Steel Frame vs Carbon Frame, How Geometry Affects Performance
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
- Part 2 of my thoughts on the differences between Steel and Carbon Frames. In this video we discuss Geometry, Tire Pressure and Manufacturing Processes. How do those variables contribute to the differences in the way bikes Perform and Feel.
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#bianchi
#pinella
#MegaSet
#carbonbike
#bikebuild
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This video has been edited for the following reason. In a section where I describe the process of converting steel rods into steel tubes for bike building, I inaccurately used and described the process as drilling or drilling out. The proper term and process is of using a mandrell to internally shape and butt the tubes. To some, it may seem like a technicality, but I want to ensure that we always use proper terminology on the channel.
My sincerest apologies for any misinformation or confussion... steel frames are still awesome and the process of building the tubes is even more awesome now.
Low tier steel< low tier carbon.
Cheep bad carbon frames are distantly superior in every way including comfort and durability than cheap steel bicycles.
And let's talk about vintage bikes. Anything older than 10 years is rusting. Anything older than 30 years is comprised through -rusted and dangerous to ride. I am a little sick of people pretending steel is real. Steel bikes have a 10 year time limit if they are high in chrome, and low chromium steel has more like 5 years, especially if not coated inside.
Most steel bike repair is for speed limits below 25mph, I would never ride a repaired steel frame over 30mph in a downhill. I wouldn't mind riding a cracked carbon frame downhill at 30 because they do not fail instantly, they give you signs well before total failure.
Old rusted steel bikes have literally collapsed under me.
@@benbraceletspurple9108 depends which steel you are talking about, I have 1992 Peugot Prestige made of Reynolds 708 that I ride often when I bought the frame I had treated it with rustol inside the head tube inside the tube and in the bottom bracket as well on the stays which are partly chromed. I have also another bike which is a Raleigh pro race bike made of 753 with no chrome and which doesn't show a single once of rust. If you are not doing preventive maintenance on your bikes or don't check for sources of rust, then it can become a problem. A talented frame builder will repair any steel frame bike. With carbon, it is just another plastic bike that if seriously cracked can be fatal to its rider.Steels like Dedacciai Dr Zero, Columbus Genius, Columbus Overmax and Reynolds 853 are enough solid and durable to provide you a solid an durable frame.
@@benbraceletspurple9108My YOUNGEST Reynolds 531 steel frame is 24 years old and it has no rust at all. I have 5 other older steel bikes. Not ONE has any rust. You must treat your steel bikes very badly.
You have a great teaching style. I just learned a lot about steel construction. Thank you!
Thank you clarion👍🏾
A good addition to the last video. As a smaller rider, I have found through about 10 bikes that a shorter chainstay (420) make the bike feel like less of a boat through the apex of turns and also turns over easier going uphill.
Thanks for that insight StevenR👍🏾
Very addictive info for a guy with a cheap coscto bike. Need to upgrade, great info
Thank you James👍🏾
Hey Luis, Overall this was a great video, though, I you missed some key points. I have been hobby bicycle frame builder since 1988. Of the key points, let us start off with materials. How materials are judged for use in a bike frame is by Tensile strength, Elastic modulus and weight. In steel and aluminum how you affect tensile strength and to some point elastic modulus is through alloying the metal. In carbon how you affect the strength of the carbon is by refining and increasing the modulus of the carbon. For instance in steels some common alloying elements are Chromium, Vanadium, molybdenum and manganese. In Aluminum those alloying elements are zinc, silicon manganese, magnesium and copper. In carbon fiber the way to increase the strength is to refine the actual microscopic fibers that make up the threads this is done with heat and pressure, the fibers are smoothed out and made smaller and smaller so that there are more fibers per thread. Hence in the video you talked about the different strengths of carbon plies that can be added to a frame like puzzle pieces.
Next the mechanical strength of any tube is directly i related to the diameter of the tube, thickness of the tube does play a part but the thinner you can make the tube the lighter it is. This point is true for Aluminum, Carbon Fiber and steel As the diameter of the tube increases you can make the tube wall thinner to a point. There is some point that the tube wall gets so thin that it can collapse. This is where in your video you talked about butted tubes. Double butted is where the tube ended are thicker than the middle section, in a triple butted tube one can have three different thickness butts as the diagram you displayed showed but it can also just have three different thicknesses, say one butt that is heavier than the other butt so a tube with three different thicknesses rather than two . Back to thickness of tubes and how they can be so thin that they collapse, yes, It is true for carbon frames. NO do not squeeze the tube of a carbon frame as that can actually damage the tube. Now in some very light carbon bikes the top tube and the seat stays can be so thin that say sitting on the top tube can collapse it, some of these tubes on the very light bikes are only two to three carbon plies thick. The thickness of a carbon tube is also a reason why it is so important to use a torque wrench for anything that has a bolt fastener that wraps around a carbon tube. Too much force and you can collapse a carbon tube. The real magic of a carbon as a material is that you can shape it almost anyway that is desired, hence the shapes of tubes on carbon bikes.
You talked about geometries of bikes. How you talked about geometry is kind of a "Cliff's Notes" version. There was at least in my opinion one fallacy in your talk about geometries. That one fallacy in my opinion was seat-tube angle. It is my opinion that seat-tube angle plays NO part in the rigidity or compliance of a frame. The rear triangle makes a rigid structure, the diameter and location that the seat stays are attached to the seat-tube make a far bigger difference in the rigidity/compliance of the rear triangle than the seat-tube angle does. As a for instance the more upright the seat-tube is the longer the seat-stay if attached at the seat-tube/top-tube junction hence the more tube to flex. Seat-tube angle has more to do with bike fit than anything, it has to do with the femur/thigh length of the rider. This is why smaller frames have seat tube angles of 73.5/74 to sometimes as steep 75 degrees and larger frames the seat-tube is around 72 degrees.
