Is Jesus "Unworthy of the Universe"? | Richard Dawkins vs John Lennox
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- čas přidán 5. 12. 2017
- Richard Dawkins and John Lennox debate: Why did God send his son to die? Watch the full debate: • Richard Dawkins vs Joh...
In Has Science Buried God?, two world-renown scientists go head to head at the Oxford Museum of Natural History, the famed site of the 1860 evolution debate between Huxley and Wilberforce, to discuss an issue the BBC calls "as fierce as ever."
Free study guide at fixed-point.org/ - Věda a technologie
3:45 where what Lennox says about Dawkins being a “person” instead of an observable thing.. Lennox touched Dawkin’s heart for a moment there.
This is a Christian CZcams channel you know
@@Philotheist777 yes, and Dawkins is an atheist we also know.
This was the coziest conversation I’ve seen between Dawkins and a Christian. Love it.
Because Dawkins respects John and his mind, unlike some people in the comments section who deviate themselves beyond demigodness of knowledge.
@Jaden Almeida I’ll have to check it out!
Yea John’s mind deserves respect
(Proverbs 30:7-9) "Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: {8} Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: {9} Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."
“Where is justice to be found?”
Not from religion that’s for sure
In the gospel of Jesus Christ ✝️
Read it.. 📙 No religion that's true! Be blessed ✝️
Faith is not based on evidence.
Knowing is based on evidence.
vano How do you know you'll be alive tomorrow? Why do you still make plans?
Just One Time I dont know if I will be alive tomorrow.
Why do you still make plans if you live forever anyway?
I should ask you not you me!
I have to plan because I have a limited live. I have to plan otherwise I wouldnt be able to do everything I want to do.
At the same time my actions and decisions and time have actually some value.
Imagine a person with cancer who has 3 weeks left to live and he wants to spend this time with you. What a great honor.
vano you've missed my point.
You have faith that you'll be alive tomorrow, because you're not ill and you've seen that people who are well usually don't die.
You have faith that you won't be killed by accident.
Just One Time no you completely missed the point.
I know I wont just randomly die for no reason based on the evidence that people dont die for no reason.
So based on evidence I know I will be alive tomorrow if I dont get killed by someone or something.
When we prove that 1+2=3 then we dont use the word believe but we say we know 1+2=3
But since logic is man made and we dont know anything for 100% we theoretically cant distinguish between knowing and believing.
But it doesnt matter if 1+2=3 is right it just matters that we can make reliable predictions using this logic.
In science we try to model nature as good as we can.
Faith, by definition, is assuming something without evidence. Look into a dictionary.
I have faith that I will be alive tomorrow not based on evidence but on the blind assumption that I wont get killed by someone or something.
Because I know I will be alive based on the evidence that people who dont get killed are still alive.
Faith is not based on evidence.
Knowing is based on evidence
vano oh but healthy people do randomly die too. Unfortunately, I've seen it happen before. We all hope to be alive even though we know death could happen at anytime... the faith part comes in when we still continue to plan for the future.
Faith = hope (and believing that what you hoped for will happen).
When it comes to maths, we can agree as everyone gets the same answer because it is objective and we all agree on the methods used.
Concepts like what is genuine faith, does God exist, will I live tomorrow, etc. is subjective, so it's not like 1+2 which will *always* equal 3.
3:43 "I can look at you through a uh.. uh... ah.. telescope..."
How far away would Dawkins have to be for this exam?
Your English is diabolical 😂😂
😢
@skunk12 if I was as dumb as you ide kill myself 😆😆
They have mad respect for each other.
What's John on about?
That's actually a good point. Why not just forgive the sins without Christ sacrificing himself?
Dawkins said why did you bring that argument up then. Lennox didn't bring it up as evidence to prove it's true, he brought it up to explain why it happened after Dawkins' earlier objection
Dawkins doesn't like it when someone brings up a relevant point. He thinks we're just products of chemicals in the brain reacting to lunch. Then shut up Dawkins if your thoughts are irrelevant. Eat something different and you'll think differently.
Naturalism eats itself like cancer. It cannot be true. Atheism is its cold. Therefore atheism is a DOA idea.
we have the choice to harden our hearts or to respond to his call
This a Christian CZcams channel you know.
Hard heartedness is a virtue.
Rubbish
@@blorkpovud1576
Hard heartedness is someone who believes a lie to be true even with all the scientific knowledge proving God is not real.
True
Mr Lennox should first explain what is ultimate justice and what does he need it for, and why simple justice won't fit him well.
Do you want an answer?
Is it the ultimate answer?
Do you want an apple?
Is it an ultimate apple?
God bless you both.
What God
Question dodging 100%
Who?
I only read the title in my one question is where do they get "worth" or value claims from? oh. my world view which they always steal to try to discredit
This is very interesting; hearing both sides of such such a profound debate.
God is good an Greatly to be praised
Glad you are happy to be a slave
Christians are not slaves, they are sons and daughters of God.
@@NNiicckk69 free actually
These are some incredibly intelligent dudes. I side with Dawkins on my beliefs but I do love the way Lennox articulates his arguments.
@@dc56789 To be fair, I'm not sure either side presented many, if any actual facts in this particular part of the debate. The argument in this clip was more of a philosophical one.
@@dc56789 but there are though!, John Lennox has got it so right;
@@dc56789 nope. He most certainly can’t and neither can anyone else.
