Not Fun Games
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- Some video games are directly not fun, in order to convey something about the story or emotion that they're trying to evoke. This is a non-exhaustive list of games that made me reflect on this over the course of my life, that I now present to you. Hopefully you gain something meaningful from this exploration of not fun games.
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----Videos Mentioned----
Genelec Music Channel - Sound Tracker - Gamelan (Indonesia) - • Sound Tracker - Gamela...
Jacob Geller - Art for No One - • Art for No One
Johnny Harris - American-Backed Coups, Mapped - • American-Backed Coups,...
----Chapters----
00:00 Intro
03:03 The Beginner's Guide
13:29 Adversity Games
17:25 This War of Mine
24:25 There's no such thing as an anti-war [game]
29:43 Conclusion
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There are lots of arguments and quibbles in the comments around the use of the word "fun," and I can now see why that is, because fun is as nebulous a concept as "art," and though I tried to be careful around the word art, I wasn't around fun. I also brought up games with ASPECTS of "fun" in them and didn't properly address that until This War of Mine, which was done purposefully. "All these games are a bit fun... let's go to a game that isn't fun at all" as a framing device for TWoM, but if you make a comment mid-video, you won't get around to me admitting that these games are still enjoyable so... yeah. I never leave comments until I finish a video, so I often don't think about this type of person.
I don't think games need to be entertaining to be successful. Their entire goal may not even be entertainment at all, or entertain you through a non-standard path, such as forcing you to overcome adversity. Games can and should be considered for more than just their ability to be entertaining, and this video is meant to be a collection of some games that eschew just bog standard "fun" in pursuit of a message, a metaphor, a compelling narrative, or to make you work for your entertainment, perseverance being a part of the intended experience. Sometimes games are frustrating, or boring, even compelling!; but not always entertaining. And I won't agree with people who think games need to be entertaining as a rule.
Below this comment is a link to an Extra Credit video where they say the same things, but more from a comparative stand point to films or books (and inside of 6 minutes). A different method towards the same persuasive thesis; perhaps it will be more persuasive to those on the fence.
EDIT: Also, this isn't a NEW topic, it's been talked about at length over the course of game history, and CZcams as well. Lots of people have linked to Hbomber's Pathologic video as another example of this, and that's exactly correct. Watch that video as well.
czcams.com/video/HgzpgOJ2ubI/video.html&ab_channel=ExtraHistory
This War Of Mine will forever be ingrained in my heart. I was engaged from start to finish and even as I reached the end and all my deeds good and bad were scrolling by. I wasn't smiling.
Thank you for bring this topic to light once again in an industry oversaturated by petty drama and culture wars.
This War of Mine is extremely easy. I just find the soldiers and bad guys and kill them all one by one. The plot you can find in these locations will make your life very easy that the game loses all challenge. I usually have tons of food left when the war is over. So how do I do it? Scavenge with a kill capable survivor. Equip with an axe, knife, shovel or crowbar. Hide in cover, lure your enemies with sound. Assassinate for an easy kill. Learning how to stack item piles is also crucial for efficient item gathering. Craft the essential work areas such as vegetable garden. So so easy.
@@DarthNVious Yeah I've completed the game multiple times (knife stealth attacks ftw) and does reveal some of it's 'gaminess' through multiple playthroughs (and mods) but the initial direction, intention, and memory of my first playthrough is still there
Brother, the intro was very well written with good buildup to the points you’re trying to make throughout the analysis, but damn it was boring ash lol. 3 mins is too long and it felt like I was reading/hearing an essay.
this video is the question of whether should you insert yourself into something or see it for what they simply are
There are 2 very separate audiences for both, the problem is wanting both sides money.
As a Bosnian it feels Nice that people finaly recognized our struggle from such a art from like video games
Can’t wait for the Americans to remember they had a part in this war with Call Of Duty: Black Ops 7: Kosovo Crisis
MOJA BOSNA PONOSNAAA
Your struggle? Are you kidding me? This war of mine is based on Sarajevo. A city besieged BY BOSNIAN SERBS. You are the damn perpetrstor and try to claim struggle???
@@NerzJansch2 this just in; Bosnians also struggled in the war their own countrymen created, and they don’t all necessarily agree with the actions of those who represent them.
@@NerzJansch2 bozo doesn't know "Bosnian" includes multiple peoples
"Fun" has always and will ever be the wrong thing to refer to when it comes to games-as-art.
They need not be fun. They do, however, need to be compelling. Those are very different things. And being compelling does not need to be related solely to moment to moment gameplay, mechanics or visuals, or even story - concepts, ideas, expression, and whatever it makes you feel counts.
