How to ACTUALLY freeze and why I dislike Proguides/Skillcapped
Vložit
- čas přidán 24. 06. 2022
- The midgame macro video is taking a little bit longer to make than expected so in the mean time have a video because I was sick of seeing the same mistake in coaching over and over!
Hello, I am a Grandmaster professional top laner and top lane positional coach. If you are interested in getting personalized coaching yourself then please don't hesitate to join my Discord and DM me.
Coaching discord: / discord
Patreon: / coacheragon
I stream at: / eragonuk
Twitter: / eragonuk
#Coaching #LoL #CoachEragon #Toplane - Hry
Shout out to my patrons: Jonas Heck, xTorva, Kyle Kelley, Lucy, Junioreehh, Kobu Zero, Droson, Michiel Vandepoel, Douglas Monsky, Bartdavy, Howard Tang, BradZimmerman, Ales Teichman.
Sorry I forgot to add you to the end of the video, every video from now on will have a segment shouting out my awesome Patreon supporters!
This is completely fair. Though I'd have to point out that if you are not playing a champion that builds lifesteal/has sustain without needing to touch the enemy champion then you wouldn't want to have any more than 4-5 rangeds as the hp loss does add up, esp since you have to tank the wave longer as the larger wave will kill your wave faster.
Rhokies darius gaming in here!!
I can agree as Jax player, even having E that dodge some minion attacks don't help that much.
Yeah but you generally will never get to freeze hard with those champs anyways in most situations because of that anyways
This is true but most top lane champions have sustain or healing or shielding as a requirement for being a champion.
Those who dont happen not to have aoe
@@Cellus5000 One of the prime examples he is speaking of is one of his fav champs: Darius. No innate sustain outside of poking the enemy champions with q, which often would push the wave at the same time. Freezing with champs like darius can be good because you can deny cs and then since the wave is close to your tower and far from the enemy's it is a perfect chance to use ghost to its fullest. Even a 150 hp deficit early can mean the difference for an ignite top enemy matchup.
Theres another reason you missed: Freezing a wave with as many minions as possible is better because the enemy laner loses minions much quicker than maintaining a slow freeze. This scenario always plays in toplane when you force the enemy to back with a bad trade, and do not have enough time to push the wave fully to the tower (always happens with champs like gnar, fiora).A scenario where u would want to thin the wave when freezing is if you're looking to trade with the enemy and want to reduce minion damage.
1. Thats not a Freeze, you are tanking a wave pushing towards you.
2. More Minions = Freeze easier to break
3. If you Freeze you dont want to trade around the wave. You zone them threating with an all in or simply try to hit the wave as the enemy does It to hold the Freeze as much time as you can
@@josecanovasmartinez1133that depends on the champ sometimes its better to be defemsive let them get xp but deny all cs.
Dont listen to noobies. You are correct. I use that logic a lot. I have found myself many times in the position that the enemy has recalled, and i managed to do nothing, and letting a big enemy wave smash my own wave, was the only way i could get a lead. You can also let the wave crash your tower, to get the minions safely, and start a slow pushbto get your own recall and force the ENEMY to have less gold spent than you. It all depends obviously
It is possible to deny cs by using those minions to kill their cs. But, doing this is countered by them attacking/trading with you. If there are few minions to attack them when they attack you and lots of minions to attack you when you attack them, they can get favorable trades. You have to figure out what is better:to deny them cs or to deny them kills on you. Depends on a lot of variables. What champion you and them are playing, what exp advantage either have, what items are built, if either person is vulnerable to ganks, if they are likely to roam, if their summoner spells are up, etc. You have to assess the situation and make good decisions to optimize your laning
@@giorgospapoulidis8134Sounds like a good idea. No one is disputing that. That ain't a freeze tho, it's all they're arguing.
In defense of Skillcapped, the company does actually have videos that can help, especially the ones that help you to not autopilot / mental tips. For example, thanks to one of their videos, I ask myself the question: "Will I positively change the outcome of the game if I do this play?", and it does help me a lot to not autopilot during games and chase for random kills. Though your point at the end sums it up, as long as you don't follow their guides blindly, you are good to go.
sorry for the necro but imo skillcapped is miles better than proguides. And yes while the advice they give is extremely general and not that useful for anyone above lets say emerald, for the majority of players, especially relatively new players like me (feels weird for me to say this as I've been playing since S8), their advice is really good at making u a better player in league as the content is easily digestable.