At 4:08 did he say "If" there is a God? I thought his whole argument was that there was a God? But now he's saying "if"...lol
What?
@@eamonhanka Which part didn't you understand?
Hey Dawkins, here's a question for ya, what are the odds that a whirlwind in the sky would whirl and whirl at the speed of light and assemble clouds in the sky to spell, "hello Richard nice suit!" For exactly 19.32 seconds before erupting into a loud laughter??
God show to the world through His Son Jesus Christ the most amazing way to love someone , how big is the love of Our God .
Even though I'm not a Christian but I'm always stand by the peoples who defending God all the way by the means they understand . I know people of God looks at our world as real and not as joke .
If you are not a disciple of Christ, a Christian, you will pay for your own sins and spend eternity in hell.
ive never heard the he came as a person argument and its not so bad.
curious as to why a decent point is under used...maybe im just not hip to faith talking points like that or something
All hate comment: y'all need Jesus!
I love listening scientists who are also apologists.
How can the person who created the universe and set it in place, not be worthy of it? If you knew anything about the Bible, you would know that all these events and happenings were according to the counsels and foreknowledge of God, long before the worlds were formed or man sinned.
At 0:47 "This is a moral universe". 🤔 Hmmmmmm.... let me think.
when you don't understand ask questions but not weird comments...
Too bad! Loved that part
my boy john, love ya
how on earth can Dawkins possibly make the claim that he knows more than God (by claiming God was wrong in doing things the way he did) ............ Dawkins knows very little about spirituality .......... it is way out of his field
Because for one thing the Jesus story was invented by men long after Jesus was dead. No one at the time thought he was the son of god oe born of a virgin. It was a later Christian construct to Justify why this random peasant who was apparently the Messiah didnt actually fit any of the criteria to be the Messiah. So inherently it has flaws in the story and in the logic. They say Jesus needed to die for me to be forgiven becaus its a sacrifice. Im sorry but; a sacrifice for who? Certainly not me. Some guy dying 2000 years ago who I never met and know very little about that can be conclusively proven is not a sacrifice for me. So really the whole thing of him dying for humanity makes very little sense because it didnt change humanitt at all. So why are we suddenly eligible for forgiveness?
If your brain was made of cotton there wouldn't be enough to make a butterfly a pair of boxer shorts
Dawkins is a legend. He shouldn’t debate irrational, delusional egg heads like this though. It’s just giving them a platform to spew their religious nonsense.
Belief doesn’t make any demands for evidence, because that would spell its demise.
Best line was " too bad that doesn't make it true just becuase God make us feel good"
+mohamad abdallah
John Lennox wasn't even making that point. He was saying that Richard has intuitions that make him feel that something is morally right or wrong but Richard has no rational basis for justifying why he feels a particular way towards that action. Lennox said he has that rational basis because he has a worldview on which to explain those intuitions. Dawkins' does not. Dawkins' worldview in other words has an ammoral basis for judging any action as right or wrong. Lennox says that therefore BECAUSE of his worldview on which to explain his intuitions, he therefore feels fulfilled in knowing that the fundamental question is answered. Lennox says that a God belief explains the unanswered questions which AS A RESULT makes him feel fulfilled. Dawkins has it wrong by assuming the other way around: that feeling good from believing in God is the basis for believing it, which is the exact opposite of what Lennox is saying.
@@josephthomasmusic John Lennox was talking in an emotional way so far from being pragmatic. The reality is that morality was always a social construct and that is why every religion has its own moral code different from the other which contradicts the fact that God instilled a universal moral law and many things that you find immoral like slavery was justified by religion and many things that you find moral like respecting all religions and opinions is actually born form the enlightment age in Europe
Again an emotional way of talking is not the same as an appeal to emotion, especially if you are making logical connections and giving logical reasons to your points. An appeal to emotion is when you use ONLY your emotions to justify the whole of your case and that's a huge difference. What evidence do you have that morality was always a social construct? Does the fact that some religious people use their religion to justify slavery therefore make said religions false? What is the relevance of the "respecting all religions" part to the question of which worldview is true?
@@josephthomasmusic appealing to emotion is exactly what lennox is doing he is literary seeing that there has to be God for ultimate justice and that criminals who run away from this life will never suffrer afterlife punishment. John lennox is always saying I beleive and I have faith in but who actually cares about what he beleives we won't to know what is sceintifically true and he can't give an obvious anwser.
@@mohamadabdallah1379
Again John Lennox is referring to the innate emotional reaction that ALL humans have towards particular actions such as rape or murder. Naturally, you demand justice because you think someone did WRONG. On atheism, there is no logical basis on which to make ANY moral affirmations of ANY kind. That's Lennox's point. That's not an appeal to emotion. That's an appeal to logic and reason. Some worldviews have a logical basis for morality whereas others don't. Religions like Christianity do whereas atheism doesn't. Morality on atheisn is just brain chemicals reacting. The minute you say that something is wrong you're saying you're brain chemicals override another's brain chemicals.
In regards to your comments on a "scientific truth", is science the only valid way of ascertaining truth about the universe?
Lennox, another believer with another personal definition of a God. 😆
Life after life, By Raymond Moody
Or Embraced by light
Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
It would be so aquard to be in an elevator with Dawkins
He's such a strange person
No he isn't, he is an intelligent nice man :)
Awkward*. I don’t think you would enjoy being in an elevator with someone so intelligent because you would feel very, very stupid.