This is why I love S.T.A.L.K.E.R Shadow of Chernobyl despite it being janky
No, they don't NEED to be compelling to have a place, if an all blue canvas can be considered art, so can an uncompelling game, whether or not it compels you to experience it doesn't mean it doesn't have a right to exist
@@irgaming2140something that is bad still exists, but that doesn’t mean that’s how it should be
@@riastradh and who are you to say how things should be?
@@irgaming2140 part of the group being asked to spend money
I played This War of Mine for about an hour many years ago. (roughly mid 2016)
After a few nights of scavenging I ran into an armed civilian and promptly got my scavenger killed.
I never touched the game again.
Which feels to me as the most glowing review I can give.
The game didnits job in communicating it's narrative and tone.
And 19 year old me just couldn't handle it.
as some point i need to write an essay comparing the beginner's guide and getting over it, both of them explore the idea of games that aren't for everyone but in different ways
My best example of this for me is Rainworld, It’s beautiful, intriguing and heaping with atmosphere but also brutally hard for new players and unapologetically random. You also play as a slug cat 10/10
I love rain world, it’s one of my top 5
@@cianhuelle hell yea!
It’s like a sequel to mr gimmick 😤
Rain world still the only game I ever played that I seriously considered quitting not because it was boring, but because of skill issue
@@moosesues8887 haven’t heard of it!
They can be "Engaging" instead of strictly fun.
I feel like the line between engaging and fun are a bit blurry, if something is engaging, it is fun in a way, even if its not a fun derivated from a positive manner, if something is fun, its engaging in a way
@@monikaisdonewiththeinterne2039 It's really interesting that you say this, personally I've always favored the word engaging as a substitute for fun in cases such as these, but I ended up in a fairly heated discussion with my partner the other day over this exact topic and a big source of frustration for them was that I kept using the word engagement to describe games that are compelling but not fun and in their eyes the word engaging implies some level of fun. I wonder if this association is somehow cultural, or maybe it's just down to the individual. Either way, it's certainly interesting.
Unless you identify with the ruling class I can not imagine after watching All Quiet on the Western Front (2022) feeling there's anything but cruelty, misery and waste in war. The main characters are soldiers, but they are not especially proficient, only conscripts who's eagerness fades fast and end up stealing from civilians to survive and ending up dying futile deaths, not all even in a battle.
It's beautifully made, but any happy moment is when you can forget you're in the middle of a war and just adds contrast to make you more miserable later.
Imo, the 2022 film took too many liberties, much to the detriment of the plot and historical accuracy. I prefer the book, it's fantastic. However the intro sequence of the film is great
TIL there's a remake of All Quiet on the Western Front (1930)
Also saving private Ryan, that shit was horrific.
@@awsome1010101 there's also a 1979 adaptation
The original 1930 movie is better imo. The kids weren’t conscripts, they joined the war willingly. Because away from the war front and the destruction the country was fervent on the war and was fantasized about. Then the war happened
Type 3 fun is a type of fun that involves a lot of risk and suffering, and is not fun at all. You might swear to never do it again. Some examples of type 3 fun include:
• Flipping your boat in the middle of a large lake on a windy day
• Making deals with God
• Activating the emergency beacon on your GPS
• Failed polar expeditions
• Apollo 13
• Sailing around the world solo
Spotted a few inclusions of Signalis here, wondered if you’d include it somewhere, but for me - Signalis always been a story of the love, despite the authoritarian society the pair was misfit in
I love Lobotomy Corporation. It makes me feel anxiety and fear like never before! I don’t feel fun but whatever it is I’m feeling, I can tell you it’s the purest form of it!
omg project moon mentioned
PEAK MENTIONED LET'S GO
its fun though
@@reddytoplay9188 to the masochists yes, to the normal person no
@@junpei6180 HEY I KNOW YOU, STUPID ASS PATHOLOGIC PLAYER NOW YOUR EYES BEEN OPEN BY PROJECT 'PEAK" MOON
As a rain world enthusiast, the game is a fantastic work of art, forcing you to think and behave like the animas that infest civilization’s festering carcass to survive, wandering through the ruins of dying gods. It also has a lot to say about religion and the meaning of life. Unfortunately, playing it, at least until you master its mechanics, is the video game equivalent of having a short Scottish man crush your balls with a hydraulic press while singing the Scottish national anthem.
Yeah I need to play that game
this reminds me that i havent touched this game in nearly a year after only being 10 hours into a playthrough, guess this is a sign to get back on it
@@twixchexmix yeah, it’s basically cancer until you get the hang of it. I’d recommend practicing the movement and learning the creature AI- it’s gonna work wonders on your experience.
