LGBTQ Relationships and the Bible: A Progressive and Evangelical Dialogue
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 12. 2021
- What does the Bible really say about same-sex unions? Where has the church gone wrong in its response to this pressing conversation? This video is a discussion between me and progressive Christian pastor Colby Martin, author of Unclobber. We discuss the topic together and then take live questions.
READ: Same-Sex Marriage, by Sean McDowell and John Stonestreet (amzn.to/3ugLYh4)
READ: Unclobber by Colby Martin (amzn.to/3ughCLO)
*Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (bit.ly/3LdNqKf)
*USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for $100 off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (bit.ly/3AzfPFM)
*See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (bit.ly/448STKK)
FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA:
Twitter: / sean_mcdowell
TikTok: @sean_mcdowell
Instagram: / seanmcdowell
Website: seanmcdowell.org
Sean presents a scriptural consideration and Colby responds: “That’s a god I want nothing to do with.” Progressive Christianity is not submitted to the Lord - it submits to the culture.
That is very true. We need to submit to God and everything His word says
Colby wants nothing to do with the God of Scripture which disqualifies him as a "pastor."
In the end it will either be "Lord, thy will be done," or He will say to us "thy will be done."
@@mauigh89 Lord, let thy will be done. I dont mean to instigate😅
These are really hard issues. We want to love everyone. But the most loving thing to do is not to leave them in sin.
@@run4cmt your not wrong
Sean...I love how whenever you have conversations around differing opinions, you always start with what you agree with, rather than what you disagree on. Such a great and God honoring approach.
There are so many issues here with Colby’s belief system. I appreciate he was willing to discuss this issue. I will pray for Colby. He’s in need of God’s Holy Spirit. Much love to all.
I also hold a traditional Christian view, but I really appreciate Colby engaging in this thoughtful, respectful conversation. I think I need to practice listening to people who hold different views. You guys did such a great job of that! Thank you!
Sean has had my attention for a couple months now, with him trying to understand and explain peoples views, however it doesn't change my views whatsoever!!!! Go Sean
Yes of course if they will listen to. Colby is willing to listen to Sean
At least he tried. He still sticks to his far left delusions, but he tried.
Why are we calling it a traditional christian view? The ONLY view a Christian holds is that homosexuality is a sin. If you hold any other position you are living in sin and in rebellion of God and we need to call that out.
@@hoxiefam6731agree - we need to be careful with how we use language. Words matter. They shape our understanding in ways we don’t even realize. The far left knows this - that’s why they cover their ideas in euphemisms.
Sadly, those like Colby who say they don't want to serve a god who has such standards really has made an idol, and therefore, we are not even discussing the same God at that point.
how is this guy even a pastor teaching the bible
Everything he says is emasculated. He is being led by his and other people's feelings.
@@inchristalone25 yeah we can't be led by our feelings our hearts are wicked.
Colby doesn’t seem to try to sympathize with God’s feeling on the matter. That’s a problem. It doesn’t matter what Sean or Colby “feels”. What matters is what God commands.
I agree. 1:23:12 "Thats a God I really want nothing to do with". That made my jaw drop and it is really sad.
"Freedom cannot be separated from truth." Well stated, Sean!!
Thanks. Got that one from Os Guinness.
@@SeanMcDowell There's a death toll associated with your rhetoric. I told you that like 5 years ago. And you still haven't cleaned up your activity. You're a piece of work.
You mean to say, the wages of sin is DEATH! Align your words with the word of God and you can never stray from righteousness 🙌
@@emartin9404 That's why I trust God and not the knowledge of good and evil. You can be born again.
@dansaber if that were true you would never attempt to draw an association of death tolls to a man reverberating the word of God Plainly described in the text of the Bible within the Scriptures
You can tell how hard it is for Colby to explain his position.. and how easily the flow of Sean's explanation is. There is no battle in the mind for Sean, and there is a battle in Colbys mind about him comprimising the truth for the world's benefit. Praying for Colby to think about him and and his families salvation because he is going to make it so hard for his children.
Well put!
Very true. It seems clear that Colby is a very thoughtful and deep man, and if he keeps honestly and earnestly searching, then he will find the truth.
Astute observation!
Perfectly said
Just because someone is more comfortable in public speaking and can articulate better, doesn't necessarily make him right. Take Jordan Peterson for example.
My heart breaks for Colby. Sean did a great job in displaying a loving attitude in a biblical spirit.
I want to start this off with Love. As someone who dealt so strenuously with the desires, lusts, and haughtiness of Same Sex Attraction as well as Opposite Sex Attraction. I understand how hard it is to hear that we are wrong in wanting to pursue the desires of our flesh and we believe it’s our life to live but I ask you what happens when look at our life as not our own but as a service unto the Lord. When you think about the sacrificing of the Lamb we must think about the gift we received and the sacrifice we were given. I will happily give the Lord whatever he needs from me to be in accordance with his word. There is freedom in the Gospel. There is freedom in the flee from sin. There is freedom in resistance of temptation and the wiles of the devil. There is freedom in love and truth. There is freedom but it can only be obtained through obedience to the word of God.
Hey Jay Jay, Keep fighting the good fight. God is very happy with our pursuit of holiness and righteousness. One day we will all be walking in complete righteousness, when Jesus comes. I struggled for forty years, continuing to trust in God's forgiveness, continuing to trust the relationship we have with God, through Jesus, continuing to trust that I have a new identity in Jesus, believing God instead of my feelings. A month ago, God completely removed all same sex attraction and all of the bad habits that go with it, completely gone and vanished as if it had never been there. Strangely enough, it was forty years after I became a Christian, to the day. I didn't expect that. One thing I know. God is happy with us continuing to stand up, when we fall over, and for us to continue trusting. That is the race that is to be run. Our situation will not compare to the wonders we will realise when we are with Him. Bless you.
@@gregorrobertson2124 Praise God!!
❤PRAISE GOS'S LOVE 😢❤😢. HIS LOVE IS LIKE NO OTHER. HIS WILL IS TO BRING US BACK TO HIM; WITH KNOWLEDGE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH. WE ARE MADE IN HIS IMAGE❤; ACT WITH JESUS CHRIST IN MIND,AND HEART SOO WE ARE PERFECTED + 💖 😍💖+ LIVING, BELIEVING, FEELING, BEING USED FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD 💓🕊️💓 ; IF WITHOUT HIM 🙌🙏🏽🙌* WHAT IS RIGHT* ? NOTHING?
@@gregorrobertson2124 thank you for this testimony
@@gregorrobertson2124 amen, lifelong struggle…. and special honours and blessings await those of us who are overcomers. Living a life that resists temptations of our flesh in seeking to live in accordance of God’s will is not easy, nor is anything else in life that is worth striving for. We are in a battle against the powers of darkness. If we give up and give in and base our “love” or what we think is love only on our feelings we base that love on shifting sand because feelings come and go. We need a more solid foundation than feelings and that foundation is found in Jesus, in sacrifice, in faithful obedience to what is truly holy and true.
Dr Sean McDowell, has the patience of gold.
First of all my appreciation for Sean and the way he shares the true with respect, PATIENCE, and love. I have to learn a lot about the patience part : ) Second, my heart goes to Colby because as He said : he's loosing the forest for the tree. There's a battle inside you brother. You want to serve two masters, following the culture and justifying their beliefs on feelings. You said that you don't think you're in the wrong because you're doing what Jesus said about His easy yoke but forgot to mencion the part where Jesus also said; pick up your cross and follow me. If you are humble enough to re-watch this dialog, you will find out that the truth is exposed in such a graciously way that is very difficult to be lost. May God guide you and give you understanding and discernment. If you decided to be a pastor or a preacher you are responsable for the wellbeing of the sheep. We're not alone in the battle but we need to surrender all our wants to the Lord. Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away but my Words will never pass away.⁷
Great video, I was in a beautiful marriage before my now ex wife left me,i still love her and most times i cant stop thinking about her, i am doing my very best to get rid of the thought of her, but i just cant, i love her so much, i dont know why i am bring this here for, i cant stop thinking about her
@jay pritchett wow, how did you get a spiritual adviser, and how do i reach her?