How a bike rides is a mix of these parts of the geometry; wheelbase, head-tube angle combined with fork rake/offset, and bottom-bracket drop. Of these parts of the geometry the most important part is head-tube angle combined with fork rake contributes more than anything with how "twitchy" the bike rides. To leave out fork rake is only one part of the equation. The steeper the head tube and the less fork rake makes the bike feel twitchy...but for instance if you increase the fork rake you slow the steering down. So fork rake/fork offset is uber important to how a bike rides. Actually those two measurements make what is called trail. Trail is the ultimate number that is used to get an idea of how the bike will feel...twitchy vs relaxed. How bottom-bracket drop plays in is the lower that number the higher the center of gravity and the higher the center of gravity is the more unpredictable the bike can feel, the higher that number is the more stable the bike will feel.
A bicycle frame is an engineered structure...it can be made stable to the point that it is hard to turn or so twitchy that it turns too easily. So a builder/manufacturer has to engineer in stability and un-stability which give the characteristics that are looked for.
As to your part of bike frame construction, UC-Davis did a test decades ago on which type of construction method of a bike was best. They tested Lugged, fillet brazed and TIG welded. (by the way, TIG is Tungsten Inert Gas welding). The results of the test were kind of interesting. You are correct in that lugged construction gives the builder limited options.
I hope you have not minded me chiming in on your great video. I do love your channel and look for new content all the time
You may want to try some lower pressure in those 30mm tires. Running them at 80 is like running a 25 at 110. I weigh 140lbs and run my 30's in the high 60 to low 70 psi.
I think you live in Georgia, you may want to check out a custom frame builder in Agusta, his name is Nate Zukas and he builds some amazing bikes.
I may also tell you to check out Time bikes they have some construction videos that will blow your mind as they are one of the few manutacturers that weave their own carbon.
czcams.com/video/5bQQqJ3r20E/video.html
Hi George! Thank you for sharing this, it is a helpful discussion.
No, I do not mind you sharing everything... in fact I welcome the discussion.👍🏾
In doing these videos I keep the context super simple for time constraints and because it is serving as an intro to newer and intermediate cyclists that these themes exist... and the rabbit hole of geometry is exhaustive.
I will push back on one reference you made though😁. In speaking of seat tube angle, I mentioned the plushness of the ride, not the rigidity or lack there of it contributes to... so I believe that is correct, but let me know if I am wrong.
I am in Florida actually, but am familiar with Nate's work... and yes, his builds are exquisite.
But thank you thank you thank you 🙏🏾 for watching, sharing your thoughts and supporting the channel.👍🏾
Hey Luis I discovered your channel recently and wachted all your videos. You have great communicating skills and you make things easy and understandable even for non english native speakers like myself. Great collection of bikes you got! I have 2 bikes, one carbon more aero and the other is alloy. I agree with you on how the bikes perform according to the different geometries and material. Big thanks from Spain.
Gracias Alberto! I am glad you found the channel and watched👍🏾
The old French bikes, 72 x 72 head angle, seat angle was the classic road race bike. Then came the 70's and the Italians would use a 73, 74 degree seat tube angle. Then the Japanese came out with the "fast" 75 degree seat tube angle which became very popular for Crit racing. The Tange tubing that the Japanese used was on par with anything the European's were producing and just as light! The Suntour derailleurs shifted faster with their slant parallelogram design. Campy was still owned the "snob" factor, but the Suntour's were lighter and shifted better. Fuji made a machine that was ready to take on all comers when one lined up for the race. I rode my old PX-10 and it was definitely not a "quick" machine. With the trail that it had on the fork it was always a little bit twitchy though. I remember also when the uni-crown fork came out. Great segment Luis, once again, steel = lifetime bike!
Thanks for the trip down memory lane Ron! That was great
I remember Suntour superb Pro was around when I came into cycling... and the swith from the lugged fork to the unicrown. Thanks again👍🏾
Make more videos about anything because you have a way of getting the point across. Awesome.
Thank you Mario🙏🏾
That is very kind of youbto say👍🏾
Luis the more I see of your vids the more I’m impressed with your clarity of explanation, use of knowledge and supporting graphics.
The irony of the modern bike world is that new entrants (and some older ones too) really need to see your content. I’m all for riders making knowledgeable and informed decisions as it will provide them with a much happier cycling life. ‘ If you don’t know…….you don’t know ‘……….so I guess it’s up to the rest of us to guide people towards the channel. Love its message and positivity . Lots of good things here all riders should know. Chapeau to you Sir 👏👏👏
Thank you Kevin. Yes... anything we can do to have this conversation with cyclist is needed and appreciated. Thanks for sharing👍🏾
I'm so glad I found your channel,
I have a red bianchi that I bought in
2001, it was all campy, Voliche .
It was their entry level racing bike at the time. And the up grade to that bike, was black carbon forks, I could afford the up grade at the time, and now looking back I'm glad!
A couple yrs later I up graded to campy couras bb, headset, and crank, I've never raced but just loved to ride with groups or buy my self!
Now I'm 61, retired, just put new tires on my Campion, ? Cleaned it up, It looks brand new,
I miss the road bikes between 1985-1995, they were true works of
Hand bilt Art. I had a blue pinirello, trevesio, in 1984, could not afford the whole bike, so I just bought the frame, built it up over 2 yes,
Anyway sorry, for the ramble, I wish I still had that one, but it got stolen.
Any thank you for all the great information, I'm sticking with STEEL!
Thank you for sharing this. I had a 1998 Campionne and really enjoyed it👍🏾
Please someone give this man a proper microphone and some sound treatment for that room he's in! I absolutely love your videos and your take on cycling related stuff, this is exactly the type of cycling content that's been missing from youtube. But please please pleeeaase have someone help you with the audio, your voice could sound sooo much better with proper equipment :)
Sending all my love and respect!
Thank you Thomas. I truly appreciate your feedback. No excuses, we will do better as we are working to make this a quality operation. Thank you 🙏🏾
@@thegoodwheel No, seriously,, Thank you! Thank you for making awesome content :)
Awesome explanations of bike geometry! Best I've seen yet.