I think another game that fits this bill is Pathologic, honestly i didn't have even one second of fun playing that game but to say that it was an effective experience is an understatement. It's a miserable fucking game, but when that's what the artist was going for, how can you really criticise it for that? I get why the game doesn't have mainstream success, but it's just got a lot to say and honestly, sometimes you just have to meet art on its terms instead of your own to appreciate it, in fact, that's probably the only way to truly appreciate art.
I started playing it not long ago and I'm still on day one as the bachelor, but I did actually have fun with it. Maybe not by design though. I went to a spot where the ost changed into a total banger of a song so I spent a minute or so just "dancing". Afterwards, I found a church(?) that had impossible architecture and I wanted to try and see if I can take fall damage, so I saved the game and jumped off. Now I can joke that "Pathologic is so depressing, I first died by suicide". Maybe things change in the next days and I've heard the Haruspex is way harder than the Bachelor,but for a start, I think Pathologic does at least let you make a little bit of your own fun
I will never forget the first time I played This War of Mine. I was still in a video game mindset. I saw mechanics, and I liked the characters, but I wasn't fully invested. It was time to go out to a raid. There were two people in the building. One was out on the balcony with a gun. I snuck in the back, and took him out quietly, knowing that I would be shot if he saw me. This alerted his partner, who came running over, and I got the hell out of Dodge with what little I was able to grab quickly. I expected the second man to search for me. "Stop, criminal scum!" That sort of thing. Instead, he ran up to his dying/dead friend, cradled his head in his lap and said, "Oh god, please don't leave me." I can only describe it as being hit with an emotional truck. I didn't play it too much longer before I called it quits and never picked it back up. Did I enjoy playing it? No. But I will remember that moment for a long, long time yet.
Strangely enough, "This War of Mine" for me was a great game I got so invested into. I started doing every single story available, and at some point I learned how to min-max EVERYTHING. Every location, every way I could deal with the military and solo everybody. Every way to kill the market murderers, or what to take when doing the sniper junction. I found myself having fun while solving the game to its bare elements. Sadly, I do realize that wasn't the point when I got the platinum.
This War of Mine's filmic counterpart is obviously Come and See. The people who don't like either frequently say things that could apply to either, as well.
Could you elaborate please? I never encountered anyone who dislikes these things (well, I have barely encountered people who have any opinion on This War of Mine because they don't even know it exists, sadly) and Come and See has somehow escaped my notice so far
@@marcog.verbruggen674 Come and See is on youtube if you wanna se it.
@@marcog.verbruggen674 Come and See is a late-Soviet film, about a teenager who became a partisan in Belarus during WW II. Sort of a cult classic. If you haven't watched it, I would reccomend to at least try to. It is surreal, even arthouse sometimes, but absoultely unapologetic in it's depiction of monsters which are hidden deep inside of human beings. I'd dare to say that it is much, much harder to digest than TWoM (since there IS some gameplay elements to enjoy in a game and at the very least there is some hope that in the end you will make it through meanwhile Come and See's ending is... different) however this is definitely the first thing that comes to my mind if somebody would ask "What would be TWoM's fim counterpart?".
I think what Alexis meant is that these art pieces are "too dark", "overbearing" and "preachy" for some people.
@@VasiliyOgniovCome and See's production was... brutal, unethical, twisted and would make Stanley Kubrick go "ok, tone the abuse down, by god."
the Director never made another film. I recommend looking it up.
The Pathologic subreddit in a nutshell. Great channel name btw
I played 20 hours of Pathologic 2 and hated it. I hated how long it took to become an actual doctor. The game has way too much cryptic foreshadowing super early on. Travel sucks and until you start getting money from your job you just have to starve I guess. Murder and organ harvesting are a godsend but organs take up to much space in your bag. It's been a year now so maybe I'll play it with a bit more patience. I did really like the time management and plot tree though.
@@hjumn Hijacking your comment to write about how much I love Pathologic and maybe recommend it as well for anyone reading to try it in the process. I first played Pathologic 2 during covid, which made the experience especially poignant for the time. I am a generally anxious person that often uses video games as an escape, so playing a game that caused so much anxiety seemed like such a contradictory undertaking when I was already anxious and depressed. Yet it turned out to be one of the most memorable games I've ever played and I couldn't stop thinking about it when I wasn't playing. To this day it's one of my favourite games next to things like Disco Elysium, Outer Wilds and Planescape Torment. It would be redundant to just say "Pathologic is not a fun game, it might just not be for you" under such a video, but Pathologic is a well designed game, that does actually want you to suffer mechanically and has underlying themes that support that. (FYI: It does also have what are essentially difficulty sliders.) Hard survival mechanics, slow travel and inventory/time management are parts of that. Not many games would be brave enough to permanently punish you for dying, for example, but it makes every single conversation about death in the game much more meaningful.