@@rvmm2 Idk about that, you may think him correct, and that's okay, but he seems perpetually bitter and unhappy. I personally would not like to be in his company.
He didn't just give up His life and let Himself be tortured just for sin. He did it also to show us His eternal love for us!!
What sacrifice when you could never really die .... this is melancholy rubbish some type of iinternal desire to be cradled like a infant in a womb because the world's complexities cannot be ready explained in a instant so now let's create a invisible daddy whom sacrifices his spirit son trapped in flesh for the transgressions of a world that spirit daddy created in the first place . 🤔🧐😖
@@youx457 The original law, the 10 commandments, were given to the Israelites not to make them holy but to show them how wicked they were - immoral, vengeful, performing countless sacrifices, idol worshipping and all round wicked. It showed that no man was worthy of righteousness through their deeds because their hearts were sinful. So God came as the final sacrifice to end all sacrifices. He showed the world how wicked it was; that it would torture and kill a man who did nothing but heal, save and preach love.
And because we as sinful people by nature (because we live in a corrupt and cursed world) couldn't fulfil the law, Christ took our sins for us. He died for us...He took our curses, our sins and paid our debt. And thus ended the original covenant with God and began the new one that whoever in their hearts believes in Jesus and that He rose from them dead and profess it, shall be saved. Saved for the new world, the coming kingdom.
I was a dogmatic atheist that actually openly debated people who had faith. I realized at some point there must be more to life...there's no way we are just random accidents of chemical concoctions. God's fingerprint is found in all His creations even as far as the golden ratio...
So I began seeking the Truth and when you earnestly seek the Truth, God will come to you. He will save you. He heals all things....
But like a doctor who heals patients, God heals through patience. Have faith my friend, keep seeking, keep calling out to Jesus. Pray whenever you can (prayer has to be said outloud). Pray for His wisdom, pray for revelations and not information.
It's a funny world this one...backwards in every way.
We have pharma which makes people sick for money, or the farmer which makes people healthy.
Profit for financial gain and wordly power or prophet for spiritual rejuvenation and salvation.
We have prey which are hunted or we pray and are saved.
There is big pharma who prey on the sick for profit, or the Creator, our Father and His farmers that pray in spirit (words) and prophet.
Recognise spirit just means the unseen so it means conciousness, words, emotions. When do we feel most alive? When we're happy, filled with joy and in love. You can't buy these things and yet they are the most precious and can instill in you the energy to run up mountains and push beyond limits!
It's important to realize all the thoughts in your head are not your own either. Intuition is God's frequency; it runs on faith. Anxiety is the devils; it pushes fear. Any doubt or fear in your head is just your brain picking up/recieving the whisper of demons turning you away from the light. The brain operates as an antenna, picking up on different frequencies. Tune into the frequency of God, which is Love, which is His will...which is His word.
We feed our fleshly bodies 3x a day lets say. Give it fuel to grow. Whatever enters our eyes and ears (gateway to the soul) fills our hearts which is the home of our spirit and soul. Read the word (new testament and proverbs are best) more and more and pray more often; grow your spiritual body. I promise you God will come to you, the fact that you're already here is proof the Spirit is guiding you.
In Jesus name, God bless you 🙌
Having someone killed, whether it is yourself, your son or a stranger, is a sick way of showing love. And I would be disgusted if anyone would attempt such a "loving gesture" for my sake, or anyone else's.
@@mazemir1 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
It isn't sacrificing someone else, it's sacrificing the self, God sacrificing Himself for us. There was a bullet coming right at us and God dived infront, taking it for us.
This may not read all or make sense to someone who has no experience of the Spirit, I'm not claiming that's you but it's a challenging concept that's really been muddied by all the deliberate deception at the hands of media and corrupt organisations that have tried to sour the word of God. The truth that you're loved beyond imagination, that you're created with purpose and passion and that there's nothing to fear with God. His gifts are freely given as long as we recognise that Jesus Christ is our redeemer, that did what none of us could do, for us, out of love. Saved by His grace 🙌
@@DylanIsArchAngel God fired the bullet and then asks you to praise him and live according to his words for shopping it again.
Fairness and justice mean very different things in all parts of the world, society and differ throughout time. This man seems to have no awareness of this. And at each time and place those people consider their "very differing" ideas of fairness and justice to be correct.
We spent endless resources to prove, or at least up to certain extent, to prove that string theory wasn’t practically possible ever to be a universal theory of everything. It was ok to waste such resources on such a theory. And yet, we are so reluctant and stingy on spending resources to investigate the supernatural world.
Well it's not real, that's why we don't waste money on it.
But hey, plenty of hillbillies are running around abandoned properties doing tons of research.
Because it only exists when you think of it
Dawkins is awesome
There was a trucking company some time back that gave their employees a lie detector test when that was legal. One of the questions asked was whether that person believed in God. Each time a self-professed atheist said no the test revealed deception.
There is the proof everybody was looking for!!
Wtf is this nonsense 😂😂😂 what point are you even making? All atheists are secretly theists? Pahahahahahaha
Justice, mercy, love and forgiveness all converge with Jesus on the cross of Calvary. Lennox and Dawkins I love their commitment to science, truth, philosophy and theology in Lennox specifically. There is overwhelming evidence for the Christian faith, any true seeker would see this as being true. 😊✌️ If only the justice systems of this world understood God's justice, his mercy, his love, his forgiveness.
