The Rejection of Nature and the Need for a Return with JONATHAN PAGEAU | EMP Podcast 133
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- Welcome back to the Evolve Move Play podcast!
Today Jonathan Pageau rejoins us to explore the intersections of technology, our relationship with nature, and the spiritual quests that define our humanity.
We delve into the challenges and opportunities presented by digital advancements and how they impact our connection to the natural world. Through a series of thought-provoking reflections, we examine the delicate balance between technological progress and environmental stewardship.
Our conversation ventures into the realms of personal growth, the pursuit of meaningful values, and how embracing our roles within nature can lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and our place in the world.
To listen to a previous conversation I had with Jonathan, check out the episode Patterns of Being with Jonathan Pageau | EMP Podcast 96 -
• Patterns of Being with...
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JONATHAN PAGEAU
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TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Introduction
03:30 Nature, Freedom, and Human Connection
12:16 Ethical Living
18:21 The Impact of Technology on Society
27:22 Understanding Religion and Spirituality's Impact
37:26 Modern Society's Challenges and Critiques
49:02 Environmental Concerns and Technological Ethics
01:14:18 The Future Role of Religion and Spirituality - Zábava
The idea that constraint is necessary for meaning helped me look at the rest of my life in a better way. Thanks for this talk.
You are welcome, I find the idea of constraints and affordances organizing our being so useful.
Constraints and affordances that result from sacrifices either consciously or unconsciously made.
Awesome conversation
Thank you Paul
You mean "cahhhn-ver-ZAshun" Paul...
It's the net that makes tennis fun and meaningful. The greatest players continue to play because they love it. Love is both fun and meaningful.
Eeey I've been waiting for another one of these
its a good one enjoying listening back to it
The solving boredom really does have a cost. I remember growing up in the 90s and 00s and being bored and the solution was walk around in the neighborhood and find one of my friends or go to their house or call a friend on the phone that was only a phone and do something together. Today if I get bored that is never my first thought, there’s an infinite sea of information and recreation on my phone and talking to a real person I care about is not my first option much of the time, and that’s not even a conscious choice I make seemingly. But am I happier learning new things or enjoying things I like on my phone rather than talking to my friends or family or seeing them? Certainly not.
Yes we can escape boredom always now but the costs....
22:15 basketball illustration and then Pageau’s response about misconceptions of hierarchy. ❤
“Love is an existential stance…toward the world or a person…”. Vervaeke. I think that’s what he said. ❤️. Wonderful sharing here.
“Love isn't an emotion. It isn't a feeling. It is an existential stance of commitment to binding your identity to the identity of something or someone else.” - John Vearveake
@@wiktor5016 Love this quote
Glad to be introduced to you through Jonathan, as I’m sure a lot of people will. This was a great episode, now I’m on to a deep dive of your channel, starting with Hsieh, because I like Vervaeke and cog sci. Thanks and subscribed!
39:08 “agency beyond an individual” and kids & phones technology “it’s like fighting a demon” 💯
In America freedom is about the idea that our rights are endowed to us by our creator, and not the political state. It’s political freedom like the first amendment right to worship.
So appreciated Rafe's take on ARC & stewardship. (And the whole chat was great, thanks)
Great conversation. We need to spread the idea of subsidiary mixed in with the wildness of the natural world that Pageau mentioned - Far and wide.
The culture that connects us to the land connects us to each other.
1:14:27 Grim! Remember, Embody. + my personalist knowing. ❤
1:07:00 this kairos moment point and illustration that Jonathan makes is really good.
It’s why one can’t create a new religion. Or anything completely novel.
Ordered gardening predates the enlightenment by about a thousand years or more but I understand the sentiment... don't be confused play the seeming randomness the English garden. It oftentimes takes more planning and organizational precision then almost any other form.
Really enjoyed this conversation, Rafe! A lot of great insights shared! I appreciated the discussion around how constraints are necessary and actually enable a greater freedom, with the guitar and family stories. (Especially constraints on technology and the will to power/control) Also enjoyed the discussion of subsidiarity and a more healthy role for hierarchy, with the basketball story.
