The Divine Twins (Indo-European Religion and mythology)
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- From Hengest and Horsa of the Germanic myths, to Nakula and Sahadeva of the Rig Veda, the Divine Twins appear throughout Indo-Europeans history. Here we look at who the twins really were and what they represented, and why one would occasionally disappear from mythology.
I referenced to Ward's well known paper on the Divine Twins as part of this, although this was via the copy of my copy of "Myth and Law among the Indo-Europeans" and so I don't have a direct reference to just the paper.
*When I talk about the invasion of Hengest and Horsa, I'm not exactly telling the whole truth, but I didn't want to give any spoilers away that are in a future video
Artwork: Mamontova (Fiverr)
References
Gartrell, Amber. 2021. The Cult of Castor and Pollux in Ancient Rome. Cambridge University Press.
Puhvel, J. 1970. Myth and Law among the Indo-Europeans. University of California Press.
Stzel, H. 1953. Die Sagen des Ahrtals. Bonn.
"Pāndavasagan och Mahäbhäratas mytiska förutsättningar," ROB 6:27-39 (1947).
Chapters
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0:00 Introduction
1:08 Wikander, Dumézil and the Divine Twins
2:19 Dumézil's tripartite link to the Divine Twins
4:36 The Warrior and the Commoner
6:36 Different fathers
8:47 The Dioscuri, war and fertility
9:52 Castor and Pollux
12:16 The role of the horse
14:10 Hengest and Horsa, and Crecganford
17:32 Indo-European history is a sum of its parts
Are there any particular Indo-European gods you want to hear more about?
Trickster gods wouls be very interesting to me... but I´m happy with anything you release, your videos are always top notch, Thank you very much for all your efforts, yours is one of the most engaging channels in yuotube
Indo aryan gods or north india ,war traditions ,preparing for.battle.,culture
@@fernandosanz4422 Thank you for your suggestion, it is noted. And for your support in watching and commenting. It is appreciated :)
@@ajithsidhu7183 I will touch on some of this in my next video :)
@@Crecganford thanks
It's pretty easy to imagine why twins would be seen as important, or even divine. Humans normally only have one child at a time, and in pre-modern times, most of those wouldn't survive to adulthood. To have two at once, and to have them both survive to adulthood? That alone seems like a miracle.
Exactly, that is my thinking too. Thanks for watching :)
You can add that that's why we had such a less population even back then (and I kinda disagree with you bcuz some people had more than one children in pre-modern times also - at least 2).
I am a Korean who is interested in the religion and language of Proto-Indo Europeans. When I look at your CZcams channel, I know a story that I didn't know at all because it's never been translated into Korean, and I get a new perception of what I already knew but didn't understand deeply.
On the one hand, I always feel deeply sorry that much of the language, religion, and history of my ancestors before the 15th century, especially before the 7th century, has been forgotten. The languages and literature recorded in Latin, ancient Greek, Sanskrit etc. in India and Europe make me envious.
I have to rely on subtitles because my English is not good enough to understand your words, but whenever you post a new video, I make sure to watch it.
Thank you Yau, I do try to ensure all my videos now have subtitles, and so I hope that helps :)
Have u two studied Pangu as well as FuXi & NuWa (Divine twins) of Far East Mythology? IndoEuro ;)
@@tristate0mind I mention the connection in my comparative mythology video, albeit briefly :)
@@Crecganford Thats a great video. It would be really amazing to hear a deep dive into Chinese Mythology & it's IndoEuro correlation. As well as Far Eastern in general. I find more connections linguistically than not. Written & phonetic. See Yau, # We Waz All Kin
Yau, I suggest you to look up to Rouran Khaganate. They are like a bridge between Europe and Asia.
This puts me in mind of the Hero Twins in the traditional stories of the Dine’ - the Navaho people. So many similarities.
Thank you for these very informative videos!
And thank you for watching.
The Hero Twins are also featured in the traditions of some southeastern tribes too.
It's found in cultures all over Central and North America. In the Iroquois legend, they're called Sapling (life, creation, nurture) and Flint (death, destruction, fighting).
I just found your channel a few days ago, searching for something on The Wild Hunt. I absolutely love your content. I enjoy the academic explanations and how you tell stories to tie them to the academics. Thanks for all your research and for sharing your knowledge with others.
And thank you for watching and letting me know. If you have any questions please ask away!
don't forget about the centeral american wonder twina also, fascinating stuff !thanks for the video! loved it!
When you talk about the Two Horses, one is associated with the warrior and the other with a "commoner", as if portraying a hierarchy. But it may be more related with the FUNCTION of the horse: one for war and the other for peaceful work (not pasive), one for "savages" and one for "civilizated" people. This also implies the TIME of the association of the horse with that culture: one with the nomadic invader tribes and the other with the agricultural settler ones.
So this kind of "Twinification" (!) of mythological beings may represent that association between two stages of that particular Culture.
The Aztecs in Old Mexico had that division explicitly marked:
the barbaric "Chichimeca" (this word literally meanning "savage") and the civilized "Tolteca" (this word literally meanning "artist").
The Main Temple of the Aztec capital was simultaneosly dedicated to two Gods, side by side: the God of War (Huitzilopochtli, the chichimeca one) and the God of Rain (Tlaloc, the tolteca one) as they need each other to make the Empire grow: one for conquest and one for wealth production, but they are not twins just The Allied Ones.
By the way, I have two sons:
one is a savage and the other is an artist ... and they are TWINS.
That's an interesting take on it, although why would the civilized "horse" disappear from myth, that makes less sense? Although I will have a think about this. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
this view could also tie in with the "builders
aiders, hill folk/valley folk" anthropology concept
At the beginning, a lot of what was said went over my head. However, the more I listened, I couldn't help think about the Biblical Genius twins, Esau and Jacob. Esau was the huntsman, warrior. Jacob was shepard.