@jay pritchett Thank you for this valuable information, i just looked her up now on the net
It sounds like you guys are discussing witch ( spiritual adviser healer caster) and witchcraft… be careful with that
When you think of her, pray for her. Pray for help in this situation. Pray for His will be done.
I know man... Was married 23+ years. And I've been single since the divorce she wanted and got. She wasnt in love with me anymore? Ahes been married and divorced two more times so I guess she is searching for happiness? Or possibly a better version of me? Idk... Divorce sucks for all parties involved. The kids, the couple, the families, the friends ... But I am okay but still broken about the whole ordeal. Good luck to you man.
What I would like to hear is a discussion on the trendiness of not being heterosexual in the teens of today, how social media fuels it, and how that is effecting the church.
That’s a great suggestion, thanks…
Let's be clear, it's just being spoken about more - the questioning of one's sexuality has never changed throughout history, people are just engaging and feeling more free to express their journey with others. Better this than what the Church did a bad job of in the past which was mired in hate and really caused a lot of harm.
We can debate the puritanical (not historically consistent as Sean may be somewhat mistaken about) perspectives of marriage within the West, but we'd have to really expand out some concepts if we are to be truly honest about what marriage is and should be in and out of a "Christian" (which is itself broadly different) context.
Ephesians 6:12 “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
God love ALL humans, he loathes anti-humanity organizations (Romans 1:26-32) These organizations, such as Sodom, Nazi, CCP, drug cartels, human traffickers, organ harvesters, genocide performers, are the true meanings of “men committed shameful acts with other men.”
Don’t take Romans 1:26-27 out of context and use it to attack gay people. It has nothing to do with gays.
LGBTQ+ are humans. Churches attack them are anti-humanity organizations too. Don’t be fooled by Satan’s teachings and explanations. He wants to turn churches into anti-humanity organizations for sure.
@@desnock can you honestly say with a straight face that societal pressures do not influence someone's sexuality? That this absolutely rudderless, identity crisis we've been thrown into where biology itself is controversial, has no bearing on the 40% of Gen-z-ers who identify as LGBTQ?
@@Luke_Radiosmash I don't think I made that claim, Luke. Can you say with a straight face that the Bible is recounting historically cultural realities that have been used to confirm biases?
The story of the OT is that humanity has always been rudderless, and the NT the rudderless were the Pharisees, to which the current Church is most aligned with theologically and illogically.
The idea that gay people or trans people didn't exist in prior ages is a lack of historical research on your part and again a sense of confirmation bias that revels in not being quite up on what you are talking about. Again, those people existed from time immemorial. The only difference today is we are aware of it as the voices are more able to communicate in the public square. The identity crisis resorting to bigoted perspectives has been helped by a more honest conversation by those 40%ers who God loves as much as the bigots who hate them.
While I do hold Sean’s view, I can’t stress enough how much I appreciate these discussions. Thank you so much Colby and Sean!
What part did Sean got wrong? ( explain Biblically please)
@@ladillalegos 🤔I hold Sean’s view. I don’t think Sean got anything wrong. He did a great job!
@@ladillalegos even Sean struggles with and respects he could be wrong. There is a reason beyond any legalism/literalism that underlies your perspective that this happens. The Holy Spirit is alive and well in Colby as he practices what Christ preached and doesn't rely on bad dogma.
The bible as misapplied cannot be used as a standard for a number of reasons: most of you don't really understand the historicity and culture that created it. Second, you don't apply consistency to it as you make and infuse it with authority it doesn't possess (and doesn't pretend). And then there are the troubling scriptures that suggest a daughter to be sold to her rapist, the rules and regulations around slavery which IS all part of the Jewish Law. AND the fact that Jesus simply didn't state that homosexuality or even polygamy were sins as a matter of FACT, regardless of how folks want to imbue Paul with the authority of Christ (which would be idol worship, specifically pointed out by Christ as a sin against 1 of His 2 Commandments).
So bearing false witness IS a sin, and making idols out of your own particular dogma/bias is another example of a lack of humility and ability to submit yourself to God's instruction IF you believe Christ was God.
There is a reason HE said to deal with the log in your own eye (a large item) against a speck in another's (a small item). There is a reason He said that some would come in His name that HE would call evildoer. It's probably a good idea to meditate on those items than propagate a false dogma, which I see Sean is struggling with. He would admit he preached incorrectly when he was younger and you could see the struggle IN love that he had when confronted by a gay parishoner's struggle. If Sean, or you, continue to be honest and let the Holy Spirit work in you, it'll lift the veil from your eyes. I have faith that if YOU are ready to hear God's wisdom, someday you'll get there. Just have to get beyond the religion and dogma and childish/magical thinking, which even Sean struggles with.
God Bless.
@@desnock with all due respect, and in kindness. I believe that Jesus talks about adultery very clearly, and defines it to greater extent even stating that those who divorce in order to be with others are adulterous. Matthew 5:27-32 But I think that just by reading Matthew chapter 5 in general gives sufficient basis on His moral compas regarding to Jewish law.
God bless
@@adrianruiz6091 He does talk about adultery, that's my point Adrian. He doesn't talk about homosexuality or polygamy, so if He wanted to point out sins of marriage, wouldn't He have pointed them out? Both existed as relationships in His time.
So even here Christ gives permission for divorce. And says one must give her a certificate for divorce.
So where did I suggest His position on adultery? And in what way does this apply to His non-position on homosexuality or polygamy? The discussion revolves around people making up a sin Christ never spoke about, but He did talk about sexual sin.
Thanks for the respect, we'll show each other the courtesy as we try to help each other see what Christ said and meant. Can you correlate that with Matt 22: 34-40? As the guiding principles of how we are to see anything HE says or how we'd interpret any Scripture based on HIS instruction?
Before I get to actually listen to the conversation, I just want to say thank you for the willingness on both sides to have an open, respectful discussion. You’re teaching us believers how to engage in these important conversations lovingly; that’s exactly the type of leading we all need. God bless you both. 🙏🏼❤️😊
What surprises me the most is Sean's self control, prudence and patience throughout the hole conversation, especially when he cannot get clear and direct answers to very simple questions. A clear example of how to respond with meekness and reverence, with honoring respect to any other human being who is a God's image bearer and worthy to be treated with God's given dignity. Thank you Sean for that testimony and example.
The power of the Holy Spirt!
Yes! He is completely in tune with the Holy Spirit. 🙏🏽😊🌿🙆🏻♀️♥️
sounds like you're glorifying your own confirmation bias . gives me the warm and fuzzies ...
@@GypsyGirl317 sure, Gypsy. Cringe
Colby's penchant to not answer questions directly and avoid dealing with the questions reveals far more than his words.
Sure does.
Hes slippery like a snake.
Amen❤
I can only pray that I will someday have half the grace and patience that you do, Sean. This was tough to watch for so many reasons.
So true 💯
I agree...I could not have done this.... honestly, it made my blood boil...so many people are pointing out that Colby wants God to bend to him and if He doesn't, Colby wants nothing to do with Him.. and yet he's a preacher, a preacher of what...yep, no way I could have done this conversation with him...but this only tells me that I have to work harder in the Lord to have patience with others...
