The Importance of Good Undergarments
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
- #HOTDCostumes #HouseoftheDragonCostumes
In this video, I do explore the importance of good underwear (foundation garments) and why they are critical to the silhouette of the House of the Dragon Costumes. This video is based upon my viewing of the HOTD pilot episode The Heirs of the Dragon, still images released by the studio, teaser and trailers.
Warning, there are mild spoiler for Hous of the Dragon (show only)
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There's an argument, I suppose, for saying that late medieval gowns weren't based on corsetry or stays, so that's why they avoided them in HotD. There's another argument which I've seen a lot in costume communities which say that equating corsetry with the patriarchy is overdone and silly, so perhaps that's another reason the designer avoided stays? It's hard to say.
But I don't think either of those arguments are relevant. The fact that many of Rhaenyra's gowns are poorly tailored and built over lumpy strapless bras is SO distracting. It looks terrible. Come on, Jany Temime! The girls need support!
If Temime wanted to avoid stays, there's ways to go about it that are much more flattering to the actors. There's first-rate medieval style gowns in the 1997 Ivanhoe and the 2018 Ophelia, which fit well and are beautifully designed too. But those depict the styles of earlier periods, whereas the styles in HoTD are largely Renaissance inspired, a period with much more structured clothing.
Tl;dr: I have no idea what Temime was thinking. Poor Milly Alcock deserves better!
Hey Suburban, thank you so much for the awesome comment. 👌
I tried to consider if there was an “in universe” reason for this and the best I could come up was that the Targaryen women wore fewer under pinnings because they were Dragonriders and since dragons have a much wider range of motion then horses their riders must also have a great range of motion to stay on safely and therefor they skipped or had alternate underpinnings. Other women adopt the style of the ruling family.
Hey Kristen, I would have no issue with their dragon leathers which as we have seen so far include wearing trousers. But these are their court costumes that I am speaking about.
@@Costume_CO I’m quite late to the discussion, but
The light garments of the south of Essos shown in GOT are probably dictated by the climate of the place, they should have the same climate as the fallen Valyrian empire and are actively carrying on their legacy(Valyrian dialects for example).
The objectification of Daenerys in S1 and S2 is displayed by sheer dresses, one for example given to her on-screen by Viserys when they were in Pentos(not the south, but the city was founded by the Valyrian freehold).
It’s possible that no undergarment usage is a Targaryen feature that was still kept from old Valyrian times in the family & spread throughout, only later pushed out by structured westerosi styles (see late seasons of GOT). Those structured styles are also used to display the power of female characters in the late seasons, heavily seen on Sansa, Margaery, Daenerys and Cersei.
The appearance of a structured collar on adult Rhaenyra has the same symbolism to me.
Maybe they were trying to evoke an "older" kind of feeling with the costumes? Like how in real life women didn't wear stays until late 1500s/early 16th century and older generations wore kirtles. Could also just be an oversight by the costume team 😅
Thanks for commenting erika.
I had that thought too: a lot of the women's costumes especially look more medieval than Tudor in silhouette
I honestly thought the period they were in didn't have stays. If they're almost 200yrs before the actual GOT then won't that make sense? There was a time women didn't wear stays afterall. Throughout HOTD I noticed how the clothing styles were changing to reflect each time period. Perhaps there will be a time period (probably towards the end of the show) where stays are introduced. Guess we'll just have to keep watching to find out.
@@eklipsnoiredinence But even in medieval time have underpinnings that support the bust. Archaeologers find bra or bra chemise. That look little bit like Regency style brasier.
Structure in historical costumes is key. Even when Margary didn't wear stays, her bodices were stiff and supported her chest well. Princess Rhaenyra occasionally looks like she's wearing hand-me-downs, because the dresses are ill-fitting as if they were made for someone else.
Thanks for commenting Majra. That's a very good point to make that the gowns themselves had structure.
In truth, they may be. Alicent is directly ordered by Otto to start wearing her mother's gowns when visiting the king. It is likely that Rheanyra wears her mother's, Aemma, gowns, too. Especially since she is a teenager and is maturing out of her pre-teen clothes. If there is a huge collection of adults gowns that are no longer of use, they will be repurposed.
@@berlineczka Good observation!
@@berlineczka But even if is mother gown should be fitted by curt tailor to look good on her. Even peasant girl would sit and refit her mother or older sister dress to her need, let go some seams or put some fabric addition if necessary.
I’m an Industrial Designer and know nothing of fashion or costumes but when watching the premiere episode I was wondering why the ladies, especially the two girls, seem to have slightly sloppy draping and silhouettes in their costumes. Thanks for the info
Thank you so much Ross, I really appreciate your comment.