I read that in Japan there was a men named Ryomen Sukuna. He appeared as a specter at Hida Province in Japan in 377 after christ. He had two faces, like Janus one on the front and the other on the back of the head, as well as two pairs of appendages without ankles. He was a protector for the land and the people, but he was banished by imperial forces. Some say it was not a specter demon but two brothers from the royal family that descended from Hida lands. Nihonshoki refers to him as to a single character, but if you think about it, it also may refer to a military conflicts between new government and native tribes of ancient Japan.
So the twins had the same function as the mother goddesses ištar, innana, Durga, Freya , išhara and so one. The were also associated with war and fertility but we can also see associations in the story of inanna and ištar with their polar sides and destructions it would be a danger to give them more power than the highest male God. Could you tell me if the divine twins were older that the beginning of the mother goddess archetype which was also associated with fertility and war. And just had the thought the more passive twin got more back in background, but with Jesus this archetype which is associated with fertility (also with the innana dumuzzi or the ištar tammuz myth or other older mythologies) became more relevant and he was also the son of a "god" and associated with a non warrior class
@@maat.isisra it cannot possibly be older than Ishtar cult simply because its rooted in Sumerian mythology which is by now the oldest one out there. All the world religions are coming from Sumerian and Egypt religions so does Japanese one. I don't think the male or female gods matter because in the core of all gods is the duality and gods by nature nor female neither male. Ishtar comes from fertility cults (like Saturn-Satan ones) and really are connected with grains and childbirth more, than war. She has Inari as an analog in japanese culture.
Jesus literally means Ye Suis (Is Zeus) and is the reference to younger Zeus before his sacrificial death and upcoming to gods realm, becoming holy thunder god, more on that in Odin cults. Look for Jupiter vs Saturn and patriarchal (war, travel and expansion) vs matriarchal (restore, farming, childbirth and culture) human stages of development.
They all are divine in nature and dual, because they all comes to yin yang concept of magic. Every element of the star has it's "good" and "bad" sides which are essentially just two sides of the coin.
@@fg4hg594 "All the world religions are coming from Sumerian and Egypt religions so does Japanese one."
Just because the Sumerians and Egyptians were among the first to record their religions, does not mean that they are the source of all the others. If they were capable of developing religion from the ground up, then it stands to reason that other cultures were also able to.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every culture in the world was completely isolated. There has been a lot of sharing, both vertically and horizontally. But that does not mean that all cultures must be descended from the first couple.
And Jesus was actually called Yeshua, which was a common enough name among Jews at the time. (This is also where the name Joshua comes from.) That name was then Latinised to Jesus when writing the official Bibles.
Another fascinating episode. Thanks, John!
Enjoyed rewatching this one Jon.
The way you come across makes the videos so interesting.you are obviously so enthusiastic about your chosen field of expertise.much respect my friend.
Thanks Hengist
This is an awesome channel, thank you for making this information available for the people who have been having trouble finding it.
Thank you for watching and your kind words. They are appreciated.
Found this channel out of chance researching about pre-PIE mythology and i am so glad i did give it a chance! I have since subscribed and watched a lot of your vids! Thanks for the great work! Really helpful content :)
Thank you so much for watching and your support!
This video is gold! ✨✨✨. Thank you so much. You’re work is changing the world. Bless you. 🌹
I Have A Twin Brother And Our Bond Is So Sure And Strong There Could No Doubt That God Ordained It. A True Gift/Blessing. So When I Came Across This Video I Immediately Jumped At The Chance To Watch It!! Thank You For Sharing
Amazing video. You are extremely pedagogical and also pleasant to listen to. Subscribed and will watch more 👍
Since I discovered, in reading Joseph Campbell, the many connections in myths that may drawn between cultures, I've been hooked.
Never thought it was possible to leap so far back.
It is an incredibly fascinating subject, hence why I teach it :)
Hello from Greece! Thank you very much for your interesting and educative videos. I found your channel a few days ago and I've enjoyed very much your lectures. Thank you for giving us food for thought.
But in the narrative about Divine Twins, I must indicate a mistake. In the case of Dioskouroi, according to greek mythology, Polydeukes is fathered by Zeus and Castor from Tyndareos (the full myth is that Leda gave birth to quadruplets: Polydeukes and Helen of Troy by Zeus and Castor and Clytaimnestra by Tyndareos). I am not familiar with the details of the Castor & Pollux woship in Rome, but Polydeukes isn't the "passive twin".
In my opinion, we have to consider that in Neolithic and Bronze Age societies and the Germanic tribes societies that Tacitus describes etc., there isn't and can't be a dinstictive class of warriors. These societies can't afford to feed a stratum that is occupied only with war. Until the late Roman Imperial Army, the freemen are the warriors (soldier and generals alike). Par examble in Homeric Poems, Odysseus meets his comrades while he's plowing his fields and Achilles tends his father's pastures in Fthia. Even in Classical Greece there weren't warriors. The freemen were taking up arms, when the situation demaded it. I'm afraid that Dumezil's scheme corresponds to later feudal societies.
So, I think the Divine Twins in such societies symbolise not "active and pasive twins", but the two intertwined faces of reality: the freemen can rise to heros and must rise if is needed. Perhaps that is why the Romans preferred the name Castor...
Thanks again for your good work!
Another fantastic video. Thank you Jon.
Thank you for watching, and for leaving a comment which all helps the video :)
oh my king yama, i have to watch so many videos looks like i'll binge watch the night away haha,
and can you make a video about the mitanni whom Hittites and their original trojan war.
Thank you for watching these, and I do plan to produce a video on the Trojan War, but it may be some months away.
@@Crecganford it's been a pleasure buddy and don't worry I can wait but I would love to know learn about Celtic mythos got any books or articles I can dive into while then X'D
I read an article the other day about the 7 sisters myths, and it made me think of your video about the great hunt.
