Are Piston Coatings Worth Having AND Can Coatings Save Your Engine? [TECH TALK]
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- čas přidán 8. 03. 2020
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Are piston coatings going to save you from a bad tune, and if not, what’s the point? MAHLE Motorsports engineer Eric Grilliot answers these questions and more during a Performance Racing Industry Trade Show visit.
Discussed are how different coatings can look identical to the naked eye but will often have different purposes and intents between manufacturers and also locations on the piston. Top Fuel piston coating vs OEM vs racing and even street applications are touched on along with why different areas of the piston might be focused on, or in the case of Top Fuel Drag Racing why it is beneficial to simply coat the entire piston.
MAHLE prefer a hard-anodized coating over Nickel Plating, and interesting the method and thickness is the same regardless of the application, it is more the locations where the coating is placed that become important particularly when it comes to managing heat in a modern piston design which seels the rings much closer to the crown.
The 3 main areas pistons are coated are the crown, ring groove and the piston skirt, and Eric explains what the coatings specifically help with in relation to the ring groove and skirt, including in relation to oil film. Machining requirements are also covered and interestingly in the case of MAHLE pistons there are no extra calculations required, the specs that come with the piston off the shelf are what the machinist should work too as the coating is accounted for in the original piston design rather than an afterthought.
There are many more topics packed into this interview including how piston coatings are not black magic that will save you from a bad tune but how they will buy your engine a little more time, how the heat management properties can give you a slightly bigger tuning window and why that doesn’t also translate to tighter tolerances. Micro welding is also explained along with the damage it can cause to your bores and if the coating should last the life of the piston.
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#highperformanceacademy #learntotune #mahlemotorsports #mahle #pri #myprishow #pistons #pistoncoating #performancepistons #topfuel #motorsports #plating #tuning #efituning - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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I'm constantly impressed by just how good of an interviewer Andre is. I can't think of anyone else that can hold their own when talking to so many experts across the field.
It's a skill he's certainly got dialled in now eh, not that he was ever bad at it haha He'll appreciate your comment too, will make sure he sees it. Thanks for the support - Taz.
Im not a tuner but I love this channel.
The Anti-friction coatings are similar to normal paints, but instead of color pigments they contain solid lubricants such as MoS2 & Graphite etc. These solids are mixed with binders and solvents. Binders help them adhere to the machine component's surface, while thinning solvent eases the process of coating. After coating, these parts are heat treated and the solvent evaporates, you are left with a fine layer of solid lubricants. Graphite and MoS2 have laminar layered structures which help them move external forces with ease.
Another informed interview - and that chap slinking away around 9:50 made me smile.
hahaha I missed that one! We should have a montage of camera shocked people one day, there are some great ones =D - Taz.
Mass is the most important aspect of heat distribution. Ceramic coating piston tops is an excellent method of protecting the piston from heat soak. However! That heat is going to go somewhere. Typically into the combustion chamber and the exhaust valve. If you’re going to ceramic coat a piston, you better coat your exhaust valves.
Eric is surely a good engineer and he knows a whole lot about their products. Thank you Andre for bringing your A game interviewing skills so we all could learn a little bit more :-)
Andre is the best interviewer ever when it comes to automotive products, he knows all the right questions to ask…
Fantastic questions! Great interview!
Alot of times the manufacturers send kind of a salesman that doesnt really understand the particulars, the manufacturing process, and the science behind it. This is not one of those times, this guy knows his freaking job and product well. Very well.
EXCELLENT questions
Are coatings something you've looked into at all before? Did this interview leave you with any more questions? Let us know and we'll address them in future content where possible for you guys 🤓
Cheers for the support! If you want Andre's t-shirt but are struggling to steal it off his back, you can grab your own here instead just FYI: shop.hpacademy.com/ - Taz.
I love coating. Convincing Mr Shadetree enthusiast that he should spend the money is hard ROI to swallow. There other areas to gain an advantage or increase longevity. Please do a video on exhaust coatings. IMHO thermal control is overlooked by most but most hardcore typically winners/most competitive.
@@wudntulike2no32 True however Mr Shadetree's often mistake trusting friends and others to tune their cars/trucks coating the piston domes would give them insurance for their bad decisions.
@@wudntulike2no32 while you are technically correct. I feel that it's best to get the best that you can when it comes to internals. Your rotating assembly is the one thing that you don't want to wish you had done differently, so I will always recommend getting the best pistons,rods etc for your application that money can buy even if it means holding off on something else till later.