I was actually wondering if the point of Rhaenyra's clothing was to make her look ill-at-ease with her own body. Like it was a character statement to show her unease with her developing body, the lack of a mother's guidance at this critical point in her life, or her insistence on wearing clothes her mother had a hand in designing, even though they no longer fit properly.
Mind you, I don't have HBO so I'm going on set photos and excerpts in reviews. But visually, it seems to show Rhaenyra's lack of comfort with herself or the world around her.
That would be good character development. But I don't really buy it because I have seen it in some of Alicent's costumes as well as Rhaenyra later in the season.
As someone who has worked the Renn Faire circuit I can tell you I have seen more people with proper foundation garments (the workers at the faire not the patrons necessarily). Seeing the lack of foundations on the actors I think is a poor choice hopefully one that can be rectified. I have worn stays and corsets to various events I can tell you that a proper foundation garment is more comfortable than none at all, especially with all the layers of the garment, they support the person and the garment much of the weight of my skirts was better distributed by the stays or the corset. Also you can do plenty in either under garment it just takes time and training like with anything and not tight lacing (seriously not as much of a thing as everyone believes.) It distresses me as someone who has worked in similar garments to see supposed “high born” Ladies without any support underneath the dresses. Either way I hope this improves with time, and glad you pointed this out in the video.
I do think that underpinnings would be helpful in the showing off the gowns, but I also don't think there need to be wide padded garments or wide skirts. We don't see those in Westeros in GoT (with a few exceptions). We see a much narrower silhouette. So, in my mind, I think this silhouette seems like a reasonable predecessor to the GoT one. I do also agree that while there is a Tudor influence on the costumes, there is also a bit of kirtle going on. The boat neck, sleeves, etc. I agree with the other commenter that this could be an explanation of why they're not wearing structured undergarments.
Okay, fair enough. But the costumes will continue to be ill fitting even without wider skirts and padding unless the actors have underpinnings.
Based on the silhouette the production decided on, there's no need for a lot of underpinnings, but there has to be something. At the very least, there needs to be a chemise, a pair of stays and a petticoat. If the dresses fell more empire waistline like the early medieval kirtle was instead of the natural waist like in the show, then the kirtle might be enough, but as it is, it just looks ill- fitting.
@@tatianamelendez490 You're totally right. I thought they were even more poorly fitted in the second episode honestly. Which is a shame because the costumes themselves are beautiful.
@@Theater00jock yeah, the costumes in ep. 2 are much better, but there's still improvement needed and there's no end to my frustration.
Mm I'm not sure how I feel about this. Both House of the Dragon and Game of Thrones are based on books that are inspired by *both* Medieval and Early Modern History. As far as I know, structured shapewear is not really a Medieval thing, and they can pick and choose what eras to emulate for which garments, seeing as it's fantasy and not a historical drama. I've seen historically accurate medival clothing that, in comparison to Early Modern and Modern styles, looks more slouchy and baggy, simply because it's not very structured. I do think it would be interesting for them go without modern undergarments however.
There are also many sexist, patriarchal cultures that never had any sort of restrictive undergarments for women, so I'm not sure they're a necessary symbol, especially since a lot of how we see corsets and stays as restrictive and painful comes mostly from modern films rather than reality.
I made my case. If if you don't agree with it then so be it.
It's incredibly frustrating to go back through E1: the new costume designer has put hennins, butterfly headdresses, sideless surcoats, Elizabethan collars, cotehardies, Byzantine headdresses/French hoods, chaplets and kirtles all in the same time-period. During an interview, the designer said she always goes for "realism" but if that's so, why the lack of underpinnings? Why have your actors wear modern bras beneath gowns specifically designed to achieve medieval silhouettes? One thing I admire about the GoT costume designer is how they established an utterly unique sartorial identity for each region of Westeros and Essos. There may have been nods to Japanese culture in the Lannister armour and Cersei's asymmetric gowns, but you couldn't pause the screen and have a discussion over why Alicent wore a cotehardie (there's an emerald-green one coming up, worn in the throne room) and why Rhaenyra, in the same time-period, wore an Elizabethan ruff. It's taking me out of the episode. The designer thought about the shape they wanted and how the underpinnings would help achieve it - just look at Sansa's "Dark Sansa" dress or her coronation gown. Even the velvet gown Sansa wore in the episode 'Battle of the Bastards', hidden beneath a heavy cloak, shows signs of being tailored to Sophie Turner over stays, because the waist is nipped in and looks firm. There also must have been clever boning in many of Daenerys' outfits in Meereen because of the clever necklines. Every thought went into the details, especially what the audience couldn't see.
Also, I loved that you mentioned the Royal Family. Interesting to note that during public appearances, especially when she goes out on the balcony at Buckingham Palace, she most often wears incredibly vibrant, solid colours. As tiny as she is, and surrounded by so many other people, there is absolutely no doubt where she is standing. Even in wide shots on the TV, even if you're down the Mall, you can see her. And Kate Middleton always looks exceptional because her outfits are particularly well tailored - and she will absolutely have the correct undergarments to wear beneath her outfits.
