Cyrusher Kommoda - Is it actually legal?
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2023
- Many people have commented that the Cyrusher Kommoda e-bike is not legal, due to the power rating of its hub motor. But what is the law and what do you think? CORRECTION - this bike has a 750W 'peak rated' motor, not the 1000W I thought when recording. Initial test video here: • HubNut reviews the Cyr...
Note that Cyrusher try to dodge the bullet by claiming they have no liability should you find yourself on the wrong side of the law. Visit cyrusher.co.uk to see for yourself.
Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer and could be entirely wrong. Make your own mind up but DO do your research. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Being called the Kommoda, does it have a hole in the seat feeding a pipe connected to a storage tank?
Only works if you cry "WEEEEEEE!!" when speeding downhill.
Next time you are at UpnDown, you could put the bike on his rolling road to measure the real output.
Watch out Bella.
I saw a kid "cycling" on one of these at a good 40km/h on a cycle path near Amsterdam. Probably a 14 year old boy, no helmet. Moped speeds without a moped license, without a moped helmet.
I can't understand what the hell his parents are thinking.
I also see these properly restricted (very often), though the pedals are often just used in a vestigial way. One half rotation per second is enough to keep them running at 25km/h.
The dutch government did stress that these things are very illegal when unrestricted and fitted with a hand throttle.
That said, pedal assist stuff is in general a good thing for exactly the reasons Ian says. My parents are in their late 60s, and still cycle for hours a day thanks to pedal assist. It keeps them active and gives them the freedom to see all the nice things that are not as nice or easy to get to with a car.
You do wonder. I do see these being bought for teenagers. Doesn't seem a good idea to me at all.
There's nothing in the law that says you can't turn the pedals slow to get it to move. That's just how cadence sensors are. As long as the pedals are going around it'll give all the power.
Any ebike that uses pedal cadence sensors rather than a torque sensor can be ridden at maximum speed while minimally turning the pedals. Lots of cheaper ebikes do that (I hired one in the Netherlands earlier this year), and it's great when you need to take a bit of a break going against a headwind. The down sides are that if you're not providing any help to the motor you get through the battery very quickly, and also cadence assist delivers power very crudely in an on/off sort of way. Of course if you de-restrict a cadence-assist bike you've effectively got a motorbike with pedals.
Given that the UK legislation is EAPC, not EPAC, the fact they’ve printed the sticker wrong might be another red flag!
Ha! Good spot! I didn't even notice...
As for the EScooters for hire in most Cities and Town's I bet they are way more than 250 Watts they are definitely not pedal assisted have a hand throttle and a lot are also used 2 UP and very often by people who have had way more Alcohol than the drink drive limit for our UK road traffic Laws.
It makes you wonder about Corruption and who is getting back hander payments to ignore the obvious illegal activities by an awful lot of companies.
EAPC is the term used in UK legislation EPAC is the term used in European legislation but essentially they are the same thing
Ah. Good to know. Thanks.
@@stephenjones9153That’s quite a claim. Do you have evidence? Not of the 2 up and drunk riding, that’s nothing to do with the operators just as someone drink driving a hired Fiesta with 6 people in it is not Ford or Enterprise’s fault. Evidence that all the e scooters are actually illegal to operate and the companies and local authorities involved are corrupt?
UK law has ALWAYS been badly defined in this area. Before it was brought into line with EU directives, it simply used to state a limit of 200 Watt for a bicycle and 250 Watt for a tricycle, both with a 15mph limit for assistance (no requirement to pedal). The duty cycle at which the power rating was specified was not properly defined. Electric motors typically have 'S' ratings. S1 operation is defined at a constant load maintained for sufficient time to allow the machine to reach thermal equilibrium (it's maximum operating temperature). S2 operation is also constant load, but for a specified time period, after which it is alowed to cool back down before being loaded again. A 1 hour rating is quite common and for small motors, the power rating will only be a little bit higher than the S1 duty. The appropriate Britich Standard states that a motor must produce NOT LESS that it stated power, but gives no limit on how much more it can produce. It gets more complicated now, becuase it's the drive systems that is rated, not the thermal limit of the motor. The motor in the Sinclair C5 was actually rated at something like 375 Watt, because a 250 Watt motor simply wouldn't survive the use and even then they were fairly easy to overheat. Usiing a much higher power capable motor and then limiting continuous power in software is a much more reliable approach, but the peak power, or maximum acceleration are not covered by legislation and probably should be. The requirement to pedal by that way, was introduced because so many people had trouble with a twist grip throtle. It's not uncommon for inexperienced riders to apply more throttle if they get a little panicked, logically, you should really have to roll a throttle forward to go faster, rather than back. People will stop pedaling if they're going to fast.
There are so many variables in the steady state temp; aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance, ambient temp, airflow, driveline efficiency etc. You'd need a well setup lab and carefully defined operating parameters to test and sign-off.
One might argue that, as with many other things, the EU directives made the situation worse, not better. E-bikes have only fairly recently become commonplace. In the past they were a quite unusual, and the legislation didn't really require stricter definitions. I don't think the restrictions on power output are especially useful, as long as the speed and throttle restrictions are built in.
Law seems pretty well defined, 250W max motor. It's the motors themselves that aren't well defined.
