What Makes A Game Punk?
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
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When someone describes something as punk, chances are you have a rough idea of what they mean. But if you actually stopped to think about it, would that meaning be so apparent? What about games, where costs (and the need to profit) are much higher? All this and more discussed in this episode of Writing on Games!
0:00 - What is punk?
2:43 - Suda51, or Trash Culture Gone Avant-Garde
8:29 - The indie game scene
9:10 - DOOM, Gaming's Punk Rock Moment
10:53 - Sinclair and Acorn
13:04 - The Physical Struggle of British Home Development
14:18 - Conclusion
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Intro text animation by Draz: / drazgames
/ @drazgames
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Suda51 "Punk's Not Dead", Game Watch Impress (Google Translated) - game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs...
The video game industry's ‘punk rock’ developer on the indie movement - mashable.com/2017/09/13/suda-...
Postmodernism and Punk Subculture: Cultures of Authenticity and Deconstruction (Ryan Moore, 2004) - www.researchgate.net/publicat...
Geeks Who Rocked The World: Documentary Looks Back At Origins Of The Computer Games Industry - www.independent.co.uk/life-st...
Atari Age: The Emergence of Video Games in America (Michael Newman, 2017) - mitpress.mit.edu/books/atari-age
DOOM was video gaming's punk moment - www.theguardian.com/technolog...
Bohemians: The Glamorous Outcasts (Elizabeth Wilson, 2000) - www.amazon.co.uk/Bohemians-Gl...
Doom - Quartz Obsession - qz.com/email/quartz-obsession...
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Jeff Minter, Sandy Wright, Matthew Smith interview footage from From Bedrooms To Billions (check this out if you're interested in British retro, amazing stories here) - www.frombedroomstobillions.com/
DOOM footage from Sydia - • Video
John Romero interview footage from Motherboard and Noclip - • Meet John Romero: One ... • John Romero's Irish Ad...
BASIC programming footage from The Centre for Computing History - • Starting BASIC with th...
Suda51 interview footage from Extra Credits, toco toco, Game Informer - • SUDA51, Game Creator (... • Suda51 Interview with ... • Suda51's Favorite Game...
Super Mario Bros footage from Basileous Productions - • Super Mario Bros (NES)...
Ayame Blackburn footage from Kyle Brockman - • Killer 7 - Ayame Black...
Extra Killer7 footage from GoldenSpoon - • Video
Nintendo E3 2003 footage from Gamespot - • Nintendo E3 2003 Press...
Making of MGS4 footage - • MGS4 Documentary - Hid...
Senate hearing footage from Grooveraider - • The Senate Hearing on ...
DOOM 2 trailer - • Doom 2: Hell On Earth ...
DOOM WAD footage from emmanuel vargas - • "Old school" Doom WAD ...
Ian Mackaye footage from Library of Congress - • Ian MacKaye speaking a...
Bill Gates in DOOM footage - • Bill Gates Doom
Hover Bovver and Revenge of the Mutant Camels footage from DerSchmu - • C64-Longplay - Hover B...
Poll Tax riot footage - • Thatcher Poll Tax Riot...
ZX Spectrum advert - • ZX Spectrum 80's Advert
Acorn Electron advert - • Acorn Electron compute...
The Empire Strikes Back footage from Highretrogamelord - • Star Wars: The Empire ...
Chuckie Egg footage from Kieran Simkin - • A&F Software - Chuckie...
Elite footage from AdventuresInRetro = • Elite - BBC Micro
Production work by Nico Bleackley - Hry
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I thought this was gonna be about Cyberpunk et. al.
What an absolutely crazy choice of topic. Great video!
"Dujanah" is the most "punk" game I've ever played. A weirdly beautiful piece of art of slapped together game styles and art styles. All made by ONE GUY! The developer interviews are great.
This video was fucking amazing. I've always loved the punk attitude to art, especially punk cinema but also music and games! You summarized it perfectly!
There was this book that came out a few years ago 'The Rise of Videogame Zinesters' which was also an examination of punk tendencies in games, especially in the Twine text adventure scene. Worth checking out.
Gravamen that sounds incredibly interesting, will check it out!
