Love this! The concept of consent and the concept of inherent value are connected. Consent implies inherent value, but inherent value does not imply consent. Consent with animals is a bit complicated, because they can't explicitly give it even for the actions that are beneficial to them. For example, if I take my dog to the vet to get a tumor removed the dog may not want that at the moment and with its limited intellect would not be able to give consent even if we were able to ask the dog, but we are clearly acting in good faith and are doing something that will purely benefit the dog. So is it moral even though there is no consent? I would argue yes, because clearly the outcome is best for the dog. My point being that I think consent hints at something more fundamental concerning animal rights and that is, I believe, inherent value. Do we value the animals' perspective or not? Perhaps the same line of questioning could lead to this? But anyway I love seeing you experiment man! ❤
That is a good point. After all, we are all vegans because we believe animals have inherent value due to their sentience. As for consent in the situation you described, I believe it becomes morally gray. Theoretically it should be moral, since it benefits them. But, then, should you be able to do anything you want to someone if you believe it benefits them?
@@veganpowerlab No, consent is important when dealing with adult humans, because otherwise we'd be denying each others wish for self-directed agency. With children already the case for consent breaks down though.
Really liked this video. 👏🏼💪🏽 All the questions leading to ask about animals were amazing. This is what i'd encourage other activists to do, to not always do the same thing or the same questions. But you make it interestingly different, Cip.
Coming from such a great animal defender, it’s quite a compliment. Thank you so much 🙏 I agree. Switching things up could make someone’s approach better. It could also make it worse. But, I think that it will always make them learn more, which is always good
@@veganpowerlab Great! But losing friends ( exaggeration) haha… but who cares! At least living honestly now. It was wilful ignorance on my part also knew nothing bout milk and egg industry till recently. Never ate beef or pork and stopped lamb in 2021. Namely pescatarian but dairy and eggs quite much. So far so good just some effort with new recipes but that’s no fuss ! In fact we getting much more creative and detailed in our food varieties. Hopefully I can add more value like how you guys I watch on CZcams . Thanks a tonne again for doing what you do! ❤️
@@GarudaLegends We human animals have moral agency. Also, we have tons of vegan options available to us that we don't have to eat animals to survive. In fact, we can thrive by eliminating animals from our diet. That being said, veganism is not a diet...it's a lifestyle! 🌞
@GarudaLegends Hahaha.. your argument’s logic is flawed and so is your data. First off, a simple google search will reveal plenty vegan centenarians. Second, the premise that if someone lives above 100 then what they ate is healthy is ridiculous. In fact it’s been debunked countless times by non vegan doctors and scientists. There are people who lived over 100 and smoked. Does that mean smoking is healthy? So, you have no empirical evidence for your claims. So, then, why do you spread misinformation?
Honestly, I’m still not sold on it. It has its merits, for sure. Like, the open minded people might get the idea better. But, the close minded ones still find excuses
I think the number helps with realizing that your impact matters, even if it seems small. Other than that, yeah, it’s hard to get exact numbers. I think that one kfc menu is more chickens than most people “kill” in a day
@@jjradV thank you. yes 3 times (or more) a day, 365 days- i feel they are responsible for even more deaths than the animals they are actually eating. the cow that produced the milk for the butter they put on their toast will be sent to slaughter as well as the calf who was born to produce that milk, male or female, on top of the deaths for eggs and bacon. (and this is just breakfast). a dozen chicken wings is 6 deaths, ice cream for dessert, and so on…..
@@djcat64 i just deleted my comment bc i realize cip already said the same thing. i wd just add i feel over here the number is closer to 1,000 or more per year considering there’s some form of animal products in basically every meal
Are you claiming plants can feel pain? Are you telling me that for all these years I should have been giving my rose bush an anesthetic before pruning it?? 🤡🤡🤣🤣
Yesterday, I chose not to include cod & lamb in my chain store grocery order. I ordered from local producers instead. More expensive but I don't want them to cease trading & $500 - $1,000 USD/yr isn't that big a hit. Nutrition's such a🍑!🤓👍
@@veganpowerlab I care primarily about human nutrition. The adequacy of 100% PB diets isn't proven &, until it is, removing all access to animal products would be highly unethical.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme So, if you were to find out that you can survive and thrive on 100% PB, you would stop paying for animals to be exploited, abused and slaughtered?