*Sorry for the length!
Hi mellow, excellent comments and I agree with everything you said. I haven't seen any interviews with the HOTD designer yet.
Even if the actors in GoTs weren't wearing stays, etc, their costumes were often built on a base like Maergery Tyrells wedding gown, Sansa Stark's Gibson girl silhouette or Danys white fur coat and were even stitched into their costumes so that they couldn't go to the bathroom without being cut out of their costumes. Thank you for commenting.
THANK YOU! The fashion periods are all over the place. Especially for historical drama/fantasy show it really takes you out of it. At the very least have some consistency in the costumes like Game of Thrones did, don’t just mix and match several different fashion eras that don’t go together.
I wouldn't expect them to restrict thing to a certain time period when it isn't set in real history, but as someone who knows very little about fashion, perhaps there is a reason some of these fashions couldn't coexist?
@@joeyeardley4002 It's more the fact that these styles have been blatantly lifted from our history, where Westeros is a fantasy realm and should therefore have its own identity.
I agree mellowenglishgal. I love the HOT D / GoT universe but the period style influences were all over the place and it was distracting. It's something that registered as irritating. For a top tier show to be extraordinary all departments costuming, props, music, etc must support one another. I realize this is fantasy but it is important to be at least in the same decade. GoT may have fallen off with their storyline and pacing but their costuming paid attention to detail and were point.
The lack of undergarments makes the beautiful costumes look so much cheaper! I really hope this isn’t part of the “we won’t wear stays or corsets because corsets bad and misogynistic” thing. I could understand if the Targaryens didn’t wear stiff undergarments to be able to ride their dragons more easily but at least Alicent Hightower should be dressed properly.
Hi Hannah, yes, and I am speaking to the court gowns. I totally understand if they want to have something more relaxed for dragon riding.
It is such a pet peeve of mine when people summarizing historical dress jump directly from Queen Elizabeth to Marie Antoinette. There's a whole very beautiful 17th century in the middle.
Check out my complete House of the Dragon playlist here: bit.ly/3zHVHBH
I already feel Michele Clapton's absence. So much of the fashions of the show was tied to her strong identity as a designer. Just look at her personal jewellery designs to see how much of herself she put into the costumes, and how her vision shaped the show visually. I miss it in HotD.
Yeah, I feel it too. I can understand why she wanted to move on and try something new.
I always enjoy your videos. Keep up the good job.
Thanks so much gray!
I think they're going for something a little more medieval/early Renaissance/Tudor and tbh it feels like a mismatched mess of different styles especially with the random ruffs thrown in on top of that, and technically I could see that as an argument against stays because they weren't really around until the late 1500s but I agree that they would have still greatly benefitted the costumes, and since its fantasy they could totally have used them on medieval inspired costumes anyway. I think that at the very least there should have been some structure built into the gowns themselves if they weren't going to corset the actors.
I thought of you last Sunday, looking at Rhaenyra’s awful pale gold dress. The pattern was mis-measured or Milly gained some bust, I don’t know, but yikes. The costume department needs Sansa Stark to show them how it’s done.
Hi Leslie, yes, that was the one that was the most egregious.
Yup, couldn't stop thinking about it too. I got a feeling they wanted to go for a medieval-ish look without stays, but (as far as I know) medieval dresses could be laced up tightly, so that the dress itself would give you support, meanwhile here it all just looks ill-fitted.
Okay let’s forget that it’s high fantasy and therefore doesn’t have to be historically accurate. The inspiration for the costumes was medieval, and women did not wear stays but simply kirtles in that time period.
I remember hearing the creators talk about how house of the dragon is set in the golden age of the seven kingdoms, but the costumes don't reflect it one bit. I don't think they need corsets, but they do need structure and careful tailoring. Even if they want to go for a loose style, there are ways of making it more flattering and intentional.
Thanks for commenting Xaxier!
So far I feel like the costumes are being underutilized as a means of characterization. In the early seasons of Game of Thrones cinematic spectacle was not as abundant but the costumes were more memorable and more narratively deliberate in their design and use.
Hey Martin, thanks for your comment.
OH!!! That is what has been bothering me so much about the ladies' clothes in HOTD! I've been really enjoying the show but the court dresses have just not been sitting right with me and I couldn't figure it out. It was the undergarments! Thank you Costume Co!
I do love Rhaenyra's dragon riding and hunting outfits though. You are correct it would've made more sense to change in three years though!
Thanks so much Molly!
🌝 I’ve been waiting for this!
Thanks Stephanie.
