Why the Post-Tribulation Rapture? With pastor Joe Schimmel // THE RAPTURE & ENDURANCE OF THE SAINTS
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- čas přidán 30. 10. 2023
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The Rapture and the Endurance of the Saints Episode 40: Why the Post-Tribulation Rapture? With pastor Joe Schimmel
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It's so cool you have Pastor Joe on. I love watching his sermons and documentaries. They have a very special thing over at Blessed Hope Chapel and on Good Fight. May the Lord bless and keep you and shine His face upon you.
I feel the same way😊
⁸I am
First timer to hear Joe Schimmel. Yes, he does need to slow down. Excellent teacher just like Joel Richardson. I am Apostolic Pentecostal. I've been asked to leave because I asked too many questions about the Book of Revelation and The End Times, particularly POST trib. I thank God for my strong POST TRIB parents, who taught the Book of Revelation and Jesus' return all of my life! It is shocking to see how many Apostolic ministers either refuse to study Revelation or afraid to lose church members!
Oh HE DID!!!! Joe slowed down a great deal for this interview.
He's normally faster. Speed talker
You were asked to leave your church, for asking questions?! 🤯 wow! Just… WOW. That’s unreal isn’t it? It blows my mind that I’ve heard more stories about people being kicked out of their church bc they insist on clarity and the truth.
Unless of course I’m mistaken and that’s not what you were meaning in your comment.
Not surprised at all. Dispensationalism has the Western Church by the throat
I came out of an apostolic Pentecostal church too
Joel Richardson is really articulate though. It's him who I really understood about Post Tribulation Rapture. All glory and credit go to Yahushua HaMashiach Jesus Christ
Wow, I used to attend Blessed hope chapel when I lived in California, still watching and attending on live stream. God bless you Pastor Joe Schimmel
Two of my favorite teachers together🙌🏽🙏🏽 thank y’all so much! Blessings dear brothers
Can't wait for the Two Prophet's of God and Jesus Christ to Come ! And Bear their Testimony for 3 and a Half Year's ! Sad The Vast Majority of People will Totally Reject their Testimony !
Great to see our Pastor Joe and Joel!! . I pray that you two will continue to be used mightily to warn the body of Christ concerning the truth of Scripture regarding the end times.
Brother Joe is a great teacher on the post trib Rapture.
For anyone who thinks Joe goes to fast, it really helps to turn your video speed down to .75, or even 50. Then he sounds like a normal talking speed. It's quite amazing the difference
0.90 is great
This is awesome brothers.. Praise the Lord!
Joel Richardson, Please put all your lessons Refuting the Rapture together in one Playlist .... please & Thank you!
There is one...
Just WOW! What a powerful conversation. My first time hearing Pastor Joe Schimmel. What a heart, & what a light! Praise God!
Thanks brothers! For raising up your voices in these unprecedented days!
But is so sad that the church is still so numbed up and distracted!!
😞
I have received so many bad comments and being put aside by my pre trib brothers and sister from my congregation, just for being post trib.😢
You’re not the only one. We get mocked. Let’s be courageous with the truth! God bless. 😊
blessed are you. they will hate us exclude us , cast out our names as evil.
5 years ago when I started to talk about it I also lost all my friends and Christians did very unchristian like things to me .. . Like moved out of the city and didn't say goodbye or even let me know they were moving.
It was not fun at all.
Last year I started to go to a different church after 7 years being away. Some of the people from my old church are there. The pastor did a study in Revelation And I challenged his teaching on pre trib.
The response was very different. While the pastor told me I was flat out wrong other people didn't reject it and were more open to hearing.
This is major movement as far as Im concerned. Also 5 months later the pastor said he does see that more teachers are mid trib than pre so he has shifted his his position .
5 yrs ago nothing close to this happened so God is moving hearts.
@@Jesuswins7do you know how to KNOW that you are correct? Those who are wrong will mock, criticize, scoff and reject you PERSONALLY!! They stop being friends. But those who are correct on their doctrine stand on the truth without taking pot shots at others and we don't mock or walk away.
It's the same attitude/reaction that the left/Dems have. They mock, over talk, name call and don't let you finish your sentence. They shut you down b4 1st sentence is out. This is a demonstration that they are wrong and they know it deep down.