Who said that there should be ultimate justice?
Consciousness itself invokes it.
@@andsalomoni in other words ... wishful thinking
@@chrisrea6841 Just like objective knowledge.
Two very eloquent and informed men. Good respectful debate.
Life is unfair if there is no god, therefore god.
I mean does that guy really believe that?
I think he means that life would be meaningless without the presence of God.
Did this guy just say Faith is based on evidence. Yikes.
The meaning of the life is that it is without meaning . Life is just an adventure , no meaning for existing of god and no meaning for an other life
there's hope in God ❤
There's hope in Zeus and Gandalf too 😂
@@asecretturning fr
@@asecretturning Zues is created by humans cause his personality is human same with Gandalf. God is not and no humans in history can ever create God's perfect holy moral personality not even through correction or translation. That's the fact.
@@GI876758 Oh, so other gods are man-made, but not YOURS, yours is the real one.
@@GI876758 😂😂 it doesn't matter because god doesn't give a fuck about this world. and every religion say that it has evidence but not proved yet.
now i finally knew why they said john lennox is simply one of the best apologists
Isaiah 55:8-9
Such a bizarre thought.
when in doubt blame Darwin
evertime atheism unmasks itself in discussions like these - what is left of it is the epitome of stupidity, emptiness and darkness wrapped up in intellectual thuggery.
whiteliketar Never heard something more hypocritical.
Arikm7 lol
whiteliketar emptiness and darkness maybe, stupidity never. On the other hand...
Reno Kreuz Yes stupidity. Only a fool says there is no God. Because it is contrary to all knowledge for one to say that. Everyone believes in God. Those who say they don't merely suppress the truth in their unrightousness.
Spencer Reborngess oh wow thanks for being an example to prove my point
Nothing matters but the weekend...
Maybe there is no justice.
no one can know *YESHUA* by hearing *GOSPEL* but also you have to invite him in your heart, ask for *PROMISED GIFT A HELPER* only people in *Christ or new to Christ* can understand me
Lennox keep changing his questions. well done Richard 👏
Hang on. So injustice is defined here as people less fortunate than either man because they don't live in Oxford and have relative comfort? Then why doesn't the Church rectify that by sharing their wealth with the less fortunate?
The church does charity work. I don't know what you're talking about.
Faith must be based on reason. If it has no basis in logic and evidence then it is not faith but mere baseless assumption or wishful thinking.
The tragic paradox of being human in one video. The more we approach the goal - the hegemony of love and justice in a morally ordered universe - the more we become slipshod in the light of intellectual honesty. And the more intellectually honest we become, the closer we get to the only truth that matters to us - that we are insignificant bio-robots living on a cold, empty physical universe that churns out suffering without end for no good reason and offers absolutely no hope.
How I pray for nothingness.
Then try Zen Buddhism. It says that the essence of reality is nothingness.
No, God is the truth ✝️
There cant be ultimate justice without the spagetti monster!
vano doesn’t matter what you call God
Sure buddy. Your god is not Just or Righteous.
Your god has done nothing for anyone because your god is the Atheistic fantasy and mockery of who they see God as.
vano
nah
vano be very careful!
Saint Brendan now you know how I feel about this bearded burning bush in the sky haha
If he is athiest why does he worry Christians so much all the time
Your English is absolutely disgraceful 😂😂
Bcoz religion controls, politics,which food to eat, which clothes to wear, etc & it gets legislated in laws. That's why dawkins have objections against. Atheist don't give a flying fck what u belei unless it has some influence over things everyone has in common.
If faith was really based on evidence it would be called science.
Faith is based on undoubtable self-evidence to one's consciousness.
Study the Bible from beginning to end without skipping, and your questions will be answered. God bless. Shalom
I did that, and I can never follow it again
Did you read it with a proud heart? Read it with a humble heart. Study it thoroughly.
@@Nameless-pt6oj you shouldn’t come in with any preconceived notions. Coming in with a “humble heart” would bring in bias towards the subject and shouldn’t take place in scholarly research
I didn’t say you read it with a proud heart, I asked you if you did. You have to be open minded when you read the Bible. Having a humble heart doesn’t bring bias, that’s wrong.
"Faith is based on evidence" >> No. The truth is: Majority of religious believers just merely believe with their faith simply just because they just need some kind of HOPE, even if it's a LIE. it is a sad & depressing fact & reality. "Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Ohh! You dropped a quote! How quaint! Now go read all the pro Christian quotes from the founding fathers of America and the forerunners of modern science. : )
Niki Wonoto - 'sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed'. No sir you are wrong. Saving Faith in the individual cannot be proven or disproved. Nevertheless, it is completely real to the person who has that faith in God, because God makes Himself known to those individuals in a real way which only they experience.
The same statement can be said about those who reject faith in God, especially the Christian faith. The Bible teachers that we are all sinners by nature and by practice. Without faith in God through the Lord Jesus Christ you will die in your sins and be lost for all eternity. The Bible also teaches that after death is the judgement. There is a resurrection unto judgement for people like yourself who have rejected God in their mind and rejected His offer of mercy and salvation through Jesus Christ. This cannot be avoided. That is YOUR 'illusion destroyed' which says that when you die 'that is it over'. I am afraid not. You will have a confrontation with Jesus Christ one way or the other. Either by faith now for the forgiveness of your sins and to receive eternal life in Him, or else as your Judge at the great white throne of judgement followed by the Lake of Fire for ever.