The dresses are beautiful but they would have looked better with stays or something. It would have made the dresses seem more smooth. Like whenever I see the dresses look droopy I’m like “that doesn’t look very good”. I didn’t watch game of thrones when it was but I was always attracted to the hair and costumes. And so when this show was announced I was very excited to see more of both. But the wrinkles are distracting
Thanks so much Alex. Yes, the costumes are very beautiful, gorgeous fabrics and trims and embroideries. So it makes me sad that they didn't go that extra mile to make sure it wasn't so ill fitting.
I am so very late to this video. It bothers me week after week that no one is wearing shifts. Even in a fantasy setting, laundry still was a pain in the butt and no one was washing all those outfits weekly. Shifts people!
It's never too late to talk about costumes.
I don’t think they have the costume budget that GOT had. The production budget was doubled but that doesn’t mean it was increased for the costume dept. Puckering, bad fabric choices. Someone’s not paying attn to the finishing. Foundation garments - I’ll forgive because they are dragon riders and corsets and stays wouldn’t be practical. None of the ladies look like they’re interested in fashion anyway but I do like the white dress Rhaenyra wears during the council meeting.
Hi Linda! Thanks for commenting. 😀
But you can use corded corsets made from linen and stiffen by lines of cords. Corded corset are soft but still make lines smoother.
Always love your insights
Thanks my girl. Hey Alicia, will you be watching LOTRs?
@@Costume_CO Absolutely will be.
Okay, I will chat with you about it.
Such a cool video, and lot of good viewpoints!
I agree with all the comments about corsets and stays being actually comfortable and also most likely like a light armor for battle. But mostly, o agree with you that the costumes look ill fitted, especially when the characters are in a situation of public display.
Thanks Maxene for your comments.
The gold dress... that's a tshirt baby
It kind of is, isn't it?
I do love commercially available medieval garb like the one you showed from arm street, but I agree it takes you out of the suspension of disbelief. I keep thinking, haven’t I seen that costume online before?
Hi Jen, no insult meant to Arm Street. I am just trying to show the difference between ready to wear commercially available clothing vs the custom designed and made costumes in HOTD.
@@Costume_CO oh, I agree completely.
I've noticed that costumes with proper undergarments just look better than ones without them
I think they just didn't want to bother with undergarments, thought they could be skipped and it will be fine. But it's not and makes the costumes look worse. Even if they were absolutely set on going with bras, there were better options like you said.
They either also overstate how much inspiration was taken from Elizabethan fashion or it's just intended as more surface level. The silhouettes look more vaguely medieval to me (like BBC Merlin). Which is totally fine I don't think they should be beholden to any time period or historical accuracy as this is a fantasy show but the costumes still have to look good.
It's a shame because I think most of them are well designed (on a concept level) and beautiful. Especially Alcient's gowns. Since the actress is tall & lean and seems to need less bust support, the only bras approach is the least apparent with her costumes but proper undergarments would make them much more showstopping.
What I do like though that in HotD there's less heavy handed color coding for characters and more different looking gowns for the same person. This bothered me about GoT, like Margaery's dresses were pretty but they looked way too similar and many people thought she has only one. Sansa was also wearing brown/mauve dresses with the same cut in season 3, even though in s1-s2 both her and Cersei had more variety in color. Here, they're clearly going for green with Alicent, but not the same shade and a variety of designs and details. Rhaenyra also wears her house colors but others as well, her gold dress and the white one from ep 2 are clearly distinguisable. Reusing dresses is fine but it should seem like they have a sizeable wardrobe to choose from as noble ladies and imo they accomplised this.
Thanks for commenting Viola.
Loved the video! And if someone who has an interest in historical fashion and costumes it’s disconcerting that they don’t or didn’t make the effort to really make sure the costumes looked right in a historical context. And yes it is fantasy but so was Game of Thrones and they had corsets 🤷🏾♀️ so what’s the problem? Also can we talk about how all over the place the costume eras they’re taking inspiration from are, especially the headdresses.
Hi Happy Cake, I'm hoping after I have seen a few more epis I will have a few more insights on the design. Hope you can pop into our livestream on Tuesday night.
Great video as always! I miss the extreme details of Carragher.
Thank you so much Devanrealness
Sadly today a lot of female actors refuse to wear corsets or other undergarnments, because they do not see them as an important part of the whole outfit, but as a "torture device" (like Emma Watson in Beauty and the Beast). I wish people would educate themselves more about historical dress and not banish corsets and stays for some fake-feminist reasons. Or they could just reinforce the dress itself to get to the desired shape. I hope this is not a early sign of "We don't need to try as hard for this show, because people will watch it anyways."
Thank you so much DarkWolf. I did consider that this might have been an actor choice. In this case it's important for the costume designer to explain to the cast the importance of the underpinning and in many ways (like the wigs) how it can inform the characters.