@@Twarex01 I agree! It's a masterpiece, but it's not for everyone.
Idk why he never mentioned league of legends in the "no-fun games" bundle.
Because it isn't the game itself that isn't fun, it's the people that plague it.
Tbh mostly just surprised at the lack of pathologic (so far) in the discussion
who tf knows wtf pathologic means go back to the dictionary nerd
I'd like to say so... but I was one of the few people that was thoroughly engrossed and enjoyed my time with Pathologic. It's so brutal and hopeless, but it's so cartoonishly hopeless that it loses a lot of the "unenjoyment factor" for me. "It's so painful it's fun", basically.
@@MelancholicSeraphyou are talking about patho1 or 2?
@@junpei6180 Pathologic 1. Haven't played 2, yet.
I love not fun games but I hate losing so I'm in this endless cycle of wanting to play not fun games but never playing them
Yea, same thing for me.
both what you gain from finishing said not-fun-games and the suffering you experience throughout playing them are way more intense when played by yourself; You need to be in the right headspace to do so but it is really worth it
@@zephiask1758 idk man i love Lobotomy Corporation by its genuineness of tying its miserable gameplay to its incredible story, but i 100% feel like i lost more than what i gained by the time i finished it.
Not that any FromSoftware game will ever reach the amount of "massive tears of joy by overcoming adversity" as this game did, but i lost much more on it
...
Which i did get back by playing the rest of the series.
Play Project Moon games, wont ask twice
You better believe Imma beat the snot out of any non-fun game that comes my way. Oh, you want to teach me a lesson about the human experience and the biases of my own cultural lens? Not while you still offer more Steam achievements, idiot *spits*
One of the many reasons why I respect “The Beginner’s Guide” as much as I do
I used to be like this. Losing made me angry. I'd think it was the game being dumb, but mostly I was just angry with myself for failing. I got quite far into Demon's Souls and quit on one particularly brutal boss. Years later I played Dark Souls and something clicked. I stopped trying to brute force my way through it and listened to what the game was telling me non verbally. I completed all the following games, went back to Demon's Souls and killed that boss that made me quit in 3 tries. I learned a lot from FromSoftware, but they also ruined most games for me. If it's not difficult but fair, it's boring.
Frostpunk gave me the most anxiety I've ever felt in a game (I haven't played This War of Mine but I'm sure that would take the crown) because I wanted to save *everyone* and I wanted to make every positive moral decision, too. Those decisions were agony to make as I desperately sought enough resources for *all* the people. That final moment at the end of the game where you wait to see if everything was worth it...oh my god. It's one of those games I finished and said, "I am never playing this again," and I haven't, lol. Frostpunk 2 is in the works and I'm really debating whether I want to trade my anxiety for An Experience again.
Great video! This is also a topic I've thought a lot about and it's nice to see someone else's perspective.
Frostpunk is a race against the clock, time and ressource management. if you manage to stay ahead its actually quite simple.
Thank you for this video. It's really interesting topic. It was good to hear about Beginners guide again. Cuz I completed it long time ago and already forgot about it.
But more I liked how you tried to understand what it is like when there is war in your country. I'm from Ukraine and can say for sure that none of the games reflects what you feel when it's war outside, how it affects your life, how you getting used to neverending news about death of people, how it's to see that your neighborhood where you spent your childhood is destriyed and ocupied. But some games like This war of mine reallly tried.
And thank you for the disclaimer in the end. Really appreciate that you want to help.
Love your channel. Looking forward to your next video.
Despite the well worn topic, this was really well made and easy to follow, awesome stuff.
I thought this video was gonna be about rainbow six siege
I am SO surprised not to see Pathologic/Pathologic 2 in this list. It fits in the third category, where you suffer from the story and from the gameplay. And sometimes even from visuals and sound design
And it's the whole point. You're meant to suffer. Sometimes it is inevitable
I'm new to your channel, so if you haven't played these games, I'm super envy to you, as it is a unique experience and I think you're going to like it!
That sounds awful, why would anyone play that
@@StarchieHalo the plot is profound, the world feels unique, and developers say you'll experience "catharsis", which, yeah, happened to me. It's like overcoming your anxiety
@@StarchieHalo Has some of the best writing in gaming ever.
This is a really nice essay, dude. Can’t wait to see more of your work
I never really played Beginner's Guide, but I remember watching some people play it. Never understood it at the time.