Apparently there is a paper in the works that will argue for a nearly 100,000 year age for the 7 sisters myths. It's worth looking at if it isn't already on your radar.
I have seen various articles suggesting this, and can understand why this is said, but I haven't seen any research that corresponds with the level of evidence that formed the Cosmic Hunt myth. I will do a video on this in the future and will ensure I'm up to date on research before I do so. Thank you
@@Crecganford sure thing. I appreciate your effort to follow good research. Honestly, that's one reason I mentioned it. I'm not really qualified to evaluate any papers published on the subject, but I found the idea fascinating. If you deem it worthy of a video, then awesome. If not, then just as well. Either way, keep doing what you do.
@@elischrock5356 I've already read the paper :) It is interesting but suffers confirmation bias. But I will do something with this, my own research and honest opinion. I will also formally feedback to Norris and Norris who wrote the paper. Thank you for raising this, I do like these challenges :)
Awesome my friend.glad you mentioned Hengist and Horsa.Hengist being the tribal father of our hearth the wild stallion kindred.
Secondly i didn't know Crayford is crecganford.i used to know it well.i used to be a glazer and worked for a company in Crayford called solaglass we fitted windows all round Kent.its nice to put the name of Crecganford to Crayford.many thanks Jon.
This is so very fascinating. It's fun to juxtapose all these different myths, religious practices from these disparate places and find that they share a common origin.
Hello Teddybear. Can't wait to hear your whispery narrative.
Consistently well done. Thank you.
Thank you for your kind words
Great topic and video! I also am really digging the art, I really like the mythical feel from them. Hercules seems to represent many aspects of different types of Indo-European Gods and traditions put onto one person which I think is interesting.
Thank you, the art is by Mamontova, she advertises on Fiverr
great video!
Thank you!
Neat video. I've wondered for a while if the Asian spirits/psychopomps Ox-Head and Horse-Face were somehow a mashup of the Indo-European importance of the horse, the cow, and the divine twins. I swear I remember reading how those two worked with another pair that actually were twins in I think China, but I can't find anything about that now!
There is something in China about Pangu, and Pao (related to Taoism). Does that ring any bells?
@@Crecganford No, that doesn't seem like it.
I was looking at the divine twins of, sorry, somewhere, and found something about them being guardians of the door to the underworld. I can see such a reference in the middle east if I search it now.
Anyway, I somehow thought of the Asian psychopomp pair, Ox-Head and Horse-Face, and looked them up, presumeably with keywords from whatever I was looking at. Then, I found a page that talked about how those two would bring a soul to a door, and a pair of gods, divine psychopomps, would take charge of them. I even thought to myself, 'wow, asia has two sets of twin guardian psychopomps. I wonder if and how they're related to the Indo-European setup'. And I already mentioned the horse and ox associations.
Now, of course, I can't find any of that, and it shouldn't have been from any sites more esoteric than, say, wikipedia.
Awesome thanks John.
I haven't seen anyone mention this but there is a pair of twins, Jacob and Esau, in the Bible that I feel matches qualities of the Divine Twins. Esau was describe as a wild man and a skilled hunter while Jacob was the more passive one and stayed in the home.
I'm not aware of that pairing, I shall take a look, thank you.
That's a good point. I was just thinking about Cain and Abel, considering that their whole story is focused on one being agricultural and the other being pastoral.
It's well known that the people writing the early books of the Bible borrowed stories from other cultures, but now I have to wonder whether they borrowed the same story twice, with slightly different details.
The Hengist and Horsa legend and the invasion of Britain took place over the backdrop of the start of the Dark Ages. The Roman Warm Period was coming to an end, and temperatures were dropping, ultimately triggering the Justinian plague. Wat caused this cooling of the climate? Volcanism has been proposed, as well as cometary activity. This was also the time when Beowulf was wrestling with dragons, and Sigurd slew the dragon Fafnir, and dragons were seen in China. This reminds me of Scandinavian dragons often having horse-like heads, bringing us back to horses. A very old motif, as I learned from your video about the origins of dragons. What's also intriguing is that the (Bronze Age) Uffington white horse is best seen from the sky...Is this solar imagery, or something sun-like? Maybe more like Phaeton in his chariot falling from heaven and burning the world?
love your channel, and I loved this video specifically. And interesting, I now saw a tollywood movie called RRR, interesting (and somewhat problematic...), and it is interesting how the friendship there between the two main characters, Ram and Bheem, aligns also, in my opinion, with the divine twins motif - both have warrior characteristics to them, but the one that is more "sophisticated" is connected to horses and leadership, and the other more to the land (and even speaks of himself as "commoner" at a certain point).
Thank you for watching, and your kind words.
The same director who made RRR is in the process of making Mahabharata, it will be epic portrayal and a delight for the Indo European community. That being said, have you seen the movie Bahubali by him, if not then it will be a great watch
Bheem is kinda like Hanuman and Rama is Rama. You can see the parallels with Ramayana especially how the villian was killed. Ravan was killed by Rama while flying on Hanuman, also some roles were switched.
Well done, ! only thing I’d add or ask you to include in future content, Yeah,
All, of your amazing research, also culminates into The “Divine Twins” worshiped , and call upon in all times of War; to either Incite War, or to See, over a Contract of Peace”..
Also, into the modern, with those whose are born under the Sign of “Gemini “….
Who embody, the Polarized Perfection of the “Divine Twins”…👍
I've never been so happy to give likes on so many of any you tubers history
Wow! Thank you so much.
cool video, did you do snakes yet?
I’ve touched on dragons and serpents, but not snakes yet
And these stories are still being written toady ....for all the Dragon Lance fans out there that love Raistlin and Caramon!
Odd, since they were the creation of two different players in the initial campaign.
I think this myth's evolution can be related to inequalties between castes. In the begining wariors were more dependent to commoners. After invasion and slaverization warriors got remain more independency from others. So commoners had become less important and they had been erased from tales.