It isn't 250w max. It's 250w continuous max, which seems very variable.
@@HubNut Can you get hold of the EN15194 test report? I found one for another make which says "The maximum continuous rated power shall be measured
according to EN 60034-1 when the motor reaches its thermal equilibrium as specified by the manufacturer." and it had 250W as that rating so restricting by the controller doesn't seem to meet the spec.
Fair play for assessing a manufacturer's gift with fairness and maturity instead of feeling obliged to be all glowing about it.
I do enjoy that the tyres appear to be just slightly wider than those on the 2CV!
This is definitely one of your best videos , it would be great if companies could get you to test pilot their E bikes, it’s good to see you putting them through their paces living in wales
The restrictor analogy at 5:40, a guy in my class at college somehow found himself riding a Street Triple, after a few months he "realised" it wasn't restricted and went to get that fitted. Tbh, amazed he lived long enough to "realise" 😂 made us all feel his slider the day he got his knee down on the way in...
Looking at the website, it says 250watt (limited) and 1000 watt peak. I think this is worded to make it look legal, if it was legal it would be worded 250watt (continuous), 1000 watt peak as it's the continuous wattage that counts not that it's limited.
In addition, the look of these bikes highlight a more powerful motor so you are more likely to get stopped over a standard looking eBike (even if that other bike had same motor) Bit like having a GTi over a bog standard model in the day...
After reading through the comments I can't help but think these bikes have a place in the world. If it takes single occupancy cars off the road for local journeys then it has to be a good thing. It is restricted to 15.5mph so what's the problem? Having some extra wattage to help get you up hills doesn't seen like a bad thing to me. Sadly I think a lot of this is people resent bikes and are using this as an excuse to cause a fuss. What we all need to do as drivers and riders is respect each other a little more and remember we all have families to get home to safely.
Stickers can be bought on E Bay to make the motor legal.
I've got a 250w sticker on my 2000w motor.
Love that!
Volts x Amps = Watts . The Cyrusher has a battery of 48 volts the motor controller allows 22 amps of current. 1056 watts at the motor . The only restriction is the speed which is capped at 15.5 mph (25kph) . You are quite correct however no e bike I've ever come across is actually only 250w most peak around 500- 600 w using 36volt batteries and 15 amp controllers. Companies tend to stamp the motor as 250w even though the actual power comes from the battery voltage and current (amps ) allowed by the controller. The law around e bikes is quite frankly a joke and needs a re think.
Ian is vaguely correct in what he said.
It is as you say Simonbean, the 250 w is just a legal thing , most 250 watt bikes are capable of 500 - 600 watts , it just depends on the amperage of the power supply ,that is the important thing, the more volts you can waz throught it the more go it has, electric motors are happy to run at a sub optimal power, raise it close to the peak ,and you burn it out, the same goes if it labours too low, it will burn out.
It's fact most motors are rated at 750, ,it's just the rate these motors are volted/ ampered by the controller.
Just by stating it's a 250 w motor makes it 'Legal'
The 250W continuous limit in itself *does* seem the best option in my opinion, though it's obviously not clear enough how that's defined, or seemingly enforced at all.
With a higher power motor, it's always going to be relatively easy to get higher speed(for a considerably length of time) - if they restrict the battery, people will just swap in a higher capacity one(or put another in parallel). If the controller limits the power &/or speed, people will bypass the limit(which is sometimes barely hidden anyway)
You could require controllers which can't handle over a specific amount of current, but it probably wouldn't be ideal regularly running them at max.
@@DoubleMonoLRhonestly nothing around ebikes is really enforced. The power rating law makes absolutely no sense it's impossible to just have a flat 250w of power that's not how electronics work in the slightest. As long as somebody isn't flying down the road at 40mph without pedalling I doubt the police would ever care.
I think there is a big grey area with these bikes. Well done for calling out the company on it!
Is he going to give the bike back If he's that unhappy with it? that's what he should do. Don't hold your breath. The grift goes on...
@@limmoblack "the grift" - he's got one free bike, dude. Get a grip.
If you watch the video, you'll see I said I'm happy to keep riding it. Would you turn down a free e-bike? Curious to know.
Behave yourself! CZcams is his job! If he gets free stuff then good luck to him! At least he's honest about it and isn't afraid to question their practices!
@@HubNut Why curious? I ride ebikes, but if someone 'gave' me an ebike for free, I wouldn't then go slag it off, especially as it's a British firm trying to get successful. Just give the bike back.
Good video, Ian. Here in the Netherlands these fat tire electric bikes are a real nuisance since young kids are riding them unrestricted and with throttle. Also no helmet and insurance because they are not necessary here for "regular" ebikes. All because the 25 kmh mopeds now do require wearing a helmet.
Same here in the UK. 🤕
Same in Germany
All bikes in New zealand require a helmet to be worn.
Why wouldn't you wear a helmet?
@@billeves4627 I don't know, we are not used to that. Feels like a bit of a hassle for a non electric bike. You have to understand that over here the bicycle is used a lot for very short trips to get groceries etc. So having the hassle of carrying a helmet around is nog really worth it.
E bikes are, as you say, a game changer for some riders.
I have a Škoda e retro bike, being a
mild asthma sufferer, it helps me to peruse my love of cycling, which would not be as achievable with a conventional bicycle.