@@donnar9864 Absolutely. I find myself yelling at my phone when listening to conversations like this - particularly when Progressive "Christians" are involved- I dont know that it can even be called Christianity, it's totally unorthodox and they've made God into their own image in order to support their lifestyle. I have never had a problem loving people, but I have a real problem when they're being led astray by someone who knows better. Colby even said at one point that he didnt want to be involved with the God Sean was describing. These Progressive Churches will someday answer for lying to their flocks- Pastors and teachers are held to a higher standard. I feel sorry for the people he is misleading. Truth is Objective. There is no relative Truth, only THE Truth, Jesus. Not MY truth, not YOUR truth, THE TRUTH. I hope Colby someday sees it. I'm glad there are leaders like Sean out there who are willing to tell The Truth in a loving way. I pray God gives me the grace to not get angry about those leaders who are misleading the public and using Gods word as an excuse.
Everyone, just keep praying for Colby. God can change anyone, anything & at any time 😊.
Even your ignorance
Wow, I really appreciate the calmness and civility that is being expressed in this debate. Each party is really willing to understand the other’s side, even if they don’t agree with it. I have been on a debate binge for a while now, and this is by far the calmest one that I have seen yet. Very refreshing.
All the civility in the world doesn't really prevent the endless splitting of the denominations and churches. The logical end to all of it will be that each individual will have his own religion and church. Imagine, a bunch of churches each with a congregation of one!
@@vgrof2315 very true brother.
Most of us are unaware that our nation had deep roots in taking manners seriously. Only THREE MINUTES IN, and already I'm impressed with the tone and attitudes being demonstrated, also that both are agreeing on "ground rules". Also appreciate that Sean is upfront with "this is my show but..." MORE examples of--and action towards--civility are REQUIRED for our nation to survive. God's blessings to both of you 🙏
Evangelical Christians have to use good manners, if you assholes actually revealed what fascist hatemongers you are then everyone would write you off as the garbage people you are. Evangelicals are the worst pieces of shit in America. You should all get in a boat and then sink it.
So sorry for Colby and realizing
how hard it must be to live in a world of decisions that you base on feelings and no absolutes. It was difficult to listen to his evasive non answers, unscriptural opinions. I think he said it all when he said, “That’s a god I want nothing to do with.”
I’m a widow living a life alone and trusting this is God’s will. He gives me my needs and walks with me. Please realize the Lord provides strength and trust to live a life alone. Is it hard? Yes, but God is sufficient, no more than enough❣️
❤
So true. And we need to not make marriage an idol. Marriage is also really hard.
@@daraharvey4519I wish I was married :(
Oh, you are soo right. Feelings can change like the weather. Mon u can "feel" one way, then Wed its something else. No foundation At all.
you can literally see the ego speaking in his eyes
Thank you Sean. Always keep going back to scripture and stand under God’s word.
mmaky
Thankyou Sean for being so, so patient and clear in your conversation. Such a helpful conversation. Thankyou Colby for being willing to come on too. Keep having these talks Sean, and please keep sharing them on line. Praying for you and Colby.
Colby is really likeable and has a great conversational style. He was completely able to speak his views accurately. His viewpoints and ability to give voice to them start falling apart when the rubber meets the road... like biblical definition of marriage. His answers after that all start offering philosophical ramblings and indirect responses. He remains completely likeable. I think we know that this all comes down to the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.
I agree. While likeable, he seems to be all over the place. And he admits that he doesn’t answer questions directly.
I agree as well… it’s like this, if you want to do what you want, ok fine, but don’t say it’s not wrong. People just need to admit that they’re doing wrong and stop trying to make what is wrong, right!
Perfect summary! He says outloud he has "crooked theology" Likeable. Doesn't seem to have any roots in Scripture. Then mentioned his "out" is he's "following Jesus example"
Yes! Most people cave to the "feelings" department. They choose to forget God is perfect and he condemns all sin!
You stated it well! I was listening to learn how Colby defined scripture that allows and even accepts his ideas. He did not provide Bible facts on the subject, only his opinions.
1:19:41 Colby’s thought on how his actions will be taken into account based on his works says all I needed to know about his theology.
Evangelicals have taken over a lot of youtube religious conversations but they are very much in the minority. Mennonites I liked working with because I remember going to a church meeting once and they told me "we're building a group home this week, and thats what we're talking about in church". They get into NO theological arguments or discussions and go with "Jesus said do good works, lets do good works".
That leaves NO time for judging others, something the evangelical faiths now seem to often ONLY do.
And then he compared him being wrong with Sean and said Sean would get judged more harshly. The arrogance and naivety showed strongly there .
So what's the difference between actions and works Einstein?
Faith without works is dead. Apparently folks seem to always forget that when they consider how they mistreat gays.
@@noblelies meaning what exactly?
If nothing else I appreciate Colby's heart for the hurting. That said, it seems like his strength (empathy) is also his also greatest weakness leading to bad theology.
Thankyou both so much for such a open and loving conversation.
When Coby said “that’s a God I don’t want to have anything to do with” I cried. It truly breaks my heart that this issue clouds peoples view of God so much.
I pray for him and for these conversations to keep happening and for soft hearts to see Gods truth. God is so so good and worthy to be praised even when we don’t understand his ways, they are so much higher then ours.
And I also pray for my heart to remain soft to be corrected in areas where I am wrong about.
That was seriously heart wrenching when he said that. I pray God's light and grace for anyone who believes that way. God's will and word is what is holy and just regardless, we can't judge it based on our feelings and Philosophy.
Sherry, Well said Thank You how you shared your heart. I feel like Wow God help me to be more like these men. Telling their truths to eachother. Do I condemn like the pharesees and not even realize it????
I mirror Colby's sadness for those who prefer an angry judgmental God that is on your side vs the side of unconditional love. I get his point 100pct. You've been inculcated with a God that you must feel punished by for being who God made you. And hate yourselves so much you must avoid the log in your own eye. It IS pretty sad.
@@desnock You so provoke me to rethink when God said we are all sinners saved by Grace. I've always thought God is a Loving God who understands why we choose what we do.I myself believed in things that when I studied out the word Bec my heart and head didn't match I shifted my point of view. God's word has brought me life and understanding that I could have never reached without him.
@@theresabriant6499Absolutely. Same is true of all who truly seek Him. I think you do, but unfortunately we both see some folks who CLAIM to be seeking Him who we can tell aren't really serious. That's as much reason to engage (or try to) with folks who are caught up in bad understandings of Christ, scripture, etc.
Our minds should always be ready (and our hearts) to changes God tries to write in us. Remember, dogmas are from men, not God. And God gave us not only the will, but instruction to discern (test by the fruits). If the dogma isn't of love? Discard it. Try to reason with those Pharisees as Christ did, but also realize that Christ said some who claimed to be His followers were indeed "evildoers". So we must be ever vigilant, and I am certainly called to defend those who God has created that have suffered mightily under these religious biases that Christ cannot be happy with.
This was a great discussion! I agree with the comment below that change is possible by the love of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. I struggled with homosexuality for 7 years and now I’m delivered. God can do anything in someone’s life.
I realize from this discussion that many people use feelings and experiences as their guide on what to follow and how they should live. In my opinion, many rather God adjust and bend to their feelings versus them adjusting and submitting to His Word. I know that we are all learning and seeking truth. We must be careful that we are speaking and sharing with accuracy what the Bible teaches, not what we feel or what we want to be true.
Hi. I just wanted to say I think it's great what God has done for you as that doesn't always happen. Sometimes people cannot rid themselves of same sex attraction. But still, just like any miracle, they happen when and if God decides, not on our own timing. Blessings!