@@veganpowerlab I'm in the V space because, ~5yrs ago, 100% PB was my intention. Why state 'survive and thrive'? Thriving includes surviving but I'm not going to settle for the latter.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme I ask again, if I give you empirical evidence that you can thrive on a PB diet, would you stop paying for animal exploitation, abuse and slaughter?
I grew some plants for fun and my grandparents were farmers. But, that’s about it. Why? Are you gonna say that it’s not true what happens in the dairy industry? Or are you gonna go the route crop deaths? Or yell pesticides?
@@veganpowerlab I think many vegetarians don't realize that the vegetables and grains on their plates are the spoils of the corpses of various living things, such as animals and insects.
@@veganpowerlab It may sound rude, but I would appreciate it if you could listen without misunderstanding. Extreme vegans are generally the vast majority of relaxed nerds who have never even had a handful of dirt on their hands. They have no idea how many lives have to be destroyed to create a field.
@@veganpowerlabThe vegetables and grains that vegans like you and I eat are all artificial, created by destroying nature and killing and eradicating the original inhabitants of the land. I'm not saying this is bad This is just a natural cycle and the way humans have lived and lived until now. The same goes for meat-eating. I think it's a problem that people in affluent countries eat too much meat, but If we had to feel guilty just for eating meat, the only food humans would consume would be water.
these ladies may have half hearted invisible ( like their earth star chakras ) post traumatic stress disorders caused by ingesting creatures loaded with cortizone created there by extreme unaceptable fear and misery they got lovey accents though lovely girls sure theyl be healed to their way to whats best 🌬️🌼🌼🌼
@@veganpowerlab i think at an arena a very visible all seeing situation ( like celebritys ) i can be just a bit too big for my boots especialy at the unknown edges of expansion as with ( like celebritys ) theres a huge huge responsibility for to make the world a better place for any individual not by oh we do this dark thing then that may make it better later but do the good thing now 🌬️🌼🌼🌼
So close, yet so far. If you cannot get consent, you stop whatever you're about to do. You don't just shrug your shoulders and go "Well they can't consent so lets just use them anyway."
@@veganpowerlab No, because that would be morally wrong. If animals are equal to us then we can't even exist in our society and claim to be moral, so we can just accept that animals are below us or go live in the wild.
Would suggest folks try Huel...maybe Bryan Johnson's recipes...but many vegan products are junk...plenty of canola oil / other seed oils...and of course will be full of pesticides / herbicides. For UK folks, in terms of minimise the damage to the environment, I did listen to a talk on the subject that concluded pork was a food source with minimal impact on the environment (acknowledging there is fundamental suffering). Remember, flying nuts and avocados from the other side of the world has a huge impact on the environment.
Provide empirical evidence for your claims. Otherwise, I may have to remove your comment. I don't condone promoting animal exploitation, but seen as it's a moral issue and morality is subjective I let that slide. But misinformation, no.. I won't have any of it here
@@veganpowerlab I would say comparing humans to any other species is dumb. You know it is. Anything that happens in nature is natural, whether it is bad or not is a moral question. I eat animals and animals also eat animals. Even some plants eat animals. Who are you to taint it good or bad? You think it’s bad, don’t eat. Let others navigate using their own moral radar.
@@veganpowerlab of course it is bad. It is not comparable to eating. If you kill for pleasure I also find that morally bad, but if you eat what you kill, that’s totally fine by me. Now answer me Mr consent, do you value animal life more than human or plant life? Do you think humans ask consent for killing other humans? Why are you fine with eating plants, if I understand your premise, plants cannot give consent either, why double standards?
