5 More Trains (That Are Not What They Seem) | History in the Dark
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
- Locomotives in disguise continue to slip by without being noticed. But not on my watch!
0:00 - Intro
0:48 - Compressed Air Locomotives
3:18 - ACE 3000
7:57 - Columbia Steam Motor Locomotive
11:04 - Norfolk and Western 2300
13:59 - Velox Boiler Locomotive
"A fireless locomotive is a type of locomotive which uses reciprocating engines powered from a reservoir of compressed air or steam, which is filled at intervals from an external source. They offer advantages over conventional steam locomotives of lower cost per unit, cleanliness, and decreased risk from fire or boiler explosion; these are counterbalanced by the need for a source to refill the locomotive, and by the limited range afforded by the reservoir."
"The ACE 3000 was a prototype modern 4-4-4-2 coal-burning steam locomotive which was designed in the late 1970's to early '80's by Ross Rowland, L. D. Porta, and a design team from the American Coal Enterprises company."
"Four of these metre-gauge locomotives were built by the Sentinel Waggons Works Ltd of Shrewsbury, England; the first was sold to the Belgian State Railway in May 1934. Three more were produced for the Soci�t� National des Chemins de Fer en Colombe, in Colombia, South America, and these were first shipped to Belgium for testing on metre-gauge track there, and then on to South America in June 1934."
"The Norfolk and Western 2300, also known as the Jawn Henry, was a single experimental steam turbine locomotive of the Norfolk and Western Railway. The N&W placed it in the TE class. It was nicknamed "the Jawn Henry" after the legend of John Henry, a rock driller who famously raced against a steam drill and won, only to die immediately after. It was designed to demonstrate the advantages of steam turbines espoused by Baldwin Chief Engineer Ralph P. Johnson. It was the longest steam locomotive that was ever built."
"A Velox boiler burns fuel oil or pulverised coal under pressure in a water-tube boiler. The pressure in the combustion chamber is about 35 lb/sqin, almost tripling the density of the air, and so making more oxygen available and allowing a higher firing rate. It contains only a small mass of water, so the boiler can raise steam from cold in 15 to 20 minutes. After stopping firing for an hour, apparently only 6 minutes were require to regain steam pressure."
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I grew up in Eastern Kentucky and talked with a lot of retired N&W personnel. The Jawn Henry worked well enough that they actually wanted to buy more as they thought any problems it had could be overcome. It was Baldwin that killed the locomotive. N&W wanted 25, but Baldwin would only build them if they bought 50. N&W may have eventually bought 50, but at the time only wanted 25 and Baldwin refused to build only that many. The Jawn Henry was retired because it was one of a kind and by the late 50s, it was getting hard to get parts for steam locomotives. As late as 1955, they planned to operate steam until about 1965, but they were having to increasingly make parts in their shops that they used to be able to just buy. That's why they completely dieselized in about 5 years.
Also because baldwin jacked up the price tag of the Jawn Henry and Stuart Saunders was the guy who rapidly dieselized the N&W
The Jawn Henry started off with a Hooter Whistle but got replaced with a horn. The Jawn Henry can also be seen in Pillars of Smoke in the Sky and Pocahontas Glory Volumes 2, 7 and 8. Also the Jawn Henry was scrapped in 1958 not 1961.
whoah. noice
that motherfucker has to be made by K&L Trainz
In some European countries like Germany, a few power plants still utilize fireless locomotives for daily operation at the plants.
yes, because fireless train = no emissions or significant heat from engine = safer in some aplications
@@eliasalvarez295 Yup
And in the uk. Used in cheminal plants so no fire hazard.
@@kevinrayner5812 Makes sense.
Yes, but they run on steam.
The steam motor locomotive being fired to 550 psi is because Doble steam systems (in automobiles) were high pressure. Using steam automobile parts to power a locomotive is actually pretty clever. Sadly not everyone had the knowledge to maintain the sophisticated Doble engines, even here in North America where the steam powered automobiles could be found on the road! Jay Len's Garage has a few videos on the Doble steam cars which I would recommend checking out for more info on how they worked. Very cool list!