As with most other machines, including cars, if they are used, and maintained the way the manufacturer intended, then as a general rule, they are safe, and just as importantly, legal!.
You raise some good points. Thinking about normal vehicles for a minute, the same type of problems exist. How many diesels are running around the UK with a deleted DPF? I would guess it's more than the number of deresitrcited ebikes. Same goes for tinted windows, straight pipe exhausts etc. So it's a wider problem that extends further than just eBikes - and just goes to show how diffuclt it is to police these kind of issues.
The ones you have seen on the news are typically Surron electric motorbikes. They don't even pretend to be ebikes. Surrons will do 50-60 mph straight out of the box. Also don't forget if the Police do stop you riding an illegal "Ebike" you can get points on your car licence (or even a straight ban).
Who the heck buys one of those for a teenager?!
@@HubNut Ian it's America, land of the free home of the stupid from what I have seen within e-bike classifications an electric off roader like a seron as a electric off-road bike is mentioned so in the grey zone from being mentioned within the regulations
teenagers steal them@@HubNut
Its so that their children can do their job of delivering drugs safely
@@Kevin-dp1vyexactly this.
I must get one of those thanks for the heads up
Ian, having the capability of using more than 250W to exceed 15.5mph is not the same as exceeding the speed limit. Even TWC can exceed the speed limit in a built up area, but you are required to limit the speed you achieve and I think this will be the case with this bike. Provided you haven't bypassed the limiter.
It's almost 60 years since any vehicle has been able to achieve its full potential on Britain's roads, since the 70mph limit was introduced as a trial in 1965. Yet almost every car you've owned will probably have been able to exceed that limit.
I remember that all boys tuned up their mopeds to ridiculous speeds. Yes, the police came and measured output (they had a special van for that with rolling road) and measure noise output. But really it was mostly a question of putting a bigger carburettor on it. Ready to go 50 miles an hour (25 allowed) in a few minutes of work. There is nothing new going on. Nobody in their right mind back then said that moped should not be used or should be changed. Times have changed.
Here, the kids tend to just remove the entire exhaust system I think. Not sure they go quicker but they definitely make a lot more noise...
How did we survive 😏 there are always some people who search for a thing to moan about. The thing that has yt up in arms is that so many were given away foc and they smell a rat. Methinks the cops have enough to do to bother chasing there. The druggies will probably have these in the estates "peddling' their wares to the afflicted.
Back in the late 1960s I had a Sport Garelli 50cc moped, and my pride and joy was a speeding ticket from the Met police showing a speed of 60 mph on a flat section of the A12. I was congratulated by the copper and given a written warning
Usually derestricting is done by blanking off a small pipe on the exhaust and removing a washer in the variator (gearbox) some to go for sports exhausts aswell to add that bit more and some bigger cylinder kits. It's a massive market and I'd like to be 90% of the mopeds on the road don't fit the moped bracket. It will happen I'm not sure with e bikes it's a great idea. Mopeds I've rode a restricted one and damn dangerous far safer able to keep up with traffic but obviously with everything people do go overboard.
@@90vanman pretty impressive for that era as most stuff was just built to do 30 unlike modern stuff that is easily derestricted.
Appreciate your candor. Sadly most reviews don't seem to admit to the transgressions 'to the rules' that many manufactures are taking. If you want to go 'fast' buy a motorcycle or scooter. If you want an E-bike for assist, stay off of sidewalks. Deciding to simply 'make' your own rules really ends up creating problems for everyone. This seems to be an issue now in every country, and again, we all pay. Thanks for being willing to speak out.
I was on my regular road bike (not electric) one day in Arizona and I was approaching a small intersection where the approaches of the other street (perpendicular to my travel) were completely obscured by high walls. Just as I almost reached the actual intersection and was about to cross the sidewalk running along the side of the other road a young guy on an electric bike who was NOT pedaling whizzed by at a very high speed on the sidewalk that I was about to cross. If I have been five seconds sooner at arriving to that intersection I might have pulled up to cross that sidewalk and been nailed by this guy on his obviously deregulated and almost completely silent e-bike. He would have had zero insurance and I would have had to deal with any injuries all on my own. This experience kind of un-nerved me for a bit. So I completely understand Ian's point about being pissed off by this stuff.
The thing is, since time began, people have been modifying their vehicles to go faster, it’s the same as de-restricting a motorbike by removing the washer from the exhaust, or remapping your golf diesel to get an extra 80bhp from it, the point is, if you choose to modify, then the risk and responsibility is on YOU, Not the manufacturer! If you choose to modify, and not told your insurance (where applicable) you have made the vehicle illegal, no one else. Maybe the wire mod you mentioned is a bit too easy, but a remap on a golf is a two minute job also given the knowledge. They have shot themselves in the foot by showing the peak output though, all motors draw a huge current until they get up to speed, (which is why the lights in your garage may flicker when your small air compressor in your garage starts up) they should have maybe displayed the output as ‘MAX’ instead of giving a specific reading. Great channel 👍
Thanks for raising this Ian. I'm concerned that people will have to be killed using, or by these and similar easily de-restricted devices before proper, clear and effective controls are introduced. Their reckless use by anyone, of whatever age is an increasingly common problem. As for Cyrusher's disclaimer - it's borderline negligence.