Those who stand on any truth ... Like there are just male and female .... Don't have to resort to those theatrics.
Best in the series Joel!!!
Talk about abiding in the Word! Saturated!
Praise God!
I will definitely have to listen to this again and do so with it slowed down just a bit. I listened while out caring for my goats and chickens.
Anyways from what I gathered currently I feel that he is close, but not quite there because of what some other scriptures say.
This subject is one that I too have had a passing passion for until about 5 years ago. I say passing because I didn't fully pour my heart into understanding it I just knew beyond any doubt that not one church I had gone to was correct because the scriptures do not teach us pretribulation rapture.
Amen, and bless those that continue to seek better understanding by dwelling with the Spirit while listening, questioning, and offering up their current understanding.
The Lord put it in my spirit in 2014 while fasting 21 days that we are part of the two witnesses, Jews and gentiles.
I love you both brothers In Christ Jesus Our Lord 🙌🙌🙌
Wow that's amazing to hear! it's what I have gleaned from scripture too. ❤
God always gives His truth my the mouths of two to three witnesses. The two witnesses are two Old Testament prophets that are now teaching New Testament truth. Let that sink in a minute…It’s similar to your idea yet it merges them into one.
@@annigard8can you explain that pls. Do you mean to say there are not 2 actual OT men who preach on streets of Jerusalem? But the saved Jews and gentiles are the 2 witnesses?
I don't see how that can be? For they will lie in street for 3 days. Can you explain plz. Tks
So a bunch of christian believers and the jews are going to kill the wicked with fire, which come out of their mouth, will turn water into blood and pour out all kind of plagues? Then we get all killed and our dead bodies will cover the streets of Jerusalem? The two witnesses are obviously Mose and Elia.
Tis is a GREAT conversation brothers. I always tell my pre-trib brothers & sisters top pray for the pre tribulation escape but prepare for the post tribulation rescue.
We are here for the tribulation to speak to people about the Lord and try to save a soul
The tribulation will be the church’s finest hour
Amazing 2 pastors i love listening too
I thought the same thing, seal, trumpet, bowl. Seal, trumpet, bowl...all the same. I was scolded for it. But i continue to hold to it.
One challenge I'd have for Pastor Joe. Luke 17, Jesus describes how the world will be operating normally for unbelievers like in the days of Noah and Lot, and just before the wrath of God hits, the same day, Noah and Lot are rescued from it, but the rest of the people, ate and drank and planted and built and got married.....
Who's planning weddings or building homes during the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls?
Who is at all caught by surprise by Jesus at the end of the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls? Apocalyptic stuff will have been happening for months or even years at that point, supernatural apocalyptic things at that.
In a pre-wrath framework, the great tribulation is just for believers, the wicked world goes on as normal, so like the days of Lot, the righteous are persecuted and mocked about warning of the end of the world, while the wicked who persecute them go on like everything is normal.
Then Lot is taken out of Sodom, and sudden destruction. But for the trumpets and bowls it's the wicked who will not be living normal lives during them. The 5th trumpet, targets everyone who is not sealed to God, the 1st bowl, targets those who took the mark of the beast. During the 5th trumpet, who among the wicked being tormented is planning a wedding or building a home or planting fields? What about during the 1st bowl? A foul and noisome sore breaks out... so they plan for the future building a house and planting crops and getting married?
"They're already being conditioned to not serve God if they have to go through the tribulation"
I've heard PASTORS flat out say they will reject Christ IF He makes them go through the tribulation.
@cryptojihadi265 Yes its also what I think. Some pretribbers has their faith in the rapture instead of in Jesus. Thats why there has to be the tribulation to test all the peoples hearts. I often hear its not important whos right in escathology but it will be when that time comes. To be prepared has another meaning than they think. Christians need to hear: What if you have to go through the tribulation? If we know what will happen and when we are as prepared as we can be. Its like war, no one can really be prepared or image how it will be.
That's wild!
@@thomasgrans3303 that's a great way of putting it, faith in the rapture instead of Jesus. Pretty much nails it.
This is great to see a genuine man of God Joe on here with Joel. Though I was extremely shocked and disappointed to see Joel associated a couple of days ago with Vladimir Savchuk.