Right back at you, mate!
Aap Dromedaris it’s apparently not truth except for what is written that agrees with your worldview. So, right back at ya! What I am so tired of is Atheistic minds saturating the internet with provocative rubbish like the God Delusion. There is not one ounce of evidence that proves God’s non-existence. Evolution? It proves absolutely nothing. Evolution remains to be just a theory. It’s seen as truth because it’s the best man can come up with. God is so much bigger and intricate.
Aap Dromedaris do you see the irony in your comment? This is what Atheists have been portraying for as long as I can remember. ...and as for Richard Dawkins, well he’s the know-it-all of our generation. Rich Dawkins Vs God’s Word. Just because he doesn’t understand something, he claims it’s wrong. ‘Jesus on the Cross’...’Surely God could have thought up something better than that.’, he says. He could be a really nice fellow... but he has no idea who he’s dealing with. He’s got guts. I’ll give him that.
"Peter replied, repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).
John Lennox's belief is reinforced of his inability to accept the tragic truth of this reality. This existence is unfair.
Honestly, I lost count of the number of logical fallacies John Lennox was using to justify the litany of assertions he was going through. Much respect to Richard for being so patient with this man.
alicantino11 what patience, if you've ever asked a question to professor Dawkins he can at times shut you down without given an answer or a substantive argument, he is no Hitch.
Your capacity for counting must be pretty pitiful.
Aniket Mukherjee It depends on the question of course, but generally if you're being stupid then yes he can be like that. Most times he's actually quite patient and perfectly willing to converse with people.
Ludwig Wittgenduck I suggest educating yourself on what logical fallacies are and listen to a ton of examples of them. Then, you'll be able to learn how to count too...
alicantino11 I was asking him about his view that all live beings having the same DNA makeup but had found certain evidence to the contrary with the help of other evolutionary biologists who were kind enough to show & explain in detail their research. When I told them about the incident they told me you shouldn't have as he is different in public life but a completely different person when a person is speaking to him one on one especially during research, all in all not a nice man you'd do well to away from him in general but in a public sphere, he can be a good conversationalist as well as good company.
justice was given by God it is a God concept Darwin just said he who is the fittest survives no moral compass in evolution
In life we are governed by rules and laws of man, would not the creator of man give rules ?, and if they are broken he would set the penalty ,he said the soul that sin's shall surly die , as the greatest show of love for man he gave the most precious thing he has , his son so that we might live ,as Jesus said " there is no greater love than a man give his life for his friend " he calls us friends ,just how amazing is that don't throw it back in his face he is your only hope ...
Faith is based on evidence? What evidence?
John Lennox is absolutely brilliant.
Nah he really isn’t. None of his points made any sense. he’s delusional as is anyone else who believes in supernatural bollocks. Science always always comes out on top because their findings are based on research and ultimately evidence. Faith fails miserably every time because there’s absolutely no evidence to support the pathetic theory.
@@Knightley79 Science itself provides some of the best evidence there is for God (ex: fine tuning of the universe). There is no conflict between science and God. Science is simply the study of the mechanisms of nature. That in no way conflicts with God as the agent that brought nature about. Its like saying because you understand the engineering of how an automobile works that somehow proves that Henry Ford doesn't exist and was in no way involved in bringing about the automobile. Henry Ford is the agent that made it happen. Science just explains how it works. Look back to the scientific revolution back in the 1600's. It was basically driven by Christians who believed in a creator God. In no way has Christianity conflicted with science, inf act, it was the Christian world view that prompted the scientific revolution based on the believe that since the world was created by God, it must be orderly and based on scientific laws that are knowable as opposed to random chaos. In atheist countries, on the other hand, we didn't see the same level of scientific advancement.
@@elkhuntr2816 you must be out of your mind! Science and rational argument are in no way compatible with any religion. Unfortunately, some people will always believe it because there is no way of disproving the existence of anything such as a flying pig or Father Christmas. What we can do is look at facts based on research and evidence, something that religion is unable to do because there simply isn’t any evidence at all. None. Not a single shred. Find me some and I’ll believe it! But please don’t quote any scripture, I’ve just eaten!
@@Knightley79 Well if you can't provide positive evidence against a flying pig or father christmas, I am not sure how effective your "facts based on research and evidence" is. There is plenty of evidence supporting the existence of the God of the bible, much of that evidence coming from science, some from history. Look into the argument based on the fine tuning of the universe. Look at the historical evidence of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Just make sure you haven't eaten first.
@@Knightley79 you do not need to look at the bible to see
that Jesus is real. And if he is real then it should make you
want to look at the bible.
the answer to the last question is an infinite fantasy, yes u need to have evidence of god through the form of a person like jesus and stuff, but that still doesn't prove its existence or so, making jesus infinitely unworthy, it all goes down to proof here, for all we know john lennox could easily fall for yugioh
Morality is Knowing and doing what YOU know is RIGHT. Religion is not knowing and doing .....what you've been told is RIGHT , no matter what YOU know is RIGHT...
no ultimate justice is atheism! Great point
No justice but the justice we create.
To answer Mr. Dawkins’ question “Why did God have to get Himself killed to take away the sins of the earth, couldn’t He have just forgiven them, since He’s the judge after all?”