Colby wants you to believe him over the overwhelming scripture reference. He throws in “your hermeneutical approach” which implies the new approach of the liberal theological approach is better than the last 2000 years of Leviticus, Romans interpretation. Colby fails completely in trying to prescribe a new interpretation and I can only assume he is moved by the latest 20 years of lgbt movement without acknowledging the Bible’s condemnation of same sex marriage. He just blows past it and cannot give a biblical response. He looks at moments of time in heterosexual marriage and says “it’s sinful” as well and therefore what? God created the Union of man and women period. The purpose was to unify and become one body and therefore give a better understanding of God himself. Be fruitful and multiply was the command of God to mankind. So where does LGBT fit into this plan?
@@dyn-o-miteessentialoilteam7162 agreed!
i’m sorry that you are this delusional
PREACH!!!
Sean, your communication skills are top notch. I love the way you closed this.
Watched this and your other talk with Colby and just want to thank you both for such a well mannered conversion about a difficult topic within the church today.
Sean - your example at the end of this chat (marriage is the primary metaphor that God uses to describe the relationship between Christ and the church and, therefore, twisting the definition of marriage is evil) was very powerful. Great example
There's more than one way of being Einstein
God doesn't have a gender
@formerfundienowfree4235 and seeing the eunuchs (homosexuals) were exempted from mf marriage by jesus as recorded in Matthew 19 this argument is more than stupid . It also presumes a definition of marriage was given , and an exhaustive one at that. 🤣
🤡🌍
@@formerfundienowfree4235Hod identify himself as He though.
@@camerong5513 Nobody said there wasn't more than one way of being. That's irrelevant. You can choose to live your life however you want, but if you're living contrary to God's word then you make yourself an enemy of God and those who do that will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
Thank you Mr McDowell. You were kind, compassionate, listened carefully, yet held tight to biblical truths. Great conversation from both sides.
Thanks. It was so nice to see two people discuss an important issue from opposite sides in a calm, loving and respectful manner. It's so much easier to learn from this kind of discussion than from one in which people are just putting each other down and trying to make themselves look good. We need more discussions like this.
I learn so much from Sean's 'style' and humility in speaking to folk with different view points from his. Thank you Sean for 'speaking the truth' with the love and graces of Jesus.
Why is 'speaking the truth' in quotes?
When giving their reasons why… one went to thoughts and feelings and the other went to scripture.
Yep!
One went to Christ's instruction and the other is coming to terms with rejecting the Pharisee's POV and seeing the good fruits that follow Jesus' commandments...
May be you're confused. God Bless!
@@desnock Completely agree. Sean went to Christ’s instruction. I see his guest has having a great heart but unfortunately Jesus did not call us to use our hearts to see His Word. The Bible actually calls our hearts wicked. He called us to let His Word determine our worldviews.
@@Brandoncannon No, you meant Colby went to Christ's instruction which you can see Sean struggling with to catch up with. Easy mistake as even Sean points out he's not relying on the Pharisee like legalism. Jesus does call us to discern and to love which is to rely on our hearts. If anyone misses this commandment, then that is a sad outcome indeed. I get the mistake.
People are wicked, like the Pharisees who twist scripture and whom Christ called evildoer. The love Christ speaks to from our hearts is infused in his ministry. From the Samaritan, to the healing of the Roman who came to take him to the Cross, to again, the Greatest Commandments which were love. Even Paul points this out in his (albeit non authoritative) way when talking about faith hope and love.
That you miss that saddens, but also proves the point Sean is struggling with in how many "believers" get it wrong. His whole reason for this was to point out the lack of compassion. He'll get there with the Holy Spirit work Colby is espousing to Sean, and you can see how it is changing his heart, which again I'm sad you see for yourself is wicked...but also likely just a method of espousing your dogma against Christ's teaching. That's meaningful, if you feel you should pray on it?
HIS Word, not the Bible, which are two different things. You do realize that the Bible we know of wasn't written in His time? And that He didn't edit it? Not trying to be facetious, but the logic you are relying on is probably the start of yours, and Sean's, confusion.
Colby says God is love - Jesus is God, and Jesus said after forgiving to ‘go and sin no more’. Can’t really say He got it wrong. Other replies here seem to think love means leaving them in their sins.
I really enjoyed this dialogue. For those watching these two for the first time, I’d highly recommend watching their previous conversation for more clarity about where they’re coming at this from. This one will make more sense.
Thank you both. Pray Colby hears God's word truthfully as he ponders on your conversation and searches the scriptures.
Frredom from shame is not license to sin.
Freedom is being able to say no to sin, It isn't always easy but we weren't promised an easy life.
Thanks again.
yea yea. 'k
1:23:05 - "I hope you are not right, because that's a God I want nothing to do with." This is the whole discussion right here. By saying this, he revealed his motivations. Do we love Christ and his law or not?
Do you support slavery then? Because passages like "47 “And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." Indicate that the Bible is ok with it, if you are not willing to use nuance and context.
If it is the case that someone is only willing to use nuance and context for passages that support a personal dislike of homosexuality then then they are arguably being inconsistent and cherry picking God's words to suit a personal agenda, which of course is the same thing you have highlighted.
This was a rich, thought-provoking, and very substantive conversation on what is a very challenging topic for a lot of Christians. Despite their theological differences, I can tell that both Sean and Colby are coming from a place of love.
Hi Colby Respectfully Why did GOD make woman if HE did not want marriage to be just a man and a woman
I love that you are talking so respectfully to one another. This gives me hope that the world can be better, even if we never agree with one another.
Colby knows his theology is wrong. But he prefers ambiguity because it’s nice. That’s why it takes so much for him to respond to a simple question.
This and that’s what progressive Christianity thrives on is ambiguity. The more lost you are the more enlightened you appear in their circles
Wow, thoroughly enjoyed your discussion - both pastors!! Gave me lots to think about....WE do not have the answers!
Honestly, if the conversation was more like this in years past, we could have saved so many lives. The church should reckon with that, and understand the damage it’s done. But thankful for these two and hope to see others follow this example.
When you say what the church has done in the past , what church are you talking about ?
When Colby made the comment almost at the end ….“ Thats the God I want nothing to do with” tells you everything.
Literally EVERYTHING! This is why people don’t accept Jesus. They want to do whatever they want to do.
Sean, bless you man, you do have much patience.
Sean you are a great example of being as wise as a serpent and as gentle as a dove. This is something I really need to work on. I appreciate your example.
He totally is
Very impressive
“That’s not the God I want” is the key statement in all of this
I seriously appreciate how you handle yourself and how you speak Sean. It's inspiring and it's the example I've been looking for when talking with those who disagree. Debate is fun, but it turns hostile quick. Your composure is healthy and beneficial for all.
Such a helpful conversation. Thank you both!
Wow! Colby! 💕♥️💕 thank you so much for sharing what is my also my heart!
I don’t believe we were meant to let multiple people into our bodies. I’m so sorry that this is so complicated for people. I thank God for his mercy to me, and the gift he has given me in my husband. Thank you for tackling this Sean.
Agree as well. Even though I’m not married and have had sexual relationships I do think now as a Christian it’s unhealthy to let different souls enter you.
@@jennifer8929 but its interesting that only when gay people do this is it considrred a " lifestyle" but when straight people do it, its not called the " straight lifestyle". There is a segment of the straight population that hangs out in straight bars, hooking up for sex, drinking, engage in promiscuous sex, even sadomasochistic sex, yet this is never called the " straight lifestyle". Interesting.
@@christopherscheiber1439It's called fornication.
@@barbaraperales8663 the description of homosexuality as a lifestyle is a blatent oversimplification of human sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular. The reason that we never hear the term " heterosexual lifestyle" is because there is no need to catogorize heterosexuality with such inherent connotative oversimplification in order to subconciously justify contempt and hatred through subjective comparison.
@@christopherscheiber1439 Yes, that is true; I agree.
