Horus Heresy: How to Build a Legion - Salamanders
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- čas přidán 17. 06. 2022
- Today we’ll be looking at the Salamanders in the next video in our ‘How to build a Legion’ series. We will cover off on four main areas. Firstly, how the boxed set supports the building of a Raven Guard army. Secondly, how the Legion’s special rules can be best taken advantage of on the table. Thirdly, how Rites of War impact unit selection. And lastly, whether any Legion Characters, Warlord Traits, or the Legion Advanced Reaction, change the way you might build and play your army.
Hopefully this is useful not only to those interested in the Salamanders, but for all Legion players, giving them an understanding of the concepts behind army building in Horus Heresy, and an idea of what each Legion can bring to the table.
Salamanders are a really interesting army that have a few competing opportunities, making them a bit of a challenge to build and still see success on the table. You at once want to unleash dragon themed flame on your enemies, but delivering that short ranged firepower can be bit tricky when selecting the most flame filled Rite of War. I hope you enjoy my analysis.
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That’s my 2 loyalist legion considerations done, now it’s time for the long wait on my traitors…. Either that or it’s shattered and shields. Really enjoying your heresy coverage keep it up man. Getting my box today
Thanks Man! Can't wait for mine to arrive!! Waiting. Waiting.
Posting about the 18th legion on the 18th. What a nice touch! Also THANK YOU for covering the Awakening fire! That's the one I would like to play the most! Such cool fluff!
Love this series. Very helpful for a completely new player like me to plan out what units and boxes I need to plan to get. Thank you
Very interested in Salamanders as my first army, thanks for this video!
Thank you for this great video, I am new to 40k and have chosen Salamanders as my first army as I like the lore and overall vibe of them. This has been really helpful to get more oriented to the mechanics of play and such. Cheers
You're very welcome! If you haven't already, check out the Salamanders Review over at The Eye of Horus Podcast too :D
You should consider doing this for specifically rights of war I think it would help new people see what they may need to get to build a theme I say start with Generic rights 😉
For sure! Still waiting on my rulebook. Sigh. But when it arrives I'll be doing a video for all of the generic RoWs 😊
I really appreciate these videos. I am mostly in the hobby for the modeling aspect, but I'd still like to have a reasonable force on the tabletop. I am as yet undecided between Salamanders and Iron Hands, so I will wait for your video on the latter before deciding.
Got some waiting to do! But we'll get there. It's important to have a fun, great looking army, that can still give a good performance on the battlefield.
Please do Death Guard soon! great informative series!
Not TOO long to go!
amazing review, can't wait for Iron warriors, and Thousand sons
Thanks! Not long for Thousand Sons!!
@@blackbriargaming5483 would you recommend, Thousand sons, Iron hands or Salamanders, to begin HH with ?
I already have Custodes when their rules come out.
@@azir64 Iron Hands a great beginners army as their play style isn't overly complex or unique. But it comes down to which army you're passionate about 😊
Yes Salamanders!!
Gotta admit its really tempting to go all out on that rite of war that makes Pyroclasts troops and line, 3 units of 10 in rhinos, Soo many points but the models are some of the coolest looking 30k minis and if you could somehow get a 2cnd cc reaction, Would be hilarious to see 2 units put out overwatch lol
I use Underworld Assault as my RoW. It's fluffy and helps get my flamers and meltas up close and personal.
Vulkan lives!
Vulkan h'stan works well as a praetor. Just a different head and it's ready to go (the head is separate too)
I doing a kinda post istvan 5 salamanders army. They got armor from the ravenguard to replace lost and destroyed equipment hence why they have beaky helms also gonna have the armor be color mixed so green and black
Nice! So many fun blackshield ideas!