Would argue the indie scene has a ton of punk games in their own right. Things like Hello Charlotte, that defy understanding and whose developments are as interesting as the madness of the games themselves, make a strong case or that
I was about four years old when Doom came out, so I didn't know the stuff about how open they were with spreading the game around and encouraging bootlegs. That's _really_ cool.
It's not that different from bands asking fans to make copies of their music and spreading it.
Yeah that's super unconventional to see, no wonder it spread so far!
In any form of art I've always found the difference between avant-garde and punk being that avant-garde says, "I'm going to do things differently." while punk says, "Fuck you, I'm going to do things differently." It's not necessarily always coming from a place of negativity or revilement, but it usually is deeply rooted in a desire to rebel. I'm not simply doing this in an unconventional way because I think it's neat, I'm doing it this way because I feel I have to. It's less of a simple choice of style and more a necessity that further validates the existence the work as much as it does strengthen the meaning behind it and the desire to create it.
Punk musicians could have made typical dance music, but that didn't speak to them, so instead they embraced the aggression that spoke to their souls, that drove them to create it. Punk authors could have made typical adventure novels, but instead they were compelled to create entirely new worlds that exploited ideas to a heighten level and used it all to satirize and speak to power in a way their contemporaries couldn't. You can either throw paint randomly on a canvas because it sells in the abstract market or you can do a sculpture of a urinal because you're disillusioned from the art world and want people to both know your feelings on it and be confronted by what you see as its flaws.
Either way, being a punk isn't just something you do because it's fun, it's something you do because you feel like if you don't, no one else will and that is what makes it even more important. It's inside of you. It's part of you.
And once a punk, always a punk.
Way to remind me why I love your content
To sum it into it into a single sentence, Its when you do something "the wrong way" and succed in spite of it.
Who's to say what's "right" or "wrong"? I'd suggest that you replace either of those with "popularly"....
@@normallyimnuts767 Popular works, but i chose "the wrong way" to specifically invoke that punk against the man mindset. You are correct to say who gets to decide the right way, and Id say thats exactly what punk is protesting against.
Also unpopular could also refer to hipster or niche games, which have a diffrent tone compared to something punk.
This was a really good quality video. It’s a fresh perspective, interesting observation/opinion piece, and looks at games as an art medium instead of “just a game”... would love to see more like this from you in the future.
Enjoyed. The floppy disk probably started something analogous to the mixtape generation, where one individual's selection of preferred games became copied, distributed and ultimately influenced a generation of developers. A sort of pirate disk jockey for the C64 generation
Incredible video as usual. The intersection of punk and lots of niche japanese media is actually pretty interesting. Things like flcl and Suda games carry such a strong sense of that punk aesthetic
You did really good on this essay
I think you did a pretty good job describing punk.
Awesome video as ever Hamish! :) this was an incredibly interesting video to watch! I continue to tremendously enjoy the way in which you go through and give a structured & well-balanced analysis/argument while also taking the time to further explain and justify your reasons for your opinions and conclusions keep up the stellar work mate!.
Great timing on this, as Killer7 just got announced for Steam
I think it does a disservice to the punk movement to distance it from its political aspect. Punk was borne out of radical political circles in the UK and US; in the same way that the hippies had Peter, Paul, and Mary and their ilk, the insurrectionists could be said to have had The Sex Pistols and the socialists had The Clash. In fact, a sizable amount of the punk ethos, particularly as you've described it here, reflects that origin in its emphasis on the democratization of the means of production.
He did mention the political aspect: as he talked about the means of production and taking control of production. Not everyone in the punk movement belonged or belongs to a political party, let alone a particular political party. Nor did they need to be involved in specifically political activism. Punk didn't grow out of political parties: it is a new name for the old ideas that are behind those parties. Saying the names of the parties is thus not relevant and potentially confusing. Punk is the act of creation in violation of social norms and structures: no matter which hegemonic actor set up those structures. It's a phenomenon as old as human history itself, "punk" is simply it's 20th century label.
