Advanced Fouetté or Whip Shots in Super Slow Motion
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- Dr. Dave shows and discusses impressive fouetté or whip shots used to avoid double hits when there is a small gap between the CB and OB. The shots were executed by Florian “Venom” Kohler and recorded in super slow motion by Pubo Huang. Many of the shots involve secondary contact with the shaft but would be very difficult to call as fouls.
Contents:
0:00 - Intro
0:28 - definition and examples
1:57 - advanced draw fouetté
---- 3:12 - super slow motion
7:28 - advanced follow fouetté
---- 8:10 - super slow motion
9:37 - Wrap Up
Supporting Resources:
- “Venom Shots in Super Slow Motion” playlist: • Venom Shots is Super S...
- “10 Useful Ways to AVOID A DOUBLE HIT Foul” video: • 10 Useful Ways to AVOI...
- how to detect and avoid a double hit: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/f...
- fouetté or whip shot resource page:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/f...
- "Pool Evolution" T-shirt: drdavebilliardtshirts.com/pro...
- "Got English" T-shirt: drdavebilliardtshirts.com/pro...
- Venom CZcams Channel: / @venomtrickshotsofficial
- Pubo CZcams Channel: / @puboh
Subscribe to Dr. Dave's CZcams Channel:
czcams.com/users/DrDaveBilliar...
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Good Luck With Your Game!!! - Sport
*Contents:*
0:00 - Intro
0:28 - definition and examples
1:57 - advanced draw fouetté
---- 3:12 - super slow motion
7:28 - advanced follow fouetté
---- 8:10 - super slow motion
9:37 - Wrap Up
*Supporting Resources:*
- “Venom Shots in Super Slow Motion” playlist: czcams.com/play/PLH9d4KFY28XvjfavLkmw8nIcWOiDH2GYc.html
- “10 Useful Ways to AVOID A DOUBLE HIT Foul” video: czcams.com/video/9RA9DZur99g/video.html
- how to detect and avoid a double hit: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
- fouetté or whip shot resource page:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/whip/
- "Pool Evolution" T-shirt: drdavebilliardtshirts.com/product-category/general/pool-player-evolution/
- "Got English" T-shirt: drdavebilliardtshirts.com/product-category/humor/got-english/
- Venom CZcams Channel: www.youtube.com/@VenomTrickshotsOfficial
- Pubo CZcams Channel: www.youtube.com/@puboh
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's CZcams Channel:*
czcams.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
just an fyi, it's not pronounced fwah tay, it's foo eh tay
if it was fwah tay it would be spelled foitté
@@kameronpeterson3601 Thanks for the info.
Maybe approaching the shot away from the rail, the final direction of the cue ball would be more of a tell. Also, trapping the cue ball between the rail and the cue stick could blur the results
Only last week did I realize I've been using a whip cue for everyshot.
Whip it Good!
Get a new cue shake them choose the one that is the most tight feeling . Less whip more control .
love your videos Dr. Dave thank you for helping my game and the sport of pool advance as a whole!
I'm glad to hear it. You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
This one gonna be hard to explain in a league match. Heck, even unintentional miscue takes a lot of arguing with people that are quick to call a foul on you.
Agreed, and understood.
@@DrDaveBilliards There is a difference between reality and some local pool league. There isn't going to be trained refs around, so any shot that might be a foul will just be ruled out. That's where these stupid rules about frozen balls come from. Makes it simple for non-experienced people to judge a shot with very basic and clear rules. ( even if its wrong... )
@@chumly8596 Frozen-CB shots are not a problem:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/
What gives beginner players trouble is detecting and avoiding double hit fouls. If they watched the videos here, it would be much easier:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
Yes! Thank you. I don't know if I should wait for all of the rest so I can binge watch or watch each one. I am starved for more lol. Great videos.
You're welcome. Watch each one as they come out, and then binge watch them all again when the whole series is available. Problem solved. :)
Worth the wait for sure!!
I'm glad to here it.
Great video! A friend of mine taught me the fouetté. I look forward to showing him this video. Thanks!
Thanks. I hope your friend likes it.
Very cool, thanks Dr Dave.
Thank you, and you're welcome. I aim to swerve (and to whip). :)
Reading that title in the 1700s would have a completely different meaning!
Your videos are so good! I learn so much! :D Thank you!