I'd also love for you to get into Yam and Mot and their connection to Leviathan and Behemoth
I did start doing research into this, but there were many contradicting papers. I will get back to this as these monsters in the bible need to addressed :)
Is there any stories that may be about interactions with neaderthals? Like Enkidu or any other possible examples?
Great question, I'm not aware of any that have academic support off the top of my head. But you've given me something to look for this week :) Thank you for question, and your support!
@@CrecganfordThank you, I really love the fascinating research and videos you share with us.
i dont believe enkidu was related to neanderthals. for one neanderthals were known to be quite civilized in relation to cro magnons at the time(art, jewelry, burials, throwing spears rather than stabbing spears(inferring hunting rather than killing) not to mention mesopatamia is on the fringes of where neanderthals are found.
its far more likely Gilgamesh/ enkidu was more in relation to the common bronze age contrast between the city builders and the hill folk or nomads. assyria at the time seeing itself as a bastion at the forefront of humanity the epitome of "the builders" and therefore gilgamesh representing this and enkidu being representitive of before, of the wilds, the nomads.
I am born in Germany , Niedersachsen ( lower saxony) , a region were traditional farm houses til the 19th century have at each top of the roof two horse heads looking to each other, meant to be hengist and horsa. Still Niedersachsen bears a white horse on a coat of arms . I learnt at school that horsa was the woman of
hengist. Never heard before they were twins. Interesting. But I think it would explain very good the disappearance of horsa, if horsa was a woman.
I never heard that Horsa was a woman, that is very interesting. I shall see if I can find the source of this motif. Thank you for sharing.
@@Crecganford I am 68 years old and it was in the first years of school in the sixties, when we got explanations what the horseheads all around are meaning. So it must have been an information for teachers of primary schools in the beginning of the sixties in Lower Saxony.
I enjoy your videos - I have learned a lot - please continue to make them!
I was given a couple of small statues that I believe may represent some form of the Divine Twins. They appear to both be male, dressed in ancient Greek or possibly Roman style. One is wearing the conical hat and has a bow and arrow, the other does not wear a hat and has what appears to be either a fishing net or a basket and what looks to be a sword. Any knowledge or information you could share about these figures would be greatly appreciated as I am curious as to whom they represent or perhaps they are just an artists representation of Divine Twins or ancient people in general?
I love the statues - they hang on the wall of my front porch on either side of my front door.
Hi, and I plan to continue as long as people watch :) Those statues sound very interesting. Would you be able to email me a picture or post it on my Facebook page? And then I can take a look. Thanks for watching and leaving you comment.
My father was 1st generation American Swedish. My mother had a few (genetically recent) ethnicities. Her maiden-name was Atwood, hailing from the Coulsdon, Sanderstead area (Croydon - abt. 25km from Crayford) in Surry, just south of the river. They were Saxon, with the name Wyckhurst, being changed during King William's reign to Atte Wode. (A branch of the family later moved to Kent.) Several generations of the early yeomen served royalty, and some had been knighted, including Sir William, who served as Captain of the King's Guard (sgt.-at-arms) at Westminster for the great King Edward III. Two of his sons also served - Sir Richard, who organized the logistics of the ships leaving London for the '100-years-war,' and, Sir Geoffrey, one of the few Knights killed at the Battle of Crecy, 26 August 1346 (perhaps protecting the teen-aged Black Prince?). A third son, Peter, had been childhood friends with Bishop Wykeham, and worked with (for) him on a few construction projects when adults. My direct ancestor left England in 1642. And so, my dear Sir of Crecganford, we are neighbors and comrades. I, too, have a natural pride of Ye Olde England and of my Saxon blood.⚖
You have managed to trace a lot of history, and quite close to some of my roots. We are indeed of similar ilk.
Very interesting
Thank you
I do not know much about mythology, but I have found that there are pagan views of history/mythology vs. biblical views. Where Jesus or other bible characters are given divinity...or not based on that criteria. Just a thought? You really know your mythology, and it is very interesting. Loved this!
Thank you, and yes the bible has a lot of mythology in it that is seen in other texts, written much earlier. It is fascinating stuff! :)
There's a story driven video game called the Life and Suffering of Sir Brante that is heavily inspired by the divine twins, and tri-apartheid, as major story premises of that game world.
Akillevs was a son of the Thetis and Peleus (here is a kind of watery backdrop but perhaps with establishing a new village - Greek Tytemis - to arrange, or set up etc)
Yes, I will cover the actual myths that remain one day as they all have interesting features. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment :)
This also similar to Ashwini Devatas of Vedic Pantheon
Have you done a video discussing the story of Ural-batyr?
I haven't but that is a really good idea... leave it with me! Thank you.
@@Crecganford looking forward to watching it
The twin story reinforces patrilineal society. It doesn't matter who their mother is; it can even be the same woman. The twins' entire fate is based on who their "real" father is.
Are the twins ever male/female? Or, cultures where brothers are related thru mother? Would they be older, perhaps outside "Indo Europe"? I love your videos. Did you kiss the Blarney stone? You are a great talker.
I have kissed the Blarney stone, but I'm not sure I know any examples in Indo-European mythology where the twins contain a female member.
You mention _Hengest_ (O.E. "stallion"). The Swedish word still in use is _hingst._
I don't really agree with the concept of the horse having replaced the cow in the Indo-European mythology. The most obvious example is the fact that the cow is still considered holy in India. Hathor in Egypt gained in relevance even after horses were introduced to their culture. And as a final example, but there are many more, in Southern Europe the Bull still plays today a major symbolic role in society while the horse, although very important doesn't have as much of an impact. At least as far as I'm aware.
This leads me to believe that you're actually focused on certain geographic areas. Could you please be more specific?