That's a very good analysis actually. In fact, the interesting thing that happened after the initial wave of british punk bands like the clash and sex pistols was those who started independently run labels like Factory, Rough Trade and Zoo with a mostly leftist slant in their business model and ethics but didn't totally do away with capitalist traits like, well...selling stuff. These labels represented a 'mixed economy' approach to the music business which is to me what defines 'punk'; the attitude and business model began to take precedent over the actual genre of music.
This can be applied to video games but for the most part it's a much more 'professional' format by default because it has to be. Video games take waaaaaaay more effort to develop than learning how to play a guitar or even operate a camera.
Well said, non-conformism is the essence of this ideology which is inherent to its political aspect.
@@sophiejones7727 You conflate political with merely party affiliation; the non-conformism of the punk-movement is a social and political ideology.
came down here to express the exact sentiment in that first sentence. A lot of the discussion in this video that i've watched so far seems to be associating 'punk-ness' with some sort of general ideas of "disobedience" or "fighting adversity", and makes it very easy to be painted as either a negative or just generic by those opposed to it.
Nice.... The live recordings of the band at 12:10. Its my birthday/time. MIND BLOWN
Great video by the way thanks
Awesome essay video. Was looking for video-games that are Punk themed whilst I wait for my physical copy of Ruiner to arrive. I'm in the mood to try games that can be truly defined as being Punk cause of Ruiner, it being cyberpunk, and now this essay of yours covering what is it that makes games Punk. I think the first ever Punk game that I played was Killer 7 actually, and back then when I was a kid I assumed that Punk games were simply just horror and overall creepy cause of games like Manhunt, Red Faction and Killer 7. Always found the insisted themes carried throughout the games I considered to be Punk to be unnerving. Never finished Killer 7 back in the day because it scared me, but now that I think about it, I think it scared me because of how unique and what a vastly different game it was back then. Well, it still is pretty unique to this day. I guess actually having to go and stay still to be able to recognize enemies and then having to shoot them in said prone position is what frightened me. I've always been unsure how I can assure that a game is Punk, I always assumed games to be Punk based on their overlaying theme, genre, "aura", etc. but this essay does help evaluate a question like that for me. I still don't fully grasp the definition of Punk in video-games, I'm pretty damn aloof usually, but this essay does have me wanting to know more about the discussion.
love the new haircut Yong
Really interesting topic!
Hearing you talk about ZX Spectrum developers reminds me a lot of prototyping stuff in Unity, trying to make something quick and hack-y to demonstrate a weird idea or trying to recreate some feature of a game just to prove you can do it. It's awesome that free versions of increasingly user-friendly engines are being made available so that more small, experimental games can get out there.
However, I can't help but feel that because most of these engines are now products in and of themselves that need monstrous amounts of money and labor to make that it kind of undercuts the "punkishness" of a lot of smaller projects. Drool wrote their own engine for Thumper, which is really cool, but that's often out of the question for a lot of teams, especially if that would involve intensive systems like physics or 3D rendering.
I guess do you think using an off-the-shelf engine like Unity, Unreal, or CryEngine compromises any punk ethos that may have arisen out of a game made with said tool?
Re: your third point - do you think the newer Green Day or Bad Religion stuff is punk? My gut feeling is that the answer to both of these is yes, but that may just be me
This is a fantastic take on this question. Make more please!
I remember someone playing killer 7 on a livestream once now that i see it again in this depth i wanna play it
Great stuff HB!
Great video, really interesting discussion. Definitely agree with you on punk in gaming starting with the 80s UK homebrew scene while continuing to this day - And in a sea of weird games that wound their way onto magazine cover tapes due to that, I think the weirdest game I grew up with was probably Sheep In Space. Which... I've never played anything quite like it before or since, even when playing other games that were either Defender or also fairly obviously Defender inspired.
That grazing mechanic which you needed to use to refuel your sheep or replenishing shields but if you overfed you'd explode, combined with the twin planet surfaces and needing to manipulate where you were in the gravitational fields to both change speed and to arc your shots just right to actually hit the enemies made for a very distinct game experience.
Excellently researched video! So awesome 👏
Super awesome video!
Very interesting topic for a video. I tend to not like a lot of games that could be described as Punk, due to them often lacking polish, but I can appreciate what they manage to accomplish.