With the exemplary Adherent squad being 140 points for 5 marines, and the upcoming Salamander inductii units looking pretty good, would you recommend a starter use their AoD box to build one or both of these early on? I'm new to wargaming but the way I see it adherents give you double the bang for your buck compared to regular tactical marines, so making 10-20 of these and throwing in an extra box of terminators to me sounds like a good way to start making points? Would i be messing up big time with this idea?
Your video has definitely helped me figure out what I want to run but I do have a question: would a Salamander model with a combi-flamer be able to use the profile of a Dragon's Breath Flamer? I'm not versed well in 7E and just recently got my Liber Astartes book in.
As far as I know, the answer is no, no dragon breath for combi-flamers which is a bit of a shame! It's the same with some ammunition types. My Iron Warriors can't have Shrapnel rounds in their combi-bolters. Sad Face. Glad I could help! :D
I know that this is late but, are Legion Champions worth it in this Legion? Or are these Centurions better off in others such as the Emperor’s Children?
Old fluff was anti grav stuff wasn't very reliable on nocturnes fluctuating magnetic fields due to being a volcano world!
Makes sense why they're not into it!
Hehehe, bring to the table
I am gonna build an Tank heavy Forcewith Kratos and Sicarians as weapon plattform, because you want to take Landraiders for transport and so most of the army has front defence 13 or 14 so there a lot of wastet shots in the first turns.
Nice! Definitely a solid tactic!
Mk VI in Rogue Trader scheme all I gotta say
Are you going to do how to build white scars
Sure am! But going backwards in order so they're a while out yet 😔 In the meantime, jetbikes! 😋
Don't firedrakes cost exactly the same amount as normal cataphractii? And are better? I would always use them even just for the WS5, stubborn, IWND 5+, forge craft of nocturne and +1 attack on the sergeant, there is no reason not to use them
Nope! I don't have the Liber yet but I'm tracking that Firedrakes are around 75pt more expensive for a unit of 5? Also. Most people are about to have 10 Cataphractii and may not be keen to drop $260 (aud) on 10 Firedrakes even if they are better 😅 But also. Models are sweet. So I totally would 😋
@@blackbriargaming5483 I have a leak that says firedrakes are 250 for 5 with power weapons and combi bolters and you can pay +10 per thunder hammers, +10 per chainfist, +5 per power fist, +5 per combi flamer, +10 per combimelta, +5 per shield (+1 to inv) and +10 for one heavy flamer per 5, also each firedrake outside of the starting 5 costs only 45, so a squad of 5 firedrakes with combi bolters and chainfists that you can build out of the AoD boxset is only 25 more expensive than a normal cataphractii squad but with all the abilities that I mentioned in my first comment
@@mikoajjaniec6872 aren't Cataphractii only 175pt though? Or did they go up in the final rules??
@@blackbriargaming5483 I might be mistaken but yesterday when I looked at the rules in that came with the box, they're 250 with +5 for chainfists
@@blackbriargaming5483 I stand corrected, normal cataphractii are actually 175 so you were right
I apologize in advance for this scatterbrained essay of a comment, but here's my thoughts on what's been presented over the course of the video:
You're right about the Salamanders' need for transports - they are a legion that very much likes its close-range firepower and wants to use them, after all - and I can concur that the Spartan is best reserved for those games where you're rolling Vulkan around with 10 Firedrake buddies as his bodyguard. That however is a hefty investment (~1500pts worth) that you're going to be building an army around if you go that route, and not one that I'd consider to be suited for a 3000pt game at least (much less a mechanized one below 3500pts). Leaving out the primarch however, you might alternatively consider using multiple Spartans in a Terminator-heavy Pride of the Legion army as dedicated transports.
For most other things, I'd definitely recommend saving the points and just give a 35pt Rhino to each 10-man squad that needs one (i.e. any squad not using heavy weapons - they can find themselves deployed on a nice elevated piece of terrain to shoot from for the entire game) and a 220pt Land Raider to each unit you want charging into combat (i.e. Veterans, Terminators, Retinue, etc). Don't forget that you can also slap pintle-mounted weapons on them as well, which will not only boost the squad's utility (I frequently affix multi-meltas on rhinos and land raiders alike for the additional anti-tank capabilities) but also count as Defensive Weapons if the vehicle is being charged, regardless of the weapon's Strength.
