StingRay Bass 2-Band (2EQ) vs 3-Band (3EQ) Preamps Explained + Hear the EXACT Sound Difference!
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
- This is a side-by-side shootout of the classic Music Man/Ernie Ball StingRay 2-Band Preamp (2EQ) vs. the current Ernie Ball StingRay 3-Band Preamp (3EQ). All variables are the same except the preamp.
Many StingRay fans have wondered exactly what difference the 2EQ vs 3EQ will make to the tone of their bass. I built the exact preamps as pedals, so that they can easily be A/B'd. Here are the results! Plus a deep dive into exactly what differences exist in the frequency responses of each circuit, and why this makes them sound different.
Please feel free to skip straight to any portions of the video! No hard feelings. :) All of the talking is just to provide context, and more information.
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
01:08 2EQ circuit schematic
01:28 2EQ frequency response (all controls at 0%, 50%, 100%)
02:26 3EQ circuit schematic
02:30 3EQ frequency response (all controls at 0%, 50%, 100%)
03:30 3EQ pedal
03:48 Shootout setup
05:11 2EQ vs 3EQ sound samples (*)
08:42 Analysis of the differences between 2EQ and 3EQ frequency responses
13:00 Conclusion summary
(*) NOTES:
* All sound samples are adjusted for equal volume. If you're wondering why settings with huge boosts don't sound louder than settings with big cuts, this is the reason. I wanted the TONE to be the difference you're hearing, not blowing out your speakers (and eardrums) with sudden boosts! :)
* This video is a re-post. Many thanks to viewer Dimitri Eugensson A., who left me a note about the importance of including the Stingray pickup itself in the simulations, especially for the 3EQ. I thought I was being so smart by carefully isolating the analysis to just the preamps, but his comment was absolutely right - I redid most of this video when I saw how much of a difference the interaction between the pickup and preamps makes. Many thanks Dimitri!!
More info:
Bass used:
2020 Squier Classic Vibe '70s Precision Bass ("Squier-Ray"). No onboard electronics. Pickup: Nordstrand MM4.2. Strings: DR FAT-BEAM FB-40 roundwound.
Recorded direct into a Focusrite Scarlett interface. Only "effect" is some light compression.
If you're interested in the demo bassline, it's:
This Is The Way We Funk With You (Parliament). Bassist: Most likely Cordell "Boogie" Mosson.
Photo credits:
Ernie Ball Music Man StingRay 4 Classic: Ernie Ball Music Man www.music-man.com/instruments...
Ernie Ball Music Man StingRay 4: Ernie Ball Music Man www.music-man.com/instruments...
StingRay Pre-EB 2EQ schematic - By Bajaman. www.freestompboxes.org/viewto...
StingRay 3EQ schematic - By Dominic DeCosa. www.talkbass.com/threads/diy-...
Musicman StingRay Body: Catfish Jim and the soapdish (commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi.... Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license (creativecommons.org/licenses/...)
Ernie Ball Music Man StingRay Special Bass: Ernie Ball Music Man shop.music-man.com/ernie-ball...
Frequency Response of B-string (Fundamental frequency is 247 Hz): Dmitry Berenson, Galen Reeves (people.ece.cornell.edu/land/c...)
Broughton Audio High Pass Filter, Always On High Pass Filter, Low + High Pass Filter: Broughton Audio (www.broughtonaudio.com/)
Mesa Boogie Subway WD-800 Bass Amp: Mesa Boogie (www.mesaboogie.com/en-US/Amp/...)
Guitar pickup resonant peaks: Ledgernote (ledgernote.com/columns/guitar...)
All other images are my own.
Background music: Original (mine). - Hudba
Is there a possibility to have the print layout? Or how did you made it?
Great question - I should have included these links in the description. Pinning this.