@@astronaute I have a system of value where certain individual are valued more than others. Surely you would agree that family and friends are valued more than strangers.. And, yes, strangers will value more to me than most animals, yes (maybe with the exception of pets, if I had any,). Just because there is a clear hierarchy of value, doesn't mean that I get to just slaughter individuals because I can. As for plants, plants are not sentient, thus incapable of emotions or feelings. But, even if you would believe that they feel pain (which they don't), you would still reduce harm greatly, since being vegan kills less plants (most of the plants we grow are for animals). Shouldn't we strive to reduce our harm as much as possible and practicable? Now, given that you can get the same nutrition from plants and plant based products, then when you choose to eat an animal product you do it based on taste (which is a pleasure). So, the animal doesn't die for sustenance, but for taste preference (a pleasure). How is that different from zoophilia exactly? You inflict copious amounts of harm to a sentient individual because you want to get pleasure
I understand that his philosophy is 'you need consent before you do anything to someone else (animal or human)'. I don't really see how that can lead to a justification for killing humans. Can you elaborate/explain your reasoning?
This was my question as well. Do sharks ask seals if its ok to chomp on them? Native tribes with no modern contact eat meat. Should they follow veganism as well? I don't think consent is a winning argument. However, I could see an argument being made for the ethical treatment of animals for food. Sustaining the meat supply is difficult for our population. We no longer hunt for food. With that, we have developed methods to mass produce animals for consumption. These methods aren't very humane in some cases.
Do you always derive morals from what lions do? Cause, lions also r4pe others. What if we used the argument “lions don’t need consent” in the context if r4pe?
@@veganpowerlab Sorry we are still just animals at heart. We need to eat meat, if you don't you grow weak, you grow stupid, and you lose what it means to be in tune with nature. Vegans do more damage to the enviroment then meat eaters as well.
@@veganpowerlab You are shifting the argument. Take a step back from mammals and look at jellyfish. They eat other animals and as far as I am aware don't commit sexual assault. The point is that in the animal kingdom (of which we are part) animals eat other animals without consent. If you want to advocate for the ethical treatment of animals used for food, I am with you. To say humans shouldn't eat any animals is absurd. Without modern agriculture, you'd be eating meat with the rest of us.
@@NainKaigo so, is your argument that I couldn’t be vegan in the past? I disagree, but let’s assume that’s true.. so what? I am still presented with 2 choices now: one full of violence, exploitation and abuse and the other without.. why would I ever choose the former?
Brilliant work Cip , always good .
Thank you, Martin 🙏🤗💚 and thanks for being there at the premiere
The way this guy structured his argument is 🧑🍳🤌
I’m glad you liked it. It’s a new method that I tried out that day
I like this new approach, and those girls were lovely, honest and open. Great work 🤗💚
It was a good approach. But, it doesn’t work with everyone, as you’ll see in the next video
Testing out the reverse engineered project so soon after working on it in the Lab with Logical Consistency.
Love it!
Yes.. I am trying to find what works best. This has been an interesting method.
Thanks for watching 🙏💚🤗
Beautifully done!
Thank you so much 🤗💚
Love this!
The concept of consent and the concept of inherent value are connected. Consent implies inherent value, but inherent value does not imply consent.
Consent with animals is a bit complicated, because they can't explicitly give it even for the actions that are beneficial to them. For example, if I take my dog to the vet to get a tumor removed the dog may not want that at the moment and with its limited intellect would not be able to give consent even if we were able to ask the dog, but we are clearly acting in good faith and are doing something that will purely benefit the dog. So is it moral even though there is no consent? I would argue yes, because clearly the outcome is best for the dog.
My point being that I think consent hints at something more fundamental concerning animal rights and that is, I believe, inherent value. Do we value the animals' perspective or not?
Perhaps the same line of questioning could lead to this?
But anyway I love seeing you experiment man! ❤
That is a good point. After all, we are all vegans because we believe animals have inherent value due to their sentience.
As for consent in the situation you described, I believe it becomes morally gray. Theoretically it should be moral, since it benefits them. But, then, should you be able to do anything you want to someone if you believe it benefits them?
@@veganpowerlab No, consent is important when dealing with adult humans, because otherwise we'd be denying each others wish for self-directed agency. With children already the case for consent breaks down though.
👋
🤗💚
Really liked this video. 👏🏼💪🏽
All the questions leading to ask about animals were amazing.
This is what i'd encourage other activists to do, to not always do the same thing or the same questions. But you make it interestingly different, Cip.