Thanks. I'm glad to hear it. You're welcome.
Great work you guys.
No Kidding.
Venom you are a true artist.
Keith
From me and Florian: Thanks!
Dr. Cue just showed me one of these last night. Such an amazing shot
It’s more of a “trick shot” than a useful tool in a game situation, but still fun.
Great video!!! This makes me want to attempt these shots!!!
Thanks! Go for it.
😮. Masterful as always
Thank you!
@@DrDaveBilliards
Thanks for the info on the camera.
Really awesome.
24.000 FPS
DARN NICE
Amazing work
Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.
Nasty!
As a wise man once said.... "SCIENCE RULES!!!" 😁. Thanks for the facts Dr. Dave!
You’re welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
I still like Bob Jewett's idea of a rule to require shooting away from a ball that is frozen or very close to the cue ball.
I can't imagine Bob ever saying anything like that. It is easy to detect a double hit per the the info and demos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
Terrible idea. First of all if it’s actually frozen, you can shoot straight into it and follow the object ball. That is NOT a a foul. Second of all, why limit good players from being able to hit straight at an object ball with a small gap? If they can do it without fouling, that’s fair play. If you can’t do it, then you are the type of player who should shoot away. A foul is a foul is a foul. If you don’t foul then it’s a legal shot.
Agreed. If the balls are frozen, you are allowed to hit into the CB per the info and demos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/
I also agree that good players should not be penalized by rules that make no sense.
@@DrDaveBilliards Is it safe to assume that this shot is not or barely possible with low deflection carbon fibre cue?
@@firstlast9337 … easier with most maple LD shafts, but more difficult with most CF shafts. It helps if the shaft is whippy (not stiff).
Amazing discoveries 👍👍👍
I'm glad you think so.
Interesting shot. It looks like one that would be well nigh impossible to judge fairness on, regularly, which is definitely 'advantage shooter'.
Any shooter who can pull this off in a game situation deserves the benefit of the doubt.
i think the unintended education here was the contact point of the cue, always about a cue tip or more off the cloth. I thought pros went lower, but I see now that, it's more about the stroke, etc.
Nice shooting;)
Venom practices these shots a lot.
There was a shot in the Hustler where Fast Eddie(21:50 called the 2ball) hit through two balls to hit a third ball with his tip as the cue ball and the other two balls cleared. Fats just said "Nice Shot Eddie" and I think Eddie went on and said his I have a hunch line. That shot I'm pretty sure was a foul. No one watching would know unless they played at a high level for the time. That Eckect shot looks real close from the front but if you say it's good I believe you. Me personally I would have jacked up a little more with a slight off the center line he used. Some people just like to argue the knowledge they think they know. The little misses lost a game when an opponent shot the 8 ball in the corner off her object ball. All balls were on the same side of the table long ways about 1 1/2 diamods from the long rail on the right from the head string. Her ball was near the long rail the 8ball was further off the long rail and closer to the pocket(about a ball and a half) and would be cutting it toward the rail(long rail) into the corner. The cue ball hit her object ball first then the 8ball. I said it was a bad hit cause her ball was infront of the 8ball and he's shooting from same side as her object ball it's impossible for the cue ball to her object ball. Her ball should not have moved at all. They wouldn't let me call a foul and I'm her coach. I just shook my head and the person who's on our team is our league rep. She said we didn't have someone watch. I said I'm a 7 and if I was playing I would call it a foul the object ball should not have moved period. I saw how the balls layed there was no need to have someone watch the hit cause it would be a obvious(kinda sharking to if I had called a watch) foul.but because she's a 4 you're telling her she's not allowed to ask her opponent? It's a clear rule she can ask and I know I was right. Time to find a new team.
FYI, here's a demonstration of the shot from "The Hustler:"
czcams.com/video/ve7qeEhWGMo/video.html
@@DrDaveBilliards Very cool I've seen a lot of your vids but not that one. It's set up pretty close, exchange the 9 and the three and the three with a 2 ball.....I learned about that almost thirty years ago. Glad pool is getting popular again and you're helping sir!
FYI, I have a lot more like this here, especially in the "shots from pool movies" section:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/trick-shot/
Enjoy!
At the 8-minute mark., It is totally awesome with the super slow motion.
How many frames per second were you filming that at ?