I see the ace 3000, maybe darkness is finally getting into modern steam
For the Sentinel thing: these are basically enlarged versions of their famous steam trucks
Close, but not quite. Sentinel Waggon Works at the time had their famous DG and S models of steam waggons (Trucks or Lorries), which used their patented vertical boiler, a maintenance dream. The Sentinel Shunting engines used by LNER were basically a DG4 (the number stood for the wheels) on rails. They also built fairly conventional locomotives, in the smaller sizes. When the Columbian was built Abner Doble was an eccentric genius for hire, so they used uniflow steam motors; the high pressures were from the automotive steam designs for these motors, however a Doble boiler wasn't scalable for use, or capable of solid fuels, the Sentinel boiler was likewise, however a superheated Yarrow three drum would fit the requirements.
The first loco IS a Fireless loco, the "Tank" actually a pressure vessel would be filled with high pressure steam & water, they could run for hours in the factories. Other than mines, common places to find them would be places where you do not want sparks, such as Oil Refineries, large Paper Mills and Factories which manufacture explosives. Another large user of them would be Power stations, where there is an abundance of steam.
The Columbian steam motor locomotive is actually the basis of Gator from Thomas. You might not remember him since he barely appeared in the series.
Which one was gator again?
He was that guy in tale of the brave
I remember Gator.
To explain, Sentinel Waggon Works at the time had their famous DG and S models of steam waggons (Trucks or Lorries), which used their patented vertical boiler, a maintenance dream. The Sentinel Shunting engines used by LNER were basically a DG4 (the number stood for the wheels) on rails. They also built fairly conventional locomotives, in the smaller sizes. When the Columbian was built Abner Doble was an eccentric genius for hire, so they used uniflow steam motors; the high pressures were from the automotive steam designs for these motors, however a Doble boiler wasn't scalable for use, or capable of solid fuels, the Sentinel boiler was likewise, however a superheated Yarrow three drum would fit the requirements. Both the Doble and Sentinel Boilers are what's called flash boilers, meaning instead of boiling a large amount of water at once, it's a small amount quickly.... so like the Velox, a Doble car could go from cold(ish) to perambulating (enough to move slowly around the neighbourhood) in under 15 minutes, and at 100% in another 15 minutes; A Sentinel took 45 minutes from lighting a fire to basic movement, and and was at 80% inside an hour, 100% 15 minutes later. The Doble operated at 600psi, the Sentinel at 300psi.
Sentinel were acquired by Rolls-Royce, and became their diesel factory, building Shunting locomotives.
Fireless Steam Engines are also used in locations like Petrochemical plants and refineries where Fire = BAD!
I can just hear that computer responding to the engineer in #4..."I'm sorry, Dave...I can't do that."
Looks like the Steam Motor locomotive is actually the base of Gator from TTTE: The Tale of The Brave
The fireless locos with domes and reservoirs covered by insulated lagging are generally the ones charged with extremely hot pressurised water from a stationary boiler which boils off to produce steam as the pressure drops. The ones with unlagged reservoirs, where all the rivets can be seen are the compressed air locos.
The ACE 3000 also had its roots planted in the C&O 614's coal train tests of January 1985 and other steam locomotives like South African Red Devil 4-8-4 and Livio Dante Porta's La Argentina 4-8-0 locomotive. The Red Devil is also a very advanced steam locomotive too even for 3 foot 6 inch where it was built by David Wardale who was a colleague of Livio Dante Porta. The Red Devil also achieved 28% saving on coal and 30% saving on water with 43% increase in drawbar power. More information is on Mark I video's Winter Coal Trains DVD
614 will be back.....
@@cykablyatman6242 any update on 614 as of now?
Thanks history in the dark for doing the ACE 3000!
Back in the 90s I saw a restored but non-operational steam-charged fireless locomotive displayed at an outdoor shopping mall in Westbrook, CT.
The ACE 3000 almost seems like an attempt at fixing the SR's Leader class, and I'd have believed it was conceptualized at the same time. But the '70's, that's an interesting timeframe.
And fireless/compressed air locomotives, aside from working decently in mines and tunnels, are pretty alright in cases of basically pre-starting a typical steam engine. If you've got an engine that needs to be steamed up quickly, you can take a fireless engine, and pump the steam engine up full of the steam from the fireless one and get it working faster.
