Secret Teachings of Plato & Theology of Arithmetic - Pythagorean Origins of Sacred Geometry
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- čas přidán 3. 02. 2022
- Did Plato have secret, unwritten doctrines (ἄγραφα δόγματα) deeply influenced by the mathematical esotericism of Pythagoras? From his works, comments by Aristotle, the philosophical project of the Old Academy and later Neo-Pythagorean teachings of Nicomachus of Gerasa and Iamblichus, there is substantial, though controversial evidence, that Plato's deepest teachings are not only to be found in the Dialogues as we know them. What might have these "unwritten doctrines" taught? It may be that a small 4th century ce digest of Arithmology, the intersection of ancient Metaphysics and Mathematics, attributed to Iamblichus might give us insight into these esoteric Platonic teachings and their survival into contemporary philosophy and physics. Join me as we explore this fascinating topic, at the heart of the origins of western philosophy!
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#Plato #Pythagoras #SacredGeometry
Cooper - Plato - Complete Works - 978-0872203495
Waterfield - The Theology of Arithmetic - 978-0933999725
Dillon - The Heirs of Plato: A Study of the Old Academy (347-274 BC) - 978-0199279463
Kramer - Plato and the Foundations of Metaphysics: A Work on the Theory of the Principles and Unwritten Doctrines of Plato with a Collection of the Fundamental Documents - 978-0791404348
Nikulin - The Other Plato: The Tübingen Interpretation of Plato's Inner-Academic Teachings - 978-1438444109
Make Sure to Subscribe & Consider supporting Esoterica by
becoming a monthly Patron - www.patreon.com/esotericachannel
or a one time donation - www.paypal.me/esotericachannel
Your support is profoundly appreciated!
Hello just want to thank you very much for your videos. They're always well done and high quality and very interesting. My question may sound a little weird but would like to hear your thoughts. Does any of this magic work? From all your videos. And if so have you ever practiced any of this magic yourself and how did it work for you? As always enjoy your videos thank you.
@@incrediblemr.e8765 check out the faq on my website for my answer!
Incredible Mr. E, if any of them work we wouldn't be allowed to tell! Magic is a "fuck around and find out" kinda proposition ;)
Well played, good Doctor. Well played. The tightropes get truly thin in the rather depleted sources we are able to glean. Oh, to have a year or ten in the catacombs, hermetically sealed as well as sealed away from the truly, unadulterated populace of the knowledge seeking.
Mahe Ohna ✌️ Favour to you and ALL
First time viewer, new subscriber! You had me laughing with you and totally on the same page. Thank you very much!
When I was in medical school I had a Greek classmate who was very Holistically orientated -as was I. He told me that the Ancient Greek method is solving problems could be reduced to geometry and thoughtful questions. He used a triangle to illustrate this to me. He also told me that all geometrical shapes and solids had their own special philosophical interfaces with human consciousness and problem solving. I would be extremely grateful for your kindly teaching us about this
Did he mean geometry per se, or a geometric style method of demonstrative reasoning?
Seconded
This episode was mathmagical!
I love that word 😂❤️
DAFFY DUCK (cartoon) !! I LOVED His "mathemajic" episode !!!! ❤️ 😍 💖 ❣️
Lol . Now say it with a lisp!
Mathgical*
@@danfield6030 Who?! -Donald Duck
It is refreshing to see an academic video on CZcams about Plato's possible esotericism. I actually wrote my Master Thesis on the birth of the World Soul in Timaeus and during the process I came across a couple of books about this very topic that you might find interesting enough to check them out. They are Kennedy, J. B.: The Musical Structure of Plato's Dialogues and Reale, Giovanni: Toward a New Interpretation of Plato.
Thanks for sharing! I've got The Musical Structure of Plato's Dialogues and thought it was so fascinating. I've never heard of that other book, though, so I'm super thankful you shared it. There's nothing better than getting a good book recommendation!
Yes I'm obsessed - this is what I've been hoping this channel would get to. We are using quaballistic math to understand software architectural integrity, this what we call in modern day Applied Category Theory!!!!!!
