The Tuesday Tune Ep 21 - High and low speed rebound
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- čas přidán 20. 11. 2017
- This week in the Vorsprung workshop, we take a look at how HSR and LSR adjustments work, how they interact and suggest some tuning methods to help you get the best out of your damper.
Quite notable with these adjusters is the huge overlap between the effects of the two as well as the interference they each have with one another. When tuning these, simplification is important, and we show you why that is and how to make setting up your rebound damping as simple as possible.
There are, as always, a few notes:
1. Simplification to remove variables can be beneficial because it allows you to get to 95% of the potential performance ceiling very easily, as opposed to a theoretical 100% of the performance ceiling that is very difficult to find.
2. Advanced tuning of these two adjusters can go beyond what we suggest in this video - the difficulty though is understanding exactly what interference effects you're causing.
13:31 for summary
1. Set HSR to Max (slowest)
2. Tune LSR
3. Open HSR *only* If you can't get rebound fast enough with the LSR adjustments
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Ive just read this after today following the video and setting my hsr to max (i thought max would be max rebound speed) so no wonder my tinkering got me nowhere.
Steve, please do that dyno testing on new RockShox fork/shock, as they claim their HS and LS are totally independent right now. Let’s see if it’s true! Love your work man
Thank you for sharing your suspension-knowledge, it really helped me a lot so far!
Steve...you rock!! Thanks for this videos.
Wow, this is really helpful information. Now, i began to understand how to use it. Thanks for that.
I like your videos. Please continue producing high quality tech talk vids. 👍
As usual Steve, killin it.
Thank you so much for the insight. Can’t wait to play with your suggestions :)
excellent! i highly appreciate your knowledge!
Thanks a lot for sharing your professionnal experience. Really interesting video and usefull
Thank you Steve. Been chasing my tail trying to get a good set up playing with hsr and lsr. Can finally understand how it works. Can’t wait to try this method
This video in particular has SUCH GOOD INFO!
Thanks so much for this rad videos of yours 🙏🏼🤙🏼😎
Mad love for this content!!
@vorsprungsuspension This was just the video I was looking for, I have a cane creek double barrel and am using a shockwiz to tune it. I couldn't wrap my head around why the shockwiz was constantly telling me to slow down the LSR, I must have turned it 8 clicks or more and still it was asking for more LSR. But then it dawned on me, if the HSR is too fast, I can't achieve as much LSR damping before the high speed circuit opens up. This video explains why so much LSR adjustment, was having such little effect. Shockwiz prioritizes tuning the LSR first, but I can see now why that is not a great idea!
awesome explanation, I have been doing it wrong from start, thanks a lot!
Nice, this simplifies a lot the setting on the X2
I tried this method and it actually worked pretty well on my 2020 X2! I still need to do some bracketing and work the compression, but the rebound feels very well so far.
Awesome Awesome video!
Legend !
Thx mate
Can you do a similar tutorial on the compression settings for the Float X2?
Hi Steve, great explanation. does this also apply to the rebound circuit of the Charger1 damper? Its clearly preloaded like a HSR adjuster would do, but apparently the Charger2 isn't preloaded anymore (or so I read somewhere). Is this an area where I should consider tweaking my forks character, or is it a waste of time? :-)
This makes a lot of sense with the dyno graphs and your explanation. For some reason I assumed shaft velocity on the shock was similar in compression and rebound but I now realize that was incorrect.
I have a DHX2 and could never really notice a ton of diff playing with LSR and HSR against each other.
One question: does heavier spring rate coil impact whether HSR fully closed gets you enough speed on LSR? I run a 500# spring on an Aurum Carbon, 2017 DHX2.
Spring rate does impact where your HSR would end up in order to get an appropriate setting from your LSR yes. Heavier spring rates will see you end up with both adjusters further towards closed, typically.
Hey, great video. Is it possible to do a video on how the rebound and compression damping affects the way the suspension reacts under breaking ? My bike seems to get really bouncy under hard breaking(more so on steeper trails)
There's a lot of aspects at play there - the kinematics of your frame have a huge effect on braking performance as well as the suspension setup itself. For example, if you're riding a high pivot bike without a floating brake (eg Zerode DH bike) it will squat a lot under braking. By contrast, if you ride an old Lawwill linkage bike without a floating brake, it'll do the exact opposite. Most bikes lie somewhere in between, with fairly moderate geometric effects on braking, but the differences are still substantial enough to be very noticeable.
Hi Steve I have a super deluxe shock with 3.5 tokens on my Orange Switch 6 which I feel I can’t get the rebound to be fast enough at 140psi.
Would you recommend a revalve to speed up the high speed rebound? I’m after a bit more pop out of compressions and I also feel the bike sits into its travel to much.
Still apply to a 2020 DHX2?
