained I had nothing to read. Thanks, dad!
You explain things so eloquently. I really enjoyed this video. Many of the things you spoke about, namely archetypes and stereotypes, but I could never put that understanding into words. You did so beautifully and I thank you for that.
Minor misquote of Tolkien: he wrote “purposed domination of the author,” not “proposed.”
But your take is very good. Until Shippey (who held the same academic position as JRR), most critics were pure literary critics who simply did not like LOTR as literature, or who had trouble with its genre, or (almost all) who didn’t even thread the book carefully (such as the critic who called Gandalf by the Italic Gandolph). Documentaries that depict Merry as a fat, 60-something accountant are not worth taking seriously anyway.
Love your videos! This is what I heard in that Toilken interview:
" * unknown * everything is destroyed, I mean * unknown * * laughing * is completely destroyed is an enormous combining ancient lore and library built there"
At a bookreading, I asked Ursula LeGuin about her Earthsea books. She referenced TOLKIEN as publishers were then willing to print long stories as multivolume sets. This was in 1980. Also in 1965 (?) I was turned onto LOTR by Anne Marie with cornflower waiste length hair. Then the guys in my shop class cut my Ace edition in half on a bandsaw. I wonder if Dungeons and Dragons would have existed without LOTR. Or most early computer games. (CLI, not GUI or multi user.)
Channel is going so well masha’Allah really enjoying the content thank you for making it!
He said,
Man, the rhotical living is driving man the Romans having really destroyed an enormous combining ace the law library built there.
I could understand calling Aragorn or Gandalf something of an archetype, even if they do have nuances. I could not understand calling Frodo, Sam, Merry, or Pippin anything but complex, three-dimensional characters. I suggest they read "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol". They can't have read very carefully if they think there is not much description in The Lord of the Rings either-or anything besides pages and pages of it that bores
Also, did I mishear or did they say Tolkien was placed in the care of his aunt?
The point about the Rohirrim actually reminds me of a constant annoyance to all Narnia fans as well with certain rather harsh interpretation of the Calormenes, usually with the added assumption that The Chronicles of Narnia is a crude allegory, when technically speaking it is not. I assume the point is that Orcs have scimitars or something, but I don't think that means that Tolkien was saying was that all people who use scimitars are of the same moral worth as orcs because that would be ridiculous.
I tried slowing down the video and I still don't know what he's saying-something about the nature of mankind and technology, maybe? Or possibly a "lore library".
Tolkien reminded me of the old cop in Hot Fuzz!
I think your points are succinct, intelligently considered, and externally low key, but highly impactful in terms of what one might use as "roasting" or even "burning".
Deservedly so. ;)
Another great video! Thanks for the content!
I wanted to interpret what JRRT said. It’s damn hard, but here’s my attempt: “Manor Road of course everything is destroyed…I mean Manor Road in which I lived…ha ha…is now being really destroyed and is an enormous, eh, combined English and law library there.” That’s about a dozen listens.
Someone else said he lived on Manor Road. I didn’t know that, so I am impressed with my ears.
19 year old Aragorn was a bold choice.
The notion that somehow LotR was a literary underdog in 2001 is just ludicrous. It had been hailed by many literary analysts and professors as the greatest work of English fiction since freaking Chaucer, and there were already credited university classes in "Tolkien & Lewis" at many major universities.
As for any "literary" person who doesn't know the difference between archetype and stereotype, they are just idiots. "Move along -- nothing to see here..."
As for seeing orcs (or, more to the point, "uruks") as an ethnic slur of the enemies of free western indo-european civilizations, there is some grounds to that, but it is about a 5000 year old slur. There was an Uruk culture east of the ancient pre-norse before they migrated to Scandinavia, but it has been gone since, oh, the early days of the pharoahs. No one today would be identified with that tribe/culture, certainly not the Goths (who were originally swedish, as in from Gotland) or the Franks (who were keltic-germanic).
Tolkien was mythologizing a much earlier setting, the sort of proto-indo-european times just after the ice age, when you could still walk from France to Britain, and Doggerland was still above water. He literally made fun of people who thought his works could be interpreted as part of the post-roman or modern era (you know, like nazi-lovers trying to claim LotR the way they ignorantly try to claim a lot of stuff.)
The discussion of archetypes and stereotypes is, of course, a very touchy subject. I think you did a good job in pointing out the reductive nature of stereotypes. In very general terms I would say that a stereotype is assigned to a person, while a person is assigned to an archetype. Obviously, a comments section is not the best place to go into more detail, but it might be said that a stereotype is designed to generalize an individual into a larger category, while an archetype more narrowly defines them and reduces such generalities. I also find that, when someone assumes that another is using stereotypes, it tells more about their own biases. Why would anyone think that Tolkien's orcs must represent people of color? The answer, even if unspoken, is often, "Well, they are violent and primitive creatures with no worthwhile culture, so of course Tolkien, the English man, must be referring to them." There is no self-awareness, no acknowledgement of their own preconceptions. They know nothing beyond the stereotype they have of Tolkien's "type," but they consider that enough to draw meaningful conclusions from. It's a very important subject that can only be touched on here, but I absolutely appreciate your encouragement of further thought by your (hopefully growing) viewership.
tell me you are not getting laid and wanting to get attention by females with your pseudo intellectual bullshit. could've used less words for that though. there's cobal slavery going on and you are talking about stereotypes in movies, get over yourself.