The temperature difference alone is what gonna kill your boiler pretty fast.
A conventional boiler can be started and boiling steam as fast as 30 mins.... But nobody does that. The next closer thing is under 2 hrs but its still not ideal.
You got to have at least 24hrs of slow firing the firebox before generating pressure. You basically need to cook the boiler at an even temperature as uneven and large temperature difference on some places on the boiler is enough to stress it to the point of failure.
Just imagine this, a boiler popping its safety fuse as max pressure is reached while boiler barrel shell itself is cold to the touch, its a situation were the fire starter guy gets fired and the fireman equally so if he continues to feed it some more fuel.
I saw one air pressure engine at the Age of Steam Roundhouse, The ACE 3000 was a project I wished they created, The Jawn Henry was one of my 2 favorite steam turbine locomotives (the other being PRR 6200) and one that I wished they preserved.
Brilliantly done again Sir Darkness
I enjoy your little history lessons and I admire your commitment to research and share some very obscure machines 👏👏👏👏
The Sentinals are the basis for Gator in TTTE and he is the guy that tells percy to be brave
In Germany, they were popular with Steel Mills because they could run off of the excess steam generated by the smelting steel
14:07 this locomotive wanted to be one of every known locomotive type 🤣
The xelox boiler engine be like - PARKOUR
Fun fact, and you all may have me for this, but the Columbian Steam Motor was the basis for gator in Thomas and Friends.
The pneumatic locomotive was the only fireless locomotive to survive the introduction of electric traction. The ammonia absorption and caustic soda engines were removed from service within two years of the first successful electric locomotive.
Some fireless locos actually _are_ charged with steam rather than compressed air, according to books I've read. Another application for them is sugarcane work - you don't want cinders and funnel sparks in cane fields.
The high pressure on the Columbia steam motor locos may have been to adjust for them being steam motor rather than direct drive. Or maybe it was to help keep steep gradients from disrupting the boiler flow.
Glad to see more of these videos keep up the good work :)
Hey Darkness,
Quick question…. Will you ever do reviews of Lego trains? I think it’d be really cool to get your opinion of some of The Lego Group’s finest in locomotive and rolling stock design.
Anyways, good video. You earned a like!
Another, bigger problem the compressed air loco solved was in specifically coal mines. In those, there was a lot of coal dust in the air which sparks or basically any exposed flame could ignite, which would often result in huge sections of the mine going up at once
Hey you added the modern steam engine prototype I recommended that a couple weeks back it was making its rounds in rail forums
awesome video!!!!
How about the 5 saddest engines? Start with the North Eastern Railways number 13, an express electric that just didn't get the chance to extend itself. North Eastern had a small electric system between Shildon and Erimus yard near Middlesbrough that had some rather good freight engines on it, 10 in number, and Sir Vincent Raven wanted to electrify the East Coast main line between York and Berwick-upon-Tweed. Which didn't happen for another 69 years. And number 13 (foreshadowing much?) never got the chance to show itself. They did do freight service for tests and performed admirably, but no dice.
I was half expecting to see an electric steam engine. A conventional steam engine with a pantagraph and heated water using electricity rather than coal. The Swiss used them.
The Columbia steam motor locomotive is the inspiration for Gator from Thomas and Friends.
If you want to talk about weird steam locomotives that could get up to pressure fast, then you need to talk about the Bell Locomotive Works' engines. Instead of a normal boiler, they had a steam generator, and they could be set up to burn Gasoline, Kerosene, Fuel Oil, or Crude Oil, depending on the burner installed in that particular locomotive. They all used geared steam motors, and the company made everything from self-propelled railcars, to 0-4-0 saddle, side, and rear tank engines, to twin-truck 8-wheelers, to 0-4-0 tender engines, to 0-4-0s with built-in steam condensers. If you needed a tiny steam locomotive that could handle extremely sharp curves, and also had decent tractive effort, they probably had something that would fit your needs.
Air locomotives are also used in flammable dust/volatile atmosphere work environments.