Who are these "we"? Could you share details about your take on "applied category theory"?
@@youliantroyanov2941 This is my favorite free course on it, it takes the practice of replacing arithmetic mathematics with arrows, allowing us to constitute formal monads, etc. It's a relatively new field of applied mathematics, but it's ancient knowledge. ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-s097-applied-category-theory-january-iap-2019/
I literally have The Theology of Arithmetic book in my pile of ACT books, it's not even a derivative knowledge, it's exactly the same discipline of mathematical thought.
Riveting! It rings so true that these esoteric teachings existed. I love the emphasis on experience in addition to book learning - being a musician, I feel music gives us to a chance to wheel through the cosmos in straight up arithmetic and geometry. Very interesting point about many present day spiritual paths not tapping into numbers much beyond a bit of numerology here and there. Also loved the notion of raising group energy and experiencing a new reality as a result. You’re making this space for us right here!
Yep as a musician, especially a harpist these Pythagorean elements must just be obvious you you ! I'm glad you found the episode interesting!
As a musician also I have to agree. Music is geometry in sound
@@TheEsotericaChannel 🧿♥
@@timflatus "geometry in sound" - love that!
I just had an “experience” through music and “paranormal” entities… i need to talk to someone who understands this stuff. Something took over my life and altered it completely.
I think you provide a very serious service to mankind, and are absolutely the only channel worth financially backing. Im in no way being a sycophant, I honestly believe this. There is a profound gaping hole in the world where finding meaning, or even a reason to continue to even exist is falling away. That is a horrible state of affairs in every nation. Here are a slew of answers ( to that condition) in a massive spectrum.
And here I thought that I just make wierd videos for the internet
No way doc
Your an asset to the world
I would have preferred commas instead of parentheses but I agree with your comment wholeheartedly. It's just my preference, yes it may look odd, but this is how I talk 😅
@@TheEsotericaChannel If you haven't noticed, weird videos on the internet are pretty special these days. Yours are actually pretty good - and that's not necessary for weird internet videos to be important!
Man I been diving into all things esoteric and ancient for the past year and I am just obsessed. And I’m so happy to find your channel. I wish I could be an intern for someone like you just to be around the atmosphere. Love your stuff, keep it up!
As a mathematician at heart I really appreciated the call out to Russell and Whiteheads Principia Mathematica and Kurt Gödels takedown. It's a fun connection that the Pythagorean idea that everything is a natural number or a ratio of them: When somebody found a proof that square root of two can't be one and alegedly the Pythagoreans hunting this mathematician / heretic down and drowning them. Fortunately Russell's followers did not go to such lengths.
You're tapping into a potent current, I think. This particular issue seems to be at the heart of why computer scientists have become so interested in occult philosophy over the years. These teachings really seem to center around what numbers actually ARE and what they can potentially do when that identity is understood. A computer scientist's job consists almost entirely of understanding and expanding the potential of what numbers can do in the real world.
This episode blew me. I have never had the pleasure of STUDYING philosophy and this information was new to me and so informative and incredible.
Yes please DO explore this topic and it's central importance to Western Magic.
Fascinating video, Dr. Sledge! It's really interesting learning how the Greeks thought about mathematics, and especially how "1" and "2" are given such significant meanings. Thank you for this video, and I especially look forward to future discussions of Plato's unwritten doctrines!
@Roco ol Never said the Greeks invented mathematics, just that it's fascinating to learn about how they thought about it. IIRC, a lot of Pythagorus's knowledge was attributed to the Egyptians, and a clay tablet from Babylon was found from long before the Greeks began to develop with several so-called "Pythagorean Triples," that is, triplets of integers satisfying a^2 + b^2 = c^2.
That said, I think the age of the sphinx you cited and the average lifespans are a bit exaggerated. The pyramids and sphinx of Egypt are certainly among the most ancient structures still surviving, but I don't think they're quite 8000 years old. As for the lifespans, given how human bodies deteriorate over time I doubt that the average lifespan anywhere was ever 120 years old.