Thank you D in DC👍🏾
Sir, you have good taste in bicycles. I love my vintage Italian aluminium racers but have never tried a proper steel frame like yours. Not many talk about the geometry but like you say it makes almost all the difference in the world.
Thank you Christoforo👍🏾
Excellent video and thank you for saying what I been saying for years.
👍🏾
Please keep making your videos. They are so informative and I appreciate your enthusiasm and personal commentaries. I hope to see/meet you at the 2023 One Love ride. Peace, Chris
Thank you Chris! I sure do plan on being there👍🏾
Well explained! Very interesting topic. Also, your comparisons and descriptions gave a good insight in what one can expect from each material, and how big the differences really are. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts William👍🏾
what an amazing channel ! i have learned so much since subscribing. thanks!
Thank you Thomas👍🏾
Colnago C40! My favorite bike ever! I have owned 3, and my current one, I will never sell. Which is your favorite bike you have ridden?
It really is probably the Pinella... but a close second is a Look 595 I owned. It did everything great. Thanks for sharing about your C40👍🏾
Awesome video and great presentation of information. I appreciate your attention to detail and caring enough to edit/update the video.
Really interested in your thoughts on what makes a great wheel wether it's carbon or aluminum and what to consider when upgrading a wheel set.
Hi Adrian! Thank you for watching.
For me quality wheels begin with quality of bearing system. Then a good well designed rim. Weather carbon for aero and weight or aluminum box section for that quality feel is really based on the application👍🏾
I'd like to see you do a similar video on wheels. Everyone talks about carbon wheels from everything from road bikes to gravel and mtn bikes. But the cost of upgrading makes it a hard sell.
Hi Joe! New video idea noted👍🏾
Thanks for explaining the physics behind riding a bike. Steel is my new found love.
👍🏾
Great video. You covered the REAL things that have the biggest impact on the performance and feel of a bike.
Thank you John👍🏾
I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned it, but I like steel bikes because they're the ones I don't get bored with. I bought my 8th road bike in my life a while ago and chose steel, because out of all the ones I had owned previously, a steel bike was the one I actually missed and regretted selling. I can't say the same for any of the aluminum or carbon bikes I've owned before.
Thanks for sharing that Brian👍🏾
This is great information for riders. Thank you for taking the time to give us this video. And you have a great communication style. I wish I could make a video like this.
I've found that people really under estimate steel frames. I showed up to a donkey label team ride with a steel bike and got the comment, bringing a knife to a gun fight. And in another fast group ride people questions if a modern lug frame could hang.
I've ridden the early carbon tube Treks and it was like a noodle bike, which can be fun but it doesn't feel fast.
Thank you Aaron. Keep showing on your steed my friend 👍🏾
Nice thorough teaching, walked away with some knew information.
Thank you Andre! I appreciate you watching👍🏾
Your knowledge of the bike manufacturing process is vast! I love learning about the many types of manufacturing process. I own Aluminum and carbon frames. My 2017 Trek Domane gives me a soft ride. It's not as twitchy as the Trek 5000 but the Domane is fast. I don't realize my speed until I'm done with my ride and look at my stats. My Trek 1000 is going to be 32 years old and is still going strong. It is my go to for rails to trail rides or to get around town on. Anyway, I really appreciate your videos!
Thank you George! I appreciate you sharing your ride experience👍🏾
Amazing content! Well done!
👍🏾
Yes you are right about the TVT frame Greg Lemond rode it in 1989.
Thanks Mark👍🏾
Great Video, I am enjoying your video, keep it up!
Thank you Jon👍🏾
Man I love your content & your first video prompted me to buy a vintage moots vamoots- it’s still in the post but it’s everything my carbon bike isn’t & looking forward to riding it
That is awesome Dale! Moots is on my short must have list👍🏾
@@thegoodwheel it’s been on my shortlist for a while but honestly shelved the idea until your video sparked my imagination. It would be cool if you did a video on the restoration & parts selection on the Mega and Pinella too
Very informative. Thank you!
Thank you Travis👍🏾
thank you. great explanations
You are welcome! Thanks for watching 👍🏾
Thanks so much, learned so much from this single video
Hi KungFuKen! I am glad to hear that👍🏾
A very educational video...thanks.
Thank you mydoto👍🏾
Very interesting, great video. I started riding steel in 1983. A Japanese Miyata, steel frame, triple butted, and then rifled inside. Looking back it was actually too stiff and had no beneficial flex. Beneficial flex is where the rear of the frame flexes under torque and then straightens back out, thereby pulling on the chain and aiding in forward propulsion. I first noticed and learned about that on carbon frames. Something many people have never heard about or talk about. Carbon is simply the fastest but not neccessary for everyone...
Thank you for sharing that insight Christian👍🏾
Interesting. I had tested an old Koga/Miyata as a spare bike over a rolling 20 mile course, and while it was a very well made bike, I wound up not buying it for just those reasons. I have a couple of bikes made with Dedaccaia 0.1, and those even with skinny sew-ups at 110/100 psi are a much kinder ride.
I've been riding for over 40 years and have owned or tried steel, aluminium, titanium and carbon. Even an aluminium frame with carbon seat stays. Not being a competitive rider, in pure speed terms I have never noticed a measurable difference in any of the materials. Some of the steel frames I have tried have been harsh and ditto for titanium and (especially early) aluminium ones. My stable is now 2 aluminium and 2 steel ones. All are comfortable and in different ways a joy to ride. However, the latest addition to the harem is Reynolds cheapest tubing (520) and of lugged construction and it is the one that puts the biggest smile on my face. Partly it's the geometry but mostly it's that beneficial flex you mention. It's not the lightest bike, but still light enough. It can run with stiff wheels and still not beat you up and it is sure as hell quick! That flex also positively encourages extra rider input.