Praise the Lord Joel could minister to him and his audience…. Isn’t that just like Jesus? Shining Light and truth in places needed….even so come Lord Jesus and may all our hearts be ready for your return ❤
What's wrong with Vladimir Savchuk? Please be detailed and specific about what you mean
@@educational4434 To be detailed and specific would be too time intensive. Vladimir Savchuk is a pert of the new movement of "Demon Slayers" along with false teachers Isiah Saldviar, Kathryn Krick, Mike Signorelli etc - these people are teaching a false gospel and a different "Jesus" - Vlad teaches that True saved believers can be possessed by demons that need to be cast out - this is blasphemy against God Holy Spirit. Vlad teaches that people are possessed by the Jezebel, Python, snake, Leviathan spirits - this is deception, false doctrine.
Gonna have to listen to this at least 10 times and take notes thank you guys
I have the truth by God's grace, I know we're saved by Jesus. So if pre-trib happens or I/we walk through God's wrath, know this we're saved who believe. So I die/murdered in the end times I'm/we're saved regardless. Fear not ❤ can't wait to meat Jesus and fall on my knees and give thanks. ❤ oops, I forgot say I'm 64 known of God my hole life. And God shocked me wake. I'm try to learn as much as I can. Unfortunately I was never taught to read drugs alcohol 60s 70s 80s and military kept me in the dark. Self taught to read by the grace of God and he's saved me my whole life. So end time what a ride let's go God's children. ❤
Absolutely the right attitude.
Although I am mid-trib, it is refreshing to have a post-tribber clarify that the post-trib position is NOT the same as the newer 1990 pre-wrath position. Good job Pastor Joe!
I was really looking forward to this teaching. Joel, you usually do a great job of stopping the flow of information and clarifying. But this time sooo much information was presented so quickly that it was impossible to digest it. Would love to hear you break it down for us. Thank you!
I appreciate Joe Schemmil's heart, but it's so hard to listen to him because he speaks so fast and his speech is sometimes slurred. He gets into spouting information that he doesn't take time to explain anything. I wish Joe had a speed switch to slow him down. 🤣😂🤣😂 I think Joel was shocked at the amount of information that came out of Joe's mouth. 😂😂😂
I lowered the speed to 0.75, but it was still to quick for me, having a hearing problem, I was just lost. But what I understood in general, I agree with Joe 100 %.
I uploaded a 7 minute video summarizing what Pastor Joe spoke about. Link is: czcams.com/video/6XKyrxl0NQ8/video.htmlsi=vhWqhhPNaURSmEnJ
@@EBRoyJr, I agree with you 100%. I could only listen to him a few minutes. I do hope that Joel breaks down all he said. I’m sorry but he spoke waaaaaay too fast for me.
I agree with you, Jill, 100%.
This was very enlightening and helpful. A book collaboration would be quite a blessing to the body of Christ who are seeking truth.
Irvin Baxter, rest in peace. Also exclaimed that there are a lot of parallels and that there are the same events being described by different views in the book of Revelation...
Two men I admire very much! Ty for this! ❤❤
CLAIR-IT-TEE!!! Superfantastic teaching guys. I really enjoyed it. Now of course I want to go and find it all for myself. Many many thanks to both of you. Blessings each and everyday.
Do not be confused by false doctrine.
There is no clear Scriptural basis for an early pre-tribulation rapture.
One might see my post just above for explanation and Scriptural reference.
My two favorite teachers! Yay! 👏 🤗
Thank you so much! God bless you both! 🙏
Blessed to see my two favorite prophecy teachers together! Praise Jesus! Check out Good Fight Ministries!!!
Great talk brothers.
WOW!! I am so excited to see Joe Schimmel on here !!
I love Joe Schimmel! He’s one of my favorites- a real truth speaker
Excellent conversation! 💥👍
Todah rabbah gentlemen 🙏 Well done w/ brotherly love & respect (more than warranted for some, IMHO🤨).
Much appreciated👍
I’m finishing the book The Last Shofar by Lenard and Zoller and it does a good job explaining the differences in pre/post tribulation. I highly recommend that book and Nelson Waters CZcams channel to supplement you guys’ excellent teaching. 😀❤️
Hey this is so awesome you teamed up with Joe Schimmel! I love both of ya'lls channels!