Coming from such a great animal defender, it’s quite a compliment. Thank you so much 🙏
I agree. Switching things up could make someone’s approach better. It could also make it worse. But, I think that it will always make them learn more, which is always good
Thank u. Keep up the great work. My partner and I are 3 months vegan now. ;)
That is awesome to hear! 🤗💚 How's it going so far?
@@veganpowerlab Great! But losing friends ( exaggeration) haha… but who cares! At least living honestly now. It was wilful ignorance on my part also knew nothing bout milk and egg industry till recently. Never ate beef or pork and stopped lamb in 2021. Namely pescatarian but dairy and eggs quite much. So far so good just some effort with new recipes but that’s no fuss ! In fact we getting much more creative and detailed in our food varieties. Hopefully I can add more value like how you guys I watch on CZcams . Thanks a tonne again for doing what you do! ❤️
2nd
The corn king 🤗🤗💚
Thank you for speaking up for animals 💖💖💖💖
Thank you for watching 💚🤗
Great job spreading awareness😊😊😊💖💖💖🐄🐖🐑🦃🐔🐠🌱🌱🌱
Thank you so much, Nataly 🤗💚
But "mayonnaise" tho! 😂 Seriously though, this was a great conversation Cip. I appreciate what you do for the animals. 👍🌱💯💚
@@GarudaLegends We human animals have moral agency. Also, we have tons of vegan options available to us that we don't have to eat animals to survive. In fact, we can thrive by eliminating animals from our diet. That being said, veganism is not a diet...it's a lifestyle! 🌞
GarudaLegends, any empirical evidence for your claim that “humans need to eat meat” to survive? Or is it a “trust me bro” argument?
@GarudaLegends Hahaha.. your argument’s logic is flawed and so is your data.
First off, a simple google search will reveal plenty vegan centenarians.
Second, the premise that if someone lives above 100 then what they ate is healthy is ridiculous. In fact it’s been debunked countless times by non vegan doctors and scientists. There are people who lived over 100 and smoked. Does that mean smoking is healthy?
So, you have no empirical evidence for your claims. So, then, why do you spread misinformation?
Loving your work Vegan Power Lab💗💗💗💗
Thank you so much. Call me Cip 🤗💚
@@veganpowerlab Hey Cip!
💚💚💚💚💚🌱
Ally 💚💚🤗💚💚
I had my doubts on this consent angle fearing that it would always vere to pets but, so far so good. 👍👍
Honestly, I’m still not sold on it. It has its merits, for sure. Like, the open minded people might get the idea better. But, the close minded ones still find excuses
Third
💚🤗💚🤗💚
15:31 at first I thought you were doing a happy little skip after a good conversation. I didn't realise you'd dropped your sign
Haha.. no, the wind blew the sign away. Although a happy skip could’ve been warranted. They were open minded
This is great stuff!
Glad you enjoyed it 🤗💚
Nice approach
Glad you enjoyed it! 💚
great video as always!!
i’m always puzzled tho when you cite “100 animals per year “ bc i feel here in the u.s. its easily 10x that
Yeah I reckon the number would be way higher too
Hard to measure though.
I guess the number is irrelevant, the action itself is what matters
I think the number helps with realizing that your impact matters, even if it seems small. Other than that, yeah, it’s hard to get exact numbers.
I think that one kfc menu is more chickens than most people “kill” in a day
Greyskyvegan,I agree with your comment.
365 days in a year, the majority of people I know eat animals every day.
@@jjradV thank you. yes 3 times (or more) a day, 365 days- i feel they are responsible for even more deaths than the animals they are actually eating. the cow that produced the milk for the butter they put on their toast will be sent to slaughter as well as the calf who was born to produce that milk, male or female, on top of the deaths for eggs and bacon. (and this is just breakfast). a dozen chicken wings is 6 deaths, ice cream for dessert, and so on…..
@@djcat64 i just deleted my comment bc i realize cip already said the same thing. i wd just add i feel over here the number is closer to 1,000 or more per year considering there’s some form of animal products in basically every meal
Great video very good job sir fair play.🌱🌅🍀
Thank you so much 🙏🤗💚
Very good 👏👍🙏✌😊
Happy you liked the conversation 🤗💚
You can apply this logic to the plants, too. And I don't think they can consent.