I was initially surprised by the overemphasis on Christianity and Christian values as some sort of "solution" to the many challenges of our times, but maybe I misinterpreted the emphasis. The Christian Moral Ethos you reference as foundational to our culture, I would suggest, didnt just originate with one man who lived about 2000 years ago, but came from many rich cultural traditions stretching back much much further in time, from Pagan traditions, the Jewish Torah, Eastern Buddhist and Hindu influences and of course Plato and many other Western/Continental influences. (As Vervake does a good job of tracing in his work)
For a taste of some of the older originating sources I highly recommend Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Kimmerer. In the first chapter she cleverly compares a Native American creation myth with the Jewish/Christian story of the Garden of Eden.
In the Schamchtenberger, Vervake, McGilchrist conversation you referenced, Rafe, the suggestion that we need A religion (to constrain self destructive behaviors in society at large) seemed suspicious. Not so much the religious part, but the "a" part of the phrase. This seems to suggest some sort of global religion, is the "answer." This sounds like it fails the same tests as Harari's one world government idea, except taking it into the realm of spirit/divine. Pageau makes a strong case that such efforts are bound to fail like the tower of Babel, and we're much better off with a multiplicity of ways of relating to that realm of existence.
Anyways thanks again for the thought provoking chat! Keep it up!
Hey Levi, really glad you enjoyed the conversation. RE christianity, saying overemphasis is normative statement that implies there is an optimal amount of emphasis on christianity. What do you think that would be? Jonathan is orthodox christian so its makes sense that the specific influence and power of that religion would be focal. I have also been exploring my own relationship to christianity so it has intensity for me at the moment.
I don't think there is an implication of need for one world religion, but we in the west do need to specificallly undestand the role of christianity as it is the foundation of our cultural grammar. I don't think anyone in this space would claim it all originates in one man, christ is seen rather as a culmination.
Braiding sweatgrass has been on my too read list for a while.
@@RafeKelley Ah gotchya. Yeah the emphasis makes sense given that context.
Thanks! Hope you enjoy the book!
Hi. Please forgive my chipping in, John clarified what he meant though, no? 'The new religion' more meaning the adapting of the current old religions?
Excited for this
This is going to be good, I can feel it!!
18:50 “love does not insist on its own way”
This one is also an amazing conversation!
Thanks
The Ringing Cedars of Russia books are a great resource for this topic of thought!
It's cool to hear the "constrain to afford talk" in this space while I'm also hearing it gain popularity in the BJJ world. Of course, you guys have been talking about this stuff for way longer.
A traditional Methodist church service also moves to increase focus.
43:15 the point about localism and Walmart and open borders ❤👏🏼
I’m dubious of all scale, so far.
2:04 - 6:02
On Freedom
JBP has a great clip out there (he’s wearing a shirt with a prominent collar) on freedom of the will
I thought I recognized you from somewhere parkour guy, love to see this pageau is doing great stuff.
The snake in the garden represents the possibility for creation to betray the creator... Christ becomes the possibility for you as creation to serve the creator. That is true freedom, to know good and evil (and choose good).
Can anyone link to info about how the jesus prayer was recited with the breathing etc?
The idea of mtM trans has been satirised already by jreg. He's an interesting case study in this chronically online world, especially his recent pivot into focusing on community and sincerity. He deserves some attention from TLC
I have an idea I call 'running away from ourselves' which may explain a lot of the transhumanist movement among other things.
"this is happening". Neil Howe has recently written a book, and update to his 1997 book The Fourth Turning. The new one is called We Are In The Fourth Turning. It will explain a lot of what is happening right now, offers hope because this direction we are heading will change, around 2030 +/- a few years. Well worth a read.
I am curious to hear more.
28:09 this is hilarious. “Andrew Tate is a male to male trans person.”
So true.
Good religion is the proper orientation towards the mysterious.
Yes. Orthodox Christianity.
I believe it was alan watts who said "free will only exists in proportion to Self knowledge" (that's capital S self, not self as idiosyncracy or spur of the moment whim)
good quote
John 3 my friend
I wonder if Jonathan has researched the Ba'hai faith?
47:03 technological babel
26:28 the myth of the “isolated, autonomous individual” vs the divine person.
One is relational and has a legit sensical ontology. One doesn’t.
There are better ways to mitigate existential risk that are preferable to a world state. Space Colonization is one such example. We have colonized places that were hard to live in given our current state of technology in the past and made them liveable. I don't see how space colonization is any different then say the people who first moved to Scandinavia, northern Russia or The Himalayas given their current state of technology. That was a pretty sophisticated feat to accomplish back then given their technological limitations and the harsh environment.