Thank you for having in Pastor Joe on Joel. I have been watching his teachings for many years. I have learned so much through the both of you men.
My whole Eschatological world was turned upside down back in 2017. Thanks to you and your books Joel. As well as others amazing men of God like Joe, Alan , Art Katz and Reggie Kelly...
Thank you for all you do. Maranatha
Wow! My two best rapture teachers! Amen!
Well, technically aren't they your two best anti-rapture teachers?
@@educational4434 technically you have no clue on what you’re saying. Because we believe In a RAPTURE 😆 so how can they be anti rapture kid. If you believe in the pretrib rapture. I’m willing to show you how foolish it is???
@@Keepitoriginalministry I'm not sure why you're speaking like this to me. I'm not a pre-tribber. And neither Joe nor Joel believe in a classical modern dispensationalist rapture. They believe, as I do, in the return of Jesus followed by our meeting him. That isn't a rapture. In fact, if you read the verses related to what people refer to as a so-called rapture, you will see that the people who are taken are those who are killed, not those who are saved. The ones who are left on earth are the ones who are saved. Two will be in a field, one will be taken, the other left. If you continue to read the context of these passages you will see that the one who is taken is killed
@@educational4434 okay, you are one of those brothers that don’t believe in a rapture at all. Well I agree with you that those taken are going to hell. ✅
But we definitely disagree about is being caught up with Jesus in the clouds
@@Keepitoriginalministry No, we are in agreement, because I believe in meeting Jesus in the air as he returns to the entire Earth in full site of all people. But I don't call it "The Rapture", I call it the return of Jesus. If I were to call it "The Rapture" people automatically would assume I'm talking about being taken up from trouble on the earth for a good chunk of time like in the Left Behind series, when that is not what I'm describing.
What I'm describing is the same thing Joel and Joe describe in this video. They might call it "The Rapture" for the sake of simple clear communication with their listeners who definitely understand the idea of the pre-tribulational rapture, but what they're really describing is the return of Jesus to Earth.
I'm not sure why, but pre-tribulationists really seem to struggle with the idea of meeting Jesus in the air as he returns to Earth. Think of it like running out to meet a family member walking towards you in the distance in a large field. They are walking towards you and would eventually arrive to where you are, but instead you run out to meet them in the field and then you both walk back to where you originated from. Now just think of the same thing but the field is the air
Follow both of your Channels. Pastor Joe is solid in his theology. Keep up the good work.
Praise God for removing the confusion ❤
IMHO Yeshua Hamashiak comes back when all of His prophecies are fulfilled. He commands us to keep watch and pray. Shalom and blessings!
Great video. God Bless Brothers!
Awesome...I watch both of these channels. So good to see this episode.
I got say I love the intro video the music and all
Pastor Joe finally took a breath 42 minutes in...
Praise God for He is good!!
His enthusiasm is as amazing as his knowledge….Three hours of commentary but only an hour to do it in.
This was great! Thank you both.
I've been listening to Pastor Joe's sermons since I watched this video. This man is a treasure! Preaches the true Gospel with accompanying sound doctrine and doesn't teach pre trib!
I just love Good Fight Ministry. What has always worried me with the pretrib folks is exactly what pastor Joe says here, that if people are caught off-guard with the tribulation, endurance in the face of persecution will be lacking and people can fall away from the faith.
Its our reason for being at this point
Pastor Joe is the best pastor out their right now Glory to God for this man he's from good fight ministries CZcams and blessed hope chapel CZcams
Well... Beside Joel and Dalton and Chuck Baldwin.
(And of course we cannot forget the late David Wilkerson. )
These 4 are all we need.
🏎️ so fast gotta watch more than once.....Love you brothers, pray for the eyes of my heart to receive the Word of the Lord. Maranatha!
I appreciate so much Pastor Joe (and Joel) and I think it is good to go back through anyway....so I am happy to.
You can use the CZcams playback speed tool to slow it down. 0.75x works well.
Great teaching,Both of them are great teachers . Another one I listen to who’s a great teacher is Pastor Mike Hoggard , also a post Tribber .