And you are indeed a living encyclopedia, which is amazing. I just would like to ask you to structure your knowledge in a clearer way. Sometimes it's a bit hard to follow and I would love to learn :)
Actually in Iranian mythology AhuraMazda has a twin brother: AngarMinu.
In Iranian old religion there is a god named Zurvan he is the god of time and he is time itself, he sacrifices ten thousand years to have a son and says when his son comes to see him he will grant him crown of the world, to his surprise a set of twin brothers born, while AhuraMazda represents light life and all good AngarMinu represents darkness death and all evil, AngarMinu wakes up earlier than his brother and goes to see his father, Zurvan doesn't like him and didn't intended to make him king of the world but AngarMinu reminded him of his promise and insisted that Zurvan keep his word (in Zurvanism king of the "sky" and the god who is in control of the world is evil) Zurvan grants AngarMinus wish but says that when ten thousand years passes then the twins have to switch places and so on for every ten thousand years.
.
In ancient Iran they didn't teach this to "regular" people only "wiser" persons over the age of 33 y.o.
very cult-like to be honest.
.
P.S: Mazda believers always associated Zurvanism with Satanism and call their ways (specially sacrificing and fasting for AngarMinu) sacrilege.
Thank you for watching and for sharing this, I will look into this further as it sounds very interesting.
one passive and farmlike, the other warlike. perhaps related to cain and able? perhaps goes back to the split in early humans between pastoralists and hunters with the farmers and civilization
I will be making a video about Cain and Abel as this comparison seems to come up a lot, but yet it doesn't sit right with me. So more research required. Thank you for watching, and leaving a comment. It is appreciated.
Divine twins are ashwin kumara mention in rigveda
I love these
Thank you!
It’s interesting how gnostic variations of stories are probably coming from the same twins idea, but making a single men of dualistic nature (demigod in sort of case). And that idea looks to be one of the most popular plots in modern movies: dualistic hero against his evil father (having a good one too)
But, not all the twins were horse twins. Even today, some Christians think Jesus is coming back riding on a white horse. Not as plague, as a hero.
@@watermelonlalala there was a popular offshoot of mainstream Christanity in which it is believed that Jesus had twin, Thomas. It was believed that Jesus represented the divine christ while Thomas represented the mortal nature.
Very interesting stuff. I recommend you look it up.
@@I_am_Irisarc Gnostic? I don't take it too seriously, as I don't know what they are talking about, but I like the part about Yahweh being the Devil. I will look that up about Thomas.
@@watermelonlalala actually it was not a gnostic sect. It was just one of many, many sects of Christianity that were made heretic by proto-orthodoxy as it arose. Unfortunately, this is something I read about some time back and don't remember enough to site sources.
@@I_am_Irisarc one of the historical 12 disciples of Jesus was named "thomas/didymus" which meant twin in Semitic/greek respectively. His actual first name was Jude/judah/Judas (the greek spelling of judah) but because that name was too extremely common among Palestinian Jews, the historical fact of his being a twin was apparently used to create a differentiating nickname during his life. When he became a prominent leader of a Christian community, a wordplay on the fact of his being a twin at birth was used to label him as a fictive "twin of Christ". This wasn't meant literally as Jesus was understood to have been born singleton by a virginal conception. The historical twin sibling of this man named Thomas may have been a female or a less prominent male, or just as likely, a sibling who died in infancy or as a toddler (child mortality was typically extremely high in antiquity). What is important is that he was historically born as a twin, though not biologically related to the family of Jesus
The Ashwins(twin divine physicians to the gods) were the fathers to Nakula And Sahadeva, half brothers of arjuna, yudhistra and bheema.
Thank you for watching.
I think that your perception of dogs will change greatly when you deeply research the Koryos rite of passage rituals. Evidence dates the ritual further back than 5000BC. Versions of it ranged from Ireland to India and beyond. Check out the king's ritual with a white horse also. Same range of Ireland to India but obviously much later in time. Beware, they're not the type of story's most would tell their children about. Cheers and thanks for the vids.
Very interested in the subject. Cheers!
I have made a video about this, and may release it next, or the video after that.
@@Crecganford I've dung your bell. I can't wait!! Very short perspective that has helped me connect many dots.
To my knowledge, present scientists are finding evidence seemingly telling us that homo sapien sapien species was failing to enter Europe, from Africa, for a long time. 60,000 years ago, this congestion of our species attempting this goal caused us to invent bow and arrows. We were finding quality wood as we entered the Neanderthal battlegrounds. We couldn't eliminate Neanderthals, using only bows, but we could more successfully make our way north. We then created relationships with dogs. This relationship is what turned the tides against Neanderthal. They couldn't sneak up on us and we could better hunt them out. If my hypothesis is accurate, then it should be expected that the Koryos came from that success story.
After farmers cut down all the European trees. The hearders used this same Koryos strategy to grow across Europe. I still think that there are remnant rituals being preformed presently. Most people preforming them don't know why.
"prince on a white horse" tails comes out of the Yamnaya culture too.
I can't thank you enough for what you're doing. Cheers mate!
@@GringoCurt That is a hypothesis I haven’t heard before., but it sounds interesting. I will see if there are papers online talking about this. Thank you for taking the time to comment, it is appreciated.
@@Crecganford Unfortunately, I haven't been able to dig any up, but as I learn more about our history, things seem to line up in this timely manner. 60k ya we invented bows, 45,000ish ya we related with dogs, 35k ya Neanderthal went extinct. Then, the ritual of Koryos occurance is discovered north of the Black Sea dating back over 5k ya. The generations that followed seemed to take over Europe, based on how widespread the ritual grew. Just me connecting dots from the data that I'm discovering as I experience the journey. Therefore, I think that it's an original idea.
Run with it if you'd like. People helping people.
I've got more impressive hypothesizes cooking anyway.
google my name to contact me directly. I'd like to stay in touch.
Again, thank you for being you and doing it well.