God is morally perfect, and He is just. In any judicial system, crime incurs punishment, that is the very meaning of justice. Suppose a man was convicted for the murder of a family, and he stands before the court. Nobody would say “why doesn’t the judge just forgive the man, since as judge he/she possesses the authority to do so.” That would be unjust, and we all know that because we all have morality; we know that the murderer must be punished. It is the same with human sin. God is a just Judge, and He sees our sin, and He knows that our sin requires a punishment, otherwise He would not be just. BUT, the Good News of the Gospel is that God is not only just, but He is also full of mercy and steadfast love. He knows He must punish sin, but instead of punishing us, He lays the punishment upon His Son. Jesus was handed over and died a criminal’s death, so that the eternal weight of our sin would be laid on Him, effectively Jesus dying in our place. In this way, God was able to punish sin, thereby remaining just, but He also made a way for us to be with Him, by laying the punishment on His Son instead of us. That is the Good News ❤️.
Thats where this whole thing throws up a Question for me. To take your example. Imagine if someone killed your Son and you would stand in the Court where he would stay in Front of the Judge. You would want him to be punished, additionally, if it would be me whos Son would have been murdered i would want the murderer to understand that he did a wrong thing. You and i would never want to see another dude being punished for the murder. You would want the original murderer to be Jailed, beaten or killed. So why the hell should Jesus, an innocent Man, be punished for something he didnt comitt? Why is that Justice? I dont want Jesus to be tortured because there where people in my life who had let me suffered. I want these guys to be punished. The justice in the sacrefice of Jesus is not a good Justice. Because it prevents people from getting what they deserve. Some people really do deserve to burn some time in hell. Most people dont. And to be honest, regardless of how much of a Monster you are...Eternal Hell? Really? Where the fuck is love there? What if the dude wants to say Sorry after burning for 280 years. Who knows.
@ Dawkins quotation during his debate with John Lennox at the University of Oxford...
“The ‘creator of the universe’ couldn’t think of a better way to rid the world of sin than to come to this little speck of cosmic dust and have himself tortured and executed so he could forgive himself?"
John Lennox said in rebuttal, "Because we live in a moral universe Richard and just forgiving doesn't make sense."
****************************************
Firstly, this is under the assumption that this "little speck of cosmic dust" is so insignificant that it's beneath God to come here of all places to do this great sacrifice.
Arthur C. Clarke once said, "We are either alone in the universe or we are not: both prospects are terrifying," and it's been decades since Carl Sagan speculated all that was necessary for life was three things. This train of thought initially made scientists assume billions of planets were housing life.
Since then we have discovered over 250 things are necessary for life. With every passing year we discover a new intangible to be added to the recipe for life, and thus decreases the chances. At present less than 4,000 planets and moons are possible candidates for life, and if a handful more things are discovered for life to be necessary that number will drop down to our single, solitary planet. So this "speck of cosmic dust", indeed, is more fantastic than Dawkins could imagine.
Secondly, this notion of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins throughout the universe is somehow "petty" in Dawkins estimation... Now if you are a staunch atheist and believe that human beings are of no more consequence and value than slime mold, then of course in your mind a sacrifice for the whole of humanity is going to seem insignificant.
It also doesn't help matters when you are under the assumption that this act of love and mercy could have been done differently. It's like asking the question, "Could God have made a world better than this?", because it's essentially a non-question BECAUSE this is the only world that we reside and hypothetical world's don't help find solutions for the reality that exists around us. However, let's go that route and answer it, "Yes God could have created such a world where there was no evil, no sins, no ills, no injustices: and so can we, and it's automata!"
Imagine a world where every thought, word, action could be stopped or curbed. Is that really living? Is that really the actions of a loving God to interfere at every moment and turn in everyone's life? No. Ultimate no. That is a physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual confinement and rape of a human being. It's also not genuine or true. We can program a machine to say, "I love you," and to do no harm towards none and say, "Thank you," and be as helpful and generous as possible: but where is the choices? Where is the humanity in that? There is none.
So when Dawkins says, "couldn't think of a better way," what else but a free given gift from God for you to personally choose or turn away can be the only solution?
Thirdly, the statement of "to forgive Himself", assumes God is somehow accountable and to be blamed for the sins of the universe... This of course wouldn't make sense if you do not understand what is God's attributes: that God Himself is all that is good, true and love and everything outside of Him isn't...
God cannot condone, participate and uphold sin and evil and lies and corruption, etc... He cannot go against His own laws, conscience, and essence... But since He created a universe that has free will and choice to do good or evil, to live in the truth or to live by falsehoods, etc... The only way true forgiveness could EVER be extended to those (everyone) who are born with sin upon them is for a PERFECT being to take upon Himself the sins of the universe, so that we don't have to.
That's extremely hard for a man like Richard Dawkins to believe because, in his view, the universe is as you would expect: cruel, unjust, uncaring, and without rhyme or reason, so where could perfection be? But despite his pessimistic worldview, we also see in our universe love and care and support and encouragement and patience and understanding and faith in one another and whatever may come. These things his atheism cannot answer or account for, as he's been quoted as saying:
"Contrary to popular belief, universal love and care cannot be explained by natural selection," and yet it exists. So ask yourself, "What then, does make sense?" and I would like for you to think on that longly and deeply for nothing else but a loving God who sacrificed His only begotten Son could make sense of it all.