One of my friends way back when though, found the story and the message very profound. Shortly after playing it, they stopped making mods for various source games, went radio silent for about like 5 years. Comes back under a different name, different personality, working on a game all about "What happens when a concept, hopes and dreams, objects and ideologies die", choosing to have personified characters of concepts like the Death of self-reflection, Death of faith, death of a martyr, and so on and so forth.
From what I can tell she doesn't really talk about it or advertise it's existence anywhere. The irony that I promote it behind her back on a video discussing the beginner's guide is not lost on me. But much like fictional Davey, I just want someone who used to be a close friend of mine to get some recognition for the most unigue story I have ever heard, the most bizarre characters I have ever seen, and how she tells this story in such a way that I am emotionally attached to a triple jointed mermaid in a gimp suit... without knowing literally anything about them other than that they died alone in a black hole trying to solve a 4th dimensional rubik cube...
And from the mods she used to make, I know she is part of the school of thought of "Make the player feel anything other than joy or happiness". I have literally no idea when of even if anything will come from it, but wait patiently. Going to let the artist cook on this one~
Maybe I'm just not tapped into the scene enough but almost every game related "video essay" channel these days seems like a (mostly well-intentioned) regurgitation of Jacob Geller, NakeyJakey, or Tim Rogers. So glad I stumbled across your work! You're a great writer with a voice of your own, this video was fantastic and brought new ideas to the table of a well trodden topic. Please keep up the great work :)
Super back at it again talking about topics in videogames that we dont think about too much otherwise
I'm so happy to see, this war of mine, Darkest Dungeon, on the thumbnail, but specially. Signalis!!!
The thing is, games are an entertainment medium. A painting on the wall isn't. Games can be art, they can be an experience (as is the case with walking simulators, etc.), BUT, they are also obliged to be entertaining, for that is their primary purpose. A game does not need to be "fun", but it does need to be enjoyable. If a game fails to be enjoyable, it becomes the equivalent a piece of art that nobody wants to look at, because there are better pieces of art that are at the same times engaging.
I like that Roblox refers to it as experiences instead of games, even though it's not perfect
The word game in itself implies fun, but a lot of these are sometimes not a game or are more than that
Roblox places or experiences
@@reimuhakurei2123 oh, there's a difference?
I guess both are good alternatives. I don't play Roblox anymore and left before experiences were a thing, I just hear about it
Great in-depth explanation of why games like Scorn and Pathologic should appear more often. They have bleak worlds and harsh themes, sending important messages to their players; but who's going to listen? Scorn was discussed as a DOOM-like before it got released, and people were disappointed. They didn't find the game "fun", and at the same time, the protagonist they played as was tormented in a disturbing and brutal world. What fun would be had there? Ultimately, people should understand that video games are a medium to carry messages as well as product to be consumed and art to be admired, in different proportions based on each specific title, and each message requires an audience to either accept it or not, and hopefully generate meaningful discussions in any case. You cannot send a dark, but important message using fun and light "instruments", the same way you wouldn't seriously argue about economics, politics, etc. with a drunken person while you yourself are sober. The other side needs to be receptive to the message you're communicating, and sometimes, they need the push towards the state of mind in which they'll become receptive.
I know Library of Ruina "approaching the end" ambiance when i hear one.
That being said Lobotomy corp is good example of an adversity game, the gameplay causes the opposite of flow state with large stretches of nothing happening followed by brutal difficulty spikes, honestly playing through it feels like a job. But ballcrushing difficulty does work well for games message
“if it’s not fun.. why bother?” -father reggie
Common Reggie W. It's funny how gamers are so insecure about whether their precious interactive experiences are art or not, and the lengths they'll go to to justify that they are. That's how you end up with "pixel art game that's a metaphor for depression #28473". It's like struggling writers writing books about struggling writers. Despite these people pouring their entire essence in those games, once you've played one, you've played them all. The world needs more bing-bing wahoo games.
@vlc-cosplayer simple minded ass take
@@vlc-cosplayer 100% true !!
There is no game that is made to be unfun. Those games end up being unfun are just bad games.
People just want to feel special and say how gritty and dark "this war of mine is" and the call it anti fun and a work of art.
Its a game and its fun in its own way. Being caught is the middle of a war is engaging and interesting. Its fun.
If people only realised its a video game and you are allowed to say you have fun playing dark games or doing dark things in said video games.
As a person who “quit” art ?
The worst thing was watching how people latch onto whatever they want. It seems to darken my life til this day. People often tell me they “don’t know what to latch onto “ when I talk & it’s resulting in less talk, & then TOO MUCH TALK. whatever
This isn't the first time I've heard these points made, but your recital left me with chills. Sub well-earned, friend.
Great job on this video. Within just a couple minutes, I was thinking of Jacob Geller's video and was glad to hear you reference it and it's adjacent topics. Very cool.