Very informative for people that were thinking of replacing pistons and realizing the benefits that a coating can have. I thought you would ask about rings if that benefits but it wasn't mentioned. The race/rally specced engine I built the pistons had a 1mm top ring a Dykes type design made of steel with a PVD coating on it. Second ring also 1mm but the design is flat and surface of cylinder face is slightly slanted from top edge down. The skirts has a Zylon coating for reducing even more friction and F1 engine have the same coating with top of piston with a ceramic coating. Also piston material is different than the pistons available elsewhere. The cylinder wall is made with thin coating that I couldn't find out what they used, all it was said it reduces friction and helps transfer heat efficiently to reduce it. Back to the pistons I have which due to it being NA I polished the tops to a mirror finish to help reduce carbon build up and have a better flame front of combustion processes. The head design is Penthouse and chamber also polished to mirror finish. Piston pin has a DLC coating I just remembered. It's a small 4 cyl engine of bore 81.5mm and the stroke 81.5mm with 5mm longer rods of 135mm replacing the standard size of 129.5mm. Crank journal size is 46mm main also big end same. Revs to 8500rpm but easily and safely handle 10,000rpm. Rev limiter is triggered at a point power drops. Due to friction reducing coating on internal parts also the piston rings reducing even more friction the dyno reading was 223bhp with 142lbft torque but with wilder cams it could achieve over 240bhp with minor tuning of ECU parameters to match cam specs. The technician who set up the engine parameters on the dyno never known a engine that revved up so quick from idle to limiter like this one. Asked what was done to it I said it's secret tricks to reduce friction for increasing power I can't go into. PVD coating on 1mm rings and Zylon coating on skirts is definitely the best friction reducing internal parts releasing the largest increase of power but combined with the other components the power made adds up but is immeasurable to find which is the best one modification that increases power the best. Sorry about the long story of what other things different piston idea's are worth more in-depth analysis like this aspects I went into with pistons I used. Also I have the same name Taz as you. Interesting channel I've watched everyone that is out and look forward to the next one that comes out.
Would love to see one on WPC treatment..
Very informative video
i have hard anno and ceramic coated pistons in my sbf street motor, it runs like a top, id say the coatings are totally worth the coin.
Ever looked into WPC coatings?
Excellent interviewer and interviewee
What do you guys think about WPC treatment? It should help with micro welding on the top ring groove.
These blokes have some serious listening skills, idk what the hell they're talking about but damn sure I woulda interrupted 10x looking how excited Andre is 🤘
Seems like you've had this problem since childhood, I'd look into that.
@@dj4monie What do you mean?
@@doublevanoz Perhaps eluding to the nature of your (mine as well) alt-function (ADHD).
It's also about dissipating heat from a potential small area to a larger area on the other side.
the piston crown coating, which should also be used on valve face and combustion chamber... will reduce heat soak which will allow you to run more boost and more timing. the coating prevents the heat from soaking into the piston or cylinder head and helps it exit the engine. which will help keep tempature lower and enable more boost and timing.
Should i ceracote my cp piston tops and head on my 800bhp boosted k24 build?
Excelenteeeeee, gracias
Want some FREE MAHLE pistons for your own build? Enter the latest competition here: bit.ly/MahlePistonGiveaway
No sweepstakes, enter your card number there or give us some money here BS, it's as simple as a few clicks. Best of luck guys! - Taz.
i guess im asking the wrong place but does anyone know a way to log back into an Instagram account?
I was stupid lost my password. I would appreciate any help you can give me!
@Kaysen Griffin Instablaster :)
@Zayn Wilson i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and im in the hacking process now.
Seems to take quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
@Zayn Wilson It did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy!
Thanks so much you saved my account!
@Kaysen Griffin happy to help :D
Hey do you guys do remote tuning? When i get a haltech ecu one day i would have a hard time trusting anyone but you guys and i live in canada :)
Dang, auto-play kicked me out of the live chat. Thank you for another great video Taz, almost read all of your last reply! If im lucky I'll manage to find another engine, maybe the EJ thats hiding in a corner 👌
Ahh bugger. It's a shame the chat doesn't turn into comments or something eh! I'll try it again once or twice and see if you guys like it or just prefer a normal release 😎- Taz.
@@hpa101 I have to admit that I'm undecided so far, one of the advantages of CZcams is that you can watch a video whenever it suits you. But I see a value in being able to ask quick questions to the content maker too.
Try it again and see if it's worth it for you, I'll watch either way 😁
Can you use these coated pistons in an FRM block like a H series or F series Honda motor?