Never seen a compressed air loco. I always thought i needed to make a model small steam engine that uswd compressed air for something like a steam punk project. But actually usedul. Fan or charger. Since i have compressed air at home and work perhaps i should. Perhaps using mostly 3d printed parts
Now we need a top five Ocean Liner concepts that never set sail.
The biggest problem wasn’t smoke from the steam engine, it was the open fire. Because mines often had trapped natural gas (methane), which is highly flammable! So mix air, natural gas, and fire, and >BOOM!< Now, you have a much bigger problem! So called, “fireless” locomotives were used in other industries where flammable gases were present.
Next time, you should talk about the steam engines that got dressed up as street cars
I have a compressed air locomotive on display at my hometowns rope factory. It's a little 0-4-0 built by Baldwin in the 1870s-1880s
Steam turbines are great in deep sea ships and power stations where there's a fairly constant high load, but in a locomotive, where you have frequent starting, stopping and reversing, they're not so good.
Torque is main problem even with gears it is problematic for turbine to produce enough at the start, while for steam engine it is no problem. Steam turbines simply have same problem as ICE, they both can produce torque only when they are already rotating, steam engines and electric motors, on the other hand, can produce torque from the start.
The germans made the BR19. A steam motor locomotive. It was shipped to the US for testing after the war, and finally scraped.
Here in New Jersey at the Whippany Railway Museum, they have a fireless cooker locomotive (7240) that was a switcher for two different Texaco oil refineries.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the leader class when you talked about the ACE 3000
Also 7:57 Gator is that you?
Darkness... You can't talk about the Ace3000 without mentioning Ross Rowland.
Seen a couple of compressed air/steam locomotives, one was used in a sugar plantation, and the other (I believe) in a flour mill - both commodities can be explosive in powdered form, making open fires and sparks an unhealthy proposition.
The great Isambard Kingdom Brunel built an air railway, using a slotted pipe running the whole length of the track. Greased leather seals prevented leaks, sort of, but it never worked properly.
Cos the rats ate the leather 😂😂🤦♀️
I saw the ACE 3000, I twigged it instantly.
Im pretty sure you covered Bulleid's Leader class in a previous video, that was an earlier experiment in the same field.
I always wanted to develop a modern steam locomotive design.
A Condenser was previously used on a South African locomotive called the SAR Class 25, you can still find some videos on how it sounded like. 3 still exist but are in national reserve.
Wish you did a DVD movie of History!
I think if you were to include the caveat about transmission gears for steam turbines, we would quit correcting you about the inefficiency issues. Because it sounds like you are saying these turbine locomotives are all direct drives, when I am certain I heard that they were trying to get gearing, but they couldn't get it to work.
Another issue I read (on Wikipedia, so take with a block of salt) was an issue with getting the vacuum a steam engine needs inside to work, but it wasn't elaborated on.
I think the best chance steam turbines had were the one Turbo-Electric locomotive built, because that could be run at max speed all the time.
Heeey! It’s gator from Thomas!
The fireless locomotives where used in amunition factories
For the steam motor #3... the only reason i could think the boiler pressure is that high is to operate all 6 motors since if the pressure is to low it will lose all power/pressure in moments and the fire would have a harder time to keep up. So having it that high gives the fire man enough time to regulate the unit.
A video on armored trains would be welcome. Numerous users in WWI and its aftermath, and the Germans, Soviets, and Japanese in WWII. And this also brings to mind railway artillery, with all the major powers having some in WWI, with Germans and Soviets the main users in WWII. This led to Dora, the 800mm Big Chungus gun that straddled double tracks.
ACE 3000! Steam trains in disguise! ACE 3000 MORE THAN MEETS THE EYYYYEEEEEESSS
7:57 and I know this because of the basis for Gator from TTTE
That compressed air locomotive is literally a tanker
THE STEAM MOTOR IS GATOR FROM TTTE
Two British ideas you may want to look at, first one is when the Great Weatern Railway disguised some locos as coaches, we are not talking about railmotors, which were coaches with steam engines in them, but engines fitted with a dummy coach body. The second is Oliver Bulleid's Leader class, designed for the Southern railway but built for British rail, looked like a diesel, used technology from motor cars, and were a massive failure
I have seen a mining line that has build one air loco from a huge propane tank
ACE 3000 is quite was quite interesting concept, but not first of it's kind, there was somehow similar project in Great Britain around WWII and perhaps up to the 50's that lead to construction of similar locomotive, but it did not end well. Only one was build and it had some serious flaws and the whole project was later halted and engine sadly scrapped.