Very nice video and way of presenting! Also same views on bikes :) I ride steel, titanium and carbon frames and prefer steel, it puts smile on my face every time.
Thank you stibara101👍🏾
Hay Luis, first Thank you for making awesome content. I agree with you 100%. I'm passion cyclist, ride for fun and joy. My curent ride is 30 years old steel bike, and if I ever could buy new bike, it will be endurance steel bike. Regards from Bosnia.
Hi Zoran! Thanks for watching from Bosnia my friend 👍🏾
Luis, I agree whole heartedly with your concluding statement. Be safe... 🚴♀🚴♂🚴
Thanks for watching Jesús👍🏾
IMO - Steel and titanium bikes just look so damn GOOD !!! Old school videos of steel/titanium bikes at Paris Roubaix still are the apex of cycling . . . and yes I ride mostly carbon bikes these days . . . Great vid as always !!!
Thank you Edward! I appreciate you sharing that👍🏾
Outstanding content! 🙏🙏🙏 I was told by a bike mechanic that carbon fiber begins to weaken after 5 or 6 years of steady riding, not sure how true that is.
My boss recently worked on his buddy's Willier, who said his front disc brake rubs whenever he turns left. Turns out his fork has fatigued.
When I asked him about the fork's age, he told me it was 2 years old and I kind of dropped my jaw because carbon supposedly has good fatigue resistance.
Older carbon frames, yes, this does happen to them since carbon tech back then wasn't as advanced as it is now, but this is a 2020s carbon bike.
Hi Rob, I am not sure. Many swap out or upgrade their bikes quickly that it may be difficult to quantify.
@@yonglingng5640 Most unusual to hear that as the explanation, many other potential causes. In general terms carbon is more susceptible to impact damage but not subject to fatigue distinct from the case for aluminium or steel. However plenty of 20 year plus bikes out there in al, steel and at the quality end of the carbon offerings back in the day.
On Q of carbon durability, if you ignore the early experimental years there’s a strong argument, always subject to the caveat of build quality - I must stress that point, that carbon bikes from the mid 90’s , 2000’s are more durable than many of today and the race for super light bikes. Simple physical reason………as the tech was relatively new they generally used more material a sort of engineering insurance policy. There’s very little margin for error with some super light bikes sold today in certain cases. It boils down to is it fit for purposes you put it to. 👍
@rob2093 Agree this is a great channel. Concerning the bike mechanic you mention suggest they visit Leuscher Teknik for quality tuition on carbon matters as the current line of thought ‘looks less than ideal’.
Thumbs up always, I ride more often on my Colnago Super ( steel frame) after watching your videos. I’m really convinced that it performs better than my carbon fiber bike.
The cool thing about riding a vintage Colnago is your'e riding a vintage Colnago, then park it in the lounge and it's a work of art.
Nice bike! Thanks for watching Harold👍🏾
Hi. I dig your content, man! I please keep doing what you are doing. ❤
I already have an aluminium and a carbon bike.
The carbon one is an Orbea Orca OMR. I am now looking to get a steel bike (maybe from Stelbel or Baum) but it gets overwhelming with different types of steel to choose from.
There’s mainly steel and stainless steel. Would you mind doing a content to cover on the various different types of steel and how it affects ride feel and performance, please?
Thank you Arif! Such a video is definitely in the tickler. Thank you for watching👍🏾
Your conclusion is 100% spot on. Enginerds figured out how geometry affects the way a bike handles more than half a century ago. The math hasn't changed. The way a manufacturer manipulates that math and incorporates it with material choice, is what the average rider feels. In my opinion, the biggest revolution in frame building has been the gradual increase in steer tube diameter. As manufacturers went from 1in threaded, to 1in threadless, to 1 1/8th threadless, and now tapered steer tubes, they have been able to increase the front end stiffness and that taught sensation a rider feels under braking or divebombing a corner. When I'm really pushing my Pinarello Montello in corners, I can feel a bit vague when it's under load. The curved fork blades will even flutter a smidge if my brake pads aren't toed in. My '92 Cannondale R900 has a brand new 1in Columbus carbon fiber fork, and the difference between turning the two is night and day. My Tarmac S-Works with a tapered steer tube is the king of them all. The three frames have geometry differences, but they're all top end race frames of their era, so there's more similarities than differences. My first road bike was a 2010 Specialized Allez and its fatal flaw was high speed descents (40-ish MPH), where its head tube angle/height would literally scare me to death. It felt twitchy, vague, and even gave me speed wobbles once. It was stiffer than my Montello or even my R900, but the front end geometry was dialed toward stability at lower speed, comfort, and no toe-overlap. Despite my Montello or R900 being made of "inferior" materials, they're much happier when things get aggressive. Riders on the group ride who aren't in the know about geometry are left scratching their heads when high end vintage bikes are in the mix with brand new hyper bikes.
I say you should pick your geometry based on what kind of cyclist you are and what your skill level is. Pick your frame material based on what kind of ride your going on. If pushing the limits of my fitness or chasing PR's is on the schedule, I want my Tarmac. Longer distance, flatter, but still spicy? Give me my Montello. Shorter distance, smoother pavement, maybe some climbs? I'll take my R900.
Hi Christopher! Thank you for sharing your experience and insights. The Montello sounds like a nice piece. Ride in good health 👍🏾
Exactly and yes I think Lemond and Hinault rode the first Look Carbon Frames and I know Alan Carbonio was out maybe before them in 1985!!
Thanks for the info Ron👍🏾
I have two carbon bikes a Daccordi & an Italian made frame from Eddy merckx.I also have a rebuilt Cliff shrubb 531 frame from 1992 fitted with 10 speed Dura ace its smooth & a modern Steel Gravel bike made from 725 Reynolds from Temple cycles which in winter runs 38mm Gravelkings & in summer runs 28mm Smooth Gravelkings by the way there great tyres.Good work on the videos thanks.
Very nice stable Mark!