And speaking of weapon strength, the difference between S5 and S6 on the Dragon's Breath flamers and heavy flamers respectively is actually pretty significant given the most common unit in the game: S5 wounds standard marines on a 3+; S6 on a 2+. Also, while you're right in the assessment that it's generally not a feasible unit to throw into a heavy support slot under most circumstances, there's one in which heavy flamer support squads really shine: Zone Mortalis. Not only are they among the cheapest Heavy Support choice available at the moment (a full 10-man heavy flamer squad costing about as much as a 5-man Pyroclast squad at 175pts before upgrades), but there's also no other unit available in the Legiones Astartes repertoire outside of dreadnought talons that can fill heavy support slots in a ZM game. That, and they have the Heavy sub-type, meaning that they get to re-roll failed saves from blast and template weapons.
On the topic of Praetors and Champions, thunder hammers do two things that are detrimental for those HQ choices: when used, they effectively crater their wielders' Initiative from 5 down to 1 courtesy of the Unwieldy special rule, and as Specialist Weapons they may not grant the additional attack from having multiple melee weapons short of the other melee weapon also having that special rule. In spite of the fact that you'll generally want to slap a dragonscale storm shield on them as a Salamanders player (which will outright prevent them from gaining that additional attack anyway), you'll do fine just keeping them equipped rules-wise with Paragon Blades instead, since it really doesn't matter what they're supposed to look like.
For conversion opportunities elsewhere, Forgefather Vulkan He'stan is a goldmine for an easy Praetor conversion, complete with a Mantle of the Elder Drake, Iron Halo, and his spear which you can count as a Paragon Blade. Feel free to do whatever you want with the helmet (I made mine helmetless for cross-compatibility), though you may want to consider replacing the flame gauntlet with a shield arm if taking a storm shield, and sourcing the shield itself from either a Saurus Warriors kit or 3rd Party (Firedrakes have theirs on the opposite arm).
Where Covenant of Fire is concerned, the best option with regards to those predator squadrons with only Dragon's Breath weapons as non-compulsory Troops is to only use those side sponsons as overwatch assurance and a 0pt unit tax. With the Dragon's Breath cannon having an 18" range before setting down the narrow end of the flame template as per the Torrent special rule (potentially reaching out to 26" with the template), the vast majority of targets you'll want to hit with it in your shooting phase will generally be too far away for you to use the heavy flamer side sponsons in an offensive capacity anyway. Conversely, being in range to use the side sponsons prevents the Dragon's Breath cannon from taking full advantage of its 18" range, since predator tanks do not have the Power of the Machine Spirit special rule that would allow them to target multiple units.
As for flanking, you may want to consider taking a unit of Seekers in a Rhino or Land Raider due to their Infiltrate special rule, which grants the unit the ability to Outflank. Whether or not they'll be able to take out their marked target, a unit of them packing their default kraken (special-issued) bolters or upgraded with combi-weapons (especially flamers and/or meltas) in the back lines with a land raider transport can be a incredibly effective distraction carnifex when and where it shows up.
And lastly, Terminators. I'm not entirely convinced that normal terminators, let alone Firedrakes, are well-suited for a Covenant of Fire list for the first 3000pts at least, and while that dragonscale storm shield is a really awesome piece of kit for them to have model-wise, it also denies those terminator models the ability to take ranged armaments short of being cheeky with RAW (so long as there's at least 1 terminator in the squad with one... up until precision shots are made, at least). That's not to say it can't work in Covenant of Fire or the Awakening Fire, but a terminator-heavy list is generally better played in Pride of the Legion instead. If anything, you may wish to consider Breacher squads instead in either Rite of War. At 155pts for the bare minimum 10 models (+15 per model up to unit size 20) they're Heavy Line Infantry that can be taken natively as Compulsory Troops in any legion, can take termite assault drills or land raiders as designated transports, can deny a charging opponent their charge attack bonus with their boarding shields, and can take a special weapon for every 5 models in the unit.