If it is limited to 15.5mph, it should be legal. Why not run it past the Blackbelt Barrister. Could make some interesting content for both of you.
Law says 250watts also
@@jusb1066that's touching on the grey area:
I'm pretty bloody sure Ian was using way more power then 250W when he did that uphill run in that test video. But it could very well be that he didn't break any speedlimit.
@@jfv65 law says it's not just the speed limit but also the watts. In the same way mopeds are limited to 30 mph, and also 50cc, a slow 250cc doesn't become a legal moped. If it can exceed 250 Watts from more than 10 seconds then under electric specifications it's not a 250w. I'm saying that they advertised it as 800 and they are obviously not trying to meet the law, and I bet it's easily bypassed to allow full power in throttle mode just by going into the right menu
@@jusb1066 250 W continuous power though. I don't know if there's a limit on peak power output in the UK. In Austria it's 250 W continuous/650 W peak so this bike wouldn't conform.
@@Ragnar8504 at least Austria has been smart enough there
I'm very glad that I'm old enough not to have any dealings with this new tech.
Trying to figure out range, charging points, modes of use, hot/cold weather running etc would be too much for my old brain to contend with.
Happy to use ICE as long as I'm able.
Intresting little video on this bike Ian, the local youth haves these where I stay and i reckon these have been tampered with to go quicker.
Now when are Cyrusher sending me my free bike 😂😂
There's a police crackdown going on in towns where I live in rural western Finland. The kids here have been derestricting their scooters, quad bikes for years and have now moved onto e-bikes. The problem is that they're being ridden by much younger kids as well.
Killjoys. I was driving a Ford Anglia that I bought for £50 around rural western Ireland when I was 13, late 80s. Same thing, different era.
@@kevfit4333 Nah it's not the same Kev - these little sh*ts are silent, utterly clueless and have no head protection (or anything else)
They swing across you in slow traffic and if you hit them at 15-20 mph you'd maim them
Worse, they'd screw your car and your NCB would be out the window when you had it fixed - assuming you were fully comp - and if not, you get to pay for the damage on top.
(And no, I was no saint - I had a 6 month ban on my provisional for racing a plain clothed police car at Camber Sands with no L-plates on 😄😄😄)
@@kevfit4333 It's all good fun until something bad happens. Police aren't interested, until they hit someone and cause life changing injuries. Then the book will be thrown at them, like the guy in London on a push bike with no front brake (illegal) that killed a pedestrian. Why does it have to go that far before action is taken?
Personally i think they are a menace for the most part. I regularly see them zipping in and out of traffic and not obeying the rules of the road. You are right about it being mostly young lads too, some not even old enough to ride a moped. I drive a tram in Nottingham and have been overtaken while doing around 50kph. It is scary to be honest.
What you're talking about is things like the Sur-ron. This kind of bike even derestricted won't do those kinds of speeds.
Zipping in and out of traffic and not obeying the rules of the road can hardly be blamed on any bike. Surely it is the rider who controls the bike?
Its a bit like the fizzy 50cc mopeds of the 70's and 80's. Officially restricted to 30mph but if you knew how could make it go faster 😊
The difference being, the electric bikes that scroats use don't have pedals, lights, registration plates, tax, insurance etc, so ARE illegal. At least the fizzy bikes had all the legal requirements to be on the road, and most owners knew to wear the appropriate gear and insurance etc. BIG difference to the louts who think they are above the law today. I was driving home the other day and weaving through the traffic was a teenager with a young passenger on the back, no protection, and thought it clever to film themselves on the bike whilst riding it at speed down the middle of the road. I bet in a collision, it would be the driver who would be blamed and not the tit on the bike!
@@andrewhaines3259exactly! Same idiots here in Boston!
One of the rarest mopeds here in Canada where it was only, and briefly, sold in the province of Québec and therefore Yamaha sold it as the Québecois. The provincial government entity in charge of such things didn't know about this kind of moped, so they drafted a legislation that simply said that at 14 you could ride a vehicle with pedals and an engine of no more than 50cc. That's it, no power or speed limitations. They quickly corrected their mistake when this 80km/h moped began whizzing around, but those that were already registered were grandfathered in and are still a very desirable artifact of the 1970s.
@@CaptHollister I didn't realise Canada also had incompetent politicians. Were they related to our tories? 🤣
@@CaptHollister It was the same in France. In France a top of the range Mobylette or Kreidler would have been more common.
Valid points made there Ian. I own a Dawes Arc II which is a folding electric bike, which meant I could chuck it into the back of a car without a problem and go to wherever I wanted. Bought it back in 2020. It does look vaguely like a Brompton, but just chunkier. It only has range of 30 to 35 kms, but that is plenty for most folks.
Loads of delivery riders in Coventry hack around on similar to these. 35mph uphill and not pedalling.
Scary, dangerous and uninsured.
Undoubtedly, there are a lot of illegally used bikes out there. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have legitimate ones but it would be nice if manufacturers took a bit more responsibility.
Makes a change from all the moped riding delivery riders on L plates.
Same where I live. Several of the fast food shops round here are in a pedestrianised section of the high street which is now infested with.