Check out the work of the "arcane kids" and "Torahhorse"
I didn't come here with the highest expectations, but this video was really well thought out and reasearched.
What makes a game punk? Tae Takemi.
Devin Maestro Hall goth doc 😍
Makoto has a definite punk side too.
I went into this video with an, "ugh, this aughta be good" attitude but damn, you threaded that needle.
Also, I appreciate the presence of Fugazi in this clip who are, by my account, the band that most genuinely embody the punk ethos.
I'm not to familar with "punk" stuff but I'm curious now so I guess I gotta look into it!
In games or in music?
Hubblebub Lumbubwub Anything
Punk can be described as anything that's non-conformity; going against the grain, so to speak. Emphasising on the idea of individuality and rebellion.
Bronzin So Persona 5????? (Jk lol)
The Hunter x Hunter 2011 Dickriding Association yeah actually. For music, punk is easy to find! Its an actual genre but thats a specific kind of music unlike the punk writing on games is talking about. Even though its not really 100% punk but has thst personality I suggest Rage Against The Machine- Killing in the name of. Its an awesome track.
For games, mirrors edge was always kinda punk to me, with its SUBTLE distaste of the employee culture and how the game itself was experimental all round from the city looking unique and the music being created by an experimental band called Solar Fields, as well as gameplay which at the time was pushing the FPS genre in a more mobile direction, now seen in Titanfall 2.
So even though they are not really punk these 2 have the feel and message personally.
Mirrors Edge
Rage Against the Machine-Killing in the name of
ENJOY!
I was at the melvins show in video.
Nice! I watch that performance of Boris quite a lot.
I was lucky enough to grow up in Olympia, and was there durning the 90s. I saw some amazing music come through town. The Melvins and Tad were my two favorite. I appreciate your embracing of, and your perspective on punk. This was my first video of yours. I immediately became a subscriber. Well done. Oi!
"Hey, I'm Hamish -Black- "
My brain is still binged to the old intro and that always throws me off haha
I love this video. This is great!
Nice. You got yourself a new subscriber mate. 👍
I was waiting for Mark E. Smith of the Fall to come up and he did towards the end. He's the ultimate proof that punk isn't about outfits or style, it's all about the attitude. You can wear a wooly sweater and outpunk everyone.
yes! Punk isn't just a style and people tend to get that wrong about punk
I want to start by saying I loved this video. You did a fantastic job on this and I thought it covered the topic very well. However, one thing I think you missed, maybe on purpose, is that punk is not just a movement, or an emotion, but a culture with its own norms and expectations. Avant garde is not punk by itself, it is punk when it has the punk aesthetic. Avant garde art is not punk, and vice versa. What makes something punk goes beyond that, it is an aesthetic all its own. That is why there are genres of punk, cyberpunk, steampunk, diesel punk, atom punk, etc. These punk genres exist because punk has an look and feel that can be applied, and goes beyond just fighting authority or being counter, it's being loud, being aggressive in your fight, and being who you think you should be.
Punk aesthetics became so stale that they got rejected by the people who started punk in the first place.
''Punk's not dead, it just deserves to die when it becomes another stale cartoon'' -Jello Biafra
Informative.
Frog Fractions
Great video. What is the background music?
Great analysis! I wish for long-form content from WOG someday.
Also, Jesus Lizard!
Before watching the video: Punk(Rock) is a huge part of my life and it only has one meaning to me. Doing and thinking whatever the fuck you want (without being an asshole to others of course). Stay true to yourself. And that's the vibe I also get from Suda games :)
This is such a well written video
suda51, siege, and mark e smith; we're friends now :)
I see Kojima as being a bit of a punk guy, but like the punk that happened to get on the radio and so it's kinda shocking when like a Death Stranding comes out and you're like yeah, once a punk always a punk.
7:05 ... Biker Jesus James from Extra Credits. Can someone link that interview?
Sometimes the CZcams suggestions are worth. Subscribing.
Amazing video.
7:05 Am I dreaming or is the guy on the far left James Portnow from Extra Credits?
Kojima did more than what you mentioned. You should have talked a lot about mgs 2, what he did with Raiden, the commentary about being a gamer and controle etc.