How about the grip2 damper?
Would same rules apply to a fork? Example a Fox Grip 2 damper with both HSR and LSR adjustment knobs.
Very interesting I think I'll try this out when my dhx2 comes in. Do you find similar results on fork dampening?
Same doubt here!
Hey Steve, would this apply to a 2010 boxxer World Cup?
@VorsprungSuspension thank you for the video. very helpful to see interaction between HSR and LSR.
Question: is it safe to do this tuning method on Cane Creek Kitsuma. My worry is that range of adjustments is quite wide on that shock and if I completely close the HSR circuit I will damage the shock or decrease the longevity of it or internal components, since oil will be forced to flow mainly through the LSR circuit.
Thank you. :bow:
Just wanted to share my experience here, after watching this video I ran my HSR fully closed on my DHX2 for a few weeks of trail riding. However I started to notice a hard top out feel, adding more LSR didn't help to reduce the top out, so I ended up having the shock looked at. It appears that the rebound circuit had failed. I'm not saying this was caused by running the HSR fully closed, but it could have been the cause. Just a heads up to anyone watching this who's thinking of giving it a try. Steve, feel free to comment if you have any thoughts on this situation. Cheers.
What do you mean that "the rebound circuit had failed"? What was the mode of failure? Running the HSR fully in will not cause issues unless you force it past the end of its range and break the internal stop (which can happen pretty easily on either HSR or HSC circuits) and will result in metal fragments floating around inside the shock which can jam circuits open. Beyond that, the entire range is intended to be usable, and other common failure modes (eg the shaft seal leaking oil or the piston band blowing off the piston on MY2018/19 shocks) are not related to where you run your adjusters.
Vorsprung Suspension I believe that the rebound damping had stopped working, because the shock was topping out very harsh, no matter how much rebound was applied, as in feeling the inner bump stop. I agree that it may definitely have been from over tightening the valve. I mainly mentioned this to hear your thoughts on whether it could have been from running the shock in the fully closed HSR config. Appreciate all the info you provide. Cheers
No worries - I understood that the rebound damping stopped functioning as intended, but that could be due to many causes, not specifically the rebound circuits themselves. For example, the compression valves could be jammed open, which prevents oil from being forced through the rebound circuits, the piston band could have come off the piston (common issue on 2018/19 shocks), the seals could have blown and simply dumped oil, the piston could have come loose from the shaft, etc. If it's topping out harshly but appears to have rebound damping and the adjusters still have some effect, there's a good chance the spring is too heavily preloaded too.
Vorsprung Suspension Gotcha, thanks for the response on the issue, love learning about all the details of these shocks. Luckily the shock was replaced easily by the company and I'm back in action, but all of that is good to know for the future. Thanks again and looking forward to the next TT.
Great videos. Considering your suggested tuning method for rebound, do you feel that linear rebound valving is preferred over a digressive valve?
Largely, but not entirely, yes. There is nothing inherently wrong with digressive valving in rebound - in particular for more rigid vehicles (including bicycles when you are sitting down rather than standing) they have some advantages. However, linear rebound valving has some advantages when standing up:
1. It's very predictable, what you feel in the carpark is actually pretty representative of what happens on the trail
2. There are less variables to deal with, which makes it FAR easier to get right
3. It's typically safer than digressive rebound damping in that the high speed control is stronger. With that said, if your HSR is set up well in either case, it shouldn't really matter.
This also assumes that the rebound adjuster actually functions well and doesn't have a crazy amount of bleed, which some do unfortunately!
is this similar to grip 2 damper?
@vorsprungsuspension I'm trying to set up my x2 I'm getting harsh hits on like chattery roots and steps... Im using fox recommended settings at the min..any recommendations please? Thanks
Too much air in ur tyres
I've been looking for info on rs vivid r2c settings and this has been best video I've found.
I don't like that rockshox isn't using similar terminology on their 2 rebound knobs. Beginning/ending position vs hi/low speed seems between confusing and stupid. They are talking about the exact same thing or are they looking at the problem differently?
Steve, could you help me out with the LSC and the HSC adjustment for my YT Capra? I'm running 160 PSI. Fully gear in 155. I'm running my HSR (1) from fully closed and my LSR (10).
My HSC is (14) from closed and LSC is (12) from closed.
Hi Steve, thx for the excellent videos! I just got a 2019 Fox 36 with Grip2 damper. I’m a light guy at 145lbs and fox recommends tuning the HSR to minimum and mid range LSR. With 2 extra tokens over stock @55psi, I find in big chunky hits and jump landings the fork rebounds a bit fast coming out from deep travel. My intuition says I should dial in more HSR and reassess LSR at the new HSR setting. Does this sound like sound process? Does the new Grip2 High speed adjuster using the wavy spring on the shim stack still behave the same way this video explains? Or does the new HSR adjuster produce different dyno curves? Do you recommend starting with maximum HSR with this fork damper?