@@HubNutwhy you show us something illegal when some people buying illegal motorbikes has well but you said to be me before you don't ride those sort of thing bike has 2 wheels but that bike you showing us has no engine but what is that you don't like motorbikes i know you said you have no licence to ride a motorbike but you lie in this video riding a bike I know what you going to say that bike not motorbike there's difference well I still think you should get you motorbike licence because what happened if someone comes on here ask you Same question has I did you better have good answers for them mate
Having a higher peak output is normal, Bosch (and.. well, that's probably a bit more legit) cites 586W peak power for their CX and active line series.
Careful mate. You'll have the whole Welsh Police force knocking on your door. They like things like this 🤣🤣
I think Officer Dibble has his hands full 😂
I do think that e bikes have a place and if it gets people out on a bike then that is good. I do love the idea of a step through bike we called them shoppers or dutch frame when i was younger
Thanks Ian. That speed limit and power at the wheel restriction sets it apart from being an electric motorcycle. If people keep exceeding those limits, then the law will eventually be changed, meaning that all e-bikes will very likely require registration, insurance, a motorcycle riding license and a motorcycle crash helmet.
Incidentally, those fat tyres will be making unassisted pedalling much more tiring than riding on normal bicycle tyres. They will also make steering more physical. Fat tyres are really only an advantage when on soft or off-road surfaces.
Here's a interesting test see how it compares to a WW2 Wellbike which technically is its great grandfather or a equivalent 1980's moped.
I don’t think we should worry. Since COVID there’s a lot of legislation that is backlogged from the U.K. transport agency and Electric vehicle legislation that should cover all of these basic questions is still outstanding.
Reminds me Ian of living in Belgium in 1981 Mopeds were put into catagories. Class A,B,C meaning top speed of 25, 40 or 55 KMH. My stupid older brother bought a class A moped which was passed down to me when he went back to the UK. Imagine all your mates with class C mopeds and leaving you for dust. I even managed to fit a lawn mower carburetor thinking that would solve the restriction with no luck. Turns out if i turned the fuel tap off it would reach 45 KMH before running out of fuel.
At 110kg, 1.93m tall, over 60 years. I NEED more than 250W in certain circumstances.
Then you need to consider not just the torque of the Motor core, but the ratio of the built in motor gearbox and the gear cassette. (Some are changing that to have different top and bottom ratios for both better low speed starting torque and more relaxed pedal cadence when cruising)
Not to mention the weight of the bike itself, there are 250W bikes which weigh only 16-18kg, half the weight of this bike.
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I'd be "upset" if I bought a "250W" bike which suffered at the first sign of an upward slope when carrying me and maybe 20kg of shopping (one of the reasons I would buy one)
.
Arbitrary laws are often too simplistic.
I have a Wisper 806 bike which has. Throttle and can start on the throttle from standstill - it cuts out at 15.5 mph - it comes with an MVSA type approval certificate - which seems to say that having a throttle is not illegal as long as it only takes you to 15.5 mph. Other companies get round having to get type approval by giving caveats like “only to be used off road “.
Can you change the Speedo read out a mile an hour in the software ❓
Seeing you rode this it clearly cuts out when it should but is also able to move mass sich as ours along, myself i would block off the port for the throttle and hard wjre the connectors that disables the restrictions so there is no argument of the ability for it to be easily derestricted
I did not reconcile you in tum tail at first I thought it was one of my other chanel with a moped it does look good and a don't blame you for giving a freebie out
Its the same as these private electric scooters that are illegal to use unless on private land, with the land owners permission. When shops sell these scooters they have a disclaimer notice in the shop, explaining about not being used on public highways or areas. This covers the shop from being held to account for selling an illegal device if used on the road etc.
That sorta reminds me how electronic shops (man they were great, I'm sad they no longer exist) used to sell "Police/air band radio scanners" which you could buy, but were illegal to use for what they were sold as.
Also, hardware shops selling bongs, grinders, roach papers etc. for weed smokers is still a thing too!
I briefly had a hybrid mtb fitted with a very powerful 1500watt, 52 volt e-kit, very very illegal. I was getting average speeds of 18 - 19mph, top speed around 50mph - there was no attempt to restrict anything - it was literally a motorbike with a throttle.
I returned it back to the seller for a full refund when my bike tech gave me a very worrying rundown list of safety bodges to do with wheel alignment fittings, brakes, gears, suspension forks and other joyful discoveries that left unattended could kill me with ease!
As usual a fantastic and honest review, yes so many youtubers have been sent these things and using the power and success of youtube content makers and their hard work making their channels so well followed, asking to endorse a grey legal product is a little crafty of them... This is the only 'honest' review i have seen. many channels are full of praise for them, amazing what people will say endorsing products when given for free!! good on you Ian
Agreed. Honesty is priceless
Quote: The nominal power rating of ebike motors is one of the most common figures given by manufactures. The main reason for this is to confirm the motor is legal for you to ride in the UK without a licence, road tax and insurance. eBike motors in the UK must have a maximum nominal output of no more than 250 watts. The nominal power is calculated as an average over an hour of use. This means many ebike motors actually have much higher peak power outputs than 250 watts. They just wont produce outputs higher than 250 watts constantly.
They're regulated to 45 kph in the states.
strictly speaking if you think about it yes it can be derestricted but a car can be modified to make it faster. Also i can can also be DRIVEN in an unreasonable manner. So in a way it comes down to the person in control and how responsible they are.