Great definition.
What's the craic with all these Irish videogame youtubers that produce high quality content? We love our vidya games it seems xD EDIT: scottish maybe? I'm Irish and your accent is breaking me
7:04 "I understood that (Extra Credits) reference"
I fucking love SUDA51 games! Killer 7 just got a Steam realease announcement, and there's a No More Heroes threequel coming to Switch soon!
This does make me think that the mechanics of Let It Die, where the character is constantly picking up equipment and particularly different pieces of armour, meaning that it is rather anithetical to keep a unifying 'look' in terms of clothing and favourite weapon, is that game's key punk statement.
Great Video. The thing about gaming is that as a medium, it is still in it's "punk" phase. You touched on how punk is this anti-authoritarian ethos that starts out trying to prove itself to more established and 'legitimate' peers, and that perfectly describes where gaming still is, despite progress in recent years. As for punk within the medium, perhaps we should distinguish between being unconventional, revolutionary and punk. Mario was revolutionary, but calling it punk is strange, and Killer 7 is unconventional or postmodern or whatever it is, but it is more a novel product by a singular auteur than a true revolution.
To me, Indy developers best capture the punk mantra, as they have to scrounge money, resources and talent to actually get a product out to market, but gaming as a whole has moved past this phase. The real question to me is if once you become successful and/or influential, can you still be considered punk? Ideas get adopted from the fringe all the time, but if the fringe becomes the mainstream is it punk anymore? Rocket league had a punk sensibility, but it is now an institution in itself. Dark souls was this renegade design philosophy that has now come to permeate the whole medium, and the games sell millions and have inspired a sub-genre.
Ultimately, I think punk is nebulous because you can never pin it down. It is always occupying the fringe, holding systems in check and providing an outlet for the dispossessed. If it becomes too powerful it defeats its purpose and becomes self undermining. It's easy to get into the trap of calling an eclectic aesthetic or self-referential irony punk, as opposed to the general feel of "screw the system, we'll do it our way". In any case, you should do more content like this!
thanks i love it
1:16 wtf is this the bassist of Lightning Bolt??
Speaking of Killer 7, it is getting a PC release this fall by NIS America, so everyone can give this weird game a shot.
Great video looking back over the history of little punky games, like you said there wasn't time for everything, but it's a shame you didn't get to cover some more of the current wave of punky work being produced by developers in tools like Flickgame, Bitsy, Twine, Pico8 and this weird obscure engine called Unity. /s
Check out @hmtwvcicbid on twitter for a whooooooole ton of punk games (or trashgames as the curator calls them), the last game posted there is called The Painful Box which I feel makes its own case for being punk right there in the title.
1:17 SIEGEEEE
You've got good music taste
This video reminded me how respectable the original creators of DOOM were.
I’m glad that people still love the franchise all these years later.
FUGAZI!!!
What about Keyboard Drumset Fucking Werewolf? Did anybody else play that?
1:38 game?
Black ops 4
Here from Mark Brown!
as confusing as enjoyable. cool!
*follow*
nice to meet you
1:33
stop there!! and let me correct it, i wanna live a life from a NEW PERSPECTIVE
Wait, did I just see James from extra credits?
Grim Howard yeah, from his interview with Suda
Love that channel. Dave just smei left though. Been watching your vids since the one on Zelda towers. Have loved everyone since
Offbeat Indie games are pretty punk (think Hotline: miami and The binding of Isaac)
I feel like Post-Killer-is-Dead Suda is like Pennywise today. Still punk, but actually on a foundation. It's more "safe" than it used to be but Let it Die is still pretty fuckin punk even when you inspect the systems, it's just roguelite dark souls.
Keep in mind, he hasn't actually been the lead director of a game since the first No More Heroes. He's used as a brand a lot, and a lot of his sensibilities still shine through even when he's not at the helm exactly, but look to the games he personally directs- Travis Strikes Back: No More Heroes will be the first one in ages, and I'm excited as hell!
sin clair and acorn?