I know it's a darn good camera whatever it is.
Keith
The far rate was 24,000 FPS.
@@DrDaveBilliards WOW AMAZING.
AWESOME STUFF DAVE.
KEEP UP THE COOL STUFF
KEITH
It’s crazy how good his stroke is.
Agreed, especially when you see it live and up close.
Check out Semih Sayginer if you wanna see absolutely MASSIVE stroke. Blows Florian out of the water.
I love watching Semih videos. Do you have an example of a Semih fouette shot? If so, please post a link or let me know how to find it.
@@DrDaveBilliards czcams.com/video/rHmtvZAXOUY/video.html
This whole video here is amazing. At the 11 minute mark however are back to back great foutte shots. He does quite a few more throughout the video.
@@nahog99 Thanks for the link. I've seen that before, but I enjoyed it again, especially the fouette shots!
Fascinating but I'm calling foul 😂 on the follow whip shot. I watched this 20 times at .25 speed. Right at 8:48 and 8:49 it sure looks like secondary contact from shaft on the cue ball. Enough where the cue ball deflected oh so slighty to the viewers right. Don't argue. I'm taking ball in hand. 😂
If you take ball in hand, I will call a foul on you. So there. :)
it's a clear double hit.
there are different rules in different cue sports in relation to hitting away from object balls that are very close - say, 5mm or less.
to me, regardless of the rule set, it's good etiquette to only hit the edge of an object ball, rather than ploughing into the bloody thing - which IMO is almost always a foul regardless of the rule set
@haydenwalton2766 Honesty, if I'm playing a guy and he makes that shot, I'm gonna jump out of my chair and high 5 him for such a great great shot. Was it a foul? Yeah, maybe, but in the real world, no one is gonna call foul because it wasn't so blatantly obvious. And that's the rule anyway. Not obvious, no foul.
Most rule sets (WPA, CSI, VNEA, etc.) have no special rule for when the gap is small. A double hit is a double hit, regardless of the angle of the hit.
@@DrDaveBilliards I'm talking about snooker and different forms of english 8 ball.
there's more to cue sports than american pool dave '-)
furthermore, there are double hits and push shots - different things
On the first follow shot the cue ball barely jumps compared to the later ones, suggesting the shaft trapped it similar to how it trapped the cue ball to the rail on the draw shots.
That is possible, but not conclusive from the video.
at 2:30, do you mean the right spin helps keep the cue ball hugging the rail or the backspin? Because if the CB only has backspin, then after any cushion contact (at an angle), the CB will bounce off. Thanks for clarifying!
The backspin returns the CB toward the rail if the hit on the OB sends it away from the rail. And if the CB still has backspin when it hits the cushion, it will return toward the rail again.
@@DrDaveBilliards got it!
I have improved from watching your videos
I'm glad to hear it.
Saludos desde Ecuador exsetente 👍
Greetings from the US.
Slow mo reveals: very cool draw shot but clearly a foul
It is definitely possible to get a clean draw fouette shot. But as shown in super slow motion, even the shots that look good and would not be called fouls live (or with regular video replay) often do involve glancing secondary contact.
The 4:37 shot is clean imo and I don't think there was any scoop or secondary contact...
That one is tough to call, but I agree with you that a foul should probably not be called on that shot.
When you showed the shot from the front, it was hard to see if there was clearance because of the flexing action of the shaft. You might try doing a high speed shot from the side. That way, you'd be able to see the air gap without the flex getting in the way.
Believe me. We tried every possible angle to get the best view. Some of the views are better than others. There are limitations based on the size of the camera and with the shooter, cue, balls, and rails being in the way.
I think the proper execution of a shot like that would be starting left, then going right, swiping across so that the cue isn't going to rebound back towards the cue ball so in order to execute this without any foul, you have to chicken wing the contact which would make it very difficult to have it be consistent. pulling to your side instead of to your chest like a standard shot.
That could make the shot work better, but it would also make the shot much tougher.
Dave is this type of shot possible with carbon fiber bc u say the shaft flexes a lot in this video and carbon fiber does really flex that much
Typical CF shafts do not work well for a shot like this. They are stiff, so they don’t flex as much and they spring back quicker.
Is the conclusion that for whip shots you cannot call a foul unless it is obvious? Should the same conclusion be used for double hits? If forward motion is not present then a foul cannot be called on cue ball and another ball that are close to each other?