I swear, I don't know how your channel isn't gigaenourmous. Every video is a pure essay on art and videogames. I love your work, please keep on doing your best, Superdude.
I’ve been feeling this exact way. I found myself analyzing what games are for and what they represent when I was playing death stranding. It’s the same quests as every game but with the superfluous aspects taken out. It makes you experience the rawness of “content”
It's nice seeing This War of Mine brought up. It's so close to a game you want to triumph over and it repeatedly reminds you that Doom Guy isn't in your shelter. Even if you have the game's equivalent, Roman, he's just as dangerous to the people in the way of your survival as he is to the very people you're trying to keep alive. Every inch you think the game is giving you is just hiding petal mines.
To the argument about video games being art. There's the quote: art should not make you happy or be fun, art should make you feel things. Good video games, will make you feel something, just as good art will.
The term I've always liked is "interactive art"
It does end up including things that you may not be thinking of but it's the best I've found
Your videos are so freaking awesome! Keep that stuff up
Hope you take care of your mental health after this video
Good stuff as always!
This war of mine: “I wouldn’t hurt someone else for my own gain!”
Me: *Laughs in supermarket soldier event*
*Laughs in backstab noises.*
*Laughs in Assault Rifle and Morale boost.*
Also
*LAUGHS IN MILITARY BASE*
*LAUGHS IN TOTAL SOLDIER DEATH*
*LAUGHS IN MOUNTAINS OF FOOD MEDS AND AMMO*
*LAUGHS IN MORALE BOOST*
This War Of Mine is capable of really awesome moments, so long as you target those who deserve it.
Wow this is one of the greatest videos on CZcams
>"Not fun games"
>Darkest Dungeon
Bro that's one of the most fun games ever
To be good art no games don't need to be fun, but to be a good game it does need to be fun at least for me
I think perhaps there is a category error here. I think focusing on "entertaining" rather than "enjoyable" is something of a mistake. Things like the out wilds induce a lot of different emotions in a lot of different ways. Lisa manages to both be mechanically entertaining while also having a narrative which drives you to be empathetic to some rather intense pain. Both those things are enjoyable experiences, things that you appreciate the time spent with them. I think videos games, by their nature as games, are predisposed to invoke fun, it's hard to have an engaging interactive medium that doesn't hit a brain's fun centers, but that doesn't mean video games have to be all about the fun.
I get his point and somewhat agree with it, but find your point on distinguishing enjoyable better. Dark Souls is hard and for as much adversity you overcome, I still find it "fun" or in this case, enjoyable, same with Lies of P, Sekiro or other punishing games. I find that this video sort of pushes that dichotomy between "fun" and art since I don't find that some of those examples necessarily lacked "fun". Whether the intention of the developer is to be fun is a different matter since we do also have story games without orthodox gameplay framed as interactive media and neither do developers need to make a game "fun" to get their point across if they have one, but reception to enjoying a game as a medium hinges on how it's presented to the consumer and how effectively it's done.
another banger! great vid!
Wait. I was subscribed? Great essay, much appreciated.
Can be both, but fun is my driving factor. I'm not going to seek out a game that depresses me for an experience. It usually helps if a hard moment or harsh artistic expression is embedded in a wider game experience.
I was playing Project Zomboid while listening to this video. I was raiding a house, dispatching its undead residents and made it to the attic where I found a barricaded door. I broke it down because that generally means there is good loot behind it, but all I found was an empty crib in a decrepit room, and I had to sit and pause the game. I think that squarely places this game on the list of “games that are fun until you really think about the human impact”
I played "This War of Mine" idk... 10 years ago or something. I had to stop after an hour, couldn't bear it mentally. 29:01 The scene with the plush doggie. That kills me
I lost the game pretty quick after I robbed the old couple in desperation and everyone got depressed and one dude left, one killed themselves, and the last sat on the ground with no one to snap them out of it and starved. It was such a succinct ending to my game that I haven’t attempted finishing it yet
Lmao its a video game. If it affected you that much you should seriously consider taking a break from the internet.
As for the other dude in here.. L.
I was full on supplies and did all I could to survive. Its literally us or them, you got a kid to take care of you set the world on fire if you must to feed them.
@@almightybogza bro I literally just said it was a good and fitting ending for the kinda story my game was turning out to be. When did I say I couldn’t handle it 💀
Superdude: Games doesn't need to be fun
Suicide squad devs: And I took that personally
the beginners guide makes ma cry every time i watch someone play it. the way the game is formatted is amazing. Also for games you call adversity games, I have fun all the way through. i don't play for the thought of the adrenaline rush, just the fact of knowing more/getting better is the fun, whether you win or lose.
was very surprised to hear a Gamelan in the background! A very pleasant surprise, though.