“If I want to go quickly I will use a car” points at 2cv 😂
Be fair. We actually overtook a cyclist the other day! 😉
@@HubNut When they were still in production, Citroen did an advert for the 2CV that said "As many wheels as a Porsche, as many doors as a Rolls Royce, faster than a Ferrari". Further down the advert it said "A Citroen 2CV going flat out at 71.5mph can easily overtake a Ferrari Dino doing 65."
well said 👍👍👍
Having seen some ads and read a few spec's they're probably aimed at the
American market so they're not really legal here, but would probably be ripe
for the derestriction market here if they are supplied in restricted form.
Fascinating.
In NZ Ebikes max power is 300w, above that is illegal on our roads, we have many cycleways now, apparently cycles are not allowed to exceed the sign posted speed limit on the road, many users here rider light weight racing bikes they get along surprisingly quick!!
The L1e-a classification, 251w -1000w, with or without throttle control, is legal in some European countries (notably Belgium) without a licence (epac regulations) or registration. However in the UK they are classified as electric motorcycles (moped) and required registration a CBT and a full motorcycle crash helmet. You are risking your driving licence if the police check on you.
Well done for addressing that Ian, my only concern with my comments was that you would be risking your licence by riding it. As someone mentioned it would be interesting to see a 250W bike tackling that hill. I might try it with mine when I'm next down there, I walked that road some time ago, so I know what it's like.
How can you risk your licence when you don't need a licence?
@@cornishhh Because by riding an illegal bike, which is therefore classified in the eyes of the law as a motorbike, you commit sufficient road traffic offences to accrue 12 points and lose your licence. Simple really!
@@ChrisBrown-jh2mo So if you have a licence you can get points on it but if you don't obviously you can't?
@@cornishhh You will get the fines for the offences, and any points will be applied to a dummy licence created by the DVLA, so should you get a licence in the future you will start off with those points, and a ban if applicable. END OF CONVERSATION!
How many watts does it use in high setting, at full speed, on the flat?
There seems no restriction on the power, it's just limiting itself by speed, in which case it would inevitably be limiting power much more when on the flat.
another great video has always Ian and miss hubnut and hublets and hubmutts 👍
I wouldn't worry. Here in London all electric scooters are illegal, except in a couple of boroughs and then only if they are hired from a govt preferred company, but there are thousands of them on the road and the Police ignore them. As for the e-bikes, I was doing 30 last night and one of them flashed past me and the Police car in front. Nothing happened.
My Bosch cx motor is UK legal at 250 watts but peaks at about 750watt and about 80 newton meters of torque thankfully you can’t easily tamper with. At the end of the day just enjoy it and stay within the law.
You can tamper with it very easily, a £150 speedbox is all you need. Then you can get it up to 28mph like they're designed for.
@@JudeTheCZcamsPoopersubscribe yes but that's currently illegal personally I like the legal way my Bosch CX motor works more natural feel I generally use eco and tour modes very rare will I use turbo or sport and I live in a hilly area
@@rhysstatham7407 it's alright if you are happy with 15mph, same motors in America let you pedal along at 28mph all day long which is a much more appropriate speed. My mate had a speed box kit put onto his Bosch performance line and it's significantly better now.
I have recently seen other youtube videos about this bike, and by far yours is the best review. Keep the good work going Ian.
In Canada, we have a mix of federal and provincial legislation covering e-bikes. Both levels of government agree on a 500W limit, and my provincial government also limits speed to 32km/h (20mph) and specifies that it must be possible to pedal like on a regular bicycle. You must also be 18 years old and wearing an approved bicycle helmet is mandatory. I still regularly see 750W and even 1000W models that can easily be derestricted through the onboard computer. For the time being at least, no one seems to care. I have not derestricted my own Lankeleisi (a rebranded Cyrusher), because, honestly, even 30km/h is already too fast on bicycle paths.
Get a DC clamp meter on the power cables, preferably with it on a turbo trainer. When are Big Clive and John Ward getting their China Export?
Does this use cadance or torque sensor??? They failed to mention that on thier website...
I have no idea. It certainly takes a bit of pedal pushing before the motor kicks in.
Do you think it would be dangerous to now charge a Samsung 36V 21Ah ebike Li-ion battery for my ebike seeing that it hasn't been charged at all for about 18 months?
It shouldn't be dangerous. Charge to 100%, ride vigorously and charge back to 80-100 to give the internal electronic bits a chance to "balance" the individual cells in the battery.
Are you going to Radwood in September?
Not 100% sure yet
My god....those sandels!!!!! The Kugoo Kirin that i have does 32mph out of the box. Its mental! It does get me out and about though which is good for the old mental health.
I'm not sure we can blame the manufacturer for making it easy to modify, you could remove most of the body pannles on your 2cv in about 20 mins and go driving about in it, would it be legal? I'm guessing not, but that would be your fault as the driver.
My E-bike here in the Netherlands also stops supporting when I reach 25KM/H.
Will it fold up to go on the train?