That is correct. A foul cannot be called unless the foul is visually obvious (for example, based on the motion of the CB). FYI, lots of info and examples for how to both detect and avoid double hits can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
I wonder how low deflection shafts factor into this? And for my 2 cents they all still looked like fouls to me. I can imagine how it looked legal until I saw them in slowmo.
The is "whippy," but many (but not all) LD shafts are whippy. Some carbon-fiber LD shafts are not whippy.
Excellent video but I was hoping the video would explain or teach us how to play the shot rather than just showing us the shot. Also, check out the stroke category in the Artistic pool manual by WPA for more real-life situations of those shots.
Lots of jump shot technique advice can be found in the videos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/jump/technique/
and here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/jump/highly-elevated/
Enjoy!
@@DrDaveBilliards Jump Shots and Fouette shots are entirely different. I just thought that since no videos on the internet teach you how to play a Fouette shot. You would be the one to make one.
Sorry about that. I got confused with the jump shot video I posted right after this one. The closest thing I have to a tutorial is here:
billiards.colostate.edu/normal-video/nv-b-52/
To me, the first shot looks like a push shot. All seem to be touching at the same time. And a pro ref is going to say the same thing
I do not see a double hit (secondary contact), and I do not see the motion of the CB being altered. Granted, the video quality could be better (like later in the video), and the camera angle could be better (like later in the video), and the background and lighting could be better, but I certainly do not see any clear evidence for a foul. I don't think an experienced and knowledgeable ref would call a foul on this shot, even with the super-slow-motion instant replay.
@@DrDaveBilliards it's kind of a wishy washy situation. I guess its up to which side of the bed the ref woke up on😂😂😂 another great vid from DrDave!
The second angle shows a clear double hit. I'm surprised it was selected as an example
@@JaYEBuLL thats what I thought as well
@@JaYEBuLL Many of the examples in the video clearly show secondary contact, but a foul can be called only if there is clear visual evidence of a foul. If the CB obscures the view of the shaft, and the CB’s motion is not clearly altered, there is no clear evidence of a foul.
Seems like these are much more dependent on an open bridge also?
An open bridge is not necessary, but it does help with the follow shot.
Thanks for the video. It would be interesting to see if you or Florian could get that first fouette draw shot to work with a phenolic break cue.
... probably not. A break cue is much too stiff (not whippy enough).
Seems to me like you made that draw shot harder for Florian by placing it on that side of the table. A lefty movement from that side would seem to be able to avoid those slight double hits, since the shaft would move more to the right. As a lefty, this came to my mind immediately, but maybe I'm completely wrong :D
That might be true for a swooping stroke, but Florian's stroke was fairly straight. That side of the table was also the best for filming purposes.
In slo-mo try so look like the side of the cue hits to me. Imagine me trying convince the other team this wasn’t a foul on league night 😂
You don’t need to convince them it is not a foul. They need to convince you that it is a foul. Good luck to them, because they will need it.
@@DrDaveBilliards That would just devolve into a yelling match with some of these guys
can you do supercslow mo shots with different shafts and capture cue ball deflection behavior :)
Lots of tests and results for CB deflection from various shafts can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/published-data/
You don’t need slow motion for that.
Although, I have some super slow motion videos showing how the typical shafts flex and vibrate during and after large tip-offset hits here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/miscue/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/vibration/
Maybe already asked, but is this shot possible at all with carbon fiber?
Yes, but secondary contact is much more likely with the stiffer shaft.
soooo with carbon fiber this isnt possible? since it doesnt deflect this much or whip as much
A carbon fiber shaft could be made to be whippy, but the ones I have used are fairly stiff, making this sort of shot much more difficult.
Hello Dr. Dave, It's me again... My question is not so much on the game of billiards, which I love, but more on education. I have finished my first semester with a 4.0 GPA, Phi Theta Kappa... Unofficial president this fall, as well as being given the award for outstanding new freshman 2023. I will not beat around the bush, I am a first generation student who comes from low income. I would like the privilege to attend CSU because I am a Colorado native and It has always been my dream. I would also love to attend CSU because of their billiards program. I have many obstacles facing me and I am asking for help or advice. Unfortunately, my college is aware of my talents but does not consider it a sport, nor due most..... Dr. Dave I would like your advice on what to do.