I feel like all the things you said that makes people keep playing games besides for the point of "fun" can still be labeled as "fun". For a game like Signalis for example, the game is very depressing and has a crushing oppressive atmosphere but I have "fun" by interacting with this world and finding out more about the story as I progress.
I was going to sub after watching this video, but I realized I already was.
Damn good video and message, sir!
Looking nervously at my 1100+ hours on Escape From Tarkov...
sad
@@UltimateArts13 mfw I hate people having fun
This game promotes russian narratives. The money from its purchase will go to the russian treasury, which spends money on promoting terrorism around the world and on their wars of conquest. The developers of this game actively support the russian terrorists who brought the war to Donbass. Please do not play Tarkov and dissuade everyone else, if possible.
Looking at my own new ownership of Celeste and project zomboid, and my want to play a soulsborne game and the fact I play as medic and pyro in tf2
I’m just a masochist aren’t I?
This is the main reason I love GTFO, you get levels that when you first try them feel impossible, but the more you try them the more possible the level feels, until you manage to beat it and it feels great. Also if you haven’t done R8B4 PE yet, I pray for your sanity 🙏
One of my favorite adversary games ever has gotta be Lobotomy Corperation. It was in the back of my mind the whole time I watched this video. If you haven’t played it, I highly recommend it but I can’t tell you that much about it if you want to go in blind, other than it’s a colony simulator/horror game that REALLY emphasizes the “not caring about your workers” aspect of colony simulators. It also has a great story and is INSANELY challenging. I wouldn’t say it’s a not fun game, but fun isn’t the main emotion project moon wanted you to feel, it can even feel boring at times. But the pay off for sitting for the boring sections at times is amazing. Once again, highly recommend!
i'm happy that someone finally talked about this war of mine.
I was so deeply thrilled and confused by the beginners guide, absolutely a horror game! The questions you asked here are really important and something I thought about a lot, thank you!
I don't think there's really any issue with using the current definition of games, because the main aspect of games is that we can directly interact with them to "finish" the product, like the last piece of a puzzle, even if it's just by walking around and interacting with a few objects. Games treated as art instead of fun escapism could fall under the "amusement" in the definition, where the artistry is what amuses us, but a better word would probably be entertainment that some definitions use as it is more general
It's funny you posted this video not long after I basically just had a discussion on this very same topic, and I didn't subscribe long ago either. Love your content
They have to be engaging, but that doesn’t have to necessarily be through fun. It can be through fear, hate, disgust, joy, exhilaration.
Surprised Pathologic didnt make it into this video
um dos meus canais favoritos falando de outro que adoro, jacob, que grande dia de se viver, todo criador de arte e conteúdo de verdade eventualmente se cruzam!!!!
I just want to recommend Celeste to everyone, it is such a touching video game, it is so beautiful and i felt like crying just at the sight of Madeline reaching the top of the mountain and the short sample of the wondreful perfectly fitting soundtrack which conveys so much emotion when I hear it, it makes me feel as if im comforting a long lost loved one. I HIGHLY recommend trying out this game to anyone who likes a bit of a challange, but may be struggling in life, and is feeling a bit down, perhaps lonely. The game is not a cure but it is art, and you can enjoy it and it makes you feel powerful, loved and understood.
Darkest Dungeon ligit give me a mental breakdown every session but I keep coming back
me + my migraine in my dark room say thank you for not having the flashing
I appreciate thoughtfulness like that
you are truly a Superdude.
EDIT: subbed liked belled bc content so good too thanks
Yes Gears of War made me cry, even as a adult. I have a strong bond with my brother so Storys about brotherhood always resonated with me
Dark and Darker literally punishes you for every button you push and every decision you make
This War of Mine is one of the best games ever. I even played the board game. Soooo good.
Appreciate it for using a Gamelan track for the bgm
The big thing about the souls games to me is the difficulty and adversity is part of the narrative. They’re not hard for hardness sake, the adversity and overcoming it are part of the players reward and the games story. You’re playing in an unforgiving world both gameplay wise and lore wise. The undead have a similar journey to the player. It’s no coincidence that almost all the loot in these games is found on scattered dead bodies. It’s a cycle of perseverance. Each one gets a bit further, aiding the players as they do
Sometimes the algorithm works. Subbed!
Anyone saying there's no such thing as an anti-war movie clearly hasn't had the great (dis)pleasure of watching The Pianist.
Great video!