@Roco ol just a link for all concerned, re the tablet Nathaniel mentions: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plimpton_322
You all have unique perspectives, I value that.
You lot talking about a few thousand years when Earths humanity is billions of years old lol .
Years ago I came across a book called "The Theoretic Arithmetic of the Pythagoreans" by Thomas Taylor. It introduced me to the concept of Arithmology and since then I've been interested in the topic. This video is exciting, and I appreciate the resources in the description for further research, as I've come to understand that Taylor's book is not exactly the best book for understanding Arithmology.
Thank you again, Dr Sledge, for making these videos. I appreciate your work and dedication to education!
Amazing presentation.
Now I want to watch Darren Aronofsky’s Pi and I don’t know why!
That film gives me a migraine every time I try to watch it!
Dr. Sledge, not only are you a great educator and popularizer of esoteric philosophy, you may be one of the most successful book sellers of all time. I'm quite happy with how my library has expanded due to your show notes.
One of my FAVORITE things about his content is that he recommends some awesome books at the end of his videos. So amazing. I always take screenshots, or write them down so I can go back and order them.
Interesting and illuminating indeed! You could spend a chunk of time lecturing on the Quadrivium, and hear no complaints from this guy:) Well done.
esoterica days are the best days!!!!!
I haven’t read some of the Platonic dialogues you mention in 19 years since I studied them in college. Feeling inspired to go back to them now watching this
Amazing! I was just reading about the esoteric teaching of Plato earlier and boom here it is. Literally, I jumped on here a few minutes afterward and you posted it only a few hours before. I went back to read some more and returned here to watch again and this is very interesting. I am reading The Western Cambridge Handbook to Western Mysticism and Esotericism and watching your videos and have learned so much! I appreciate your hard work brother. Thank you!
Great video! Your one of the few creator’s on this platform who consistently posts amazing and interesting content. Please keep up the good work, your videos never cease to indulge me.
Oooh baby, I'm excited about this one! Thanks again for your wonderful work, dear Dr Sledge!
seems like any sort of advancement becomes a kind of religion eventually, even now we have people thinking we live in a computer simulation because of computers, you had the nature cycles when we did the farming and whatnot, seems like when you think a certain way, that way of thinking influences your other thoughts on other things through the perceptions, good stuff as always
Absolutely one of the greatest CZcams channels in the history of the platform. I feel blown away after each and every video. And Goonies never say die! Praise Bob, yall!
You rock! I absolutely love this topic. I have been fixated on understanding the esoteric aspects of Plato for 35 years. When I finish work today, I'll become a Patron. I'm happy to support this kind of content. Can't wait to rewatch this lecture after work tonight. ❤️ I'm particularly interested if the subject will offer any insight into the Eleusinian Mysteries and any connections or parallels with the Theurgy of the Chaldean Oracles. We have lost so much through the ages, and this missing information feels like a hole inside me.
Do you talk about or share the research you made on that topic?
Absolutely stellar video! Very much appreciated as a mathematician, and your dig at string "theory" was unexpected but welcome.
Definitely happy to support this channel!
I loved the "hold my beer!" bit. The jokes help keep the pacing and break the monotony. Excellent work as always
Yes!!!!!! Thank you for starting this topic and I can’t wait to hear more!!! The following of frameworks based on this beginning following through to Bennett’s elementary systematics - are based on the experience of and use for the ability for self observation and learning how to learn. I’m so excited to hear what you have to say on this !!!
IDK if you plan on doing a video on this, but it should be noted that the Monad - Dyad of the unwritten doctrines of Plato had an important (religious) legacy. Neopythagoreans and Middle Platonists interpreted it as ontological /cosmological /theistic dualism where the Monad is God, who is mind /reason, and is good, and Dyad is matter, which is ensouled (so a conscious being), and evil, and the cosmos is a product of interaction of those two forces /beings. Both groups thought that this is a doctrine which went back to Plato and Pythagoras. Tho if that is true it was obviously an esoteric doctrine back then, bar a tiny mention in the dialogue Laws (at 896e) and the views of Xenocrates, the second scholarch of the Academy. Plutarch, a prominent Middle Platonist (and a priest at the Delphi temple), explicitly compared this dualism to Zoroastrian dualism. Then came Neoplatonists and rejected that dualism in favor of monism.