Just been talking about steel frames, think I’d like to get a steel set up again. Back to the future 💪💪, great memories of my teen years on a steel road bike 😀👌nostalgia is king…great insight my man 👍
Love it - another GREAT video! Fantastic job of explaining & teaching as you build up to various discussion points. Couple thoughts (not critiques, just more food for thought):
1) Had to LOL at the video's preview still shot.... throwing up "the dukes" getting ready for battle 😆😂 good stuff, that's funny! 😁
2) In the geometry comparison, I agree w/everything you said, with one thought for discussion. & that's the diff between the Colnago & Bianchi's headtube angles will still make a slight difference on "feel". Because, using those two bikes as the example, isn't the fork rake what makes the wheelbase similar. The headtube angle is still going to affect the turnability of the front wheel. As is the angle from the headset's bottom cup (centered), to the center of the front axle. The Colnago still puts the apex of steering more "over the top" of the axle itself than the Bianchi does; so even tho wheelbase measures out the same (which in a straight line will give you the same general "road feel") it will give you a different vibe in any degree of turn. (an overblown example of this would be how a raked fork chopper would turn compared to a crotch-rocket) ...maybe I'm off on this thought? But I think it's just another point of leverage difference. In this case angle vs offset; how much difference does that really make in the feel?
3) I've got a set of those exact Mavic anniversary wheels w/the red anodized hubs & one red spoke... LOVE those wheels! I have two carbon wheelsets that weigh the same as the Ksyriums, and I like the ride & climbing characteristics of the Mavics better (I run either Conti GP4ks or Michelin Power tires). But one set of the carbons are "deep dish" so they are a little faster on flat courses; otherwise I like my Mavics. But as much as wheels & tires can make a "feel" difference, I think your comments are spot-on regarding frame material.
4) fantastic explanation of steel construction & what butting is. I own both lugged & "triple butted, heat treated" steel & they're both awesome. The lugged more visually artistic & beauty, the lugged/heat treated performance beauty. One thing to add to your already excellent explanation is that some builders also vary the tube shapes/sizes at key points on the build. My '95 Serotta as example, has a double-ovalized downtube: it is oblong at the connection to the headtube in an up & down configuration for greater strength & then it gets round (& smaller diameter) in the middle, only to expand to another larger oval near the bottom bracket, however it's ovalized side-to-side for greater bb/pedaling stiffness. It is much harder (full on craft/artisan-ship difficulty) to build frames like that, but it makes it lighter/stronger/better-ride/etc. That '95 steel frame fully built up w/dura-ace & ksyrium aluminum rims, weighs a pound less than a 3 yr old "name brand" carbon bike I own w/ultegra & w/(same weight as the ksyriums) carbon wheelset. And the Serotta is a noticably better ride; just as responsive with it's ovalized tubes (there are more custom tubes than just the downtube) compared to the carbon's oversized molded bottom-bracket (which is also optimized for stiffness or compliance where each is needed). You did refer to this a bit when you were comparing your two celeste green beauties, but I wanted to mention that the "shaped" tubes that you referred to, & the diameter of the tubes can make a really big difference on the bikes' feel & performance. I also have a '91 Serotta Davis Phinney steel frame that is lugged & regular round tubes. It's a race bike & very fast, but is still a significant "feel" difference to the '95 I mentioned. Key difference is the ovalizing of the tubes at key points.
5) 12:05 ... could not agree w/you more, Brother. You are dead on correct here & it's too bad that the general cycling mindset (manufacturers, cycling media, & the elitists in the cycling community) doesn't understand this better.
Luis, yet another fantastic video; again, zero critiques here, just trying to add a little something to the conversation. Keep up the good work, dude!
Hi jseski! Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Initially, I was going to speak a lot about stem length because of how big a difference it can make beyond the fit aspects. I've decided it needs an entire video because of it's implications. Coming in the New Year👍🏾
@@thegoodwheel good thinking & great idea. I agree, each stem length and angle can dramatically affect not only the fit, but also the steering-feel of the bike! I look forward to that video! Hope you have a Merry Christmas, Brother; Blessings to you & yours
Really enjoying your videos Luis- I'm currently looking at buying my next bike- but not sure if I should go carbon or steel!
Good luck Gavin! It's good that you have a choice👍🏾
You make terrific videos…Period. I love, Love, LOVE those 2 Bianchi’s! I have found 2-3 bikes similar to these before watching your videos, but I didn’t think of how they could turn out. Which do you like best?!?!
Thank you! I really appreciate that. Today I took the Pinella after mostly riding the MegaSet and I noticed how refined the Pinella felt all around. So I say the Pinella... for now
Great video !
How about a suggestion on how to obtain some of the best steel frames ?
Most are used, or hard to find new .
Especially the rim brake models I prefer.
Also, how about your experience with titanium frames vs steel frames ?
Keep them coming, the videos are really good .
Thank you David! I am working on a "how to find and buy" series to cover some of those topics. Thanks for watching 👍🏾
The difference I feel in a steel bike compared to a carbon one is that it feels more grounded. I have a modern steel Speedvagen and a vintage steel Olmo and they both feel like they're part of the road. They're smooth in that sense as it feels like you're in the road. Where a carbon bike feels more like you're skimming over the top and the material just absorbs the vibration.
Thanks for that analysis 👍🏾
My dear friend Luis, from my point of view, you completely right. Kindly let me know when you intend to come to Milano Italy again. I would like that you visit our friends from Gios Torino in Torino!
Hi Leopoldo. I would love that. I plan to be in Tuscany in June.
@@thegoodwheel let see each other in June at Milano in order to invite you a saturday morning to join Torino and visit Gios Torino museum and shop. Aldo and Marco are my friends and I have one Gios Torino Super Record (cyclocross version), a great bike!
@@leopoldoparada76 wow, this is amazing. Please send me your contact info. You can get in touch with me through the links in the video description. Thanks again🙏🏾
Loving these videos brother!. Im in a hunt for a pinella! Im in love with this Bianchi. Quick question, why dont you ride carbon wheels often? Thanks for the video!.