Why is consent important?
Are you claiming plants can feel pain? Are you telling me that for all these years I should have been giving my rose bush an anesthetic before pruning it?? 🤡🤡🤣🤣
The fact that your obviously ripped is great!! Go Vegan Power!!
Yesterday, I chose not to include cod & lamb in my chain store grocery order. I ordered from local producers instead. More expensive but I don't want them to cease trading & $500 - $1,000 USD/yr isn't that big a hit. Nutrition's such a🍑!🤓👍
So, you don’t care about the animals suffering. You just care about the business
@@veganpowerlab I care primarily about human nutrition. The adequacy of 100% PB diets isn't proven &, until it is, removing all access to animal products would be highly unethical.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme So, if you were to find out that you can survive and thrive on 100% PB, you would stop paying for animals to be exploited, abused and slaughtered?
@@veganpowerlab I'm in the V space because, ~5yrs ago, 100% PB was my intention. Why state 'survive and thrive'? Thriving includes surviving but I'm not going to settle for the latter.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme I ask again, if I give you empirical evidence that you can thrive on a PB diet, would you stop paying for animal exploitation, abuse and slaughter?
Great work. Thank you. Be vegan everyone 💚💚💚💚💚💚
Thank you so much 🙏🤗💚
Excuse me, but have you ever tried farming for a living or survival?
I grew some plants for fun and my grandparents were farmers. But, that’s about it. Why? Are you gonna say that it’s not true what happens in the dairy industry? Or are you gonna go the route crop deaths? Or yell pesticides?
@@veganpowerlab I think many vegetarians don't realize that the vegetables and grains on their plates are the spoils of the corpses of various living things, such as animals and insects.
@@veganpowerlab It may sound rude, but I would appreciate it if you could listen without misunderstanding.
Extreme vegans are generally the vast majority of relaxed nerds who have never even had a handful of dirt on their hands.
They have no idea how many lives have to be destroyed to create a field.
@@veganpowerlabThe vegetables and grains that vegans like you and I eat are all artificial, created by destroying nature and killing and eradicating the original inhabitants of the land.
I'm not saying this is bad
This is just a natural cycle and the way humans have lived and lived until now.
The same goes for meat-eating. I think it's a problem that people in affluent countries eat too much meat, but
If we had to feel guilty just for eating meat, the only food humans would consume would be water.
@@user-ke7wh5lk4l What does that have to do with animal rights?
these ladies may have half hearted invisible ( like their earth star chakras ) post traumatic stress disorders caused by ingesting creatures loaded with cortizone created there by extreme unaceptable fear and misery they got lovey accents though lovely girls sure theyl be healed to their way to whats best 🌬️🌼🌼🌼
They seemed open minded to me. They listened and they were willing to change
@@veganpowerlab i think at an arena a very visible all seeing situation ( like celebritys ) i can be just a bit too big for my boots especialy at the unknown edges of expansion as with ( like celebritys ) theres a huge huge responsibility for to make the world a better place for any individual not by oh we do this dark thing then that may make it better later but do the good thing now 🌬️🌼🌼🌼
Animals cannot actually speak. So they cannot "Consent" in the way described. This is void of actual logic.
The third question actually mentions that. But, let me ask you, what do you think of zoophilia?
So close, yet so far. If you cannot get consent, you stop whatever you're about to do. You don't just shrug your shoulders and go "Well they can't consent so lets just use them anyway."
OK, what is the point? So animals need to give consent, so no pets, no zoo or wildlife reserves. We don't need to ask animals.
What is the point? The point is to consider also them. Not to enslave them needlessly
@@veganpowerlab Why? We eat meat, it's the easiest way to stay healthy.
@@colinguyan9704 if the easiest way to stay healthy would be to slaughter humans, would you do that?
@@veganpowerlab No, because that would be morally wrong. If animals are equal to us then we can't even exist in our society and claim to be moral, so we can just accept that animals are below us or go live in the wild.
If I were to have a pet, your value would be less than that of my pet. Would that justify me killing you or treating you as an object?
I love meat
Do you believe animals should have the right to their own life?