Great, enlightening and civil conversation. Didn’t think this was possible anymore. Will come back to learn more.
This video is clearly bigoted
@@xstatic-ow5mz lol
@@xstatic-ow5mz yes I also found Colby to be arrogant by not answering questions straight on and as you rightly point out bigoted .
I love this conversation, I love the respectful debate. I also see Colby's compassionate heart! God knows all our hearts. God bless you all!
It doesn't matter if we are compassionate because if we are promoting ideas that are contrary to God's word then we are an enemy of God! No amount of compassion in one's heart can change that. Colby is leading people to hell and he will have to answer for it
I have said this many times in comments, the bible has been translated thousands of times. The word gay or homosexual did not even exist in those times. And was not even put into our Bibles until 1946. I have spent years translating the bible. My family is from Greece. The original word used by Paul was(I will spell them in English not Greek for you) " arsenokitai." This word has been compared to many writings before and after the bible was written. In all those writings when arsenokitai is used it is not referring to homosexuality, it's referring to molestation, sexual assault, abuse of some form. For example, you can find the word used in ancient Greek writings about the sins of the Gods, like when they talk about Zeus raping a young boy. We have many ancient texts using this word, non of them refer to the word as it was translated into English thousands of years later. Historically the original word "arsenokitai" never meant homosexual, it meant forced upon, assault of a sexual nature. Back in the days Paul was writing, young boys were being sold to people, most of them had power of some sort, or money, to be used for sexual purposes. It was a huge problem that Paul was addressing and condemning. This is the truth, and something Paul clearly would have felt strong about, and would have been against. So Cody is not leading anyone astray, he has done his homework, and obviously spent the time translating the bible as I have. It's actually an amazing thing to do for yourself. Finding out what the bible actually says, not just trusting one of the thousands of translations. Over all, the translations we use today are mostly accurate, but some things were clearly translated wrong, and changed the meanings of the original writings, this being one of those things, and a big thing in my opinion.
You're right God does know our hearts and colbys couldn't be further from God if he tried. He's just admitted that he doesn't want to serve a God with the values that God has given us . Why because it doesn't fit with his worldy life style .
@@laughsalot6847 it clearly states that man shall not lay with man as he would a woman . Same meaning but like you said there was no such words in those days
@@michaelmarshall9132 Exactly! He's more concerned with not wanting to give up the sinful desires of the flesh. And I don't think it's compassionate or loving at all to affirm someone's sin, especially someone who's supposed to be a pastor.
I would like to see an interview/dialogue between Colby and Beckett Cook. That would be very interesting.
That would be awesome
Great video Sean, really like the topic and very interesting to hear Colby perspectives on the Bible and how he reads and understands it. Thank you for making these types of discussions enjoyable to listen too.
This was a challenging discussion to watch, as I don't share Colby's position or perspective, however, I thank you Sean for your patience and ability to lovingly and openly have these discussions. I believe they are extremely important to hear, listen and discuss scriptural /doctrinal concerns with our brothers and sisters, even when we disagree (even more so when we do differ in view). I learned a lot today and I am glad I took the time to listen to Colby's perspectives. I will make an effort to get my hands on a copy of his book.
That’s a very good perspective. Even if we don’t agree with someone, it’s necessary to understand their views and be respectful and listen.
@@gfujigo This is true and also to challenge our own assumptions that we can be lazy or misled from. Jesus served this purpose, theoretically (though you might want to talk to the Jewish religion on where Jesus got it wrong, or the other religions that Judaism and Christianity borrowed heavily from).
@@desnock Thanks. Interesting points. Out of curiosity, where do you think Jesus got it wrong.
Thanks again and all the best to you.
@@gfujigo To be clear, I said what the Jewish religion said where Jesus went wrong and that is, that He was the Messiah. They obviously disagree, which is the point of critical thinking to realize that Christianity is a belief, one of many. And that only confirming our biases is what I was pointing out we can be lazy or misled from. Many things have been done in Christ's name (or even in the OT) that are demonstrably evil - selling one's daughter to her rapist (in Deuteronomy). Christendom has a list of sins to answer for - slavery, torture, murder, greed, abuse of little children sexually by clergy - and yes I could go on, unfortunately).
Presumably you are aware that much of Christ's attributes (and Judaism for that matter) were directly or indirectly influenced by previous religions that they drew from. Genesis myths, flood myths, ideas of heaven/hell and judgement, virgin births and miracles and messiahs. This is not to say any one religion is true or false, but that we cannot be scared to see what the scholarship is on these things so we are not bamboozled by confirmation biases or cultural apologism.
So this is why we "must challenge our own assumptions that we can be lazy or misled from." Make more sense? Apologies if what I said above was vague. People complain when I leave long replies, so I was uncommonly succinct in my responses. Apologies! :)
I’m glad Colby was willing to talk about this, and it was a very loving conversation. I couldn’t help but notice, though, just how confident Sean was in comparison. Colby seemed unsure of his position. I pray God helps him with what seems to me as a difficult struggle for him.
I am watching this a year later. The confidence Sean has with his understanding of the Bible and Theology and his peace and assurance of what he believes and stands for is such a huge contrast with Colby. Colby just shows a lot of stress and anxiety when trying to put his view and his theology with how it matches up with the Bible. To me that is very telling.
I saw this quote on the wall of a church building over 40 years back and it read, “𝙏𝙝𝙚 𝘽𝙞𝙗𝙡𝙚 𝙖𝙨 𝙞𝙩 𝙞𝙨, 𝙩𝙤 𝙈𝙚𝙣 𝙖𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙖𝙧𝙚." It is short, but quite insightful! With all do respect to Colby, God does NOT allow for men to ‘edit’ his Word, for his Word is immutable. 2 Peter 1:20,21 attests that,
“knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's OWN INTERPRETATION . For no prophecy was ever produced BY THE WILL OF MEN, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” (emphasis added).
That being said, people, more than ever, are misinterpreting the message of the Bible to accommodate it to their own views against moral values. An honest believer will be confronted and convicted by the Holy Spirit when behaving contrary to God’s will, and his Word! He will NOT interpret it contrary to its message! What other interpretation to the term ‘𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙬𝙧𝙖𝙩𝙝 𝙤𝙛 𝙂𝙤𝙙' when referring to the way God feel towards homosexual relationships?
Colby mentions Romans 1 (verses 18-32), verses he does not want to discuss because such a passage Specifically declares that God abhors the sin of homosexuality… period!! No ifs or buts about it! It is Colby’s choice to misinterpret a sacred passage of God’s Word.
As the quote read at the beginning, the BIBLE should be shared as it is, with no personal agenda that will twist its message; and so taught to all people in their current condition… thought process, biases, challenges, inner battles, values, experiences, sufferings, etc.
“Why do you care what I think…?”, says Colby. But Colby:
1. If you claim to be a Christian, do you care about the well-being of others? You cannot love others as Jesus love other, specially those of the household of faith. A TRUE Christian will love others; that includes their spiritual and emotional wellbeing!
2. It is important, specially as a spiritual leader, to know what you think, for if you are preaching or teaching erroneous doctrines, you need to be advised of that; otherwise, you will be leading other into erroneous doctrines as well.
3. And, never, ever interpret the Bible to defend your own misconceptions, biases, ideologies, discriminations.
Great dialogue. I'm excited to see the next video with Sean and Colby. I would really like to see a conversation on the topic of truth. I think that's one of the fundamental issues that creates the differences in this topic. What makes me say that is how Colby responds to questions. It gives me the sense that he sees truth as subjective to the individual based on how he answered a few questions like the question of how marriage is defined. He never actually gave a definite answer but it seems like his answer was more subjective to each person rather that an all encompassing definition applicable to all peoples whereas Sean gives more definite absolute truth types of answers that seem to be applicable to all people. I think this would make for a very interesting conversation. I love you both.