Hi Danny! Thank you, hope You find one. I prefer the semi box section aluminum wheels because I find them more responsive and I don't really need the aero benefits for most of my rides. Also the bearing system in the Mavic Kxyrium are amazing👍🏾
That was a great video Luis ,we support young riders getting started on steel so to show them this video was great thank you in my time it was all 531 tubing and 72* angles haha a question for you please for starting hard training to racing a Caad 10 or a Pinella both with Campag 10 or 11 ,Thank you once again Sir.
Hi David! Oooo, that's a tough question. I would say the CAAD10 because it is more prevalent and I think a bit more responsive. But, everytime I have gone deep on the Pinella, I never felt disappointed. The CAAD10👍🏾
@@thegoodwheel Thank you very much for your reply ,may i wish you and your team a very happy Christmas and a successful 2023.👍
Nice video!🤜🏿🤛🏿 I own 7 race bikes, started racing in the 1960s...I still ride my Swedish 531/Campy/sewups bike in L'Eroica events, I agree on what you discovered, a frame builder once told me carbon frames are too stiff compared to other materials, but we all want to ride what the pros ride, so that's that!
Before C-19 there was a British woman who won a championship riding a steel bike, I rode a Ti bike in1973, flexi as heck I gave it back but another racer did very well on it(some french guy won the TDF)
I don't race now but if I'm to ride the pave following the spring classics as a tourist I'm on steel, but I can't lie, acceleration, climbing, aerodynamics(!!!) Carbon is king!
Bottom line it's a toolkit, but I was dropped at an L'Eroica event by a 20yr old girl in period dress on a Pee Wee Herman bike running late to the vineyard! So go figure!🤣🥂🖖🏿
Great story Paul! Thanks for sharing the pee wee herman story👍🏾
Love to hear some commentary on titanium.
Thank you for the suggestion David!
There are some modern lugged steel frames with large diameter tubes. See for example, a Battaglin Portofino frame. These are custom race geometry bikes designed by former Grand tour champion Giovanni Battaglin. I think carbon is probably more efficient going up a seated climb, but steel is more fun to ride on all day rides. I ride a custom Columbus Spirit and it feels the same going downhill at 40 or 80 km/hr. No shimmy, great vibration damping. A perfectly fitted bike is more fun to ride than a lightweight stiff racing frame that doesn't fit you.
Thanks for sharing Dev! Yes, the Battaglin is exquisite 👍🏾
Great instructive video. In the used bike and collector market it appears that high end steel/titanium/aluminum bikes/frames maintain their resale value much better that carbon bikes/frames. Screw-in bottom bracket bikes do much better in the used market than press fit bottom brackets regardless of frame material. I wonder why this is happening? A good steel bike appears to be a better long term investment than a carbon framed bike that rides the same.
Great observation Mitchell👍🏾
Wow Luis your knowledge is amazing the way the way you communicate is excellent to ❤👍🤩🏅🚴sending you and your family all the best for Christmas and New Year 🎉👍🎅🏅🚴
Thanks again as always Pete! Merry Christmas 👍🏾
Everything you can think of and many things you can't think of affect how a bike rides. Even two supposedly identical bikes can feel different. I rode two of the same exact model Allez M4 back in 1999-2000, right down to tire pressures, and I found one to work better for me than the other. Go figure. One of the majors factor is the rider: his or her experience, fitness, physiology, even mental predispositions.
Just remember this: The more you ride on a bike you like, the more shift happens!
Thanks for sharing Ranger👍🏾
One great thing about steel frames is that they are easily to custom build.
Great video mate 👍 I'd love to hear your feedback if you've ever ridden titanium frames ? I hear both positive and negative about them so I haven't made up my mind about em . Cheers.
My experience with Ti is limited. I think it is closer in performance to Carbon when pushed hard but at that point is relaxed like steel would be. Hope that helps.
That BIANCHI E' BELLISSIMA man!!!!!!
Thank you Richard!
Interesting video. Yet there are road bikes who have a classic geometry and other ones who have a sloping one which more agressive that also determines handling. Also the position with ahead set if cut too short is not a good thing, the positive thing with a quill stem is that you can adjust to your riding height. Another method of assembly which wasn't cited here is called fillet brazing which is "glues" metals together using a lower alloyed metal alloy. This method does not melt the metals to be joined, and as such, does not alter the balance of the tubes. However, it can be a slower and more expensive process. Fillet brazed frames can be divided into two types: those with conjunctions and those without. Frames with conjunctions have a retro charm and are characterized by machined and chrome-plated joints, while frames without conjunctions are stiffer and can be designed with more freedom in terms of geometry. Fillet Brazed Frame without Conjunctions has pros : Stiffer than tig, it does not alter the balance of the tubes, pleasant to look at (looks like a monocoque), freedom of geometries like the tig but also cons : Slow processing, more expensive, a few dozen grams heavier. so does a fillet Brazed Frame, with Conjunctions
Pros : Undisputed retro charm with machined.Tig Welded frame has pros : Ease of processing, cleanliness, lightness, freedom of geometry and cons : possible breaks with very thin tubes.Also stem lenght is important, I don't run large tires but
700*23 because I know that with my frames, I don't think that I would have enough clearance for 700*25.I have also installed slime antipuncture tubes in my wheels and with tires I make sure to inflate them at the maximum pressure. Also the angle of the seat tube,angle of the headset tube and chain stays play a lot in the bike behavior. All of my road bike have short stay and classic geometry. I have once tried a slopping geometry race but this wasn't for me.
Thanks for sharing👍🏾
@@thegoodwheel you are welcome
I like lots of extra steel where it's not needed, never know when you might need it! Can't get more day to day utilitarian for cost than pre suspension MTBs and town hybrids from the late 80s early 90s sort of period, little to no cost to the mid range stuff if your lucky enough to have decent salvage points in your area. I just know I can proceed with confidence on any steel frame if it looks ok, can't be sure enough of history and how far through it's life a aluminium frame is really.