The denial of the existence on Jesus Christ on this thread alone, reinforces for me that the Universe, let alone the World, is truly fcuked up!
The evidence is that it's written in the a Bible and God works in mysterious ways. 2 favourite quotes/answers by believers.
I have watch the whole debate and i think Lennox arguments appeal on human emotion while Dawkins arguments appeal more on logic and reason. If someone argues using the bible it will be very easy to explain everything. I don't believe in the bible. If debate will be done on the legitimacy of the bible, it will come out that thebible is obviously not true. You can make any kind of arguments to prove god but to counter that, you just ask how did you know that? Do you have evidence for that?
Answer: you just have to have faith.
In this debate it is obvious that Lennox is arguing for the god of gaps.
Explain how he is arguing for the God of the gaps? You don't understand what that means.
There have been many who try to prove scripture wrong but they either end up failing and remaining in their delusions or failing and becoming Christians.
V R_46
Not even close. There's a big difference between talking about emotions and using them as your basis for your belief. Lennox was using the very emotions that Dawkins was using in the debate (ex: it sounds petty, it's not nice to think we're part of a universe that doesn't care about us, etc) to make the point that Dawkins can't even make those emotional judgements with his atheistic worldview as a basis for explaining them. Lennox does have that basis because it provides him with a rational and moral basis on which to explain those feelings and intuitions. Atheism doesn't offer such a basis, so its basis is ammoral. Lennox is NOT appealing to emotion as his basis. He is saying that emotions are not logically justified on atheism and that's a HUGE difference.
@@josephthomasmusic except that dawkins also said that we make our own purpose in this universe. That we dont need some god to tell us what is good or bad and what to do. We find our own happiness in life. It is true science cannot answer to our feeling it can only tell us about the how. Do you mean you will base reality on what you feel?
@@josephthomasmusic how can you say that emotions are not logically justified on atheism and where do you think morality comes from?
@@vr_4691
No offense intended, but find your response to be very ironic. That very point you're giving me where Dawkins said we don't need God to find out what is moral or have purpose in life is the very thing that Dawkins himself admits is illogical. Why? Because he openly admits that using God is a logical basis to rationalise morality. That is why he said elsewhere in one of his books that, "The only way for our point to stand as atheists is to deny the existence of evil." So when he says we don't need God, he is admitting that he would rather live life having an illogical basis for morality than accept that God exists. What's even more ironic is that you quoted Nietzsche who struggled with the very same issue that Dawkins is forced to face. In fact, that very same struggle is what led Nietzsche to spend the last few years of his life insane. So your quoting Nietzsche is a completely moot point. My point is that at the end of the day, it's really not the theistic position that bases its reasons for believing on emotion. It's the atheistic worldview that is an appeal to emotion. Dawkins is determined that no matter what a theist says he will still remain a committed atheist. That is why Ravi Zacharias once said that if you're an atheist, it is not for intellectual reasons but for moral reasons.
3:36, loved that part. Look at dawkins reaction. He knows in his heart that what lennox is saying is true
If I made dragonball z into a religion in 3,000 years everybody will believe goku is a god. And goku has better feats than jesus. Especially since the Jews reject the existence of Jesus and claim he is not a real prophet but apostate.
Phillip Abreo that’s just a another level of stupidity and ignorance 🤦♂️🤦♂️😂
CK_Banana_ Noob ah yes ofcourse. He literally just stated “goku has better features than the all-powerful, all knowing, omnipresent God”.
@@MacCadalso omnipresent just means he lets 5 million Christian children die. And several belivers in my and or your family.
@@Philotheist777 uhh just so you know Goku is not Japanese but an inspired version of Sun WuKong from ancient Chinese mythology
God doesnt have to reveal himself in a way that we can understand. God is god. He can make us understand anyway.
I wish I was smart enough to believe in reality instead of what everyone else wants to believe
John Lennox is so eloquent and patient.
Yes he is. I think God is also so very patient with us. He is neither bothered nor annoyed by atheist and His love extends even to His enemies.
Bob Hawkins -
*His love extends even to His enemies.*
Is that why he created Satan and the angels that followed him to do what they did? by doing so, God ended up sending all of those being to hell. If God can't even love His creation, how in the world can you even begin to think he loves His enemies. No serious person can believe these things.
John Lennox: "Is there an ultimate justice?" Possibly accidental, unintended, unequally shared natural type suffering?...Balancing scales cannot be made.
Child Boo - Haven't you ever heard the saying "If you truly love someone (when they don't want to be with you anymore), you'd let them go." Hell is separation from God. God love's His creation enough to let his creation either chose to be with him or not. You have that choice. That's true free will. If you don't want to be with him in heaven then you can choose to be apart from him in hell. To me none of that seems irrational or unloving and yes as a serious person I can believe it. BTW hell and "the Lake of Fire" are two separate things. I love DBZ BTW.
Jonathan Johnson your Catholic take is no better than the general Protestant one. A merciful God doesn't force any kind of eternity on you.
If the only choice other than Eternal Heaven, is eternal existence of another state, this is coersion.
Free will? John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you."
Romans 8:20 "And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified."
If the consequences of free will is sin, then you will lose your free will in the Christian afterlife.
Yahweh gets pardoned and not justified for requiring a scale or state of imperfection to define His righteousness.