Props to Sean for being courageous to speak the truth scripturally and call out these fallacies. It's the most loving thing to do when people are in error, and leading others astray
The little boy suffering in a closet of self hatred and shame may not agree with your conclusion here.
@@cliffcarbone555 Lies are never the right way to handle things.
@@cliffcarbone555 It is a sad state that of self oppression. Come all who are weary and you will find rest.
Culture is more accepting to LGBT community than the what the Bible truly states because it is an issue of pride. If the Lord touches your heart, he will transform you for HIS GLORY. Not to be made socially acceptable.
The first step in following Christ is repentance and then follows baptism for the forgiveness of your sins to be made a new creature... the burial of the old man. You must recognize that you are fallen from grace before reaching towards it. Then comes the most beautiful confirmation of your existence in Christ. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Hallelujah! He radically transforms you and what you used to be a slave to and like you begin to detest and rebuke. And then you live your life in an ever growing relationship with the Lord.
Rejoice for he is near!
God bless
@@adrianruiz6091 60 years ago people were using the Bible to justify segregation and condemn interracial marriage. How many Christians still hold this view?
How many people will still hold the anti-LGBT view in another 60 years? Jesus was all about sticking up for the oppressed and overthrowing religious authority and rigid interpretation of scripture. I would be careful not to become a modern day pharisee.
@@CJ-oc2ff Who is talking about segregation? Who is is stating that anyone isn't welcome?
The Bible is the foundation of our faith. Either you believe in the whole of it or not at all, no nitpicking and personalizing allowed. Hot or cold... As far as I am concerned, taking a stance for what is right in the precepts given by God almighty in his word is always going to cause discomfort to the flesh. We are meant to be witnesses and be persecuted for speaking the truth.
I know that this is a "progressive" age for all sorts of thinking and philosophy. My argument is simply to surrender to what scripture says about everything. Period. I didn't write the Bible. But I do believe in all of it. People can come with all sorts of distortion to justify their Ego. That's why we are so divided.
If I saw you on the street I wouldn't treat you any differently, I would hang eat and talk. Pray for each other and move on..
But don't impose human philosophy on the word of God and try to sell it. Don't be deceived for in the last days everything good shall be called wicked and vice versa.
The fact that people pay more attention to apologetics instead of reading the word and letting Him transform every aspect of your life is a clear indication of prideful thinking.
Well you could state all sorts of arguments against fascist, genocidal, hypocritical concepts in the Bible but when the Truth reveals Himself in your life through the Holy Spirit, you realize that your pride gets in the way of surrender to Christ. We all fall short.
So, READ the word (not just verses), and whatever frustrations and battles you you have with his word, talk to Him about and let Him reveal it to you.
That's what millions of people have experienced when they surrender. -whoever CHOOSES to hold on to their life will lose it, but for those who give up their life will sure gain it. Jesus
God bless and much love,
I'm wondering if Colby has ever heard of the many men and women who have come out of homosexuality, who are living lives set free of homosexual desire and are married (and not forced to do so ) or who are single but no longer desire same sex relationships?
You don't know that they no longer desire it though, do you. If they live in fear then of course they have a reason to claim that they are 'fixed'
Great conversation! Very thought provoking on both sides!
Sean, you have supernatural wisdom and grace! Thank you for your willingness to discuss such difficult topics with people who totally disagree with you. You and your dad are a huge reason that I'm an apologist in training.
Love to hear it, thanks!
I find it scarily dangerous when I hear a pastor say that they don’t want a god who would lay out guidelines for living a God-honoring life. That’s exactly what we have in the Bible. If that’s NOT a god he would want, why does he claim to love and follow this one?
He believes there are guidelines. He just believes that the second greatest commandment is the guideline that trumps all the others. He believes loving people and not placing burdens on them that you wouldn't place on yourself (lifelong celibacy, marriage to someone you're repulsed by, etc.) is more important than rule-keeping. I disagree with some of the assumptions and cherry-picking behind that premise. But I understand why he feels that way. He truly believes he is defending God's love by rejecting what he sees as a legalistic God.
No idea why anyone bothers with the Bible any more. What’s the point? Life and nature work perfectly well without it.
@@scrumpymanjack The Bible is the revelation of all truth. Life and nature ''work'' without it sure, but you wouldn't know why it works, who makes it work, or what the meaning of life is in general.
@@scrumpymanjack does it? Seems to be falling apart and destroying itself. "Life and nature" being man left to himself is inherently selfish and with morals.
@@Masculai1z please prove to me that that is what the Bible is. If you do, I will go to church every week for the rest of my life. As the evidence stands, I prefer to look at the Bible as an historically fascinating but ultimately absurd attempt to explain the origins of life and the universe.
Great episode! Appreciate you Sean
👊
Thanks for the helpful conversation in exploring this issue more thoroughly. At times, Colby seemed to move between friendly, confused, and even somewhat tortured toward the end in articulating and understanding how truth relates to living. The struggle to realize that love cannot be the ultimate ideal because, without truth, we don't know what love is. For example, love can be the greatest relational value to Paul and the Church at Corinth (1 Cor. 13) precisely because the truth had been established in their relationship(s) (see 1 Cor. 5-7). Therefore, I encourage people like Colby to consider the truth of a belief before attaching a moral value to it based on how it makes him feel.
crap
That was such a great conversation!!! Thank you for engaging these topics!! It’s so valuable in our culture that fights and divides.
Our thoughts and feelings do not supersede God‘s word. Period.
That's absolutely true - we need to start that God and his word are the absolutes. We can then work from there - but we also need to respond to the LGBTQ community with love and compassion instead of taking the heavy hand right off the bat.
@@Elitynski I agree 100% We must show mercy and compassion for everyone and not just to the gay community. However, we should be direct and not be wishy washy with the word of God entertaining “progressive” thinking, which is contrary to the word. The commands are clear and not difficult to interpret. What did Jesus tell the prostitute after showing her mercy? - “Go and SIN NO MORE” [Jn 8:11] Repentance (turning away from sin and then turning to God’s commandments) should follow after we are forgiven. Peace and blessings.
@@vasignature Nice comments Victor, I hope some gay person benefits from your love and compassion. You are quite handsome too. :D Its not easy having SSA, living according to a traditional Christian ethic and not having support. Our faithful brothers and sisters need our help. It is true we need more compassion period, but this is a much neglected group--faithful LGBTQ Christians.
First of all, I want to say you guys have great hair cuts. Anyway, I have just returned from 12 years abroad dealing with multiple cultures and generations as a mission worker focused on preaching, teaching, and training believers to interpret holy scripture. This is my training and my heart. I encourage us all to conduct exegesis. This means to go to God's word and let it speak clearly based on linguistic and historical context. Let's strive to lay aside our presuppositions and conclusions that we already hold because if Jesus is truly Lord of all and creator of all He has final say. When we look at the first element of the gospel we find the forbidden fruit and the falleness that this brings to humanity. Sexuality and the marriage relationship was affected by this clearly. Genesis has many examples of those who act out of agreement with God's original design for their sexuality and in each case they have severe negative consequences. In addition there are many texts both OT and NT that affirm this concept. In the progressive argument I hear eisegesis which is the reading of one's own ideas into the text. There has always been a danger of forming one's ideas in the culture and then eisegeting those ideas into the Bible. The progressive idea being inserted is that we are made basically good and that our sexual orientation is essentially good no matter who it is directed toward. Also is the assumption that sexual desires must be acted upon generally. These ideas conflict with the essence of the gospel in that we are fallen sinners and every aspect of us (including our sexuality) has been corrupted by sin. As far as Sean, I feel much of his pain with those who in previous generations of "christianity" have somehow made this particular category of sexual immorality worse than any other type of immorality. This is also eisegesis.