I didn't mention this in the video (because it was after I wrote the script) that Eve Best is slouching in that pretty blue dress and it is really unflattering on her. She probably saw it and was horrified.
The Beauty and the Beast remake single-handedly plummeted my respect in Emma Watson. I respect how earnest and devoted she is to the pursuit of equality, but she showed so much ignorance in that movie in terms of women's historical fashion, I wanted to scream. Easily the movie I hate the most.
@@tatianamelendez490 I think what hurt even more was that all the other female characters and male characters where dresses correctly. That made her look out of place even more. Sadly this only makes the mens costumes look even better than the womens ones, making them look frumpy and of lesser quality. Not really empowering in my opinion.
@@darkwolf453 I cannot look at that movie unless it's a review or reaction, cause it just makes me so freaking angry.
The ideia that corsets are torture devices needs to go. Its totally false.
I just finished watching the second episode and I see what you’re saying about the lack of foundational garments. I mean, I noticed it before but, having watched your video, now I can’t un-see it. The gowns are nice but the women do look a little slumpy, especially in front.
Alicent is the only one who doesn’t look that way, interestingly enough. Maybe it’s because she always sits ram-rod straight and never relaxes her posture.
Hi Kimberly, what did you think of the episode? Yes, she does answer also Millie Alcock is much bustier so it's more obvious.
Even the burrito dress looks like a dress not a costume
I used to hate the burrito but I have come to admire more now.
@@Costume_CO i think it could have worked but they just didn't go that last stretch, more shaping less box, more fitting with the style of the character, it was too strong for a more gentle and subtle character so conscious of fashion and very carefull to always be at the top of the fashion of the region or environment she's in, I never hated it just was sad for the lost potential.
Thank you!
You're welcome. What did you think?
@@Costume_CO I have very little ‘technical’ knowledge of how garments work and I thought you explained in a way someone like me can understand. It explains why I look at some costumes and think they aren’t sitting right, or don’t seem to fit properly. Just goes to show that good costuming includes what’s under the costume as well!
Thanks so much Jack, I was trying to explain it so that if you looked at the Clothing and thought it looked slightly off you would know what's going on. I really appreciate you commenting and I hope you enjoy tonight's show.
Great video! What I don't undestand - there have been plenty of times and cultures when stiff undergarments simply weren't invented yet or not in fashion. You wouldn't call these "ill fitting", as that's just how those kinds of dresses were supposed to look at the time. Isn't the perceived "correct" look also just based on our own preconceptions and cultural history? And isn't it entirely possible that in this fictional culture this look is just what the popular style of the time called for? It's fantasy after all, even if it's loosely based on Tudor fashion
Sorry, I just can't...
I have a problem with the costumes of this show and you exactly made the point ! I like your point of view on the subject.
Thanks Melanie. 😊
Great video! Never thought about the similarities between Marjorie tyrell's burrito dress and Bjork 's Bell dress! Thats Amazing! 7'15"
Thanks Jacapo, yes, Costume Designer Michele Clapton was inspired by Alexander McQueen's bell dress design for Bjork.
@@Costume_CO wow didnt know that! Thats actually so interesting! Thanks for your Channel, i Just discovered It! Subscribed! Keep going like this
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it.
I thought the costumes were off.. they looked slightly more.. modern(?) And costumey than the original series.. took me out of the show tbh
Thanks for commenting samsansam
Yes!! I thought it needed better foundation for the ladies
Thanks Avery!
It certainly is odd that such important things could be overlooked in a production with such a huge budget
Thanks Alys!
I am not a costumer, but the whole time watching the show I was thinking the costumes were just a bit off.
Hey thanks Raoul.
Oh Thank God you did this review! The costumes in this production are distracting.
Thanks Cindy!
I think is more byzantine fashion
Designer said fealty gown is Moroccan, other costumes lean into 13th and 14th century.
So, the show is amazing. The story telling, the directing, the acting, the sets and the dragon animation is unreal. The costumes and the wigs though... Let's just say they are distracting with how bad they are 😂. Just one notch above a Halloween costume.
Hi Shelly, I have had some struggles with this. I really want to like them. Looking ahead to Sundays Episode it looks like the costumes will get back on track.
I’ve been pretty underwhelmed by the costumes for HotD… though second viewing on a newer TV did help me see the fabrics are very ornate
Thanks for commenting Lorelei
Well done and well fitted are key.
Thanks for commenting Endoril
Excellent explanation. I wish they had someone like you in consulting for costume design. It's hard to believe that they don't!
Ah, thank you so much OaktownGirl!
Really cool video, while i agree with most things, I don't know if dramatization of the costumes would be a good thing. It becomes a bit distracting and maybe even comical seeing these characters having serious moments in crazy silhouettes...despite its accuracy.
Thanks for commenting BINI.
Having the right undergarments us also nicer for the actors and looks better on the screen.