See the following links for the circuit board layouts I used:
- 2EQ: From memory, I think I used this one: www.sabrotone.com/request-music-man-on-board-preamps-for-bass-guitar/ (click on the photo for "The Stingray for bass:" - BUT NOTE, C7 SHOULD BE 10uF)
There is also this one, which probably also works fine, and is smaller: www.talkbass.com/threads/sterling-sub-ray5-pickup-and-preamp-mod-thread.1132797/ (1st post on the page, by 59JazzBazz on 2/7/2015 - it's the 1st attachment. BUT NOTE, SAME AS ABOVE, C7 SHOULD BE 10 uF)
- 3EQ: I have a hardcopy printout of the layout that I found and used, because I prefer to use strip boards wherever possible. But wow, I absolutely cannot find it online anymore. It may have been removed. So I took a photo of the hardcopy, and posted it here: i.ibb.co/KWTGpcd/PXL-20231114-183237213.jpg
Here's a more popular version that uses single-hole perfboard: www.talkbass.com/threads/diy-stingray-3eq-preamp.883257/page-4 (scroll down to the post by eukatheude on 1/19/2013)
I used copper strip boards (PCBs), and cut them to whatever size was needed for each layout.
Good luck!
So thankful. I have a Stingray 5 limited edition 2008. But I swapped it out. But now I want to put in the 2 band. Much more the sound I am after. 💪
@@edwinbassThat would be awesome, good luck!
And did you ‘earth ‘ the potentiometers?
@@edwinbassNo, not with a separate wire - I only connected wires to the 3 lugs. The metal housing of each pot comes into direct contact with the metal enclosure, which IS grounded/earthed, so that's how they're all bonded. I checked it with a multimeter and confirmed that there is basically no resistance between the pots and the ground.
But - now that you mention it, the pots in actual StingRay basses are mounted to a metal cavity cover, but yet the factory runs ground/earth wires to the housing of each pot anyway. So who knows? 🙂
I can't think of anything wrong with just doing a quick ground/earth to each pot's housing, just to be safe. Mine just worked fine without them, so I left them as-is.
Good question! Cheers
Bro what is this. People be saying whatever but my man pulled out the receipts. Subbed
🤣🤣 Many thanks!!
My tip for StingRay owners is to unscrew the small screw which fastens the knobs onto the spindle of each pot and re-tighten the knob with that screw at the mid point of travel. This way you have a visual indicator, at a glance, of "centre detent" on your controls. Simple tweak and very useful 😊
I've done this for years. Great suggestion.
Funny you point that out. Did that years ago on my MM Sabre bass.
But I set the screw at mid point, at 6 oclock, meaning i dont even need to look at the pot, since I feel the mid position under my finger. The max position is at 12 o'clock , but I never need to look at it.
Makes zero sense for any modern Stingray that has them all set up that way already. Besides, they have detents at the midpoint that are very easy to feel. It's not an audible click, but very firm.
Love this. I’ve owned about 20 Rays through the years. I only own a 2 band now.
Thanks!! Wow, that is awesome. Wish I could try out that many! I generally like both preamps, but yeah, I would also say the 2EQ is my favorite. 🤘
This video rocks! 2EQ for me, that clanky treble sound drives me nuts. Now I know EXACTLY why. Ignore me I have no friends.
Hey what's the distance from the centerline of the bottom row of pole pieces on your squier ray to the saddles (if the saddles were at the max distance from the neck)? In millimeters?
People make a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. Both sound like stingrays, still, thanks for the detailed explanation
your video is absolute amazing! and it solved my doubt about which preamp to prefer: I definitely prefer the 2-band EQ preamp!
Many thanks!! 🙏 It's great having both options, but I agree - overall, I prefer the 2EQ too. 🤘 Cheers
The 3EQ gives you more versatility, it does have a more modern tone. The 2EQ will give a classic tone.
I got a Status Graphite Empathy, Tobias Growler and a ‘78 Jazz but it’s time to own Stingray. 😊
TQ for the video!
You seriously create the most informative bass content, thanks!
Many thanks!! 🙏
Thanks for this great video man!
Everything is clear. Extraordinarily good video.
I couldn't get happy with the 3 band and now I know why. Fortunately, I've had a clone 2 band preamp for a long time that will finally get installed. Thank you!
Fantastic review!
That was super cool. Thanks!
Great work, thanks!!
Very instructive thanks!
What a job ! Well done and thank you for this comparison and the explanations.
Everything about this is amazing
Great video with the curves explaining what happens.
In the schematic of the 3EQ, I agree that changing the value of the 2.2nF capacitor will move the treble spike (by removing this capacitor we might have the spike in the 10k like in the 2EQ curve).