Would suggest folks try Huel...maybe Bryan Johnson's recipes...but many vegan products are junk...plenty of canola oil / other seed oils...and of course will be full of pesticides / herbicides. For UK folks, in terms of minimise the damage to the environment, I did listen to a talk on the subject that concluded pork was a food source with minimal impact on the environment (acknowledging there is fundamental suffering). Remember, flying nuts and avocados from the other side of the world has a huge impact on the environment.
Provide empirical evidence for your claims. Otherwise, I may have to remove your comment.
I don't condone promoting animal exploitation, but seen as it's a moral issue and morality is subjective I let that slide. But misinformation, no.. I won't have any of it here
This is so dumb, consent only applies to humans. Otherwise start by asking a lion to get the consent from an antelope before using this analogy.
Would you say zoophilia is bad?
@@veganpowerlab I would say comparing humans to any other species is dumb. You know it is. Anything that happens in nature is natural, whether it is bad or not is a moral question. I eat animals and animals also eat animals. Even some plants eat animals. Who are you to taint it good or bad? You think it’s bad, don’t eat. Let others navigate using their own moral radar.
I ask again, do you think zoophilia is bad?
@@veganpowerlab of course it is bad. It is not comparable to eating. If you kill for pleasure I also find that morally bad, but if you eat what you kill, that’s totally fine by me.
Now answer me Mr consent, do you value animal life more than human or plant life? Do you think humans ask consent for killing other humans? Why are you fine with eating plants, if I understand your premise, plants cannot give consent either, why double standards?
@@astronaute I have a system of value where certain individual are valued more than others. Surely you would agree that family and friends are valued more than strangers.. And, yes, strangers will value more to me than most animals, yes (maybe with the exception of pets, if I had any,).
Just because there is a clear hierarchy of value, doesn't mean that I get to just slaughter individuals because I can.
As for plants, plants are not sentient, thus incapable of emotions or feelings. But, even if you would believe that they feel pain (which they don't), you would still reduce harm greatly, since being vegan kills less plants (most of the plants we grow are for animals). Shouldn't we strive to reduce our harm as much as possible and practicable?
Now, given that you can get the same nutrition from plants and plant based products, then when you choose to eat an animal product you do it based on taste (which is a pleasure). So, the animal doesn't die for sustenance, but for taste preference (a pleasure). How is that different from zoophilia exactly? You inflict copious amounts of harm to a sentient individual because you want to get pleasure
This philosophy is troubling because you can use it to justify killing a human over an animal. Animals are not the same as us.
I understand that his philosophy is 'you need consent before you do anything to someone else (animal or human)'. I don't really see how that can lead to a justification for killing humans. Can you elaborate/explain your reasoning?
Does the lion need consent? You have inspired me to have chicken wings, and a steak for dinner, no vegitables; afterall killing carots is murder.
This was my question as well. Do sharks ask seals if its ok to chomp on them? Native tribes with no modern contact eat meat. Should they follow veganism as well? I don't think consent is a winning argument.
However, I could see an argument being made for the ethical treatment of animals for food. Sustaining the meat supply is difficult for our population. We no longer hunt for food. With that, we have developed methods to mass produce animals for consumption. These methods aren't very humane in some cases.
Do you always derive morals from what lions do? Cause, lions also r4pe others.
What if we used the argument “lions don’t need consent” in the context if r4pe?
@@veganpowerlab Sorry we are still just animals at heart. We need to eat meat, if you don't you grow weak, you grow stupid, and you lose what it means to be in tune with nature.
Vegans do more damage to the enviroment then meat eaters as well.
@@veganpowerlab You are shifting the argument. Take a step back from mammals and look at jellyfish. They eat other animals and as far as I am aware don't commit sexual assault. The point is that in the animal kingdom (of which we are part) animals eat other animals without consent.
If you want to advocate for the ethical treatment of animals used for food, I am with you. To say humans shouldn't eat any animals is absurd. Without modern agriculture, you'd be eating meat with the rest of us.
@@NainKaigo so, is your argument that I couldn’t be vegan in the past? I disagree, but let’s assume that’s true.. so what?
I am still presented with 2 choices now: one full of violence, exploitation and abuse and the other without.. why would I ever choose the former?