Thank you because of this video I just bought an expensive set of pistons, damnit
You're welcome. We'll even take the yelling from your missus about this 'life investment decision' too for you dude, we have your back 😎 - Taz
@@hpa101 thank you sir 🙏 haha
It would seem to me that a Cerakote of the upper ring groove would eliminate micro-welding.
Are there DLC coated pistons?
That was very informative thanks ceracote engine blocks a yes or no do you have that video
Nope, we have this one on another type of coatings which also gives a bit of insight into them in general however - www.hpacademy.com/blog/are-piston-coatings-worth-having-and-can-coatings-save-your-engine-tech-talk/ - Tz.
High Performance Academy thank you I’m redoing a 7.3 diesel
I going for A gold coating on my piston cup. I love goold...
C'mon Andre, that's absolutely not the main belief. These ceramic crown coatings can simply allow more aggressive tunes by eliminating hot spots on piston crowns. It's not a band aid for an improper tune, it's a performance enhancer. Swain tech is the world leader in automotive coatings.
Skirt coating yes. Thermal coating, not really needed for most builds. They do have their place.
Since people like to blame tuners and not themselves, I'd say dome coatings is required.
I love the difference in these guy's accents
Why doesn't Porsche not use it for bore score problems?
I wonder if Mahle has already offered a solution.....
I can't prove it but I feel that the thermal coating on my pistons saved my ass. We freshened up the 1.8t in my old A4 with new pistons so I could turn up the boost. It's a long story but I had a intake air temp sensor that was reading off and we couldn't figure out why it wasn't making power. Since we thought the motor could hold it we just kept turning up the boost thinking it would pick up. By the time I realized what was going on I was damn lucky I didn't cook the thing.
You didn't give any details that tell us anything about your setup or why the thermal coating would have had any effect.
"We freshened up the 1.8t in my old A4 with new pistons so I could turn up the boost." Why? A 1.8T doesn't need new pistons to run high boost.
"I had a intake air temp sensor that was reading off" What does this mean? Was it reading low? Why were you so intent on monitoring intake air temp? Why not look at something more useful like exhaust gas temperature?
"and we couldn't figure out why it wasn't making power." So the car wasn't making the power it should have been making? Why didn't you rectify that problem first?
"we just kept turning up the boost thinking it would pick up." Why on Earth would you continue to push the engine harder when it wasn't making power it should have been making on lower boost? Obviously there was a problem you needed to sort out before continuing. Why did you not rectify that first?
"By the time I realized what was going on I was damn lucky I didn't cook the thing." Did you really? What was the problem? It sounds like you have no idea. So what did you "realize" was "going on?"
This entire story reeks of ass-backwards idiotic ignorance. Throw parts and other things at the problem, ignore warning signs, and hope that somehow turning up the boost solves everything. If I were ever this stupid to do such a thing to a car, I'd never publicly admit it.
@@rars0n first off I didn't feel the need to write a book in the comments and gave enough to get the basics across.... But anyway yes the oem mahle pistons have proven themselves up to around 500hp give or take. But once over 100hp per cylinder you're running on the ragged edge and asking for problems if doing more than drag racing. We were shooting for 750 to all 4 wheels and quit at 842whp.
As for why I was using intake air temps and not egts? We have both and I assumed it's self explanatory. But the ecu monitors iat temperature in order to adjust timing among other things. Also while egt is a valuable tuning tool it's nowhere fast enough. Measuring the air going in is going to beat what's coming out every time when you're ecu is trying to calculate where in the maps it's supposed to be. Egt has it's place in tuning but there's a reason why ecus use iat sensors.
Why would we keep going...... When you tune enough you'll have a good idea of how much how per psi it should make.Just because a car makes less than expected doesn't mean there's always a problem and it's not a linear curve all the time. Plus everything was fine prior too. We just assumed it was the different turbo causing it to be a bit off. Either way between the detonation and high egts (didn't notice the detonation until the egt spike) had we had stock or uncoated pistons they wouldn't have lived. The wiseco armor x coating works. And I'm sure I missed something from your post but it's late and if you actually wanted to learn something you wouldn't have acted like you know everything and talked so much trash yet you didn't understand why the ecu uses intake air temps.
@@southjerseysound7340 There's a big difference between "turning up the boost" and aiming for 750+ whp. The way you initially phrased it sounded like it was necessary to change pistons just to increase boost pressure.