Increasing both 8.2nF capacitors near the 2.2nF will shift the bass attenuation to lower frequencies (aka more bass). In the 2EQ's schematic, it's a 1uF capacitor, so a hundred times the capacitor of the 3EQ which explains the different bass curve.
According to my tests and simulations, the EQ stage of the 3EQ preamp is pretty flat when all the three potentiometers are at 50% so tuning the 2.2nF and 8.2nF capacitors values may change the sound of the 3EQ to be more like the 2EQ.
in the schematic, wich 2.2nF capacitor must be removed to get the 2eq treble curve?
The one next to the "IN" label in the "3EQ Bass Preamp" schematic from the video
@@mdouchement i did it, and now the treble is closer to the 2eq tone, you're right, i like a lot more this way. Thank you!.
now when i boost the treble i have a little mass noise if i dont touch any metal of the bass... any advice to eliminate it?
Man....I do appreciate the amount of work and effort you put into It...such a comprehensive and detailed study you did, thank very much....
Man .. this is one of the best videos on YT. Thank you SO MUCH!
Thank you!! 🙏 My pleasure!
Fantastic video. Thank you for doing this research. Very educational.
Great content!
This video has a serious content... Thanks for the effort in recreating the EQs for making such a comprehensive comparison... Super professional and deeply investigated...top notch ! 👍
I love this kind of videos, thanks for the freak explanation! Very technically and simple at same time. I am audio engineer and bassist, and it help me a lot.🙋♂
great video and research!
I was considering upgrading my Sterling SUB to 3 band, but this video changed my mind.
Well I took my Ray 4 Sub to Guitar Center to get the Aguilar 3band 18v preamp installed, and boy oh boy. I do not regret it one bit. I had my house shaking. I was looking for something more powerful and I found it. Different strokes for different folks.
Great review.
Thanks!!
@@mikedeeez Btw, do You know what are the differences between onboard preamps in Stingray (modern), Stingray5 and EBMM Sterling?
I’m feeling the classic sound of the 2band EQ . Especially with the low end. Thanks for the side by side.
Nice job Mike. Very clear presentation and so interesting about the built in EQ curves regardless of knob position. Perhaps some cut at 4K will allow my 3-band to sound more like my 2-band? Always use an external HPF so the low end should be similar.
Would be interesting to see the same comparison between 3EQ Classic and Special.
Great video anyway!!!!
Great explanation! Thx!
Amazing and informative video. Thank you for sharing! I’m very curious to learn how the Classic would compare to the Special model…
Great piece of work. I've been playing a 2 EQ MusicMan since the 1980s, and this has clarified things I've been unsure about to this day. Explains, among other things, why it gets rather boomy when the bass is raised, and will help me coordinate the controls on the bass itself with the mid-range parametric on my amp. Thank you.
Always thought I was a 2 band eq type of guy. Now I’m sure. Gets that vintage vibe. Cheers mate
YES ! I was only a minute into this video before it got deleted, and I was kicking myself for not catching it quicker. But now it's back !
So sorry about that! It was really worth it - the last thing I want to do is spread misinformation. Glad it's corrected now. Thanks for watching it again now!
@@mikedeeez Totally worth it, this is a GOLDMINE of good information. Thank you and keep up the STELLAR work !
Same for me, lol!
@@joecal2360 Many thanks!!
@@SkibidiEugensson Thanks!! I gave you a shout-out in the video description, by the way - thanks again for your comment about the 3EQ! Very much appreciated 👍 Cheers
I'm really glad I found this video. I recently bought a Ray35 used at a great price and have been enjoying it, but something was "missing." No matter how I tweaked the 3eq I couldn't seem to emulate the players I was hoping to. Now I know why, and will probably replace the 3eq with a more classic sounding eq (John East seems to make one).
I'm a little disappointed I didn't find this video sooner. Most people online will swear they sound different, but EBMM seems to say they function the same when the mid knob is neutral. Clearly thats not the case.
Awesome. Would love to see a video of the 3 band without that capacitor, or with different capacitors! So curious.
thank you!
Cool post. Once again you prove, more isn’t better.