Yep, I will and I mention that direction in the episode. Just beyond the scope of this episode.
I'm a complete laymen when it comes to all this stuff most of it just comes from little bits and pieces I pick up here and there. And a couple of books of read.... erm secret teaching of all ages, a practical guide to kaballistic symbolism, the golden bough and signs and symbols of primordial man - the evolution of religious doctrines from the eschatology of the ancient Egyptians. That's basically all I've read. But from what little I've gathered that is pretty much what all the ancient cults believed and preached, even some mainstream relatively modern religious sects of christianity believed... The cathars spring to mind. Modern western mystery schools... Guess I'll read this theology of arithmetic next, which reminds me... I've got that periphyseon to read nall
@@1invag I am too, I relax and enjoy the adventure. Its like caviar to my brain. ☺
If I hold an Orval for you, don't blame me if I drink it!
And more on topic, I'm fascinated by some of the ancient Greek philosophers' more esoteric ideas. One of the best classes I took at college was History of Western Thought 1. It took a pretty in-depth look at a lot of those ideas. And now I want to go read up on Empedocles again...
And his golden shoes!
I love this channel! Thank you for everything you do!
Wonderful insightful introduction to these works. Thanks for your great work.
Amazing video Dr. Sledge, thank you! Never would have drawn the line between Sefer Yetzirah and the Platonic numerology.. Makes more sense if we think that ancient greek numbers were alphabetic. Really interesting you mentioned string theory, waiting for the day you make a video linking that with some esoteric text!
I would have to know a lot more mathematical physics before I even thought to do that
@@TheEsotericaChannel Sabine Hossenfelder is the best place to start.
I grew up in a town named Plato and I’ve been drawn to the esoteric all my life ✨🌀 I’m so excited I found your channel
Dare I say this is my favorite video of yours so far. Much obliged, Dr Sledge. I do hope you come back to this wonderful material soon. I'll crack an Orval to your health.
I'm very much looking forward to seeing more videos of yours on Platonism!
This was a bit of a wild ride for me. Your explanation was enlightening , but I will have to listen again to this one to understand the arithmetical connections. Thank you!
Yeah a lot going on in this episode
love learning about esotericism in ancient philosophy. Especially LOVED your video on Parmenides (an old favorite of mine).
thanks for all the amazing content!
Thank you Dr. Sledge, Very, very interesting.
One of your best videos yet, and I’ve seen a lot of them lol
Amazing, i hope you will provide more lectures on this topic soon !
@Esoterica There's quite a bit of reference to this stuff in Byrthferth's Enchiridion if folks are interested in Old English work ;)
Glad to see another video, Doc! 😀
Another great episode Dr Sledge. Thanks again for making learning fun(ny)
I will be in touch very soon..I am so grateful for the work you have done in order to propagate important and rare knowledge..anyone who watches your videos and understands is benefiting from this truly useful information and should support your endeavours with financial contributions..that would allow you to unveil and explain more mysterious aspects of existence and go deeper into the fields..May Allah bless you..I respect your work and you as one of my teachers
THANK YOU FOR THIS! Please sir continue the highly indepth topic of arithmology. This was priceless. I am gonna have to make a donation to your patreon this work must continue and I don't have the time or know how to get to the bottom of all this like you. Again I plead return to this topic.
Ps that last part was too funny "apparently mathematics" 🤣
Perhaps it’s beyond the scope of this fantastic video, but this same thread of Platonic/Pythagorean number mysticism shows up everywhere in Philo no? It is central to his allegorical approach to “Moses” and supports the idea of the existence and continuity of the esoteric doctrines we are speculating about here.
Yep that's more middle platonism
Great topic Doc! Had to listen to I a couple of times, but once I got it, it was a “RUSH” Man!
Your dry sense of humor is THE BEST! Keep doin You, my Brother!