Fuck yeah☠️
I'm pretty late here, but I don't think your description of Doom's distribution is accurate. The game was not distributed as a whole for free - rather instead, the first episode (of three) was distributed for free. It is, in effect, a very large and effective demo, NOT the whole game. They allowed stores to package it up and sell it for five bucks if they wanted to, but it has full-screen ads for buying the whole version built into it. The full version of Doom could ONLY be obtained via mail-order; you couldn't buy Doom 1 in a box in a store until Ultimate Doom came out a year later.
I think another punk game in many ways is E.Y.E divine cybermancy. Its a bizzare french game full of intentionally vague and baffling ideas with art inspired by whatever the devs thought was cool and a stupidly intricate rpg system all built in a way that feels like a source mod that got way out of hand.
The points you bring up here are actually what lead me to a kind of distaste for the way Persona 5 positions itself as punk! It appropriates the aesthetics without any of the ethos
Psycho Mantis is pretty punk
so... i punk, I would never have thought
Punk doesn't have to be Original, it just has to show The Man that we can do what they do but better.
One does not simply, Punk.
I can tell you what game isn't punk: cyberpunk 2077 (:
If it ain't anti-capitalist, it ain't punk!
You played Killer7 on a PS2?!
UNSUBBED!!
Joking, that is my favourite piece of art of all time across all media.
"Don't Shit Your Pants" was pretty punk.
I once said to a friend that Killer 7 is kinda like playing through a dozen punk-o-rama CDs. And I still stand by that statement.
I don't really know if it's related, but the first I got in my mind with that title, is DmC Devil May Cry
Being punk just means putting yourself out there. It means expressing who you are and fuck everyone else. That's why punk singers might not have been able to sing, but they were willing to put themselves in physical danger to get on stage and throw a middle finger to the world.
You could be skilled if that's what you wanted to do. It's just being punk means you don't give a shit who the "gatekeepers" are. So if a gatekeeper says you have to be skilled to do x, y, or z then you punch that fucker in the throat and walk on stage anyways.
Minecraft is punk, Soda Drinker Pro is punk, FNAF is punk. It's aggressively believing in your vision and not willing to put up with bullshit to have it realized.
spelunky kinda punky
"Punk" is synonymous with "Whore" and "Bitch" in prison.
Weird that we use the same word to label art.
All games by Cactus are punk
I’m bugged that God of War is now just “The Road”, yet it’s so good that everybody has forgotten about Hellblade which released at half the price and sent a great majority of its proceeds to mental wellness programs along with the ones they worked with on the game.
Strassboom Hellblade doesn't exactly offer a 30+ hour experience. It's a 6 hour indie game
I am not much of a Punk guy and don't know so much about Punk, but I don't think that there is much to be known about Punk as its definition is not set in stone and thus kinda makes Punk what it is. A thing with a message where you freely decide what it means. That's what I define as Punk. A message that is against being part of the norm, against what is accepted. I agree that a form of punk can be found in Indie-titles from across the world, where passionate people create games with whatever they have in terms of resources and talent, and still release their product. But I don't think that everything with a small budget is punk and that within the context of video games, you can find punk works of art made by tripple a developers. An example of this for me is DOOM 2016. In my opinion it was one of the most punk games in recent years. Why? Because it went against the status quo of its time and didn't care about what is and isn't popular. In times where story driven games with emotional plots, characters and settings were celebrated like Christmas like the Last of Us, this game decided to say :" fuck the plot, lets have some action and listen to some metal". Its intro level is literal just you waking up, get a hint of a plot, put on the suit and when the plot starts unfolding via a conversation with Samuel Hayden on a screen, the protagonist shoves that screen away. He gives no fucks about the story either and just wants to bash some demon skulls.
For me that game is punk. Not PURE punk, but punk nonetheless. Its message is clear: games can be fun and awesome without plot and characters. things do not need to be complex to work and soundtracks can feel free to be as loud as possible instead of being ambiente in the background that only occationall comes out.
The real question that should be asked: Is it prog rock enough?
When you gave your definition of punk in the video game art, the first game I was thinking about was Spec Ops: The Line.
i know hylics is punk af
So punk TL;DR is "Hold my beer"?
Jun Imai not really, punk was never about doing it "better" than someone else. It's more about doing it your own way.