A bit of an addendum here:
If you're still really eager to play Vulkan in a mechanized 3000pt game, one (significantly cheaper) option is to take him, a 4-man cataphracti terminator retinue equipped with thunder hammers and dragonscale storm shields (one will have to be a Legion standard bearer and thus can't take the shield), and toss the 5-man unit into a land raider. The whole set-up will run you less than 1000pts.
I'm going with Retinue and not Firedrakes specifically because you can't take both a MSU of Firedrakes (5 Bulky (2) models) and Vulkan (a Bulky (4) model) in a troop capacity 12 Land Raider at the same time. All you end up missing with the Retinue is the Inability to re-roll 1s to hit, really - all Retinue have Weapon Skill 5, 2 Wounds, and 2 Attacks each, and even the ones not wearing terminator armour boast a 2+ save courtesy of artificer armour. Plus, so long as the standard bearer is alive, the unit has the Line Infantry special rule.
Hi, I'm new to HH and more interested in the making and doing of hobby rather than truly competitive play, with that said I'm splitting a box (20 marines, 5 terminators, one praetor) and am wondering what the first 1000 to 2000 points of a Salamanders force could look like with a bias towards interesting characterful conversions. I already have 10 mk3 on srpue, a cailth cataphractii praetor and chaplain, a (very old and in poor condition) space crusade chaos dreadnought, a pile of bits - mostly cc weapons, flamers and meltas with a deimos rhino on preorder. Your thoughts and recommendations would be most welcome!
@@fransaacs Hey, no problem!
When you build an army in Horus Heresy, you're obligated to take 2 Troops choices (these compulsory units must not have the Support Infantry special rule) and 1 HQ choice, and can take up to 3 HQ, 4 Elites, 6 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support, 1 Fortification, and 1 Primarch choices of your choosing. In addition, unless specified otherwise, you may only include 1 model with the Master of the Legion special rule (i.e. Praetors) for every 1000pts spent on the army, you may include Primarchs and Lords of War only if the total army cost is at least 2000pts, and no Primarch or Lord of War may exceed 25% of the total army point cost.
With that in mind, the smallest investment into the unit tax you can do is two MSU (10-man) tactical squads (2 Troops) and a Centurion (1 HQ) for 260 points before upgrades (I personally recommend spending +10 points per sergeant to give them artificer armour, not just for theme but also for gameplay). Once you start adding wargear, additional legionaries (up to 20 marines per tactical squad) or dedicated transports (Rhinos are 35pts before upgrades like pintle-mounted weapons) and Centurion Consul upgrades, you can likely see this jump up to about 500pts for fully mechanized or 600pts for mass foot-slogging infantry.
At 1000pts, this doesn't give you much room to expand beyond basic support tools, of which I'd highly recommend adding either a tactical support squad with flamers (85 for MSU 5-man squad before upgrades, 145 for 10-man, and can take a rhino) or a heavy support squad with heavy flamers (100pts for 5 before upgrades, 175 for 10, can also take a rhino), and you'll probably find a home for the dreadnought in such a list as a 1-model Contemptor Dreadnought Talon (175 before upgrades).
While you *can* alternatively equip the tactical support squad with meltaguns, it's an all-or-nothing upgrade at +15pts per model, and unless you're starving for more points elsewhere in the army (or ran out of Elites slots outside of Covenant of Fire) you're generally better off paying an additional 3 points per model to field a Pyroclast squad of the same size instead. With them, you functionally get access to heavy flamers with an alternative meltagun mode on models that each have artificer armour, 2 wounds and 2 attacks. As fair warning however, The Forgeworld kits for them offer nothing in the way of distinguishing the unit sergeant from the rest of the squad outside of being able to give him a melee weapon.