27:30 I can understand that in most films we categorize as anti war that there’s typically a semblance of “heroism” used to establish a connection or a diamond in the rough the viewer is able to hold onto. The film I raise to counter this is 1985s “come and see”. I typically have no trouble getting through violent/disturbing media, but this film broke me. There is no hero, there is no light. The movie ends with our main character, a now empty shell unrecognizable from the patriotic boy wanting to help his country we see at the beginning, marching off with what remains of his fellow partisans into the next inevitable danger.
Love the beginner's guide.
What an amazing video...
maybe your interepertation of art, is art in of itself?
I always think of Soma when this topic comes up. One of the most engaging games I've ever played, but my entire time with it I was somewhere between very uncomfortable in the more mundane (if any of it can be called that) elements of the story and setting, and at the other end of the scale feeling physically ill and shaken to the point of needing a break of a day or more before returning to the game, which is not something I usually do. The brilliance of that game, and of games as an art form in general, lies in the fact that none of the concepts it presented to me were things I hadn't previously considered. I'm a pretty melancholy person, I tend to dwell on subjects such as those seen in Soma, and while it can be a bummer it never gave me that visceral, involuntary reaction that the game did, and that right there is the power that games have as a vehicle for serious messaging and themes: when presented well in an interactive way such as in a well-made game, it becomes much more difficult or even flatly impossible to compartmentalize or bury the emotional response that the game is trying to evoke than it would be in any other medium because you are actively taking part in the world and narrative being presented. I loved that game, but it will be a long time before I even begin to consider whether I am strong and well enough to play through it again. It most certainly was not fun or a good time, and though I felt compelled to see it through it felt more like I was a captive than an audience in the best-worst way possible.
Now don't even get me started on Planescape: Torment or Disco Elysium. They aren't as inherently horrifying the way Soma is but they broke me and somehow rebuilt me in such profound ways that I still haven't even really managed to unpack it all, myself, yet.
Sometimes its important that not everyone can finish something, talking mostly about gd and rhythm games. Having some proof that youre better than others or that you did something truly difficult cant really be done otherwise.
Hey. thanks for this. It was a fun video! Okay, not really, but it achieved its aims, I think, and I appreciated it.
Free time can be spent solving sudoku or talking a walk through the park, and they are both valuable
I'd say almost every game, or at least the content within "the game" as some would argue, is art of some form, especially considering some of the things people call art that I call a mess.
The most important thing about art interpretation, is to understand that is only yours, and yours alone view of the art.
Update: this video has tempted me into trying This War Of Mine so I went and got it and holy smokes this game is great
"That Dragon, Cancer" was mentioned by Totalbiscuit back in the day. Not touching that game even with a gun to my head. I cried when you lost your girlfriend in "The Darkness", yeah.
holy shit this is a great video
im not crying, its just those damn onions cutting ninjas
This is very interesting, when contrasting with Death of the Author (which many people employ wrongly in the first place).
The audacity of one to say "It means this, and I can not be wrong because it is my opinion!" (which it is not, it is rather a statement of fact, that may in fact be wrong) against "There is not meaning, I'm just creating".
that opening gamelan though 😳
I remember playing this war of mine when I was just 13 or so. It was on ,back then, Origin access next to battlefield which I played a lot. I was curious and played this war of mine... shooters haven't been so much fun since.
Awesome video. Keep it
The Beginner's Guide is awesome.
Glad someone is finally talking about it. I remember back when I played it, I came up with a whole theory about the story. Basically that I thought Coda was transgender and female turned male specifically and the games were some kind of coping mechanism and Davey just never figured that out nor did he even know Coda was trans. I forget most of the details of the theory but that was the gist of it. It's probably the only game that I ever thought about so much that I actually started theorizing about it.
100% agree with your assessment of This War of Mine. It's incredibly well made while also being painful to play, but conveys an important understanding in a way that no other war game does.
As for the quote "There's no such thing as an antiwar film", the remake of All Quiet on the Western Front disproves that handily. Nothing about it glorifies war in any way, which I think makes it one of the most accurate and important war movies. (One could argue the same about Schindler's List, but that's really not about war so much as the Holocaust happening behind the front lines.)
In this war of mine I had backstabbed a man one shot him in search of resources, just to see a woman run downstairs and cry on his corpse, I was still hidden in the same room and I needed to leave, I thought she was going to be an obstacle so I poped out and try to instantly one shot her aswell, she didn't die in one hit, she also did not fight back, I just watched my chracter stab a grieving woman 5 times. She returned home depressed, and I closed the game never opened it again. Left a good review tho.
I think that if there is a game mechanic that isn’t made to be fun but to communicate something like weakness to the player that’s fine. The problem comes when a mechanic is made to be fun and rewarding and just isn’t