Pastor Joe making an appearance on _The Rapture & the Endurance of the Saints_ with Pastor Joel is cool. I first found out about Joe Schimmel from his documentary _The Submerging Church,_ which exposed the postmodernistic and relativistic emerging church movement.
I'm listening to yall and reading 2 Thessalonians well I get to verse 10 in chapter 1 and there it is. Paul says when Jesus comes He will be glorified in His saints. We are called saits just like in Revelation
You can adjust the player speed to .75 in settings so some of what this guy is saying can be understood a little better...
God please help Joe and Joel.
Will discuss this on the way up. Very very soon.
Pre trib boys!
Tribes mourning could be Israeli tribes mourning like from Zechariah.... In Rev 13 the sea could be the nations and the land Israel!!!! Just a thought
To comfort those in dire straits
One of, if not the most educational, the absolute best teachings on end times prophecy and the resurrection. I have one question that has always bothered me about all of this and it is this: why is it necessary for Satan to be loosed again after a 1000 years of being bound? What is the purpose of that? Is his deception for the last 6000 years not enough that he has to be loosed to deceive again for a short time? Makes no sense to me. Any comment from Joel or other subscribers would be great.
love brother Joe!!!!!
When the first trumpet and bowl events are recognized as the tribulation period, now everything falls into its proper place, and we see that both the post tribulation and pre wrath eschatology is the same and correct, just two separate ways of describing the same moment
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days (first trumpet/bowl events) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
It all fits…
What I understand is pre wrath doesn’t have us go through Trumpets nor bowls , but yes to the ac persecution, basically like 5.5 yrs of the 70th week
The post trib seems to having us go through every thing…
Question , if we all get raptured at the end end , who will populate the earth then ?
The wrath of God is explicitly defined as being the contents of the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15-18; 15:1 & 15:7) which begin to be poured out after the 7th trumpet _of the 7th seal_ (Revelation 16:1).
That the above events do not encompass any part of the period of tribulation is made clear in Matthew 24:29-31, in which Matthew recorded Jesus as having said that the signs of his coming (those signs matching Revelation 6:12-13 of the preceding, _6th_ , seal) would appear immediately after the tribulation _of those days_ . Therefore we know that the 6th seal signs will appear immediately after the end of the tribulation.
In Matthew 24:29, when Jesus said "after the tribulation of _those days_ ", the logical understanding is that he was referring back to the previous, and only, mention he had made of tribulation in the same monologue: i.e. Matthew 24:21, when he informed the apostles that great tribulation would exist by the time that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies (cf. parallel Luke 21:20) when the 2nd temple would be destroyed.
The plain understanding gained from Matthew 24 is that great tribulation had begun by that time and will continue until the signs of Christ's coming appear at the 6th seal. The idea of any 7-year tribulation period is not based on scripture and is an invention derived from a deliberate misinterpretation of the prophecy of Daniel 9 by people who had particular objectives in mind to distort the popular understanding of end-times events.
Makes sense to me, things overlap at some points until u get to 7th trumpet & bowl which then it is finished and King Jesus is here & our Lord for 1000 yrs!
Pastor Joe was a fast speaker, but in the main I managed to keep up with it. Very interesting discussion…I now have a new study to embark on…the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and bowl. Hmm always considered them consecutive but perhaps adjusting that idea and looking from a different angle may reveal an angle that fixes ALL the problems with let’s face it all views, something just isn’t quite right. So let’s look from a different perspective.
I will have to listen multiple time to catch it all though. Thank you brother Joe, very much appreciated. I shall check your sites/channels etc.
Blessing to both of you.
Maranatha
The seals are consecutive. This is evidenced by the fact that the signs of Christ's coming (note: coming, not arrival) will appear (per Revelation 6:12-13's descripton of the 6th seal), according to Matthew 24:29-31, immediately after the tribulation, whereas the various verses in the Bible pointing to Christ's arrival to gather the saints point to that event occurring at the "last trump" and "voice of the seventh angel" which is a reference to the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal, i.e. the last trumpet of Revelation and of the Bible itself. The 7th trumpet also demarcates the time of the outpouring of wrath.