The hand throttle, as I understand it, to be legal, must cut off at 5 km/h, or 3.5moh. (Class 2 ebike rules)
The issue here seems to be a lack of regulation. Trading standards has been essentially gutted by austerity cuts and so there's no-one to enforce rules by testing of merchandise. If these rules are to be enforced we need to fund the authorities whose role it is to do that properly.
These are just the new 50cc mopeds of today. Pretty much everyone I knew who had one pulled the exhaust restricter out!
Pretty much, these can do 30mph I'd say they feel almost identical to the power of a 50cc moped, maybe a little faster to get to top speed than an engine.
I was around at the time of unrestricted '16er' mopeds too ( I had an SS50). The difference here though is we all had a licence (which could be endorsed), insurance (which would cost more with endorsements) and we had to wear helmets to avoid further fines and endorsements. The mopeds also had reg plates which could be traced to the owner.
All this meant, even at 16, we had to exercise a modicum of caution, unlike the lads on derestricted E-bikes.
Getting one of these, it will be removing the restriction before I even ride it for the first time lol
To all those curious about what 250w continuous power means - you can read the UK regulations ans amendments and this is what it says “Regulation (EU) No 168/2013 defines “maximum continuous rated power” as the maximum thirty minutes power at the output shaft of an electric engine as set out in United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) regulation No 85.”. The main regulation which is most important is the speed restriction, and the amendment to the power reg nicely allows for the very real possibility that the rider will encounter hills but still not produce dangerous speed.
Thanks for that! Well, I'd suggest it's never going to pull 600w uphill for 30 minutes as the battery would likely go flat beforehand...
Link for those who want to see for themselves (this is to amendment 2 of the main regulation) - www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/regulation/2/made
They are even sold with throttles other bands which is sort of legal i think up to 3.5mph or something. My mums i believe can be fully throttle assistance but is limited and ia prettt guttless so assume its at the 250w. I believe if the bike is built before 2016 the throttle law doesnt apply and thats hard to prove. On the mopes side with your example i think then only doing 30 is extremely dangerous and far safer unrestricted. I bought a brand new moped few years back rode it the 20 miles home restricted and i was overtaken by lorries on blind bends multiple times where as derestricted you can keep up with traffic.
you are forgetting that these bikes are mass produced to be sold world wide, different areas have different rules, look at EU and USA regulations. From a production cost viewpoint its cheaper to make 1 unit that meets highest requirement and fit limiters later than make models for each specific market. Also for electric motor efficiency its better to have a 1Kw motor running at 250w than a 250w motor running at constant peak therefore they can use small batteries for same range and batteries are the most expensive part.
In fact look at website and go to US page to see performance without UK limiting kit. Do 30 seconds of research before you criticise.
The very reason that these type of bikes (big massive chunky tyred Chinese variants) are so popular with delivery riders is because they have massively powerful motors that can easily be derestricted and hand throttles fitted.
Hmm. How would you test it's only 250w? Could compare riding to a known output bike I s'pose. I find it's plenty plus 15.5 is enough. It's called 'pedal assist' after all.If I may suggest wearing cycling mits/gloves Ian. If you do come a cropper it's your hands that always cop it!
Interesting video video Ian 🚗🚙🚙🚘👍👍👍👏👏👏👏🤣
I get where you're coming from regarding grey areas, I ride a 29" unicycle and you can't ride them on the road and you can't ride them them on pavements.
Fortunately I live in an area (Llanelli) where there is an abundance of cycle paths.
Fair video and good points. Now I'm off to an appointment in my 360hp SUV through the city, 50kmh limit but it can do ~200kmh if I want. Not just ebike users that can break the law with little effort.
I think as long as you don’t de-restrict it, or fit the thumb throttle, if you ever get stopped by the Police, I can’t see you having a problem. The motor is stamped at 250w rating, and it can be tested to see if it’s speed is limited.
You can get killed by an E-Scooter or E Bike at just 20mph. I've course i'd have one of the 2 but wouldn't de restrict it and would ride it very sensibly. Speed and power isn't everything.
Dear Reader,
I find it 'a service' to me as a viewer, that Mr. HubNut takes all the effort to inform me about this bike, and electric bikes in general.
Until now I don't work with the police, the CIA, MI5 or what have you? So why should I be playing the role of plaster saint, and not just amuse myself with the adventures of a man who is kind enough to share some of his adventures?
Mr. HubNut is more than capable to make his own consideration between just enjoying the adventure and the law.
And I? I'm happy to just watch.
With Kind Regards,
Michel F. van den Brun
Pedestrian with a mandatory pedal bike, being a Dutch citizen.
Technically, what you're trying to define is *available power*.
EN15194 is the relevant regulation. Throttle only is only legal up to 4mph. Electric assist whilst pedalling is legal up to 15.5mph. Watch Green Mopeds’ Eskuta SX250 review.
My bike is 750watt 1450max, But I"m fully insured and have 35 years of motorcycle experience .
I don't see a grey area here. We already have buses and lorries fitted with speed limiters. Most of them have the power to easily do 90 mph if the limiter is disabled, but you are not committing an offence by driving them unless you deliberately bypass the limiter. Similarly with this bike, you cannot be committing an offence if you have the limiter functioning. Anyone who does bypass the limiter is committing an offence, and you may well argue that the manufacturers are morally reprehensible for making it easy to do, when they know that loads of stupid and/or immature people will do it. Really there needs to be some legislation which prohibits the sale of bikes which can be easily tweaked, and there should be crippling fines for non-compliance, but as it's perfectly legal to ride these things at suicidal speed on private land, can we stop people doing this?
hi mr hubnut can u do a video on thoughts of the new 20mph limit in wales and the removal of the 30 and 20 mph signs that coming in september
I would, but I'm not all that fussed to be honest. Will judge more once they're implemented.