Thanks Cynthia.
The thing that got me was the "bust stitching" (not sure what it is called) on Rhaenyra's gold dress (most obvious). Did they even have that in Ren times? When did that actually start? Thanks for this insight. I did notice some weird fittings and looks.
Thanks so much for commenting. Let me have a look.
@@Costume_CO Thanks! Just seemed out of time for me. Caught my eye multiple times so....
I am excited for the story and the men´s costumes. Less so for the women´s costumes sadly. The gorgeous jewelry and Carragher´s divine embroidery can´t rescue what is wrong with the basics sadly. No underpinnings and sadly no second or final fittings or proper handling like with an iron as it seems. I really hope they improve either later in the season or in the second season.
Thank you so much for your honesty and putting this out there and thank you also Justin.
Thanks so much Aysun, I always appreciate your insight and comments.
Well… I can’t not see it now;
In episode 1, when Rhaenyra sits down to speak to her mother, I was _stunned_ by how ill fitting the bodice of her dress looked…
I’m learning how to make -my- mine own historical/costume clothing, and your takes and thoughts on costumes has been interesting and helpful.
I understand what you mean by how it’s surprising they aren’t using foundation garments because (regardless of the _actual_ history behind bodies and corsets [that they weren’t, irl, used as a way to literally restrict women, and were in fact, quite comfortable due to them being custom fitted]) *on film* they’ve been historically used to depict patriarchal restrictions.
As you’ve pointed out: Sansa changes her wardrobe as her life becomes more repressed and restricting and lacing corsets has almost always been used *on screen* to represent that.
A tight lacing scene or two would have made absolute narrative sense in this show.
And the costumes would look 10x better.
Off the top of your head, any other examples of shows or movies where the lack of foundation undergarments is so obvious?
Hi Lorelei, excellent comment. Let me think on some examples...
I'm studying costume design and historical garments and I was honestly disappointed in the costume design. It was really... Uneven? Some of the garments were gorgeous and others (most of them) seemed "plasticy". Lots of fake leather and fibres that were clearly not of natural quality. The hooker once had a dress i swear I've seen at H&M and like you pointed out: a HUGE problem with I'll fitting gowns and weird choices of undergarments. It comes off as cheap and sloppy in my opinion. (Unbelievably bad in fact if you think about the budget they had)
Hi Hallåja, thank you so much for commenting. I really appreciate it. Where are you studying design?
@@Costume_CO at Tillskararakademin in Gothenburg, Sweden :)
I couldn't care less about GoT but I do enjoy costumes, especially historical and fantasy ones which means I've seen every single video about GoT you've made. Many multiple times. I love the thought process and incredible amount of talent behind these beautiful gowns and it's so interesting to learn about the historical influences and fashion inspiration. I feel like I've learned a lot from you (also your videos are just so damn enjoyable).
I've only seen the trailer for hotd and have zero intention of watching it but I did notice the ill-fitting costumes and was kinda disappointed. I haven't manage to watch all your videos about this series yet but I'm excited to hear your thoughts ^^
I think there is an argument for the targaryen women not using all those pieces in the fact that they were also warriors and dragon riders... The garments could make the job uncomfortable. But it is also a moot point cause it is not only the targaryen women that had ill fitted clothes...
These ladies ride dragons madam
Perhaps they were looking to emulate an older style of dress, but I dont know what women wore underneath their gowns except an easy-to-clean dress. Weren't there bras of a sort even back then? Now I have to delve into this topic.. to the google machine!
Hey Liquessen, there have found a bra in grave finds. I'm not sure what date it was but I think it was pretty old.
I saw how ill fighting all the women's costumes were and I was wondering if they all were wearing something like a sports bra's because that's how all of women looked. At least the chest and there were soooo many wrinkles. Nice video!
Thanks Faithwerks.
If it is sport bra use dresses should not look as bad as some dresses look. I think problem is that character do not have under layer, just over dress. Also some materials could be thinner and to flimsy and not have enough body to look good.
Totally agree with your point. As we were introduced to the royal family, they should've looked grand and larger than life especially Rhaenyra since she's the crown Princess. I imagined that the Targaryen women would wear Tudor style gowns but I was disappointed
Ok, that’s fair criticism. Maybe the costumes will become more elaborate as the show goes on. I took the less structured costumes as being historically older. They hadn’t developed the costumes of the original series yet, but I’m a casual viewer. They don’t bother me because the women seem freer and more powerful in HOTD than GOT. So the dress freer? Great video!!! Thank you.
Thanks Petra! My feelings for the show have evolved as the show has unfolded. I'm working on a video. It will likely be out on Sunday. Cheers, Heidi.
The costumes need work but the WIGS are perfect.