You can use the CZcams playback speed tool to slow it down. 0.75x works well.
But I believe we will be protected as Scripture says pray that
YES Joel you got the story is told multiple times 2nd coming told 4xs.Rev 12 summary
the answer to Joel's question as to a scholarly work demonstrating the parallel / cyclical view is found in the great 19th century scholar Henry Alford in his Greek Testament, introduction to the book of Revelation. Joe S. is spot on.
That would be awesome if the two of you wrote a book on this subject.
You would have to take up speed reading lol
The trumpets, and bowls happen at the same time like this.
#1 trumpet / #1 bowl
#2 trumpet / #2 bowl
ECT...
Jesus is right there he said (after )
When Jesus comes the save are saved going with Jesus to heaven , the lost are lost forever , no more chance … there’s no secret raptures .. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 , for the Lord Himself will descend from heaven wt a shout , wt the voice of the archangel and wt the trumpets of God , ( so loud that even the dead in Christ from the graves will be resurrected ) the resurrected saints and the living saints will go with Jesus to heaven .. what a rejoicing that will be in Jesus ‘ presence amen …and wicked dead will be resurrected after a thousand years only to be given their just rewards ( hell ) Revelation 14:6-12
Joel, I believe that if you look at the Seals as an overall summary of all that will happen in the end times, and the Trumpets and Bowls as a more in-depth and focused look at the events happening at a specific time, then the possible contradiction that you see does not exist.
Well said…I was thinking same thing!
The seals summarise the order of events and then the trumpets and bowls give detail to what those events will be. I don’t know if the happen at same time but I’m beginning to thing there is another answer, because we haven’t eradicated all difficulties with any of the positions. We need to look outside of the box or at least look at it differently. I suspect much we believe is correct, but, we are…just missing a piece??? We are just missing something??? 🤔
I Believe when 2 witnesses are called up from death we too which are alive and remain will be caught up too (rapture)❤❤❤
That is what my mid-trib friend believes. Now If only I could find a way to correlate that with post trib. 😅
Both perspectives are pretty close. Very interesting
Jesus comes and the dead in Christ rise first, then we who remain 👀
And in Greek it even says:"who are left behind" --- ohyeaaaaaah
Phew.....Great day brother..lol
Thank God for Joel and that's all I have to say about that. 😂❤
Irvine Baxter Jr has materials regarding the overlapping of the trumpets, seals and bowls. Has had for years.
Just hush and let pastor Joel speak🎉
I love it when the host says, "I going to let you talk" but🤔 continues to talk 🤭 All in love brother 😅
Joel, It would be awesome if you had Steve Moutria from Torah Family on to discuss eschatology. That would be a really great discussion.
GodBlessU brothers!!🇮🇱🕊👑
😂😂😂😂😂 Joel!…. ashes from getting high while reading the book of revelation… I think I peed myself when you said that
I like his dogmatism and passion for what he believes is truth. A serious problem though is that scripture is very clear that the trumpets don't even begin to sound until the opening of the seventh seal. Revelation 8:1-4 (NASB95): 1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.
Thus, it is impossible to overlay the Trumpets and Bowls with the seals.
Only seal 1-6 are in sequence, seal 7 is a reputation of seals 1-6. Rev 6:12-17 is the end of the story, all things are finished. All what you read, you have to put into the right timing, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowel are both at His 2.coming, the Day of the Lord, the day of His wrath, Rev 6:17 and 11:18. His wrath has come, that is at His 2.coming Rev 19:15, all the same event, the same as 16:15-20, with the mountains moving (16:20+6:14).
@@benny-yj7pq No the seventh seal is not a recapitulation of the first six seals, read the trumpets, they don't even match the seals.
@@benny-yj7pqThe DOL Wrath begins with the trumpets and concludes with the bowls.
@@benny-yj7pqHow can we have any of the Wrath of God overlaying the seals if the souls underneath the altar in the fifth seal, haven't even recognized God judging their persecutors.
I tend to agree with you; however, when I remember that chapter and verse divisions were added later, I can see that, if they had put the chapter division between between Rev 8:1 and 8:2, instead of where it is, I might read it as follows:
- Rev 6:1-8:1 -- The complete progression of the 7 seals, including the return of Christ at the 6th seal, followed by the sealing of the 144,000 and the appearance before the throne in heaven of those coming out of the great tribulation; then the 7th seal, silence in heaven for 1/2 hour.