@@Crecganford I also think that this is why it's so taboo to eat horse, or dog, meat. Performing these rituals eventually became very ineffective when everybody became part of the same clan. Then the heads of these divisional clans form monarchies and tried being political. They continued utilizing parts of the ritual with the desires of controlling their populations. But, the parts regarding lawlessness were banished among all common folk. This is where the terms, such as heathens, were probably created.
The hero twins are all over the place. Americas have a plethora of such myths but there as I understand the twins represent the warrior chiftain and a medicine man(?) As those would be the most important roles within a tribe
Could Hengest be a cognate of the word 'hengst' in Dutch, in that language meaning either male horse or a hard punch being masculine or aggresive?
Yes Hengist means stallion, so a male horse.
Stallion in Swedish is "hingst", which is clearly related to Hengist.
and German: Hengst.
The book, Pisis Sophia, also mentions Twins in the celestial realm. And a lot of other odd stuff that mixes biblical and something like fantasy/myth/?, hard to explain. Have you read it? Twin saviors show up in Ch. 86 and 96, to begin with.
I don't recall reading that, I shall look it up. Thank you.
Things repeat in time. It comes up in the heroes first. The study of the patterns comes later. 👯
Can you please take a look at the story of Cain and Abel? Is it just me.. or is it an eko of the konflikt bewin farmers and the Shepard's that cam after? And... Sacrificing a brother?
Yes, I will, it is on my list of videos to produce and I have started to write notes.
Lots of peoples with divine twins in their mythologies
The Dine (Apache and Navaho) have some too. They destroy the monsters that threaten the humans.
Yes, I agree. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Nissien and Evnissien
Cool
Thank you
And thank you for watching and taking the time to comment.
Could they be associated with cain and abel, since one killed the other?
Maybe, but if there is a link it seems to be more indirect. I will make a video on Cain and Abel to look at this.
Are there any versions of the Jacob/Esau myth where they are alleged to have different fathers?
Makes sense with the Greek pantheon we have Artemis and Apolo
I've wondered if the Divine Twins myth goes back to the times when there different hominids in Europe. Could the twins story be a reconciliation of the different beliefs of two species in one shared world. Also, Neanderthals died off, except for those communities where they already shared descendants. Often, one twin dies (Abel, for ex.) leaving the other twin with the worldly consequences and obligations.
Identical twins were quite rare, and there must have been quite a mystery about how they happened, as we must forget understanding that conception led to birth wasn’t really understood back then. But I think this mysterious and magical event of two identical babies drove much of the twin myth because they thought it must have been magic. Where one twin dies, that is normally a reflex of the divine twins, as opposed to the twins of creation, as the weaker one reflects the common man and we often see them taken out of myth.
Is there a link between lugalbanda and the Irish Lugh?
The end of the cattle raid of cooly reminds me of the Gilgamesh epic where Gilgamesh kills his father the heavenly bull who was Lugalbanda or Nergal the husband of Ereshkirgal.
Inanna who caused the death of Nergal the bull of heaven went to the underworld to inform her sister supposedly.
I feel on a deeper level a connection between the two epics, I don't know why, perhaps because the name Enlil pops up in both stories.
Any thoughts?
Maeve was married to Elil = Inanna + Enlil. Ma Eve and Adam A Dam = mothers blood.
Damascus means blood cup.
Now think about Damascus steal, it means Grail steal not anything about a place in the middle east, blood cup steal.
Anyway lots of thoughts.
I'm not aware of any cognate or etymological connection, but I will have a look and let you know if there is.
Every single legend and myth had twins that fall for each other.. they did again and had a beautiful son..
I'm just wondering where, if anywhere, the concept of the divine twins show up in Norse Mythology? Freyr/Freya were siblings (does "counterparts" = twins?) but being Vanir, both were from lesser stock, and the female Freya was more of a warrior than Freyr..
Also, speaking of one who maintains the home, is there any parallel between the name Hestia/Vesta and the Vesta of the Zoroastrians?
The dichotomy of "one who maintains the home" and "one who goes out to fight for the homeland" is so ubiquitous that it seems less an Indo-European motif and more just a living-on-Earth motif.
I can't help but think of Cane and Abel in the bible. Could their conflict have much older routes?
This is an answer I see a lot and I will make a video to answer this, as it isn't as clear cut as you might think.
@@Crecganford My guess (and it is only a guess, in the absence of further research) is that the people writing the early books of the Bible may have copied some version of the Divine Twins myth, as they did with so many other myths (like the one about the flood), from neighbouring cultures.
In a situation like that, it's not surprising that there would be some inconsistencies, but that key motif, about one twin being agricultural and the other pastoral, is definitely there.
There's also the Onondaga myth about Sky Woman's twin sons Sapling (life, creation) and Flint (death, destruction). Could its roots be older than Indo-European?
Iroquois Good mind and Bad mind Devine twins they also have a Celestial Tree. They are descended from Odin's Wife called Sky Woman.
So nakula and sahdeva have three older brothers too, they are yudhishthir, bheem and arjun who are far more important character in Mahabharata. Do these three characters have a parallel in proto indo European religion?
That is a great question, and one I can’t answer off the top of my head, but I will look into this. Thank you for watching and the question!
0:34
Fuuuuuuuuuuck....
Stands up. Walks to kitchen. Boils water.
That is a fine idea... I may just have to do that right now too.
There a number of similarities between Caine and Abel, Jacob and Esau and Krishna and Ajuna as if having a similar origin.
The Dutch word for stallion is hengst. I imagine that came from Hengist.
It did, Hengist means stallion.
Sounds like the divine twins of WElsh mythology. One brother was the violent one, the other the peaceful one.I Nissyens and Evnissyen love the AShvins in the creation of mead story. Sparta's Castor and Polydeuce are clearer than Heracles and his twin brother. Did Hengst kill Horsa? Like Romulus killed Remus?