Got a lovely lugged steel Peugeot race bike going for scrap recently, nothing wrong structurally just needs cranks, seat and work to re condition and dial in components.
Thanks for watching Eric👍🏾
I do love my aluminum Cannondale CAAD 12. Very fast!
Thanks for sharing Mark👍🏾
One of my best users was a custom built STEEL Track bike that we converted to a road bike, after a good crash when doing some road work, I decided it was time to do the conversion. The frameset was still true with no dings or dents so off to the frame builder it went, just 5 short blocks away from the scene of the Accident. The biggest problem was tire clearance of the fork crown which was filed down and the rear brake bridge was raised, added the needed bits and pieces and had a CAMPAGNOLO derailleur hanger installed, this hanger was produced BY CAMPAGNOLO just for this type of conversion. End game a bike that rode like a bat out of hell. It was a good hill climber, descending was totally crazy, it was quick and fast, it just totally carved up the road way, and with a higher bb shell height you could really lean on this puppy. Doing a hundred mile ride was not a problem. BTW: Great video.
On another note: Concerning construction, there is also fillet brazing a custom built Jeff Lyon frameset can still be had for roughly $ 1,400.00 you can see his frames @ www.lyonsport.com. I think he's still building?
Thank you for sharing that Cecile! Really sounds like a hoot to ride 👍🏾
You may have addressed it, but what about aluminum? Specifically looking at the Emonda AL 5 vs the Carbon SL5. Is it worth the $1200 extra?
Lugged frames are far superior strength joints allowing thiner wall thickness. Aluminium and carbon fibre or the matrix of carbon fibre are not fatigue resistant so large diameter tubes are needed to stop flex. Steel is fatigue resistant so much smaller diameter flexible tubes to build the frame. The burred thin wall tubes also stop the transmission of vibrations. Power flex of steel frames can be reduced with bracing. My steel frame has an 85 mm CB drop long wheel base full toe clearance on the front wheel, corners like it is on rails and has little flex out of the saddle with 110 kg rider.
Hi, any chance you tried before a steel cinelli vigorelli? It is supposed to be a CRIT bike with higher bb drop.
Hi, thanks for watching. I am famwith them but haven't ridden one.
Have had a hernia injury recently. Riding carbon now. Helps with power transfer I think. More comfortable with my injury. Still have my steel frame. Just like my carbon bike I guess. Keep reaching for it
Thanks for sharing Jason👍🏾
Sorry to hear about your injury but glad that you can keepnriding and the carbon helps
@@thegoodwheel thanks buddy. When I can't do it any more I'll get a recumbent, and when I can't do that any more I will put Cranks on my wheel chair. I will never stop!
@@universe-juice I know you will👍🏾
Can you recommend any new steel bikes? I really want a rim brake one for my N+1...
Hi Silidons. So many out there now. Steilbel, Speedvagen, Kona, Fairlight, Ritte, Merckx Liege, Officina Battlaglin, Ritchey... just to name a few. They are out there
General I feel like steel is more comfortable on long weekend rides. I’ll also opt for titanium. My steel bikes are also just better looking bikes with the chrome lugs and fun paint jobs. Given the price point for steel, it’s also possible to own two or more for the price of one high end carbon bike. I do however race on a carbon frame with carbon wheels. The aerodynamic shapes possible with carbon provide advantages not possible with steel.
Hi Peter! Thank you for sharing... they are certainly good to look at👍🏾
Frame material is market driven.
I believe it’s cheaper to make a carbon frame than to make a decent steel road frame.
Hi Dino! Thank you for sharing you thoughts 👍🏾
Hay do a video on top bikes/ frames made from 2000s to 2023 🙏 money no expense and best bikes for a money at a time and steal frame vs aluminum
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Did you see that GCN recently featured what looks to be your bianchi and compared it to a new pennarello?
I did see it! That is the aluminum version... very racy.
First carbon in TDF - Lemond Team Z, built by Craig Calfee
Thank you David👍🏾
80psi is too high for your weight. From what I'm aware of, the Corsa is a thin not too durable tire, but with 30c tires your pressure should probably be closer to 70-60 depending on system weight and rim width.
Hello Luis!! I am the owner of two bikes, one is a Carbon 2021 LOOK 765 Optimum+ (Ultegra Mech groupset w/Zipp 404's and my second bike is a Titanium 2002 Litespeed Sabre (Frankenstein mix of Shimano/SRAM 105 + force parts riding on Scribe carbon wheels)
I know you are a steel man, but I seem to struggle to find content from experienced riders that can explain to me more in detail the differences between TI and Carbon. So far..... I feel like my old titanium frame is faster with better road feel where my carbon feels "spongy". I am a heavier rider (290lbs) so im not sure if my experience is because of being a big guy or if that experience will continue to be the same as I drop in weight. Perhaps you could invite one of your TI buddies and interview them to explain their experiences? Id love to find more TI content on the VeloTube. Thanks again for your content!!
Hi there! I will certainly consider that as content in the near future. There could be a trade off to feel as the weight of a rider changes... but that may be tough to describe. Thanks for the great post👍🏾
Certainly. Im excited to see how the ride feel begins to evolve as my weight goes down. Never thought I would be putting TI ahead of carbon at this point, but as we know the cream rises to the top lol. Thanks again and be safe!!
Merci !
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What are the wall mounts called
Did you have chance to ride F.Moser Leader AX with Dedacciai Zero tubing? If yes, how does it feel compared to Bianchi Pinella?
Hi stibre101! Thanks for watching 👍🏾 I have not
I’m very curious to see if you have tried a bamboo frame?
No I have not. Haven't even seen one live
I've gone from a Colnago Master PIU, Colnago Titanio and now a Kestrel Legend SL carbon. The Kestrel is a phenomenal riding bike, but I still hop on the Colnagos for nostalgic fun. IMO, the Kestrel was drastically overlooked when it came out.