- Rev 8:2-11:19 -- The complete progression of the 7 trumpets, interjected (after the 6th trumpet) with descriptions of the mighty angel with the little scroll, and of the two witnesses. The 7th trumpet brings a proclamation that the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord and His Messiah. This section begins with "And I saw . . ." Although John SAW these events after he saw the 7 seals, that doesn't NECESSARILY mean that the series of trumpets cannot begin until the seals are completed. It could just be another group of events, for which we don't know the timing.
But the trump card for me is this: after the 6th seal is broken, and before the 7th, Rev 7:1-3 says that the four angels empowered to hurt the earth, sea, and trees are told to wait until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. And who are these four angels? The first four angels of the trumpet judgments: the 1st burns up 1/3 of the earth and trees, and all green grass; the 2nd destroys 1/3 of the sea; the 3rd poisons 1/3 of the fresh water; and the 4th darkens 1/3 of the celestial bodies (which would further hurt the earth). So none of the trumpet judgments will have occurred before the 6th seal in which the 144,000 are sealed.
Jesus is truth keep the faith
The church rapture is at judgement day
John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times, and it's all there in Revelation 20
Love this video. But I have one word.....Decaf!!!
Joe is correct! Jesus is very clear of when we will be raptured in Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I have a TON of respect for brother Joel and Pastor Joe and was so excited to see them on the same podcast! I hold to a post-trib pre-wrath/mid-week rapture but certainly am open to an end of the week rapture as both these brothers teach. On another point, I think it is a mistake to view the great tribulation as the entire 7 yr/ 70th Week of Daniel. Jesus said that the great tribulation would be SHORT (see Matt24:22). So it seems to me that the tribulation is not a 7 yr period but a short period (possibly nuclear war and only lasting a few weeks or so?). I would love to hear these two brothers teach on this plus the "times, time and half a time"/ 3 1/2 yrs as spoken of in Daniel.
I question the entire 7th week gap theory and don't think this could possibly be true. How can there be a gap in time?
I think gap is yet another false teaching by Darby to make his pre tribulation rapture make sense.
The judgment of Dan 9 was 490 years and we see 490 years from the wall building of Nehemiah to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad.
(I saw the dates b4 but I can't at moment remember exactly when the 490th year lands)
But I know it makes no sense whatsoever at all to suspend 7 years from the 490 years.
Like when has THAT EVER BEEN DONE BEFORE??
It was largely Alan Kurschner’s teaching that helped me leave pre-tribulationism behind. I lean more post-trib these days. I believe the 6th seal is the 2nd coming, rapture, and resurrection at the end of the tribulation. However, Rev 8:1-2 shows the angels being given the 7 trumpets after the 7th seal is opened. I don’t see how the angels could be blowing the 7 trumpets before they’ve received them which makes the seals and trumpets being concurrent a hard sell for me.
Use your brain, if Mat 24:27-31 and Rev 6:12-17 is the end of the Great Tribulation, and ALL things are finished (Dan 12:7), then Rev 8:1-2 is a reputation, that gives us more details, what happens in Heaven and on earth during the last 3 1/2 years in the Great Tribulation. The wrath of God (orge) comes after 6:16+17 four times more at His 2.coming. Revelation is not written in sequence. The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowel end both at the day of the Lord, a 24 hour day (Zech 14:7).
@@benny-yj7pq nice reply. “Use your brain”, I’m sure you win a lot of people to Christ with that kind of condescending attitude.
Like you, I can't get behind any of the concurrent or overlapping schemes I've seen proposed.
One explanation I've heard regarding "at the last trump" claims that this is not the same thing as the 7th angelic trumpet, but that "the last trump" was a Jewish idiom referring to the last trumpet blown every Yom Teruah/Feast of Trumpets. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this claim; it may just be an urban legend manufactured by pre-tribbers in answer to the post-trib insistence that the resurrection/rapture can't come before the trumpets. Unfortunately, the scriptures give us very little information on how this celebration was conducted, other than that it was to be a day of blowing trumpets.