Thx for your help! Alan
Still waiting for a response 😂.
@@topjmmi I too am working with Fox's new VVC technology on a Fox 38 and still have found this method to be successful in it's merit. Worst case scenario, start with the adjusters halfway and begin to bracket each in one direction or another by process of elimination and feel. Cheers
@@topjmmi some where in the comments Steve mentions that this doesn't apply to the forks.
I have a cane creek db IL which way do I turn to get my HSR to max, it has + or - indicators next to the bolts
pyrophonics clockwise fully will make it full slow. CCW will fully open for fastest (undamped) rebound
so apparently the high speed adjuster doesnt really change the preload, but the stiffness of the highspeed-valve-spring?
Does the technique of HSR full in and adjust rebound via LSR work well with the front fork as well ('21 Fox Factory 36 GRIP2 damper)?
What about Grip2? Is this also applicable to fork damper? Thx
No, only for the X2 and Cane Creek Double Barrel rear shocks.
Does this apply to fox 40 forks with high and low reb..
So much crosstalk between the low and high speed rebound adjuster. I wonder what is the level of interference between compression and rebound adjuster ie when compression is adjusted, what change in rebound can one expect?
In the X2 dampers, it's extremely small - realistically nil. Likewise with the Cane Creek dampers. Some dampers see some crosstalk between rebound adjustment and compression damping, but it's not always substantial. Compression adjustment usually has little or no effect on rebound though.
Does this method of close off (slowest) HSR still apply today to tune the new factory 2022 fox float X2 and DHx2 coil shocks? Also will this method work for the fox 38 grip 2 damper also?
No (see comments below)
So has anyone tried this with good success? I've got my dhx2 pretty dialed but on the really fast hits with lots of bumps/rocks/high speed chatter, my feet feel like they are vibrating off the pedals. I'm going to try this.
How’d it work out for you
I'm finding really hard to get much help with my 2020 patrol with fox 2020 dhx2 it's has a 708lbs ohlins spring fitted 24% sag transition calls for 20/25% sag on coil
my setting are
ssr 2 from full clockwise
Hsr 2
Ssc 5
Hsc 2
Bike just feels dead and lack of grip.
no trust in not getting Bucked on jumps at speed
Being told by local suspension shop I need to have the shock damper and rebound retuned to suit my heavyweight 122kg 6ft5 (HELP ME PLEASE).
Hey Steve & the Vorsprung Suspension team,
this video features a super nice test and the results are explained really well!
But what i wonder is, if we can adapt the presented information to forks wit H/LSR like let's say a fox fork with grip 2 dampers, too? If this is not applicable, could you make a similar video where you point out similarities or differences between fork / shocks regarding H/LSR? Thank you!
It is not applicable to Grip2 dampers or the new VVC valves - they don't behave in the same way as this.
@@VorsprungSuspension thank you for your fast response to my comment, Steve! 😊
As i could not find a video from you about the VVC in particular - does that technology mean, that Grip2 rebound damper show a kind of “higher independence” than the shocks’ rebound referred to in this video?
What source do you recommend for understanding VVC?
Do you know of a test & graph similar to the one you performed here for a grip 2 fork by any chance? Guess that’d be treasure 🤗
Thank you & keep it up🙏
@@BeroBaer I hope he answers this eventually. I'd also like to know.
@@dukeofmtb Hi, Steve answered someone else in the comments that this doesn't apply to the Grip2 or other forks.
Hi I have a x2 I'm 85 to 90 kg if I set my high speed to maximum were roughly should I put my low speed please il give it a try
This is a great video, can you please clarify "minimum" and "maximum"? I'm assuming minimum resistance, aka fully open, and maximum resistance, aka fully closed? Closed being fully turned clock wise to close, and open being fully turned counter clock wise?
I just want to make sure I understand your lingo correctly.
Hey thanks a lot for the explainations ! Is that still applicable to the 2021 DHX2 ?
No - not the VVC dampers, only the 2016-2020 (or thereabouts) "RVS" dampers.
Hi good video. I've got a 2021 x2 I'm 90 kg with riding gear I got my shock back from a tuning shop set at hsr 2 clicks out from fully clockwise lsr 13 hsc 3 lsc 3 .the shock feels very quick on 13 lsr would you back it in more or change any iff theese settings please thanks Callum
Please note this video is not applicable for the 2021+ X2 shocks. They use a different (much improved) rebound valving system. HSR at -2 should give you plenty of range using the LSR adjuster though - there's no specific problem with simply winding your LSR in further if you feel the need.