When that guy said not a lot of description my jaw dropped.
Something about a law library? Something was enormous
The Wii music montage slaps
My wife and I bonded over our shared love of the Silmarillion.
Great video this week!!!
I am an Englishman and yes, I have no idea what the great man said! :D
I had never heard of the Lord of the Rings. I did watch the Hobbit cartoon during the 70s, it came on national TV, and I enjoyed it. Then the main page of Yahoo had a video add for the movie that auto played, I thought it was a joke. But I went and saw the movie with my sister, and I was hooked. That became an annual ritual, I flew done to Texas for Christmas, and went to see the movies with my sister.
Jess I love your content so much please keep it up :) from a like minded Tolkien fan
That scene is not in the books, the one with arwen and frodo and Gandalf. It was commissioned by a comics collecting magazine in the year before the movie came out. It's supposed to be speculation on the characters looks based just on the cast and literally NOTHING else.
Like they had no idea what the art department or makeup had planned or what the costumes looked like. I think, but don't quote me on it, they got one of the brothers Hildebrandt to paint it
Ooh great info! Thanks for sharing
I enjoyed the video. I'd definitely not seen this one before. Those live action sequences are quite funny! Clearly no expense was spared on the production budget!
Lawks!
It was straight-to-DVD, not straight-to-VHS!
I was in this documentary, and it's really interesting to listen to you engaging with material we recorded more than 20 years ago! I particularly liked that you engaged with my thoughts about race and gender from back then.
I remember you from Time Commanders! In a bizarre bit of synchronicity, I found a few episodes from that on here the other day (Sarmizagetusa and Cynoscepholae).
Mind if I ask - how do you feel about some of the changes they made to the battles and tactical decisions in the films? I was not the biggest fan for example of how they presented retreating to Helm's Deep as a bad idea on Theoden's behalf, the logic in the book as I understand it* feels so much more coherent and in keeping with what I've picked up from reading about (too many) ancient battles, but I'm very much an amateur dabbler
* - hit the army at the river crossing where they'd be disorganised and couldn't bring their weight of numbers to bear, but retreating to the fort when that plan became untenable.
@@neilbiggs1353 Adapting is changing. Book Gandalf is drawing the orcs and Dunlendings into constricted ground, fixing Saruman's force at the Hornburg and striking them with Erkenbrand's mobile force, because (as you observe) he no longer has the option of defending the Fords of Isen. It's a way to bring Saruman's forces to a decisive battle away from Isengard. It's not *that* far off the film's depiction, but in the film it's made a bit more desparate, and that enables it to be a climactic moment.
The book is talked about as a trilogy, which it isn't. It's a six book epic published in three volumes. Helm's Deep isn't a climax in the book, it's a way to develop the plot, to show Gandalf as a better strategist than Saruman, to show the forces of nature defeating the forces of technology (and the forces of conservation incrementally defeating the forces of progress), to show Aragorn developing as a leader, to show Gimli and Legolas growing together as comrades. In the films, which *are* a trilogy, the Hornburg has to carry the weight of becoming the climax of The Two Towers.
So, how do I feel about it? It's a great cinematic battle, it's a great climax, they should have left Arwen in as commander of the elvish contingent, and making Theoden a bit of a dick makes him more interesting. That's all great. It makes the defeat of Saruman less about Saruman, and the film just abandons Saruman, which is sad. I'd rather have had a bit of the Scouring of the Shire, but then it's four films isn't it?
I loved your commentary on this documentary. Definitely subscribed.
This was extremely entertaining and hilarious. Thank you for your work. 😂
Tolkien: "Down the road, of course, everything is destroyed. I mean, how the Romans had lived, haha. The amount they really destroyed was enormous..." (sigh) "Eh, the combined English Law Library built there..."
Some people have the start as "Manor Road" which was an address of his at one point.
@@neilbiggs1353 Yeah, I think that's the right call. She said to try our best interpretation, so that's mine (sans detailed info on his biography).
Robert Inglis' renditions of the book and songs especially, are the single best that will ever be. NO CONTEST. Please do a video about this!
That Tolkien clip is laughably easy to interpret:
"Oh Jesus. Oh Jesus I'm having a stroke. This is a stroke. Maybe a migraine. Could be a migraine. Is any of this making sense? Call the doctor."
You've gone ahead and done it. Now I'm really imagining the Rohirrim riding around with lariats and yelling "yee-haw" :)
Love your content! Can you do a video where you review/give your thoughts on the tolkien movie from 2019?
That's actually coming up quite soon!
Not sure what Tolkien was saying, but I think it was something about living in a van down by the river.
I take it that the documentary missed that the books were being used in High School lit classes in the late 90s and majorly from the release of the first movie onward ... Oh, I met LotR from reading in Time Magazine when I was 14 that it was all the rage on college campuses and wanted to know what the interest was. Introduced my friends to it when I got back to school in the fall. 1967?