Well put. ❤️ 🙏🏽 😊 🌿 🙆🏻♀️
I just found these videos. I think Pastor Sean did a great job with great patience.
Very interesting conversation. Gutwrenching to hear Colby's reaction to Sean's explanation of Biblical truth... It boils down to if he can't have God on his own terms, he doesn't want Him at all. Very sad.
I agree.Colby wants to justify this lgbtq way of living
Alternatively, Colby knows that a God who creates people’s natural sexual orientation just to reject their natural state isn’t very loving at all
There was little Biblical truth discussed here, just two men's opinions on things.
@@mads597 God is more than love. God is also justice and truth. Some things are true whether we as humans like it or not. He is the creator. We are the created. We get to decide if we want to follow God, but it's on His terms, not ours. You cannot pick and choose what you're going to follow in the scripture. JESUS said in the last days, many would cray out to Him and He would not acknowledge them by saying, he never knew them. Imagine that. Manipulating scripture to fit and justify your lifestyle and making God a liar because you don't like what His "rules" are. If you continue to sin without repentance (this goes for all of us and all of sin) then we're really just liars in general. The light is not in us. But we are all sinners, we should at least TRY not to sin and when we do repent-earnestly repent. We certainly don't throw ourselves parades and claim we are proud of it.
Alternatively, Colby’s idea of God loves all people, not just the ones like you and me. Scary, I know.
Sean, you are so wise in your answers and I appreciate how loving you are to those who believe differently from you.
Colby seems to be in pain. He has such compassion and love for the LGBT that he forgets God's love is even greater. The enemy has gotten a foothold here, let us all pray for Colby.
Minute 34. "I don't hold the same view of the Bible..." The root issue.
The letter kills. The spirit gives life.
@@DIBBY40 Good thing Gods spirit never contradicts his word ☺️
What a great conversation, I love both men’s ability to engage in a respectful, meaningful, and substantive conversation about a highly contentious issue.
Why is it contentious? Ever read Deut. 18? God says a man lying with a man as with a woman is an abomination. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for its depravity. Why is this open to discussion? Sin is sin. I never ask God to approve MY sins. I REPENT. Daily.
I had been free from the life style and it was only possible through the word of God, working in my life with His word to accept who and how I was created. It’s sad to see how we can ignore the truth and the truth is that we are blind to His word and when living in this lifestyle, but when we decide to believe God and not what I want that’s when we come through and find healing from our broken soul. It’s not that there is two diferente friends it’s when we decide to trust God and not our own thinking, at one point I felt like Colby but thank you Jesus you showed me your truth and now I’m free!!
Your truth is not someone else's. This is the mistake of the dogma that is promoted against the metaphor that was meant.
@Mike Hammer worshipping dogma against Christ IS a choice. Presuming that dogma is correct is not a valid argument to the validity of any dogma, otherwise others who claim superiority based on them saying God is on their team are equally valid. Problem is the claim is equally invalid.
Lifestyle? Articulate
@@coreyshaffer3903 the description of homosexuality as a lifestyle is a blatent oversimplification of human sexuality in general, and homosexuality in particular. Such indoctrination of the collective societal psyche is paramount to the self validating delusion of heterosexuality possessing moral validity. The reason that we never hear the term " heterosexual lifestyle "( even though one cannot describe homosexuality as a lifestyle without also describing heterosexuality as a lifestyle) is because there is no need to catogorize heterosexuality in order to subconciously justify contempt and hatred through subjective comparison.
@@christopherscheiber1439 👏🏽👏🏽
He didn't take the bait lol. I like to think of homosexuality as a love style versus the pejorative notion "life style"
Love your approach Dr. Sean Harris ❤!
Truly love this discussion. I appreciated your respect and heart, Sean. I think the way you speak is so kind. I am super impressed how you state your case. I love how you are grounded in truth
Thanks Kim. That’s my goal.
I really appreciated this discussion. The wonderful thing I see with both Sean and Colby is that they are maturing their understanding of LGBTQ relationships and maturing their understanding of the Bible by being humble, and by being willing to talk, listen, and learn. I love that they are both willing to grow. I loved hearing Sean empathize with the young man who was afraid to go to hell but who also felt like life itself was a hell, and I loved Colby’s decision to break out of the ‘echo chamber’ to empathize with a different perspective, and speak with gentleness and respect (and some great corny humor, lol).
In my eyes, Sean comes from a place of scriptural conviction seasoned with compassion for anyone wrestling with their sexuality and their faith. I really loved what he said about freedom not just being separated from hindrances, but also being united with something true, something purposeful, and something that is rooted in a nearness and trust in God. Jesus says there is freedom in doing what the Scriptures say (John 8:31-32), and Solomon writes about trusting God even over our own understanding and submitting to Him in order to straighten our paths (Proverbs 3:5-6). The tragedy is that humanity constantly fails to properly teach (or even to properly understand) what the Bible says. Professed Christians often hurt the very people they are trying to help (even if they have the best intentions) and often give hopelessness to others when hope in God’s love is exactly what others needed the most. Time and time again, people try to make an impact for God, but fail because they lack the crucial quality of character that can help them become more impactful (1 Corinthians 13:1-8).
In my eyes, Colby comes from a place of deep empathy for his fellow human beings, seasoned with a strong conviction that God’s love is real, absolute, and all-encompassing… a free gift for all, not just some (1 Timothy 2:1-4, John 3:16). I loved his understanding that humanity has failed in the stewardship of the gospel, time and time again. I think of Saul (before he became the Apostle Paul), a Hebrew of Hebrews, more studied and knowledgeable of scripture than most of the people he would ever meet, yet his life’s work actually led him to persecute, arrest and kill the very first group of Christians on earth. Jesus literally had to appear to him on the road to Damascus in order to stop him from persecuting more of his people.
As the scriptures say, “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death (Proverbs 14:12).” Imagine the impact a learned man like Saul would have had on others around him when he was persecuting Jesus’s people… many others would most likely have trusted his deep knowledge of scripture and his reputation in the community, and persecuted Jesus’s followers right alongside him. Yet notice the love and kindness Jesus shows to Saul on that fateful journey to Damascus, even at the violent height of his “scriptural conviction”.
Jesus does not mess around. He doesn’t play games. He knew God and knew the kind of Father God was, and he was determined for the rest of the world to really know Him too. He was determined to preach God’s Word exactly as God instructed, and love God’s people exactly as God commanded. It is a love that doesn’t compromise God’s instructions for sexual intimacy, but it is also a love that doesn’t hold back on God’s desire to give hope to all His children (every last one) and meet their deepest needs. God’s love is so unfair, but not in the way the world often tends to think. I think the Bible shows God trying to rescue and reconcile humanity to a love they were always meant to have, time and time again, and shows God culminating His plans for each and every one of us through the sacrifice of His Son, for our sins, on the Cross. God clearly defines sin, but He also - very intentionally - renders it utterly powerless by putting Jesus, His Son, in the place of anyone sin could have condemned, and calling anyone and everyone Jesus died for back to His side to give His kind of Love a chance over anything else the world tried to offer. A Love God always planned to give to us… a Love that the world could not even fathom.
I think God is the most Oprah of Oprahs. Everyone gets a second chance at Love, done His way. Because regardless of human history, our failures, hurts, or opinions, God is the genuine article.
I think the LGBTQ community is every bit as human, as beautiful, and as needed, as any other community on earth that is capable of love. I also think the Christian community has the potential to give real hope to human beings all over the world if the stewards and practitioners of the gospel do it from a place of humility, love, and a true replication of Jesus’s example. I think the distrust and hurt that keeps being caused between the LGBTQ community and the Christian community happens because there are lived experiences and scriptural understandings that both sides keep holding on to (and are afraid to let go of).