@@HubNut yea its not so much the 20mph limit i think is the issue its more the removal of the signs. the only way u know if its 20mph or not is if street lights are less then 200 yards apart this dont just apple to towns/villiages
Suppose you had a car for track days--let's say, a Catterick 6 1/2. Bits necessary for road legality are easily detachable, so you can run it on the track with no headlights or even windscreen wipers (!). If you drive it in that state on the road, you'd assume that the responsibility would be on the driver, not the manufacturers.
If the e-bike is a bit too easy to modify into an illegal state, that would seem to be something that the regulators should attend to, not a CZcamsr who is neither showing how to do the mods, nor encouraging them.
I am, of course, not a lawyer, nor have I even had one moment of passion with one.
I used to own (until someone stole it from a locked garage) a Cyclotricity Stealth 1000W e-bike. Unrestricted it would do about 35-40 mph. Great fun when you're on it, but complete lunacy and extremely dangerous for others. I even set off a speed camera going into town.
In Australia any power assistance greater than 300watts on a bicycle is illegal for public use, but there's no real way to police it, a 300watt motor pretty much looks like a 3kw one, & many of these motors will tolerate a 5x output increase with over-volting, at least for a short time.
The way most people use e-bikes/petrol mopeds(ie: in the real sense, not a motorscooter) in Aus defeats the purpose of it even being a bicycle, they are mostly used by people who have lost their licence & they never actually pedal them. I'm of the opinion that a motor on a bicycle should be for assistance only & should have some kind of ECU so it only works when needed & only supplies proportional assistance.
250 watts for a cargo / utility bike is pretty low if your hauling stuff
Depends on your geography. My place of work has an urban arrow style bakfiets with the largest size bin on it (max load 150kg) and 250w is just fine and allows me to keep the speed between 23 and 25km/h even up a bridge.
On welsh hills, i think it might not be enough, but for most cities it will be plenty.
With that thing, you do deplete batteries VERY quickly at max assistance (needed because of the huge brick of a bin) and a headwind.
It really is a murky area, and ebike makers exploit that fact. You can manipulate the amps, ohms, watts and kilowatt hours (battery capacity) to say anything you want. What they don't often tell you is how much torque these motors make. I have seen ebikes that are making 80nm of torque, but still only 250 watts, it's all about how you control the flow of electrons.
My 2p-worth: I'm confident that you won't find any electric bikes with a peak power output of 250W, regardless of manufacturer. They'll all be higher, and they'll all be restricted using a combination of hardware and software. Running a motor at its peak rating is a really good way to kill it prematurely! Also, in the global markets you need to be able to cater to multiple legislative restrictions (looking at you, USA, with your multiple kilowatt death scooters) so it makes more sense to have hardware as common as possible. To be fair, there's e-bikes that are much easier to derestrict as well. Including the throttle in the box though, that's kinda asking for it to be diddled with...
@@retiredbore378 my point is that by including the throttle in the box makes it more tempting to install than if it were a separate purchase. But yeah, the legislation in this country is decades out of date
But where can you legally use that throttle? Only on private land - that does not include bridleways or cycle paths. So there aren't a great many places you can legally use it.
In various parts of the US, you can use the throttle as an ebike. So long as the throttle doesn't propel me more than 20mph, it counts as a proper bicycle in my state. If it propels me faster than 20mph but less than 30mph, I can just call it a moped, and I have to get a $15 registration sticker every three years (and it isn't allowed on bicycle paths). If it goes faster than 30mph, I have to treat it as a full on motorcycle and get a special license and insurance.
So if anyone finds that their e-bike is too fast for their country's laws, you can always send it to me. :)
I also should point out it would require better lighting if it is going to be registered as a motorcycle.
I think use on private land is only legal with the land owners permission ... I suspect that is unlikely!
Thanks for calling this out. The 2015 ammendment didn't do enough to catch up with technology!
According to Article 3, paragraph 35 of Regulation (EU) No 168/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council (this is referenced by the EAPC regulations (The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (Amendment) Regulations 2015 at www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/regulation/2/made) as defining the continuous max power:
‘maximum continuous rated power’ means the maximum thirty minutes power at the output shaft of an electric engine as set out in UNECE regulation No 85;
From www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2013/168/article/3
The throttle and de-restriction options are for off road usage only which is perfectly legal ..... common sense has to be applied to these options just like every vehicle on the road is capable of speeds greater than the speed limits but our own common sense is expected to keep us legal ...... noone critises car manufacturers that produce cars than go faster than 70 mph .... interesting video with good well made points.
If you're ebike was purchased before 2016 you do not need to have peddle assist and can have a hand throttle. The same law applies 250 watts and15.5 mph
Strange rules, here in New Zealand 300w max, after that you require a motorcycle licence, speed limits for E-bikes and non-powered cycles are exactly the same as for all motor vehicles.