That was really wonderful (that sounds overblown, but I really enjoyed it). I wonder about the extent to which our understanding of Plato is hampered by philosophers owning him so much? Like, when I studied classical Greek history at undergrad level, I was told that Plato was essentially under the ownership of the Philosophy Department. I bring it up, because your description of Plato as having quasi-Pythagorean esoteric teachings seem very... obvious. I feel you'd only really dispute that if you really care about Platonic Philosophy.
I just think these categories are often pretty clumsy. Teaching intro level stuff if always going to oversimplify but it's pretty complex and owning that complexity is just the task of doing right by these amazing thinkers
@@TheEsotericaChannel My point is that philosophers tend to treat Plato as a live text that they can interact with and use to generate new ideas, (which is perfectly reasonable), however it seems like that process loses track of what the historical Plato actually thought (and it's to an extent not relevant). Like, I can see why a modern philosophy professor wouldn't be interested in these esoteric readings of Plato; from a modern perspective it's very odd. There's teaching students the Allegory of the Cave, and then there's precisely pinning down what those forms are.
What a prestigious presentation of Plato’s secret teaching, I deeply appreciate your efforts, older people in Iran would say about a good person who passed away, he had a big soul or large soul, part of Plato’s teaching on this video reminded me of that expression
Outstanding lecture. In the tradition Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, you have presented more than can be assimilated in one session. Therefore, I share mark this for several return visits.
Fascinating, as usual. Thank you. 🙏 🌞
This is fascinating, i look forward to following your journey (and piggybacking off your knowledge) to try to underderstand some of these topics!
I have pondered the relationship between mathematics and theology off & on for years, so this will be a real treat!
Great episode! As a mathematician, I'm keenly interested in this and what's been promised to come!
found it really hard to listen to in the beginning, but then just played it at 1.5 speed and now I'm subscribed :D
Amazing video, super interesting. Thank you for all your hard work 💜
Another Exciting Enlightening Educational Entertaining Esoteric Episode. Keep up the good work Doc.
No pitchforks here my friend, you are doing a great service to anyone interested in these topics, so thank you for that. Any scholars or even non scholars who become belligerent for hearing a differing opinion need to get overthemselves and open their minds.
Fantastic as always! I'm psyched as this is the sole time I have already had a text suggested in an episode! My wallet will be a bit happier at least. Now, time to pick back on with On the Heptad. Guess I got burned out around Seven middle of last year.
Ah Plato! The first dude to look at reality and think "Nah - it's just not REAL enough for me, man."
What an excellent video. The One limiting the indefinite line to produce number is an especially interesting thought, I'll be mulling over this for a while.
This is an incredible video. Great job!
You are absolutely amazing doc sledge, thank you for your personality and the excellent delivery of this educational material....
Excellent beginning - carry on!
Plato lecturing for hours on number theory, geometry and astronomy? Sign me the hell up for that! Fascinating video as always.
The fundamental book on this topic is Jacob Kline's _Greek Mathematical Thought and the Origin of Algebra._ The way the ancient Greeks conceptualize number is totally different than what you are accustomed to. It traces and describes all the similarities and differences, proving a very important essential point.
This man, Jacob Kline, established the present way of understanding Platonic texts as being special teaching devices -- confirming to invisible patterns, mathematical and otherwise, that guide one's mind into forming connections. Metaphysically speaking.
Leo Strauss said about this book that it was, "the single most important book written in the 20th century".
Just thought I would bring that up. Thanks bro
Reminds me why I love Esoterica: I always learn something! Thanks Dr. Sledge!!
Fascinating! I'll have to watch this 3 more times, but what a great intro.
I just love when you talk about Plato!