Furthermore, He doesn't even have to take credit for the existence of sin. Monotheistic?
Sins don't bare responsibility for they are absolved from you. They are only the result of the imperfection you have no choice in, and is what you are really repenting for.
Specific belief is required as well, regardless of moral character.
If all christian atheist debates were like this...
Faith is the opossite of evidence
waterglass21 *"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."* Hebrews 11:1
I wonder why Richard Dawkins (and all other "non-believers') doesn't think the Bible is speaking to them?
In what way speaking to them? I’m an atheist and brought up in a Christian family and it never ever spoke to me other than it’s clearly a load of bollocks. Fiction. Not real.
@@Knightley79 It speak to readers.
If jesus is the answer, it must’ve been a stupid question.
Yeah, if the question is you, or me, or anyone He loves.
1Corinthians 1:18 go and understand that 🧐
Arikm7 sure. Give some. Please enlighten us why you think he is like that
Arikm7 yes I have read them many times. Please enlighten us on how evil and vile he was because I am genuinely intrigued as to how you came to that interpretation.
setmedic Atheists are the stupid ones offering no answers for questions they are completely incapable of answering themselves....even though they are blind and deaf.
Lennox: "This is a moral universe Richard (patronising him by saying his name) and just forgiving doesn't make sense. God sends his son into the world to provide forgiveness and to provide a basis on which he can justly bring forgiveness to me"
What nonsense, just forgiving would make much more sense than sending down your own son to be tortured then die. Then if you believe that to be the case you are saved and go to heaven whereas if you don't you rot in hell for ever. That makes absolutely no sense at all unless you are an indoctrinated Christian like Lennox. By the way Gods can't have sons as this preassumes some kind of sexuality. In fact this is simply good old-fashioned misogyny in which Christianity is steeped.
Lennox: "in your world where is justice to be found? "My question is, is there any ultimate justice? " I find myself in a world which is a broken world, where there is massive injustice. If there is no God then there is no ultimate justice"
All this talk of a broken world - this is just biblical-type phrasing and is nonsense. The world is not broken but is as it always has been - evolving life forms - plants and animals fighting for survival and domination over each other. Lexxox's question regarding "ultimate justice" assumes that there must be some "ultimate justice" when in fact "ultimate justice" is simply a romantic/idealistic concept that is as ridiculous as "ultimate fairness". We know that the world is clearly not fair. People are born with physical and mental defects and people are randomly struck down by terrible illnesses and accidents, irrespective of their religion or how "good" they are, so there is clearly no fairness in life. Does this then bode well for their being some kind of "ultimate justice"? Not in reality but only in Lennox's mind to make him and others like him feel better. Lennox is meant to be an intelligent scholar - he's more like the village idiot.
4:15 "He has taken the initiative in getting to know us"... Why would "god" need to get to know us, if he made us, in every subatomic aspect imaginable !?!
It would make more sense for me to draw a picture on a piece of paper with a pen, and get to know it, because at least I can say, maybe I don't know what the paper is made of or how exactly it's made, or what the material that makes the paper is made of and how exactly is it made, what is the ink made of and what is that made of.
But if you are the creator of everything and everything that makes everything, why would you need to get to know it!?!
Because humans are not just an objects. We are person. God is the person. God is love. And love is the relationship between persons.
Thank you John.
Its a Christian CZcams channel 😅😅
@@Philotheist777 So, what?
John got destroyed what 😂😂😂 he literally talks pure waffles
Sounds like Dawkins is really just Nothing .
Fix ur ears maybe
Bless you John, fight the good fight
God manifested himself this way (not Richard Hawkins way) so that we would not take for granted forgiveness and salvation and would think twice before committing immoral acts.
Beavis: -He said erection, hhhahe
"If there is no God then there is no ultimate justice". That's no arguement. You're just saying "I want to punish bad people thus god exists". And the "ultimate justice" Lenoxx refers to is *eternal torture* . What finite crime is worth infinite punishment? There's also the fact that most of these people receiving "ultimate justice" will be people who simply didn't believe in your specific god, so is that really justice?
Ulysses Arenas So doesn't that form a discrepancy? If those who haven't heard of Christianity will be judged by their own morality, does that mean cannibals and pedophiles will be allowed into heaven? After all, they never heard God's word but it was ok in their culture so why not? Plus, it forms major discrepancy when you consider that it basically means that spreading God's word is counter productive? Why spread God's word if that will just end up condemning more souls; since most people aren't going to buy into your bullshit.
And what's your definition of evil? Because if we're going by biblical morality, then disbelief itself is evil. Thus, someone who is of perfect morality except for not believing in God will burn *forever* . And as I've said, finite crime != infinite punishment. And most people do regret evil. They regret how it affected them. So will hell be empty?
Ulysses Arenas And how does believing in God elevate your dignity? More mindless blather with no substance
Ulysses Arenas Pretty sure there are civilisations that were totally ok with pedophillia and cannibalism. Morality is subjective, so because of how they were raised they would believe it's ok. Would they still go to heaven? Since you did say that everyone will be judged by their own morals.
Ulysses Arenas And it's not about another chance. It's "belive in me or I'll burn you forever"
Ulysses Arenas There you go. If someone is brought up in a cannibalistic culture then they're more likely to think it's okay.
Love Dawkins ❤️
Dawkins should read Wittgenstein and stop saying stupidities
What evidence?
Shut up Meg