After listening to this discussion, I still feel that there are opportunities for more learning and more empathy. 1 Corinthians 13:1-8 calls us all higher regardless of which side of the conversation we fall on. Wisdom and knowledge that lack’s God’s kind of love is actually very unpleasant to the ear (and honestly a waste of time and effort for both the speaker and the listener), and sacrifice and piety without love (which often evolves into immaturity and hypocrisy) gains a person nothing. Yet God’s Love is ALSO a love that seeks the truth and does not shrink back from it or avoid it. In fact, God’s kind of love REJOICES in the truth. It looks at God’s whole message (not just the grace, but also the hard teachings and the limitations) and is still willing to give it a chance… still willing to trust God, Proverbs 3:5-6 style. Unfortunately this kind of love often looks like foolishness to the world (1 Corinthians 1:22-24), regardless of the community being called upon to put it into practice.
Where is the Christian who looks at any member of the LGBTQ community, any human being on earth, and fully understands that God sees both the observer and the observed as His children? Both sinners that He is excited to love and protect, delighted to help and support, and absolutely determined to have in his Kingdom if they both trust in Him and follow His Sons ways (2 Samuel 14:14, Micah 7:18-19)? A God that adds the names of the IMPERFECT to His list in Heaven, long before their journey is even complete (Luke 10:17-21)?
Where is the human that sees all the joy and pain of Gods Word (both the parts that are easy to understand and the parts that are hard to accept), and realizes God isn’t just calling us to learn His way and unlearn the world’s way, but that He is also our Coach, the athlete’s Dream Coach - the Coach of Coaches - in our corner, picking us up when we are struck down, believing in us when no one else will, delighting in our uniqueness and our potential, and encouraging us to keep going even when we are feeling utterly powerless, isolated, or ashamed (Jeremiah 29:11-14)?
I’m thankful to have found this conversation and I’ll be praying for more clarity, understanding, and love for all our communities involved. I hope this conversation gets revisited sometime soon, and I hope to hear even more refined perspectives from these great speakers when that time comes.
This was a fantastic comment, thank you for taking the time to share this!
Thank goodness for people like Sean, who have a heart for God’s truth and speak it how it is. If my doctor told me I was terminally ill I would want it him to be truthful about it so I could begin to either look for a cure or prepare for my demise. No pussy footing here!
Probably the best conversation I’ve seen on the subject. What role does our body/instincts/intuition play in truth vs. our cerebral interpretation of scripture.
Only thing missing is discussion of terms and translations of 1 Corinthians 6:9
Sean, I appreciate your example of how to have conversations with people who have drastically other beliefs. I'm learning from you!
Sean is really good at these kinds of respectful conversations. Good job!
This was powerful! Thank you to you both for lovingly listening to one another. In order to strengthen our faith, we must be open to hearing other ideas. Our small group is studying other religions, and we talk about these kinds of things with our children often because we want them to question, explore, and ultimately build a strong foundation scripturally that is their own, not just handed down from us. We cannot do that if we only stay in our echo chambers. I've been swirling around all day what Colby said about being free from shame, of not knowing what is good and evil before eating from the forbidden tree. I wish there were more opportunities from people on all sides of the religious and political tables to hear from one another, to truly listen and understand, so that we can love one another well. Ultimately, I believe God's Word to be holy and timeless, straight from Him, so I believe it and trust it. I know He has what's best for me! Thanks, gentlemen. Thank you so much for modeling civil discourse.
I’m glad it was helpful!
Thank you Sean and Colby excellent conversation.
Sean is so good at having these disagreements in a loving truthful way 🙌🏼
Wow, great conversation…both top notch human beings! Many of my own ponderings well explored and clarified. Thank you both.
Hi, Sean. Say, just wanted to say I thought the video ended with a great climactic finish. Your point on what we are Free to DO was one that really strikes a chord with me. Thanks for the video, just like all your other videos. You always have such great content and are not afraid to go outside of the echo chamber, which is more than I can say for a lot of CZcams channels. Blessings!
Colby ,as a precious brother, I hoped to hear the compelling argument, but it wasn’t there.The respect was there for both of you , thank you
You cannot support sin and claim to be my brother
@@Sirach144 , I agree that the arguement wasn’t well supported , I am in complete alignment with Sean. I am not going to make excuses for progressive ideology , but I also am not going to make claims of who is my brother and who is not . Only God is going to judge their hearts , I’m not going to judge imperfect ideology. Even the woman who grabbed Jesus hem had imperfect faith thinking the Jesus was healer not the savior of the world.
@@vonticehembree6083
I will make that claim. Look at the apostles and what they said.
”But now I am writing to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is a sexually immoral person, or greedy, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Are you not to judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God will judge. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.“
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 LSB
And Jesus is the savior of the world. He’s not some good role model. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Wow, I'm impressed for such a polite conversation. Thank you for this, it's pretty hard to watch two people talking about different options being calm
Keep the good work
Brother Sean amazing interview… amazing response and questions… God Bless you and your family brother 🙏🏼
Though I don’t understand “non answers” of the progressive side, I appreciate Sean’s style of engagement. Way to go man.
I appreciate Sean and Colby being willing to engage in a relevant and difficult discussion in love, with respect, and ultimately in the quest for truth.
Colby is not on a quest for the truth. God's word is very clear about homosexuality. A true Christian will not compromise on God's word
Sean ❤️❤️❤️
great job. Love tells the truth‼️
I have so much respect for Dr. McDowell. My heart is burdened for Colby and anyone who sits under his false teaching. He needs prayer.
Exactly! Either you believe in the Bible’s TRUTH,or not. You can’t pick and choose the word of GOD.God destroyed Sodom and G.
my heart is burdened for your detachment from reality
Sean keeps returning to the bible for truth. Colby keeps returning to his feelings. We should feel love and compassion towards LGBT persons, but we need to gently nudge them towards God's loving and perfect truth.
@@cathyphillips9120 that’s ironic because you have no access to truth. the bible isn’t truth. you believe in the bible because of your feelings and wishful thinking nothing more
@@Obscuredbywinds No. We believe the bible despite our feelings, because it is the word of God.
As someone who has struggled deeply with attraction to same sex in addition as desire my husband- accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior somehow has minimized my lust or desire for others. It is a relief I pray God continues to bless me with. It unnerves me and leaves me in awe.
I assume you are female. I'm a male who experiences with SSA. I thank God you have been able to find peace and able to reconcile your faith and sexuality. I feel my journey has been rewarding. I no longer consider this a struggle and I've found much peace, love and happiness. May God continue to grant you the same in abundance.
@@angelinadesanto672 That's true, as long as one's image of jesus isn't a projected narcissism. It's a kenotic experience rather than a projected self-image. maturity is easier the older one gets lol.
Same.
When a person can never give a straight answer on a topic means they are working so hard to twist it to match with their own ideas. There was not a straight answer to be found from Mr Martin and he even admitted it and I don't think it's a coincidence.
Very nice. About to listen. I am a new Christian and appreciate the discussion.
We can't 'will' eternal life based on feelings. I think for some of my friends, it's a grieving process in order to find the 'freedom' Sean was referring to. Colby really clarified the real struggle this issue is! Thank you for posting! 💗
We aren't willing eternal life, those that believe in it are feeling they are right. The irony is your faith is ALL ABOUT feelings and very little about consistency or self-reflection, as both Colby and Sean pointed out about so many so-called Christians who use Jesus as a bludgeon. But we know per Christ that means those bludgeoners aren't indeed Christian. The irony is notable.