If GOT is heavily based on the Wars of the Roses in 15th century England. HOTD would be the 13ths century equivalent, well before stays and structured support garments, wealth would be shown in colour, cut and excessive use of expensive fabric rather than OTT structures and shaped garments. The costume designers my have take some inspiration for the tudors but that's clearly not the only inspiration.
They are creating fantasy garments so they don't need to follow any historical rules.
a pair of bodies or stays or even corsets are simply underwear, and also comes from a time when you used your clothing to make shapes, instead of now wear often people try to force their bodies into shapes. But yeah, where are the shifts? Those were easy to clean and and kept your undergarments and clothes clean, as those would be much harder to launder. bras are simply just next gen corsets which were next gen stays which were next gen pair of bodies, which weren't even often a separate garment, but part of the gown itself, much like men have often used padding and lots of fabric to make themselves look bigger, the garment is doing the work.
it's like in bridgerton where they keep forcing those poor actresses in full corsets (and tight laced because heaven forbid you actually make clothes to fit your actress) for some unknown reason when short stays were most often worn, as the look was supposed to be column like and except for the bust area, you didn't need support as with the empire waist you skirt should start flowing from the bustline
Tbh the fact that the “layers” are sewn together it makes the clothes look a bit like halloween costumes. You can see the the different patterns and textures are not there because of different layer but instead all sewn together as one piece. So disappointing
Thanks for commenting Ellie.
Tbh HOTD's costumes are far more better than GoT's. Michelle Clapton is overrated. She only gives intricate and good costumes to her favourite characters. I don't see any bias here in HOTD, everyone got equally great costumes. Even watching GoT at it's peak, I really didn't find the costumes that fascinating. Even though the designer put a lot of effort tying in the characters persona in their costumes. It feels a bit wrong, their interpretation of the characters are really shitty, I'm not shocked because D&D did most of it. But I also criticize Clapton for being biased towards certain characters giving them intricate designs and multiple wardrobe changes. The most horrible designs that I've seen was Arya's storyline in braavos, it was her chance to be shown in a feminine light just like other female characters. It's not because as a viewer, I wanted her to look feminine just for the sake of it. Her storyline in braavos is that she found her way into accepting her own beauty and grew into her features. It really resonated with me while reading the books because I felt what she felt. Being the ugly duckling transforming into a pretty swan. I was so excited seeing braavos because the place itself was full of color and richness, but what we got are shitty bun hairstyles and mud brown net designs for Arya and the braavosi. Don't even get me started with her blocky winter ell costume in season 7 and 8. See how Rhaenyra in HOTD was a bit of a tomboy but she retained her feminine figure in her costumes even though it was more masculine than alicent's dresses. It shows how complex Rhaenyra is. I wish they also did that with Arya.
the red dress was so disappointing. it's an occasion to display your family's full wealth and power and you have this limp, sad lace collar and the bodice of the dress felt so *blank*. i know there will always be dissatisfaction when comparing a new show to a well-loved predecessor but it really felt like a downgrade for no reason.
Hi synth, thank you so much for commenting.
I absolutly agree specially after episode 2.
Rhaenys and Rhaenyra dresses seem lackluster and that's because of the shape.
Hi Vanessa, so nice to see you here. 😊
I don`t mind the costumes, I just think of it as the fashion of the time. For all we know the current trend in Westeros might be to not wear undergarments (or at least appear not to wear it) to show that your breasts are young and firm and don´t need the support. The Targaryens might have fertility issues due to inbreeding so showing off youth and fertility could be highest fashion. Or they are going though a burn the bra phase. Or those undergarments just aren´t invented yet. Taking inspiration from history for a fantasy series doesn´t mean you need to recreate it perfectly.
The shift under the stays wouldn’t be sexy enough for GOT
Very true.
True ren fair folks have the proper under garments , people in glittery shiny Halloween queen costumes stick out like broken sore thumbs.
Thanks for commenting Taylor!
Actually, I would disagree on clothing choice going that direction pre dance. The ruling family are dragon riders. Look at what Vysinea and Rhaenarys are dipictted as wearing when they helped Aegon conquer the 6 kingdom's? They are almost in pants under taylerd,flowing tops with long fitted sleeves. You wouldn't be able to wear stays and starched collars on dragon back and you would want all the lord's of the realm to always keep in mind,that the dragons were never far off,and you wouldn't trip over your skirts or accidentally get lit up by a stray dragon burp. I would think that up until after the dance that the Targaryens dressed in, what to us, would resemble things like Daeni wore in GOT....or Grecian silk type garments. The lords and lady's would then imitate them. But AFTER the dragons? The only thing keeping the status quo was as you mentioned... the patriarchy. That's when maybe...you stop calling attention to the, "closer to gods then men," shtick and you try placating all the other men who now had a bit more equal footing. Conformity always lulls the masses. That's when stays and exaggerated figures would make sense. But I could be wrong. 😀
The fabric of rhaenyra's tourney dress was super distracting. It looked like spandex with a laser printed pattern. Even just going with a velvet overlay for the pattern would've made it look 10x better
Hi Dianna, I can't track down that fabric but I think it's just printed silk and they have added some delicate details around the collar and the cuff.