2000pts is where you can start playing around with some of the fun stuff, and I think you'll find yourself enjoying the conversion work there. Adding on to what I mentioned for 1000pts, a Praetor with paragon blade and dragonscale stormshield (as always, Vulkan He'stan is a superb model base for that conversion) can easily find a home in the list, though you might consider looking at a small bodyguard retinue (one of whom must be a standard bearer) and transport for him. Beyond that, feel free to start playing around with other units. Admittedly, you'll probably want to invest in some means of supporting your short-ranged firepower and have the ability to counter vehicles, so a missile heavy support squad (a 5pt/model upgrade over the heavy flamer version) and/or a rapier battery of quad mortars with shatter shells (up to 3 rapier platforms for 80pts each) might be of interest to you.
Coming back to the Centurion: while he's of decent value on his own at 60 points before upgrades, you generally want to upgrade him into a Consul to make the most out of that HQ slot. For Salamanders, I highly recommend a Chaplain (+35), Champion (+35), Librarian (+45), or Herald (think Company Ancient, +20) as your first Consul, though you may find yourself grabbing a Delegatus (+25) instead if you're looking for a way to bypass the minimum army cost requirement for your first Master of the Legion (and thus a Rite of War). There's others, of course, but those are the ones I'd recommend if you're just getting started. As for equipment, Centurions come stock with a chainsword and bolt pistol, but in addition to normal weapon upgrades the Consul upgrade can include others for free - chaplains gain master-crafted on a power weapon (their crozius arcanum doesn't need to be a power maul), librarians gain force weapons in exchange for a power weapon, bolter (a 2pt addition), or bolt pistol, and champions gain a paragon blade (which despite the name doesn't need to be represented with a bladed weapon on the model).
For further conversion potential, each Salamanders character may take one master-crafted weapon in addition to any they may already have for 10pts (ornate weapons ahoy!), and all independent Salamanders characters and terminator units may take dragonscale storm shields at 10pts and 15pts each respectively to improve their invulnerable saves by 1 (terminator units have to give up their combi-bolters for them). These may be a bit hard to come by if you're slapping it on the left arm however, so you may have to turn to 3rd party suppliers or plucking shields from Saurus Warriors. If you're feeling adventurous though, Stormcast shields with a Green Stuff'd scale pattern can work.
@@liammorgan1413 That's some comprehensive advice. I think I'm going to reserve the space crusade dreadnought for an oldhammer project and look for a more contemporary alternative. A quick assessment of my bits surplus before picking up any new products suggests I can build the required unit tax of 2 10 man tac squads followed by a 5 man tac support flamer squad and a 5 man tac hvy support squad of missile launchers (mix of plastic and resin that was originally intended for a long fangs squad) I've seen mention here of veterans and seekers - 2 wounds and special ammunition seem attractive at first glance - are either worth considering as unit choices within the first 2000pts? Oh, and I'm going to need more transports than just the rhino..... many thanks for your time and consideration.
@@fransaacs Your mileage may vary on the Veterans (115 for 5, 205 for 10) and Seekers (105 for 5, 180 for 10), who are comparable to Vanguard and Sternguard Vets respectively in Vanilla and then some. Veterans (HH) only get the second wound (and artificer armour across the entire unit) when taken as Chosen in a command squad (85 for 3, 193 for 9, includes standard bearer), but otherwise enjoy all the benefits of having access to nearly every non-character infantry weapon in the Space Marine arsenal, WS 5, and 2 attacks before modifiers. The fact that they're predominantly suited to be a melee unit (not that their BS 4 is anything to balk at either) suggests that they're usually best delivered using a transport with the Assault Vehicle special rule, so a land raider or storm eagle are the way to go with them.