So you raise some interesting points, and firstly thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. So Romulus and Remus is a creation myth not a divine twins myth, which is why there is a killing of a twin. In Divine Twins myth, the lower twin just disappears.
“Despite being twins…”
“And Horsa means…. Well it means horse” 🤣
Sooooo many issues . . . .
Castor is the mortal twin, Pollux the divine. Why would the divine twin be 3rd function, and fade out, while the mortal one is 2nd function, and become prominent?
No discussion of the Baltic twins.
No discussion of the boat aspects of the twins, or their healing functions, etc.
No discussion of the accompanying "Powerful Lady" that is clearly a part of these twin myths.
The Indo-European Divine Twins are very, VERY dear to me, and I appreciate any video on Them. But there's SO much more to discuss. BTW, both Ward's and Dumézil's analyses are somewhat out of fashion these days. Great as starting points, for sure, but there's more out there.
I could discuss this for hours too, but I have to keep videos concise. And I don't care so much for fashion if the academia stands up to scrutiny by myself, especially considering the forces being applied to academic staff nowadays..
Could you explain what you meant by "boat aspects of the twins"?
I erroneously always thought hero twins was a trait of mesoamerican theology and that indoeuropean myth was always based on a singular hero. I see i was wrong.
There are lots of twins in Indo-European mythology, and I hoped you found this useful. Thank you for watching.
Are you aware that the Ancient Mayans had "Hero Twins" discussed in their holy scriptures, "The Popol Vuh"? It is plausible that the Mayan myths (which date back to perhaps 2000 BCE) predated them and were part of Ancient Mesoamerican civilizations. But surprisingly, there are no horses in the Mesoamerican myths. Are the Hero Twins represented by stars, planets or constellations?
Gemini is the constellation which makes it alot easier to understand why it's so prevalent around the globe for cultures to have "divine twins". If you haven't seen Gemini it literally looks like two stick men holding hands.
Twins in hinduism are Aswini kumaras
And ironically in some tales Zeus fathered both the male discori and Helen of Troy both from Leda
Yes, the Greek myths, if put together in one big bowl, would be an incredibly confusingly contradictory and ambiguous myth.
@@Crecganford especially when both sets of twins are born at the same time and both set are fraternal thus the true “divine” are Castor and Helen but she’s always downplayed despite being one of Zeus most known daughters even if people forget who is.
Can you a video on the seven sages? There are commonalities in indian and Greek myths about them. Is there anything related in Celtic, Slavic and German myths?
How popular is Dumezil's theory nowadays? I've heard that it's been heavily criticized.
I wonder if this can be an alternative telling of the creation of the tripartite society. Not an alternative to the story of creation from Yamos but an alternative view of the same system.
There was definitely 4 roles if you include the King, and it is odd that there is no existing myth for the commoner that we've found yet, although Lincoln is looking for them. But the classes exist, there is much evidence of this as I've shown, but there are many papers about Dumézil's work without the Tripartite Mythology, and I have never been fully swayed by them.
@@Crecganford Do you think Plato was influenced by this in _The State,_ when he divided society into philosophers, warriors, and workers?
@@Valdagast That is an interesting question that comes up a lot, and my opinion is probably not directly. He is obviously aware of classes in society, but wasn't necessarily trying to mirror the IE framework.
@@Crecganford Plato was probably influenced (also) by IE conceptions as he makes frequent references to “the old” saying this and that, e.g. the Atlantis myth. His books build on stories that recycle mythology for psychological / philosophical / political purposes - and not always to the benefit of society and humanity, but to the benefit of an aristocratic elite ruling stable, but rather static, hierarchical, authoritarian, stratified societies. (Which much later lead Karl Popper to write his WWII wartime diatribe against Communism and Fascism rooted in Plato).
Plato’s conception ties in with widespread IE conceptions of a stratified polity, which - I think - may have emerged in a more pronounced fashion, when other, more sedentary, agricultural or urban societies were ‘taken over, which then lead to the inclusion of the commoner class in societal schemes and stories and different daughter cultures, where merging of societies, cultures, belief systems and mythologies must have played a bigger role than usually acknowledged. If and to the extent that (P)IE groups merged with or took over other societies, there is originally no need for a commoner class - explaining the absence of this class - among the (P)IE themselves as they are the leader, warrior ‘nobility’ and priests - and the commoners are stemming (largely) from the ‘host societies’. That can then also explain why particular elements of material and intellectual culture show different IE and non-IE distribution patterns in elements of religion, mythology, formal institutions, where the (P)IE related elements, esp. language, are strongly IE influenced, but other cultural elements and genetics are often much more ‘conservative’ and show - particularly - on the female side strong remnants of older population components (that’s the David Reich research line).
The story is ‘culture-historical’ a bit more complicated, since there seems to have been a circular influence between ‘eastern’ (hunter-gatherer, resp. nomadic) steppe cultures and western (hunter-gatherers and agricultural) cultures from which the PIE and IE emerged. That’s detailed for example in Dan Davies youtube videos explaining the scientific background to his books. So, the corded ware emerged from a fusion of western and eastern cultures and seemed to serve itself as source for Afaniesevo and Shintasta (noted for metal-working) cultures, from which the Indo-Iranians developped, which then moved - or split - into India and Persia (and as Mitanni to Anatolia). Incidentally, the split between the Indian and Iranian ‘cousins’ is associated with complementary, opposing worldviews / religious systems: the Avestan, Indo-Iranian ‘good’ roles are the ‘bad’ ones in Vedic, Indian stories - and vice versa.
To go back to IE polities: IE conceptions at the same time seem connected with elements of ‘elite’ (advisory) ‘democratic’ institutions - election of kings / war-leaders, by elders, household heads or a nobility. One Note that also Plato seems to have been originally educated by his mother in a more democratic, egalitarian tradition, likely stemming from the pre-IE invasions to Greece, which would make it part of the Pelasgian tradition and/or their predecessors (i.e. ‘the merge’ of Anatolian farmer plus then hunter-gatherer inhabitants of Greece). We can speculate that the death of Socrates by a democratic judgement, which had a profound impact on him, lead him to a reversal or disavowal of this tradition.