Yea, blindly is the keyword here, their videos are actually very good
@@DizGaAlcamagreed. I think the note about elo is important. It’s like learning how to use a chainsaw. A moon needs to know how to control the aaa and stay safe, with this knowledge they can eventually learn to cut down trees. But a skilled user can carve a log into a sculpture of a bear. But you certainly wouldn’t teach a new chainsaw user the micro movements needed to sculpt as it mostly likely will end in them cutting off a body part.
Yeah, that advice goes for this channel as well (or life really). Don't just follow this guy's advice blindly, it'll be ineffective if you do.
@@kamenrexgood analogy but excuse me did you say «the moon needs to know how to control the aaa»?
Additionally, the health of minions matter as well, I always saw my friends thin the wave way too much and can't freeze even with 4+ low health minions.
Quick to the point and informative, great work on this video!
I've just started watching your videos and the concept of not taking finite resources has opened so many possibilities to me! Still trying to get my teammates to understand it but it helped me come back from a 4 kill deficit too because I had more waves to farm in the sidelines :)
this was actually really informative, i never really listened to guide videos all that much and freezing just didnt make sense to me but this helped a lot
Concise video with correct information, awesome to see! Nice work.
Hey man thank you for all your content, I literally went from permastuck since season 9 to now being emerald, its crazy how far your content has taken me so far. Much love brother.
Also if you have less minions than what is needed for a freeze and you can walk up to lane, pull those minions until the other enemy wave comes and is able to protect them, that way the enemy wave will still push to you, instead of pushing to enemy or just evening out in middle.
tysm for this short yet high quality video, seriously made freezing look much more useful and easier to do
thank you bro i have been using 3 to 4 this whole time and wondered why it always seems to go so badly while many others can keep it frozen for longer but now i know, good video very well explained
This is an underrated guide. Thanks, this tip really helped me out.
Amazing video, short and concise with perfect tips
just landed here, i like how you "attack" proguides and skillcapped, insta respect
@EragonUK you simply are the best. You know the best methods to things and relevant information to pull off some of the most insane things that most players couldn't fathom, but you use your education to provide us with understanding in such a good manner. You truly deserve more following, and you've earned my subscription.
Love videos that get the info across concisely and don't pad it with unnecessary bs
THANK YOU, this is the logic I arrived at in my just playing the game. Im so glad im not alone
You sir earned a Sub. Your an amazing teacher. This helped me finally understand. Much better than the actual Skillcapped guides lol.
I always wondered why they always break anyways and stopped bothering. Thank you very much for the information.
thank you so much for the precious information! And thanks as well for not being afraid to speak up about straight-up misinformation from big, major channel that plague the educational LoL content sphere. it sucks. Hopefully we can get better content and maybe standardized resources in the future.
Learned that through experience, specially caster minion part... Good call gentleman
This is one of the things i had to learn through experience, wish i saw this video sooner
Ty man i finally know how to freeze, i was always freezing on 3 and it was always going wrong, ty!
Skillcapped video's on that topic says legit "at least x minions"
Love your videos man keep it up
Lol just watching you do your thing there actually taught me how to freeze, I was a bit confused, so you just need to hold a good amount of minions, pull them away when your own minions are killed, and make sure the melees don't walk into the turret.
I think the advice of 4 vs as many as possible is better, even if it's not actually a good way to freeze, because the information helps you have something to build off of. The importance of understanding X minions will remain neutral at A position is important because it lets you quickly analyze wave states, especially for those just starting out. For instance, knowing about 4 minions will hold a wave even means you can tell right away if you're going to be able to freeze or not. Seeing 3 less than full HP minions is instant indication that if left alone, the wave will push away from you and you need to do something. Seeing 5+ full health minions means you already know that the lane will push towards you if left alone. This is why we always teach the 4 minion rule, because it is more than just "here's how many to freeze", it's more like "here's the minimum it takes to freeze, do what you will with that".