Would this HSR full closed and using LSR for control 'hack' be applicable on a new model Fox Grip 2 VVC HSR and VVC HSC fork?
No - it is NOT applicable to the VVC adjustment mechanism either in the forks or the shocks.
@@VorsprungSuspension Got it! Thank you for the reply.👍
@@VorsprungSuspensionThanks, had the same question. Perhaps you could provide a new video explaining why, show us some dyno data, and what the tuning/setup process looks like for those dampers? Thanks!
you recommend to close out hsr only on shocks, or can i also use on fork?
Only on pre-VVC Float X2 and DHX2 shocks. Not on any forks, not on any 2021+ shocks.
Is this also applicable to the new Fox 36 Grip 2?
No - they use a totally different system, there is no preload on the rebound shim stack in the Grip2 damper. It is a very good system.
@@VorsprungSuspension What's a good way to dial a Grip2 damper in? Thanks in advance
Would you recommend the same for the 2021 X2s with VVC?
No - the VVC rebound damping behaves much differently, it's a much better system. Start with Fox's recommendations as per their website.
@@VorsprungSuspension Fox grip2 damper has VVC too,so It don't applies to the grip2 dampers?
@@chadson5244 correct. Not applicable to those forks/shocks. The VVC rebound system is quite a lot better than the poppet-based system in the 2016-20 X2s (and the 2005-current CCDBs) in terms of being able to generate sufficient HS rebound without excessive low to mid speed rebound.
i will now go wind HSR to max damping
I wonder how these curves would look on the 2021 models with the HSR shims changing leverage instead of preload...
Totally different, fortunately. VVC is a way better method of adjusting HSR than this was.
@@VorsprungSuspension was hoping someone had asked my 2021 far exceeds the 2019 dhx in Rebound damping control
Great video that I have watched numerous times. After prolonging the dropouts on my bike I am now in that critical range where the LSR is completely open and the rebound is too slow. Should I continue to have the LSR completely open and use the HSR as my primary adjuster? Or should I open the HSR a few more clicks and have a range of LSR to work with?
Yeah this is what I’m wondering. Maybe use his method of bracketing from where you’re at to further dial it in?
My question as well!
Is all this applicable to Cane Creek Kitsuma coil aswell?
Hi, he mentioned in the video that this setup process is the same for Cane Creek. The Air and Coil share the same damper.
HSR max means fully closed? i have the cane creek inline coil on a Reign and i basically set the HSR to the same as HSC at half closed
Max means fully closed/fully slow yes.
Vorsprung Suspension
So you mean it's good to set the HSR as slow as possible and then adjust the LSR?
did you even watch this movie? Yes. hsr set to slower as possible.
@@VorsprungSuspension what do you suggest for 2020 x2
steve so basically the high speed rebound is there for different leverage ration bike frame and different rider weight...for instance HSR 1 - LSR 1-10 leverage ratio 2.5 rider 50kg , HSR 2 LSR 1-10 LR 2.5 rider 60kg ,HSR 3 - LSR 1-10 LR 2,5 rider 70kg...is this why shock are have HPR?
That's a reasonably good way of looking at it yes - the high speed adjuster sets the range of the low speed adjuster.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, the intensity of every 10 clicks or so of LSR is affected by every individual click of HSR?
Does the same logic apply to the compression circuits?
Nope, those need to be done differently with a proper understanding of what each one adjusts. We've already made videos of those, might be easier to find them on our tech blog on the Vorsprung website than on CZcams because I'm not sure whether they're correctly titled on CZcams.
Its difficult enough to understand but then when you use terms like “open” and “closed” then “minimum” and “max then winding in or winding out, anti clockwise and clockwise, its a struggle. Appreciate you trying to help though.
Closed.slow.max.winding in Open.fast.minimum.winding out
@@TNStrikeman open and closed are the wrong way imo and there the confusion starts. I got where i needed to get by studying the pictures.
I still don’t understand what high speed and low speed compression is!!! Jaidnfnsisnfhfnnsushsnsjfjfnnff”
Then watch his video on compression, this is on rebound
Low speed rebound vs low speed compression. Same thing I assume
Definitely not - LSC/HSC should not be tuned this way.
I knew it. It’s bullshit, ohlins and moto x, moto gp etc, top level two wheeled sport doesn’t have hsr adjustment.
The advice here is wind it to max and ignore it.
Does this still apply to the 2020 X2 shocks?
No, it does not - nor does it apply to the Grip2 fork dampers.
@@VorsprungSuspension thanks for clarifying!
@@VorsprungSuspension If you wouldn't mind, please clarify if this applies to the "2021" shocks. The "2020" shocks were actually released last year. I believe the question here is if this applies to the VVC high-speed rebound shocks, which would make sense that the theory does not apply because I imagine the dyno will show different results due to the new tech.