I've heard good things and people who own them, don't give them up👍🏾
Hi
Have you got any experience with Cervelo Super prodigy?
Is that their steel frame. Never ridden it and I believe I've only seen one in real life
I wish you had mentioned the weight of both the bikes and does the heavier steel bike lead to lower vibrations and therefore a more plush ride? I wonder…
Oh sheeit 🥊!
👍🏾
You really can't beat a bicycle as a vehicle to experience differences in design. People spend tens of thousands to feel a stiffer chassis in a car, but two bikes priced at $1500 can feel dramatically different.
Thanks for sharing Aaron👍🏾
Can you make a case for an steel frame with a carbon fork and how it compares to an all steel and an all carbon bike? What's your experience with that case.
I'm thinking about installing a carbon fork on my steel bike and i would like to know more about how it affects riding in general.
Thanks a lot
Hi Nahuel!
czcams.com/video/4owCYyjjFtc/video.html
I did that on this video briefly. Thanks for watching👍🏾
@@thegoodwheel thanks a lot, i'll check it out at my lunch break.
I bought an old steel pinarello and i'm working on rebuilding it,the idea is to build a modernized classic,mixing steel with carbon.
I really like your content,keep working hard!
I saw a report saying the carbon fiber industry is not going to last because is getting replaced by Magnesium frames.
Haven't seen that but will keep an eye on it
@@thegoodwheel
Magnesium and right now they are experimenting using Grapheme to make them everlasting and get rid of carbon completely, the reason carbon fiber got so expensive is not the material, is the guarantee coverage over carbon breaking.
In general steel, besides corrosion is "carefree" material, durable, lasting and practical, while carbon frames are like eggshell, you have to be very careful how you handle the bike, transport, or in the case of collision or drop easily damage, even internal cracks and delamination, of using excessive force to screw on your component to the carbon frame element etc.
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Odd you say that about lapierre I have the aircode with 55mm deep wheels and I ride on the frankly awful uk roads and wind I never find it skittish at all feels planted. Even better than my caad 8 on shallow rims? Maybe it's because it's the aero bike but I thought the aero bikes are meant to be more skittish than the lighter bikes?
Hi there, thank you for watching! I wasn't expecting that sensation from and I even kept adjusting tire pressure to change this sensation to no avail 👍🏾
Great info man.......... did see bike called punchuer lol 🧐🙁
I know😂😂😂... hopefully the rider is. Thanks for watching Cornell👍🏾
Kestrel CSX MTB!! USA made, all- carbon.
👍🏾
What is your opinion of aluminum frame road bikes? In particular, 5 or 10 yrs old.
Hi David. I think regardless of material... first, it must fit. Then, it must be structurally sound. There are some great alu frames made in the past 10 years.
@@thegoodwheel Thanks,will keep this in mind.
Hi Luis.First of all thank you for this very interesting video,for a standard geometry I like Italian bikes, apparently like you.For the first carbon bike on the Tour de France you are right,the first one arrived in 1986.The Look KG86 equipped Bernard Hinault and Greg Lemond in the "La Vie Claire" team,the frame and fork are Carbon/Kevlar and the manufacturing technique is TVT(Technique du Verre Tissé/Woven Glass Technique)was it already a bike brand ? You should know that in 1986 the boss of the company Look and the boss of "La Vie Claire"it's the same person Sr Bernard Tapie.As I'm French, I'll give you a little history of the Look company,before making bicycles they mainly made ski equipment,of course the boards but more interesting for us cyclists the bindings.It was on the same principle as Look ski bindings that the first automatic pedals were invented,Sr Tapie with Bernard Hinault and others certainly from the team"La Vie Claire"invented the first automatic Look pedals.Have a nice day and have a good trip !!
First carbon frames were used in 83 by Peugeot. Robert Millar won stage 10 into Luchon on one. TVT supplied the tubes to Look but only for the first year or two. The Looks had Vitus forks to begin with although Lemond used steel. TVT introduced Kevlar into the fork column a couple of years later when they released frames under their own brand. For several years it was the go to frame for mountain stages. Delgado, Lemond & Indurain all used TVT to win, giving them 4 wins on the trot.
@@ultimobici. Thank you Sr. I found the Peugeot PY10FC 1983, it only had the three main carbon tubes. After those of Delgado and Indurain I know it is the TVT92,so the KG86 is a TVT. Thanks for the info !!
Thank you for sharing that history Jean Paul ski. It is well appreciated👍🏾
Thank you so much for your information.👍👍👍👍👍I feel so happy because I can't afford to buy a cabon bike.😂😂😂😂
Thanks for watching Ruwan👍🏾
I understand manufacturers are making room for larger tyres but I seem to have issues with how modern bikes handle due to long chain stays and wheelbase...
Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts 👍🏾
With regards to the weight of a steel frame bike. If we are to only have it uci legal, isn’t it possible to have it weighing about 6.8kg just by choosing the right components? Correct me if im wrong. I just think it’s the most important consideration (6.8kg) because for me i think having a bike that is uci legal at least tells us that a steel bike is not heavy at all, and that steel bike riders have no excuse for that
Hi evall. Yes, it is absolutely possible to meet the UCI weight limit with steel and a carbon fork.
Longevity wise steel will retain good ride feel than carbon. I had two mountain bikes one carbon and the other steel. Both had the same geometry same components and over time the carbon frame bike felt dead. The triple butted steel frame I kept because the ride quality stayed the same. Carbon has it's place and can be great but over time the feel will change
Thanks for sharing your experience with your bikes Anthony 👍🏾
Does steel corner/handle better on fast descents?
I don't believe there is a way to generalize that answer, as build and geometries are huge factors.
@@thegoodwheel same geometry and weight as let's say your colnago
@@MarcraM82 my Pinella feels more stable than the Colnago and they are similar in geometry... but I don't believe one would be significantly better than the other.