Seekers on the other hand you'll need to be mindful of how you equip. Under the new rules, Seekers have access to those special munitions if and only if they retain their special-issue Kraken Bolters. As such, you'll need to decide carefully what you want the squad to go after using the Marked for Death special rule (a Seeker Squad may Mark an opposing unit at the start of the game, allowing them to re-roll failed hits against that target). Kraken Bolters are a good general-purpose weapon for this, though the squad may forego the special ammo for combi-weapons or nemesis bolters (bolter sniper rifles, if you will). In all cases, Seekers also have BS 5, Precision Shot (4+) and Infiltrate, the last of which confers to any dedicated transport they take (which includes rhinos and land raiders by default, hilariously enough). I can also confirm that it's less expensive to field a Seeker Squad with combi-weapons than it is to field a Veteran Squad of identical size and loadout, though it takes up a Fast Attack choice instead of an Elite choice.
Pyroclasts are NOT bulky. That is an absolutely HUGE change! If you want to play salamanders, buy buy buy pyroclasts, and then buy more.
what about Termites?
as a delivery method
Salamanders sadly have access to only three units that can take the termite as a dedicated transport outside an Underworld Assault Rite of War: Veteran Squads, Mortalis Destroyer Squads, and Breacher squads. Of these options, Destroyers can't be taken in either CoF or AF, leaving Veterans and Breachers to populate Elites and Troops choices respectively.
Liam is all over it! Breacher and Veteran squads aren't really doing anything that pyroclasts or tactical squads can't be doing. Termite drills DO rock, though get expensive pretty quickly. Going full termite RoW is definitely an option but I'd probably prefer cheaper (money and points) drop pods? 🤔
@@blackbriargaming5483 Breachers and Veterans have their place, mind you.
Like I mentioned elsewhere, Breachers make most of their +5pts per model over their Tactical brethren by being Heavy Infantry with boarding shields and having access to special weapons, albeit without the ability to take a Rhino as a dedicated transport (Termites and Land Raiders only). A good counter-charge unit that can really shine in Zone Mortalis, and also look good as a phalanx on the tabletop.
Veterans on the other hand are your Vanguard Veteran types - melee-centric with WS5. You probably won't want to be giving them anything more serious than power weapons, though a unit of them with lighting claws can be a pretty nasty blender if and when it gets into combat. However, since disembarking units can only charge if their transport is an Assault Vehicle, your only options for doing so requires investing a Heavy Support slot into a Land Raider or Spartan, or a Fast Attack slot into a Storm Eagle, just to allow them to charge on the dismount. At at least 210 points, it's not cheap.
@@liammorgan1413 I'm excited to read your comment essay! 😅 Just leaving it for when I can give it the concentration it deserves 😊
@@blackbriargaming5483 dammit I bought a termite :(
I definitely feel like pyroclasts are one of the biggest winners for salamanders. They’re such a glow up from what they previously were.
At first I wasn’t sure how to feel about Firedrakes, but after comparing points to a regular catephractii unit, they are superior for their intended role. A similarly equipped catephractii unit costs the same points as firedrakes, and you’re getting +1 WS, reroll 1s, better IWND, and stubborn if no Vulkan.
As an Alpha Legion player I'm looking VERY closely at Pyroclast as my Rewards of Treachery unit!
My Salamanders Primus Medicae model is now useless, but that’s a good thing.
2+ 3++ 5+++, firedrakes are an awesome unit for Death Star. Make sure to bring that spartan.
Re: Firedrakes
Depending on what you intend to use them for, it can actually be better to take a similarly equipped cataphracti bodyguard unit instead. All Retinue have WS5, 2W, 2A, and whereas Firedrakes must have a minimum of 5 models in the squad, Command Retinue come in units as small as three models, one of which being the Legion standard bearer. If you're looking for a way to cram a Bulky (4) primarch into a land raider with some buddies, Retinue are better to take.