One of my favorite topics and videos so far! Loved the hold my beer portion too. Haha😁
Keep up the wonderfully insightful work Dr. Sledge⚡️
This came just in time
I have the theology of arithmetic pinned to my tab bar
I just finished reading the philokalia and nikitas stichathos meantioned 10 emanations
(like the sephirot or ophite diagrams)
that some one on a wiki said draws back to st. dionysius (whose works I'm almost done)
and iamblicus' theology of arithmetic speicifically. I was just talking about it too!
your videos are sooo satisfying ! you are a wonderful professor, Plato is so interesting
Plato was teaching the slave to calculate the square root of two. The slave was just following an algorithm and not actually learning. Just when it was getting interesting, he cut it off to talk memory and learning.
Dr S bringing the Sledgehammer to my brain. Great video
You're so well versed thank you for sharing your thoughts and brilliance sir.
This is very interesting. I think in understanding the numbers/letters/vibrations are key to understanding self and reality. Can't wait to hear more.
This rocks! I could take a vacation and just study Dr Sledge. He’s awesome.
Wow, thank you for going there! One of your best episodes hands down! I wonder myself whether today's mathematical description of reality is simply a continuation of the Pythagorean notion that numbers are the language of God. Is contemporary obsession with scientific materialism and the mathematical abstraction of the observable world just riding the intellectual wave set in motion by Pythagoras? "A body (or an idea) set in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon" - as another gentleman from the same tradition put it very eloquently while looking to transcribe the hidden divine language that governs realty.
I was waiting for an Elipheas Levi reference but I'm glad you linked the tradition to the Sefer Yetzira and Agrippa. Please keep making follow up investigations into Western esoteric numerology, there's very little else out there on the topic and it really gives Esoterica an edge.
Thanks for helping me with my studies on idealist philosophy!!
Perhaps the geometrical patterns found in much Islamic art are more than decorative ('arabesques'). I suspect that Muslim esoteric schools (Ismailis, Sufis...) found an ideal form of expression in geometrical art. As aniconic as any pious Muslim could wish, but carrying a complex set of insights which could be unlocked by a living teacher. Just speculating...
Mayhaps
And the Tibetan mandalas, too.
So fascinating! Some people who have reported near death experiences have experienced mathematical formulas and geometric shapes as part of their experience.
Your awesome Doctor Sledge.
Oh this rocks, emanationism is an awesome vector of exploration..
Very cool, I love videos about antiquity
Very good video. This seems to closely parallel the work of Harold W. Percival in the book, "Thinking and Destiny".
Yeah, i'd like to see more on the philosophy of mathematics. Thanks for the content.
Love your channel, I’ve learned so much stuff, some of your videos have literally had me on journeys of thousand hours of deep digging 😅 thanks, can you recommend please a source for the origins of Hecate 🙏🏽 I was searching for that when I run into this video and I couldn’t miss it 🤷🏽♀️, but don’t want to miss the opportunity to ask you for Hecate… thanks again, your work is inspiring 🌀
Nice work , Bro.
This is the stuff that keeps me on CZcams. Subbed! I would love to hear your thoughts on Rudolph Steiner .
It’s my favorite day!!😄
Awesome video and topic. I'm looking forward to more; the mystical application of mathematical theory is something that seems quite relevant to my own interests.
I would also be interested to hear more about what you're referencing with a project to ground arithmetic upon logic, which you seemed to imply was unsuccessful, but that seems not to agree with what I've seen, particularly in theoretical computer science.
Hello! I would be very interested if you made series about western esotericism through various movements that became popular in 19th century, the Golden Dawn, etc. Either way, I just wanted to say I really enjoy your videos, especially because I started my anthropology studies primarly interested in religion, and my interest faded a bit, so you made me come back to it, and I wanted to thank you because of it!
Phenomenal work.
This is fascinating, thank you so much, @ESOTERICA! Quick question: what edition is shown at 6:45 with the Greek and Latin side by side? This is exactly the sort of edition I would love to read, since my Latin is proficient, but my Ancient Greek is lacking in many ways. I've been searching online, but can't find anything... Much thanks!
Fantastic! Thank you~
Fantastic video!!
Justin,
Nothing like developing a thirst by discussing ancient wisdom with arithmologia.
"The prime barrier to humanity's discovery and comprehension of nature is the obscurity of the mathematical language of science."
R.B. Fuller
Great video!