19:00 LOVE is the topic. The host seems to want to define his potential for love by societal standards. That's not necessary. One's potential for love is infinite, fall into the ocean; or avoid it. We don't know what we are capable of until we are tested or afforded, and your heart is not what you 'think'. Take it from the man.
Rafe are you seeing a big overlap between the experience of the Holy Spirit and the experience of dopamine?
In Orthodoxy the Holy Spirit is known as the Spirit of peace
The ek-stasis of the Divine Liturgy is real and also peaceful
Entering the presence of the Kingdom of the Prince of Peace who defeated death, sin and the devil and welcomes us into the battle by His side
I suspect if you did the neurobiology of religious experiences dopamine would be involved but far from the predominant neurotransmitter. Dopamine is is assocated with entrainment of behavior it is not neccesarily assocated with enjoyment in an of itself, and I don't think its particular related to experiences of Awe. I had never truly prayed when this was recorded not long afterwards I started engaging seriously with Christian prayer and the experiences have been quite eye opening and intense. Often the experience has felt more like intense grief but positive.
@@RafeKelleythat’s beautiful. Our hearts can open more and more to God. May He mold us into who we were created to be, to be His co-workers here and do His work while we can
@@RafeKelleyGlory to God.
I don't see how nature is recalcitrant. When we see nomics, it is more like cooperative.
Just as the tree of life and the water of life is at the center of the technological that protects so should Christ be at the center of our life understanding the vertical and horizontal relationship between tree and water. Man unfortunately inverts this process and puts its technological protection at the center and slowly kills his spirit that which should give him life and gets controlled by the thing that makes him feel safe
8:48 re: postmodernism and relativism.
All truth is personal and therefore relative, but not arbitrary. And yes. The postmodernsits were very correct on their criticism of objective, absolute, systematic “knowledge”.
If it's personal and relative, then it's literally arbitrary by definition. Personal preference is the same as arbitrariness.
dang. this guy Rafe is straight corn. lol. glad he's talking with Pageau.
lay off the Brett Weinstein, bro.
Let your guest talk.
1:26:03 ecclesia “called out” Ephesians 1, resonating with Genesis, “hovering over the abyss…let there be light”.
Called out of nonbeing into being.
Most broadly, the Church is what exists, the Bride of Christ, the entirety of the Cosmos in its fullness.
How is morality objective?
How can it not be? If it isn't, then "it's all just your opinion dude"
@@olgakarpushina492 Exactly. There's never been an agreed upon moral code and EVEN THAT wouldn't make it objective.
@@TheDionysianFields if it's subjective, why even consider morality. That concept obviously doesn't exist. Except, of course, the fact that it IS objective and thus it does exist.
@@olgakarpushina492 So if I say it's okay to lie and you say it's wrong, which one of us gets to decide the objective truth and morality?
@@TheDionysianFields oh, that's easy. Since moral isn't subjective, we both clearly know that lying is bad. Or are you telling me that you really believe lying is good? And even if you do, obviously your worldview can't have any claims on what is good or bad, so whatever you say can be dismissed as lacking justification.
Free will is the freedom to live out the meaning ( reason for being, destiny) of our existence.
If we understand that we can see God as a disembodied mind that produces bodies in itself, just as our mind produces bodies (thoughts and emotions) in itself about itself, so God produces ideas (bodies) in Himself about Himself. The difference lies in the fact that in order to give flesh to our ideas, we must devote ourselves entirely to that idea, while God generates ideas that have the freedom to fulfill themselves or not.
And then, when we restrict ourselves to doing things that are above us, to God, as God is ineffable and infinite, we restrict ourselves to the infinite, because what greater idea for God can be other than the idea of making gods?
As for the end of Christianity, I think Jonathan Pageau is wrong. It didn't even really start. The last 2000 years have been a transition from the law to the spirit of the law (from the Old to the New Testament) and I think that is what we are heading towards, to a society that lives in the spirit of religion and not only in relation to its laws (commandments).
At least all the other games I've seen are bullshit in the technical sense.... oof 🔥
I don't follow sorry can you expand?
@@RafeKelleyhe was quoting Jonathan
All true and good, but really basic stuff. But I suppose these days it bears repeating anyway.
Everthing basic and fundamental needs to be rediscovered in an age of delusion.
@@RafeKelley No argument there.