I understand perfectly why the ECU uses IAT. From a tuning perspective, IAT isn't all that useful though. In this case, the fact that the sensor was reading incorrectly lead to a problem, but it wasn't IAT that told you what the problem was, it was detonation and EGT.
I do appreciate you specifying which coating you were using. I don't doubt the efficacy of coatings at all. I still doubt that uncoated aftermarket pistons would have had a problem in this instance, though. I don't think piston coatings will magically make up for poor tuning. There's not enough information in this one anecdote to make a determination either way.
Does thermal coating ever deteriorate or flake off over time, will it still be like new let's say 10,000 or 20,000 miles down the road on a street strip application granted as long as the tune is good?
I can't speak for other brands and their coatings, but Eric does touch on this by stating the coating will last the life of the piston save for any events that wear it prematurely, however if that happens it is supposed to be sacrificial to save your engine from damage - Taz.
@@axelriet awesome thanks for the info
Hi Andre.
So is using oil additives with 100% synthetic oil beneficial for everyday tuned car? Like Liqui Moly, Bardahl, they claim to prevent metal to metal by coating cilinder walls, bearings, etc.. so is that effect similar to one from Mahle factory coating?
Thanks
The problem is that the heat on top of the piston is going to be more and become for of a problem for the head gasket.
Love a good puh-stun 😂
I feel like Andre's interviewees are afraid of him. talk about pressure and micro-welds. that smile at the end of each episode though
How do Manley pistons compare? I can save 120 bucks switching to Manley. My biggest concern is longevity and noise.
If your worried about saving 120 bucks then you prob shouldn’t be build or rebuilding a engine
Where can I get the product to do it myself
cerakote
I know mahle has some 4g63 and 64 pistons lol
This guys voice is unassuming for his stature. Honestly, I was working and listening, and thought for sure it was a middle age, heavier set, bearded, unenthusiastic looking guy. Then my buddy Matt was on the screen. Lol
Having this talk in front of line 2 line is kind of funny
Watching this after the Papadakis 1000hp b58 build 😝.
Good man! He has some awesome content eh! - Taz.
@@hpa101 If your interested in purely drift cars (yawn). I respect Papadakis for his import drag racing since I was there......
@@dj4monie What do you mean?
I didn't even know they were really drift orientated but don't think it matters. The main things I've watched over the years are engine teardowns etc @Anthony. Engine is an engine :) - Taz.
Ceramic coatings on internal engine parts was banned by F1, must be a reason for that, on the most highly developed engines on the planet earth. They do have 6 oil squirters spraying oil on the bottom of the piston to cool it off.
So essentially the skirt coating isn't there to support piston to wall clearance in the event it doesn't last... which of course it won't. Be better off designing pistons that actually have tiny pockets on the skirts that hold oil for those cold starts instead of the coating... imo.
Saying "Worth having" sounds like its q choice when buying pistons
But u know... u can buy coating spray
nissan been using piston coatings since the 90's
They go back much further than the 90's I believe but the type of coatings have and will vary - Taz.
Oh. It's pronounced "Maullee" I always thought it was pronounced "Maul"
Yes we checked with the Mahle team before the interview and pronounced it as per their instructions =) - Taz.
@@hpa101 Now I know...One day I will bring my friends here to prove I am pronouncing it correctly.😀
I don't think anyone building an engine has EVER thought or said that any kind of piston coating can compensate for a bad tune or prevent damage to an engine due to poor tuning. What a bizarre premise to start with. Anyone that has this ridiculous notion in their head shouldn't be building an engine, period. "If not, what's the point?" What an idiotic question.
Assuming you work in the industry as a tuner and have a lot of experience in talking to 100's/1000's of people about this and other topics, I'm surprised it hasn't come up. If you make your living outside the industry, then I'm not surprised it hasn't to be fair, hardly water cooler chit chat.
It is also discussed in passing here, but you can do your own Googling: czcams.com/video/AunRiiSidBE/video.html
I don't know where the notion came from, maybe some poor marketing angle previously by some company - Taz.
😍😍😍😍
LMAO, you happen to be standing next to one of the best coating companies in Racing "Line 2 Line" coatings.........I send your stuff, pistons, exhaust valves, turbo housings all to them for coatings, not Mahle. IMO you should be seeking coating companies, and not piston company's whos primary business is NOT coatings. LOL
oops my stuff Nascar and high-performance aircraft engine stuff to Line 2 Line
Doesn't matter who you choose you use for coatings if you don't understand why you might get it done at all in the first place. If you watch the video you'll see it is educational, not just an advert for Mahle =) - Taz.