It does make sense to me that Paul, in writing to the Thessalonians (before Revelation was written, and the seven angelic trumpets were first revealed), could have been referring to the feast of trumpets. I just wish there were some concrete evidence.
@@scbt2888you're right my brother
@@benny-yj7pqthis is wrong, don't confuse the tribulation period with the seventieth week or the DOL. Both are in the seventieth week, but are distinct.
Yes we are taken up and then Jesus takes vengeance
If you use Matthew 24 as an outline you can see the overlap in revelation!
Yes, yes, yes!!! I agree with Joe 100%!!! Finally, someone who understands the book of Revelation. God gives us a serious warning for adding to the book of Revelation, like adding a 'secret rapture' that just does not exist. Here is the scripture:
Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Brother Joe talks at 100 MPH🤣. Gotta play at half speed to catch the truth...lol.
Glad to see him on here.
Joel, this is the best post trib explanation video yet. I used to be sure it was a prewrath rapture (kinda: "at the last trumpet") but this has me rethinking the idea of Revelation being sequential. However! You're not done with this series until you address the 7 thunders. Nobody talks about those.
And yeah, like Joe said, I'm going to have to watch this again. Blessings from Yahuah!
Last trump is the second resurrection
The church rapture is at judgement day
John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times, and it's all there in Revelation 20
@@squirreljones3595can you explain this better pls. ... Like you are teaching it. Tks much
@@destinycoach5
Yes, I would love to
Revelation 20 5
But the rest of the DEAD lived not again until the thousand years have finished. This is the first resurrection.
Daniel 12 2
And many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The second resurrection in Revelation 20 sounds exactly like Daniel 12 2
1 Corinthians 15 51 & 52 SLEEP and DEAD
The saints that overcome the Mark of the beast have Bible verses that promise them white robes and the thousand year reign of Jesus
Revelation 7 14 white robes
Revelation 20 4 thousand year reign
The church doesn't have one Bible verse that promised them white robes or the thousand year reign of Jesus
John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times.
Matthew 24 36 Jesus says no man knows the day except the Father
Jesus is truth
Jesus doesn't make mistakes
Jesus is talking about two resurrections
Revelation 20 shows two resurrections
One is called the first resurrection
One is at the Last day of this old earth
Four verses after the last day
Revelation 21 4
God wipes away the Bride's tears
Christians that die before the Mark of the beast are the Bride of Christ
They don't need their resurrected body for anything until New Jerusalem
Revelation 4 old Heaven is spirit world
Revelation 21 New Heaven New earth New Jerusalem with no more sun moon time or night
Every time the pre wrath first resurrection is mentioned
Only the saints that overcome the Mark of the beast are mentioned
Revelation 15 2
Revelation 20 4
Revelation 7
1 Thessalonians 5 10
Wether we wake or SLEEP
John 5 29 sounds like Daniel 12 2
Good luck. Jesus is truth
Joe knows!!!
I wonder why Joel never talks about the 7 vials? He always says seals, trumpets, and bowls but the vials happen before the bowls and after the trumpets
Great conversation, but oh man, that Pastor Joe talks so fast that it made me feel anxious to listen to! I slowed it down to .75 playback speed and found it a lot easier to digest without the dialogue sounding panicked. The slowed speed actually felt like a normal pace 😂
I will have to reread the transcript to capture all he said.
In studying God's word it came to me that if the pretrib was authentic than nobody would be a spokesperson for those left so none would be repentant.??? To have a hence to be redeemed. Thoughts?
as to the structure of Revelation, as pre wrath, most often, and I agree with this, is that there is a recapitulation and the trumpets and bowls may occupy the same time period. Use Revelation 12 as a reset button in Chronology and what you end up with is 2 depictions of tribulation -> Jesus coming on the clouds (6th seal, Revelation 14:14-20) -> Saints in heaven (Rev 7 and 15) -> wrath of God (trumpets/bowls) -> establishing the Kingdom on Earth... in the same order.
In Revelation 7 they're said to have overcome Great Tribulation (5th seal), and in Revelation 15 they're said to have overcome the beast, his name, his image, and his mark. Same things, but different details.