Still prefer the p sound over either MM.
Nice, I guess this is why I like the 3 band eq more
Thanks, amazing content, really informative! As far as I'm concerned, the "fall" below 70 Hz is not an issue (yes, I'm one of the many HPF users...) but the resonant peak at 4KHz is pretty annoying... have you considered a variable capacitor to "play" with the peak? I understand for what you say that the resonant peak is moved down to 4KHz by the capacitor, so presumably a variable one can move the frequency up, out of the audible range, with a resulting curve very similar to the 2EQ... but it would also be fun to play with the peak intensity...
I own 2 StingRays with 3EQ which are instant Flea tone for me! However, I need to grab that Classic with 2EQ for Bernard Edwards and Louis Johnson tone!
Great video Mike! first time I seen someone build a musician pre-in a pedal version. I would love to own one of each :) Do you still make them?
I love StingRays and play almost all (one pickup) models.
I like both the 2EQ and 3EQ models, although they sound very different.
I do like and use the mid-control on the 3EQ basses!
I also have a Limited Edition Gilded White Classic StingRay 4. It’s control layout and tone are unique but stock for this specific model: it’s a 2EQ bass, but it has four controls. The fourth control (usually the bass control on 3EQ models) is a push/pull and doesn’t do anything in the down position.
In the up position though, the bass becomes a passive bass and the control becomes a passive tone control. The output in both active and passive mode is almost identical if you don’t boost the bass and treble too much.
I really love the Classic series 4 strings, but they’re so heavy! I can’t play four one hour sets two times a week with one of these beasts... A real (wo)man’s bass!!
I like classic StingRay tones from the ‘70’s the most (besides Tony Levin’s tones of course... 😉), like Bernard Edwards, John Deacon, ACDC and the short era in wich the bassist of Supertramp played a StingRay, right between his Jazz bass and his G&L’s.
I can get those classic sound easily with both the 2EQ and 3EQ basses and a little help from strings and amp.
I really, really dislike the more modern StingRays with the horrible preamp from the beautiful country of Finland! But, the youngsters might love that ‘sound’. 😄
I have StingRays with different pickup magnets also (ceramic/ alnico) both in 4 and 5 strings. They too have different tones!
My main basses are P’s, 😁...
🖖
That bass (Limited Edition Gilded White Classic StingRay 4) sounds super cool, wow. I love the 4th knob as an optional push-pull passive tone control, that is awesome. I really wish all active basses had this, but I know it's not always possible to fit one more knob 🙂 Also, I see it has the string mutes, which I actually really like. Sounds like a "best of all worlds" Stingray!
I only own one Musicman it's a StingRay Classic 2 band, best Ray tone ever 😊 btw I posted a tip in comments, a useful adjustment you can do to all your basses which you might appreciate. Best wishes
This was soo awesome!!!! Had to throw ya that sub! Do you build pickups also? If so could you build a ceramic MM pup? Thanks again for this! 🤘😎
Many thanks!! Oh man, I wish I could - I know a decent amount about pickups, but BUILDING them is something I don't have experience with. (At least not yet - maybe someday!) I wish I could find a 4-string Stingray pickup made with ceramic instead of alnico myself, so I could do a comparison, but all the ones I can find are alnico. WAIT - I just did a search and found one, I guess Seymour Duncan makes one! www.seymourduncan.com/single-product/90s-music-man-ceramic-4-string
If I can swing it, maybe I'll think about picking one up myself someday, and do a video just on alnico vs ceramic.
By the way, your custom Stingray with the J pickups is awesome! Sounds great!
@@mikedeeez yea the ceramic is my favorite! If you ever go to build one let me know! I’ll be the first to buy it! I’ll have to look into the Seymour!
Thanks homie! It’s a super powerful bass! I really dig your squire one as well! The boards you built are amazing! I’d totally buy one of your stingray pedals! Just because! Lol
@@bassimprovjams3772you should look into the EMG MMHZ pickup, it is spec'd identical to the traditional Stingray pickup (same resistance), with the only differences being ceramic magnet and blades instead of the individual pole pieces.
@@SkibidiEugenssonthanks man I’ll look into it, and that works because the ceramic is my favorite like I was saying in the comment above, I appreciate that!