One think I loved about Claptons costumes is that she built up layers. I agree I think that would have been helpful. Thanks for commenting.
I wish they'd just bring back Michele Clapton. This other designer isn't right for this show. One of the reasons GOT was so enjoyable is the costumes. They were so unique and well executed that it gave the entire plot a sense of magical realism that made watchers want to emulate what their favorite characters wore. Clapton and Carragher seemed to understand each other's choices and worked exceedingly well together. This new designer isn't half as impressive with her decisions. I have trouble getting into HOTD because the costumes take me right out of the scenes. The reason I'm still watching is because the actors do such a good job of bringing all their characters to life. I would've stopped after the very first episode otherwise. Most of the ladies' costumes appear cheap and sloppy like what you'd find on your local store shelf at Halloween. It saddens me since GOT put such effort into their costumes. The only other good things about HOTD are all the dragons themselves. Poor Syrax didn't want to go in the dragon pit and I do not blame her. Let the dragon come and go as it pleases as long as it doesn't damage property or harm people.
Hi Aurora, thank you so much for your great comment. I watched the first episode twice and I wasn't terribly distracted by the costumes because as you mention the cast are really good.
But alot of high resolution images are getting released and I can see the costumes in greater detail. I am still trying to be hopeful.
I agree with you completely. It’s so infuriating to watch because the men are phenomenally well-dressed. I read an interview with the new designer and it’s very obvious she was more excited about the men’s costumes and was bored with designing dresses for the ladies. It shows. The men look amazing while the ladies are criminally neglected wardrobe-wise. I can count the individual outfits that stood out - Rhaenyra’s investiture outfit (because of the cape’s embroidery and the headdress!), Alicent’s pale blue tourney gown and her teal ‘seduction’ gown, Rhaenyra’s hunting outfit, Rhaenys’ armour and Alicent’s first green dress. The other gowns worn by major characters are sad - thoughtless in design, poorly fitted and using cheap-looking fabrics that stick out like a sore thumb! We definitely need Michele Clapton back.
You stated there were HOTD spoilers for the show only. Yet before two minutes have elapsed you give away details relating to the future plot of the show, based on the book. This is why I'm staying away from alll HOTD discussions, people cannot stop themselves from spoiling it.
What book spoilers?
Sorry Dani, I can't think of a book spoiler that I did. 😞
Ok so just re watched and I edited this video and there are No spoilers for the books in the first two minutes or the whole video also as a further note The book Fire and blood gives us a sequence of events (not story ) these events are actually revealed in the television series game of thrones . Events are not story for example you know the titanic sinks but u didn’t know about jack and rose .
Hey, the absence of corsets may be because they filmed in the middle of the pandemic , helping the actors not get short of breath. Thats my take on it
Thank bobu. :)
I know its just the first episode, but so far i have seen much much more oppulence and decadence in Joffrey’s looks, than in anything this sad Targaryen court has to offer.
I mean i get that even in GoT, the colors of the Sigils were usually reprised in the costumes of the members of one’s House.
But why oh why use that black so much ? Ok the sigil of the targaryen is mostly black, but black evokes more the austerity of the spanish court at some point, rather than oppulence and decadence. I mean they could have gone full reds instead, a color traditionnaly associated with royalty.
The shot of the court all draped in black costumes evokes more a funeral than a dynasty at the highest of its power
To be fair there is this red dress of Rhaenyra, but lets be honest, the mixture between the dress and this ruff isn’t that pretty, it looks more like a cheap Snow White costume 😅
Awesome comments. Joffrey had my favourite men's costumes in GOT and he greatly admired the targs. HOTD does prefer to keep the house colours despite the fact that the book had them dressed in a variety of colours.
@@Costume_CO oh i can imagine ! I rewatched several times your breakdown of Joffrey’s costumes ! The character was aweful but his outfits clearly weren’t ! 😁
This was bothering me SO MUCH
Thanks Femmy.
Just like I did watch Game of Thrones with interest, this new show has none for me. I don't care about Targaryen history. That said, the costumes of House of the Dragons look cheap and need Michelle Clapton's tasteful hand. Shame...
Hi Mary, so nice to see you. Thanks for commenting as always.
the costumes are definitely a disappointment , this show is decent but the average dialogue and less than average costumes definitely diminish my enjoyment
Hi micow, I have only seen the first epi so far. Have you seen ahead or are you basing this on Episode 1?
@@Costume_CO I'm basing this on episodes 1 and 2
Thank you I'm watching it tonight. 😀