I retired from CSU several years ago. They do not have a billiards program, but it is an excellent school. And as you probably already know, Fort Collins is a great town. Good luck with your studies!
cue ball hits the shaft. clearly.
This is clear only with the shots where the CB's motion is clearly altered. With the limited camera views available, you cannot actual "see" shaft contact (or clearance) on most (or any) of the shots.
The last shot looks like a double hit no?
The camera view is not perfect, and it might look like the shaft slaps down on the CB, but there was clearance.
Florian posted this a while back and we had a spirited debate about whether it was legal or not - it appears in his old video that the cue goes forward past the tangent line - it seems different than what is posted above where the ball in fact does not go forward at all.
czcams.com/video/xjXQgk94320/video.html&lc=Ugy4OVupipxmPWoNrZl4AaABAg.9fl_zVXpElw9flqWcWWbeI
your commentary about this in slow motion essentially says the other one was probably a double hit "it does not go forward very much, if there were a double hit it would". The old post the cue goes roughly an entire cue ball forward first.
I think the shot in the video you linked above is a foul. The CB should not go forward that much with a clean hit. It would still be tough to call, though, without super-slow-motion instant replay.
PUBO!!! 🤣
It's not something you want to say to the wrong people.
I wasn't aware of the "alternative meanings" of the name. I'll need to ask Pubo if he knows about this. He is Chinese.
@@DrDaveBilliards I'm not making fun of the guy but can't help find it funny.
@@cynot71 Many names probably have unexpected meanings in some languages. I'm sure he will find it funny too.
I know it now haha! Urban dictionary said it originiated from Hokkien, and I speak Hokkien myself but I don't recall any word that has similar sounds like "PUBO". Learned something everyday!
You need a faster camera, this footage is still too fast to see anything clearly.
I think the camera is plenty fast enough. The difficult part is getting the perfect view. We tried really hard, but we still didn't get the perfect look.
That first shot looks like a foul to me.
It is impossible to tell from the camera angle, with the CB obscuring the view of the shaft, but there is certainly no clear evidence of a foul.
Foul or no foul...
Do this 2 Times in a tournament and your tip flies away from table 1 to table 16 🤣
Then u have other problems than the foul question 😭
Good point. Fortunately, this type of shot pretty much never comes up in a real match situation. It is more of a trick, proposition, or challenge shot.
most of the shots were a foul...as shown by the super sl0-mo...whether you can actually call it in real time or not..and that's from a pro. the series of the last shots look like a foul to me when the cue whips back towards the cue. the initial shot was clean, but when the cue whips back from whipping away, it looks like it hits the cue. just mho
Yep. Tough to call, but often a foul.
You can see it double hit on the second close up slow mo vid?....its pretty obvious....🤔
Can you reply with the MM:SS info so I will know exactly which shot you are referring to? As mentioned in the video, many of the shots in the video are fouls, as judged in the super-slow-motion replays of the shots.
1:07. One minute 7 seconds into video.
@@darrenhutton4323 Sorry, but I do not see a double hit, and I do not see the motion of the CB being altered. Granted, the video quality could be better (like later in the video), and the camera angle could be better (like later in the video), and the background and lighting could be better, but I certainly don't see any clear evidence for a foul at 1:07.
@@DrDaveBilliards In that clip the shaft of the cue is touching the ball. Surely this can't be legal?
I don't think the camera angle and video quality are good enough to see this clearly enough to to call a foul (even if it is touching, which is uncertain). But you are correct that if the shaft did touch the CB, the shot would be a foul.
good luck not having a ref call that a foul anyway. Sure its a great shot, but if the ref or opposing player does not understand the shot, it will be called a foul all day long.
I disagree. Any knowledgeable and experienced ref would call the shot good in real time (with no slomo replay) because the motion of the CB is consistent with a good hit.
@DrDaveBilliards I agree with that too, but I understand the shot. The problem is the shot is uncommon and I would bet money on the side that a ref who has not seen that shot despite the clear motion of the cue ball, would nonetheless call it a foul.
I could be dead wrong. In my experience, I have not seen this shot attempted in league play anyhow.
@@firstlast9337 The shot is definitely rare and used mostly only in artistic billiards competitions or exhibitions.