Note the pre-amps were redesigned about 2018, according to Five Watt World's vid on the Stingray, including a change to 18v operation, so likely yet another variation in frequency responses.
I use the Hartke HD75 combo which has a slider style 7 bandEQ, and the normal parametric 3 band. With the newer 3 band active controls in my Stingray Ray34, I can't imagine having lees control of more frequencies? It may not be the biggest, baddest 8×10 stack, with thousands of watts. But it proves you dont need it 90% percent of the time. I mic it with a 421 and send it through a Yamaha mixer and out to the 1000watt Yamaha mains. Sounds kick ass. People often wonder and ask, is that all your using? Yep.
I would love to see a comparison between the MM 2EQ, and an old G&L L1000.
I remember playing one of those G&L's back in rhe mid 90's and even though it sounded really nice I choose a Japanese P-Bass because that G&L was a metallic blue which I didn't care for 😅😅😅.
The only thing I don't like about the 3EQ is the treble coloration. I'd like to hear it without that cap in front.
It might also be interesting to note how the switch works and how it interacts with the 3 band EQ. What do you think about? Thanks for the video and the work you did
Look at all that extra bandwidth on the 2EQ! I have always gone for the old ones
THAT SHIRT!!!!!!!! BEST, SHIRT, EVER!!!!!! 🖖
Very interesting. Do you happen to know if the sterling by MM models still have the same preamp circuit or has it been modified for those less expensive models.
that´s a good review!! i´m not a stingray fan (I like spector the most) but this video is really helpfull for those who wonder wich one can work better for their tastes.
Many thanks!! Nice - Spectors are terrific basses 👍
Is the 2EQ pedal you used in this test close to the 2EQ used on most Sterling SUB Series Stingrays these days, or do you find much of a difference with the pre EB 2EQ preamps?
Great vid! Do you happen to sell those pedals? Interested in the 2EQ. Thanks.
Many thanks!!
I wish I could say I did, but I'm afraid I don't - it was just a one-off project. What I might recommend is the Master Effects Manta Ray Bass Preamp (www.mastereffectspedals.com/mantaray). It's the same thing, i.e. a 2EQ or 3EQ in a pedal - you can pick either one. I used to own the 2EQ version. It was quite good. I traced the circuit and it has a few minor differences from the standard MM 2EQ preamp, but these changes are things that have been popular "mods" anyway, so depending on your preferences it might be even better. Plus they're located there in Canada. 🙂
Good luck!!
great video, thanks. Would be nice if the "samples adjusted for equal volume" graphic wasn't blocking the frequency axis.
Viewers: you get a peek of em at 7:17. Looks like that low end rolloff on the 3EQ starts at around 70Hz...
Side note: I'm always surprised by frequency response comparisons like this. I would never even dream of doing such a narrow +20db treble boost in a mix...
Oh no... I can't believe I never noticed that! Ugh, bummer... 🤦♂
Apologies all, and yes, you're right about the graphic at 7:17. Good catch, and many thanks for the comment.
For additional general reference - The frequency axis (the "x" axis) starts at exactly 20 Hz on the left, and goes to exactly 20 kHz on the right (i.e. typical range of human hearing). And it's a log scale, so the exact middle point is approximately ~620 Hz.
Thanks!!
All Kudos to you for taking time out of your life to feature this info for Stingray or other MusicMan Basses! 👍🏾🙏🏾😉I’m getting the Indonesian-assembled version (Sterling Ray 34 Natural Stain) as to get to finally own a “Stingray” 🤘🏾😁I currently own a “Bongo Bass” MusicMan,..and now thanks to your efforts..🙏🏾✨🎸I can understand the circuitry of the Pre-Amp as well as their PUs in order to get the various “Stingray” tones I desire. Can’t wait to get a hold of my Sterling version‼️🤣☝🏾🎸✨🎶The Bongo is great! ..a nice versatile MusicMan Bass, unique and powerful!! ..but I just gotta have a Stingray Bass as well❣️👍🏾☺️Thanks for doing this,..and you may wanna consider marketing those Pre-Amp Boxes to recoup the cost of your efforts and profit via Stingray-owner interests‼️There shouldn’t be any Copyright infringement cause other companies make MM similar PUs and Preamps to profit so….👌🏾Great Vid! b(‘_
..and I prefer the 2 tone control Pre-Amp version‼️The “Classic “ sound/tone ..!!✨🎸🎶👏🏾🤣
What pickup position / location relative to the scale length have you chosen in your build?