I would say that many of flaws of Velox locomotive could have been avoided if they would made two small changes in the design. Namely replacement of diesel generator with set consisting of steam turbine and rotary converter or motor generator (depending on design of the machine and size etc.) and having all other things powered by DC motors. Such locomotive then would be started with power from electric grid.
Sentinel also made a run of 0-4-0 industrial shunting engines, which used a bigger version of the engine and boiler from Sentinel's steam wagons, with chain drive to the wheels.
8:46 so thats what Mattel Based Gator off of in ttte
N and W should have conserved that loco in spot two of this video. It looks awesome
Fun fact C&O 614 greenbrier was used as a tester for ACE 3000 project
From what I heard the N&W loved the Jawn Henry, and wanted 25 more, but Baldwin jacked up the price and asked for an order of atleast 50 to build them.
I dare you to find an alternate drawing of the ACE 3000 that I remember seeing in a middle school age science book 20 years ago. This simple drawing of the red one seen everywhere sucks. The one I saw was a very detailed cutaway view of the engines inner workings and the body was yellow like Union Pacific livery. I've tried many times to find this image including revisiting the library I saw the book in in the first place to no avail.
In Arizona, a small fleet of fireless locomotives were used at a dynamite plant
Did Norfolk and Western curtail to use esteem in order to reduce track maintenance expenses therefore raising their stock price so they could buy the Wabash Railroad. Steam locomotives are inherently harder on track than Diesels or electric. Their outlay for track maintenance declined sharply and their stock climbed to where they could acquire the Wabash and eliminate the competition from the other Railroad. If the ICC forbade them from buying to Wabash and order to keep competition alive they would have never scrapped their steam locomotive. Many bankrupt railroads bought Diesel's because their purchases were subsidized either by EMD or by Standard Oil. Many railroads that bought diesels on credit scrapped many steam locomotives that had Decades of service life left into them. Indeed many of the railroad that went bankrupt while the steam engines were sitting in a scrap line 20 years after the line went bankrupt after buying diesels. Many Branch lines that were profitable using a pay for old steam locomotive became unprofitable to operate when they have to support the purchase of a brand new diesel locomotive
The Norfolk and Western 2300 looks and sounds like someone tried to build a diesel-electric, except with a steam turbine instead of diesel engine. Given that a lot of its flaws were avoidable mechanical problems (e.g. electric systems not working, coal dust and water getting into the electric motors HOW DID THEY SCREW THAT UP?), I wonder if it's also a candidate for the worst trains ever list.
I kinda disagree with it being one of the worst trains ever because it sounded like the Jawn Henry was the most successful attempt at making a steam turbine and getting it to work decently here is the US. It just had issues with the boiler pressure controls and the coal dust and water leaking into and messing up the traction motors . These could of been worked on and I could imagine these would of been successful then if they did. But these came out during dieselization. So I would say these steam turbines weren’t given a good chance at making changes to make them better. That’s what I think of these engines.
During the velox boiler locomotives, all I could imagine was a closeup of a stick figure that was complaining furiously about a French locomotive
Hmmm…..
i should animate it
I know the top ones
Top left is the Colombia steam motor and top right is the ace 3000 concept locomotive
And the bottom left is the n&w no.2300 steam turbine
That whole thing with the Ace 3000 having smaller driving wheels = not able to handle stuff well is ridiculous! THAT'S NOT HOW STEAM LOCOMOTIVES WORK. The smaller the drivers, the MORE tractive effort you can get, which means more pulling power. This is because the smaller driver results in the main and connecting rods joining closer to the outer rim of the wheel, meaning more force is sent straight from the wheels to the rails. That's why many freight-oriented steam locomotive types, like the 2-8-0 Consolidation and 2-8-2 Mikado, had smaller drivers compared to ones like the 4-6-2 Pacific and 4-8-4 Northern. Passenger locomotives, meanwhile, had larger drivers, which allowed for a higher top speed since the rods would be farther away from the edge, resulting in the outer edge covering more distance, which means more speed. However, since the rods are farther away, that also means they can't deliver their power as well to the rails, meaning they're more prone to wheelspin or stalling out when starting heavy trains. All-in-all, they should've been worried if the Ace 3000 had LARGE driving wheels.