@@charly996 Thank you for taking the time to read and comment, I enjoyed reading that. There is no way I can give a response the amount of time it deserves right now due to personal commitments. Although for the most part I agree with what you are saying, people often forget that things aren't binary, or one way, and so a descendant of something often is also a descendant of many other things, many influences, from many other aspects of culture and history. I also believe that the commoners weren't written about as they weren't "paying" for the service of the poets. Much like in Old Norse everything seems to be focused on Odin, the god of the sovereigns, rather than Thor, the god of the people. Dumezil did spend alot of time looking for their poems or hints of their class, but without success, but perhaps it isn't there, not because it wasn't there, but because no one thought it was worth telling stories about, not in formal stories anyway.
I live just up the road from Crawford.
I think that Hengist was a real figure from history. Wasn't he buried on a mound on Blackheath.
Unfortunately myths of Hengist and Horsa have been around for a long time, and the whole story of the invasion was written by Bede as a creation myth for Anglo-Saxon Britain. So they are but Legends, as opposed to historic. But this doesn't mean the Legend isn't important, and should be treated with respect.
Awesome video. Thank you. Do you want to see something cool I found? It proves the roots of this legend are 40k years old or older.
I'm skeptical, but would approach things with an open mind.
@@Crecganford Awesome :) Whats your email? I'll show you.
what does it mean that i am not a twin but i am sad and have crazzzy dreams
You are human.
How about Purusha and this twin sister Yami?
Since I can‘t edit my posts, I‘ll comment on my post: In Vedic (and Hindu) mythology it’s - among others - the pair of twins Yama and Yami (also associated with the river Yamuna in some versions). Yama becomes the lord of the underworld after his death and would (as dead twin) thus correspond to the dismembered twin (or cow in much older, pre-Indo-European versions) from whom the world is created. Yami is the Lady of Life, Earth. In later variants, she could correspond to the role which became Greek singer Orpheus trying to get his/her deceased lover from Hades, the king of the underworld (also a - duplicated - instantation of her deceased lover). Orpheus’ lover was the nymph Eurydike, dying from treading on a snake, while fleeing from an attempt rape.
I guess there is some duplication and reversal of male and female roles over the course of cultural development, characterized by differentiation and re-merging of story elements, which is reflected in different, not completely ‚logical‘ variants of the story, certainly likely if written up much later than told, by generations that did not necessarily understand the story as told ‚originally‘.
I would surmise that a male / female twin pair is historically older than the Indo-European instances of the male twins (that in some instances seem to allude to female aspects in one twin, which might also explain why one (the female twin) was not chosen as king under / leader in more male-dominated societies) and may be related to the idea of the first couple (which necessarily needs to be at least closely related if a biological perspective is taken).
That would also shed some light on the story of Adam and Eve, where it is not immediately clear why attaining knowledge (through plucking an apple from a tree) per se would be original sin. However, if this describes an incestuous relationship between closely related Adam and Eve, the story becomes much more „reasonable“: knowledge pertaining to how to have a sexual relationship.
The development and thus variants of the story should also reflect the history of means of attaining sustenance, cultural exchange, innovation and societal organization: hunter-gatherer vs. pastoral vs agricultural vs cattle-raiding societies (to use typological concepts that risk masking a more complicated reality) should have their respective versions, with historical remnants hidden in their elements and the structural make-up of the story both reflecting the history of the group / culture / society it is told in.
Since the Orpheus / Eurydike myth has parallels seen the world over including in Japanese and Mayan culture, it seems older than a ‚purely’ Indo-European conception. See Savitri and Satvayan in India, Izanaki and Izanami in Japan, Itzamna (also the principal bird deity, think Purusha) and Ixchel (a fertility / medical goddess).
Occurrence in Japanese culture could in theory be explained by cultural diffusion through (later) movements of people and missionary and trade relationships, occurrence in Mayan culture signals that it should have existed before people moved across the earlier land bridge along what later became the Bering strait, which makes it (at least) in the vicinity of 15.000 years old. As a myth explaining the emergence of mankind, it should be pretty ‚fundamental‘, shared potentially by many cultures in a genetic (developmental) perspective, and thus logically very old.
Since it is also argued that the twins emerged from an androgyne, hermaphroditic being in an even earlier version of the myths‘ likely sequence, and this myth seems related to the Orpheus - Eurydike story (in the Greek / Thracian rendering), one can - as a working hypothesis - posit the following developmental sequence: androgynic version, male - female version, with brother-sister first, couple later and ‚finally’ a male - male version of the twins in (proto-)Indo-European resp. male dominated cultures.
Hi Carl, yes there are twin myths allover the world, and there are often similarities between them. I will look at the wider picture one day, and hopefully sooner rather than later. And thanks for taking the time to tell us all that information, it is appreciated :)
@@Crecganford Thank you! Yes indeed, it is a lot - and a case of tl; dr. 😋However, it was also a nice occasion to get some ideas out of my head to where they might find a fruitful soil.
Purusha and Yami. Not there.
It's Yama and Yami.
Ever watched twin peaks? It looks like it is off of twins mythology too. They have evil Bob and good Mike for ex.
I never thought of that, it was a weird show.
@@Crecganford yeah my guess it is about decapitation of kings
The room where they meet might be the universe and where they speak backwards in a robotic way. Maybe they are referring to the language of the face of God. Mike says that he saw the face of God.
It looks like they got the stuff from the American Indian religion maybe Mt Shasta?
A stallion is still called "hingst" in Danish.
Ashwini twins. India is the homeland. Where the twins still live. And the twins are still worshipped.