Has there been a change over the years to what it was in 76?
Would love to see the new preamp in the Specials compared
Great video!! 2 band better. I have a StingRay Ernie ball 1992, 2 bands EQ. The input jack attached to the electronics produces a lot of noise and a luthier did not know how to repair it. Then they ruined the pickup by adding glue, in an attempt to insert the sharp magnets. I was thinking of buying a Sterling SUB because of the 2 band preamp, and the Sterling StingRay 34 because of the alnico pickup. Do you think thats a good option or maybe I should buy John East 2 band preamp + Aguilar pick up? Or you can sell me a preamp and pickup that you build. 😊
Would the Joe Dart Stingray work since it only has a volume control and no pre amp? This was really cool.
I like the “power” of the bass response of the 2 band in isolation with headphones, but I imagine that as soon as you take it on a gig or into a studio, the sound guy is immediately cutting your lowest frequencies and probably boosting the percussive parts of the highs, the exact thing the 3 band was probably designed for.
Hello,
I don't know if you're gonna see this comment, but I have a question to which I would really be grateful if you can help me. with an answer I see on the 3band EQ there is a high mid/high frequency boost that peaks on the graph and is quite audible in real life as well. Would you be able to tell me what that frequency is? Thanks a bunch
Sure thing - it's approximately 4 kHz.
Cheers
I have a 2007 stingray and I've always thought it has way too much high end. Especially through my galleon Krueger legacy 800. So how can I fix this? I have a great bass tech. Maybe he could change the circuit in it or something?
have to say that the 2 band eq sounds better at every setting. at least to my ears... maybe that's why I own 2 vintage Stingrays???
May I ask - the “50%” - is that 50% _boost_ or is that “center detent”, e.g. 0% cut or boost?
Absolutely, good question. 50% = "center detent", i.e. right in the middle of the TOTAL knob travel.
0% is all the way counterclockwise, 100% is all the way clockwise.
@@mikedeeez good stuff, thank you!
Hello, you make very good videos! I want to tell you that I have a Fender Precision Bass Big Block. I don't know if you know it, but maybe with your knowledge of electronics you can give me some information about its pickup and electronics and possibilities. I hope not to bother. greetings
This settles it, I'd rather have the two-band EQ if I ever end up with a StingRay style instrument. The three-band's presence peak and bass cut don't do it for me. Unless I were to heavily use distortion, where those EQ tweaks can help make it sound clearer. No wonder I never bonded with my StingRay 5 with the three-band EQ, I just never felt it like I should.
2 band eq ...top
Not a fan of the way the 3-band sounds...maybe because I played a '78 Ray for over 20 years before buying a 5 string. I think it's that upper mid clack that's baked into it.
I just find the 2-band more musical. I had to ditch the 3-band in my 5er and put in a John East MMSR to get it playable.
The MM Classic V had a 2 band EQ, it was the best sounding 5 string I've ever played
I sold my USA Stingray Special because I hated the 3-band and missed the 2-band on the non-USA one I had before
Why does the G string sound wonky?
That's the thing all Stingrays "suffer" from.
It's a quirk with all stingrays.
I sold my 3 band. Too Zingy / glassy sounding. I wish I would have kept it though
The fret noise buzz and clicks are realy anoying.
Never liked the 3 band. They put that high pass filter in the front the chokes out all the punch
the 3 is really tough to dial in and does not sound good. Both are lacking imo, the phase shift is out of control, id rather go onboard preamp w/o EQ into a real outboard EQ, like a GML. If im recording, get rid of everything and go direct like the control sound here.
Volume on 10. Bass on 10. Treble on 10. Let the soundperson do their job. (everything is "dimed")
Samples with fret buzz on almost every note maybe aren't the best thing to compare tones with.
What happened to your head? Lmao
3EQ sounds terrible, like an AM radio. Who would want to play a bass guitar with no bass?