Class 556.0 (Štokr) of Czechoslovak State Railways had driving wheels only slightly larger, by 2 inches, than proposed for ACE 3000 and were as well designed for freight trains, but they are of traditional design (2-10-0)
Yo! Check out the sentinel alligator! Those things are so cool.
Steam turbines,indeed turbines in general, are a high-speed motor. The Marine turbines works so well because they tend to be coupled to gear boxes of some sort. That the turbine can stay at a fairly constant screaming speed and the prop shafts are speed up ,slowed down etc through gearing. It's also the only real way to reverse with a turbine.
I'd imagine that would be prohibitively heavy for a locomotive, wouldn't it?
I remember reading (on Wikipedia mind you, so take it with a block of salt, especially in light of yesterday's videos) that the industry was having trouble getting the gearboxes to work on the scales required for locomotives.
I have my question marks about that, given that cars and ships have gear transmissions, so something in the middle should be possible. Maybe it has something to do with materials? But I don't know enough about that to make a guess I would trust.
I do know that the timing is unfortunate. The teething issues would have been around when Diesels were giving credible alternatives, so the tech just didn't have the fair chance it needed I feel.
Turbo-Electric was likely the best way to go, and an engine was built as one, but I do know for a fact that Turbo-Electric ships have weight as a major disadvantage. Maybe that was the case here?
I like that "block of salt"!!
You know you may be right about materials/metallurgy not being up to snuff. With the automotive industry at the time,wasn't a lot of power to contend with,and back then in marine applications,they were still strongly in the over-engineer bigger is better school of thought.
But I think you hit it on the head with the fact that steam power was at it's peak,and diesel/electric power was running pretty proficiently,that there just wasn't a reason to pursue this technology any further.
Thanks for the reply!
Bonne Terre technically could be considered a locomotive that was not what it seemed 😅
Compresed air and steam are simular in how they work, so the concept isn't that silly
I feel like the velox could be simplified a lot. Might could have still been a good idea.
Yay the ace 3000
I was not expecting to learn there was an Air Hogs version of a “steam” engine.😮😂
The thumbnail is missing the word "More"
Fun fact: the Columbia Steam Motor Locomotive is the basis for Gator from Thomas & friends
Let's call the Velox Boiler engine:
"The Everything Locomotive"
Can you talk about the Union Pacific DDA40X?
That steam motor is formally known as gator from Thomas and Friends
I'm well aware that the Columbian steam motor is Gator
See,I wondered that!!!
15:39 are you telling me somebody TURBOCHARGED A FREAKING STEAM ENGINE ?!?! 😮😮😮
Dad humor, the amtrak acela train is Technically a steam train
Compressed air locomotives have the same issues as electric semi trucks
In my old collection of trains magazine the railroads talked about when we get Alaskan oil we do not have to worry about the Arabs this was one diesel was $0.06 a gallon. So much for that.
8:00 Well now I know what Gator is… somebody make an HO model of that I will buy it paint it.
A pity that they never figured out a way to circumvent the fuel consumption problems, when building steam turbine engines.
I'm sure with a few bouts of brainstorming and engineering, they could figure something out.
Buuuut, yeah, the biggest kicks to the head in that regard are money and resources, so that would've been harder to achieve. Either way, it seems more like potential that could've been better refined, but sadly wasn't given a chance to.
What's with prototype/experimental steam locomotives pretending to be diesels?
AAAAAAAAAGH WHY DID U HAVE TO INCLUDE THE GATOR!!!!!
The steam motor looks like Gator from the CGI Thomas & Friends.
Various railroads tried duplex Drive steam locomotive and they were all abysmal failures. People never learn.
I thought at first the 3rd one was going to be a tender modified to be an engine.
This Is gator from 🤨 thomas episodes when percy meet gator 8:47
I got ace 3000 in rolling line