While I do agree that Skill capped does not put forward this idea well, from my experience teaching, giving them the information they need first before expanding on it always helps. Freezing with more than 4 minions only helps if you know you need minimum 3 or 4 minions to freeze. Freezing with as much as you can doesn't help if your guy is always trying to freeze with 2 minions, or constantly building huge bounced waves to freeze with 7+ minions regularly. Knowing the number 4 also helps you know when you can leave your lane completely, either for a recall or a quick roam without breaking your freeze.
Teach the trade before the tricks of the trade. This video is correct and useful but also incorrectly condescending about the value of each video
im ngl i saw one vid that said u should freeze with 2 casters and ive been following that ever since then 😭 u just saved my life god bless youtube recommended for randomly showing me this year old vid
completly agree i always freezed with all the minions i could because you clearly have more control over it and if for some reason the freeze is broken you can always farm them all undertower. BTW i haven't seen bassically any of this freeze videos you mentioned so feels wierd to me that i was doing it right. Also i have to say though that top lane it's the least lane played for me :D
Great tip, thanks a lot
Good stuff mate thanks
Thank you for describing why important not to thin with casters. I learnt the freezing as use around 4 minions, 2 caster and 1 cannon minion is good enough
love the video bro
Been playing for 6 years and this is the first time I've heard how to freeze
And now you climb
the small coach channels are the best, period
ERES EL MEJOR COACH DE TOPLANE QUE EXISTE ❤️
Good tips. Also depends on what the enemy laner is trying to do. If he's trying to shove and crash, or he's just afk. You need to adjust based on the champ you're playing and what they're doing
the only thing that i find really matters is not freezing with casters as frontline. if you have enough buffering melee minions the enemy casters will merge into the backline of the next wave and stay alive to maintain the freeze. with casters are frontline in a freeze they don't live long enough to do damage to freeze
I don't usually "freeze" the lane, but when I do, I take all the damage from the minions, then kill them all, and let my minions go for the push.
I know, I have no idea what I do
im ready.
Great video
i think these videos refer more to the amount of minions u wanna have when you are about to recall, so you can get back to your lane with a nice wave to farm that isnt killed by your tower. the way you showed it, is vastly different because you stay in the lane and last hit those minions, adding dmg to the Enemy wave and then actually pushing if you have only 3 or 4 minions. so, i think you are correct in the cases whrn you stay in lane and can influence the wave more. however, if u wanna recall, too many minions would crash the wave at your tower before you arrive there.
I've seen a few of these and they always very clearly state that you'll need AT LEAST 4 minions to freeze and that even that will break if you last hit too early.They gave completely correct info
2:35 hit different, deep dark pain in my soul has resurrected
This is one of those things that I passively knew, but just having it read out directly makes it click
Finally! A real actual explanation of freezing
2:36 I thought it was just me... I'm relieved to see someone else has this problem as well. Like wtf is this.
My man woke up and chose to spit facts
After ro much time of playing League and never new Anything about freezing the lane or how to... You Teached me in an eazy way... Thank your Sir and keep Roasting Skillcapped and Pro Guides ^^
thank you coach
The more important part of this is that you guarantee enemy loses something. Jg or support can show up to clear freeze, but if you freeze with 5 or more minions, you can still deny them a whole wave because the stacked wave one shots your wave.
This is an amazing video
sometimes it is better to try to freeze with meele minions depending on your champion as they do less damage and allows you to tank them for longer to control the freeze (especially on champs with no sustain in lane).
Added advantage: the more minions you freeze the fastest they die, making it even harder for the opponent to lasthit and making them lose cs faster if they are out of lane or not reacting
Changed my mind thanks
I always used more minions because of a simple reason: It takes less time to fix a freeze when I have more minions pushing into me than it is to wait for the wave to bounce to their turret then back.
I have an actual question about point 2. You said freezing with casters above melees. That does apply when you freeze just in front of your tower but you can try and pull the wave to the side so the melees don't enter the tower range most of the time. Also, by trimming the melees, the casters will die faster to the incoming wave as they are squisihier so you need a 4 or 5+ line of casters to keep a freeze(in the case that no enemy melees are left alive) and if that does not happen, the wave will slow push back. I think with 3 casters and 1 melee you can kind of hold the freeze as the melee minion will tank enough damage so that your 3 caster deal enough damage so that the freeze is kept untilthe enemy reinforcing wave comes. So I think you should try to keep some frontline minions alive and don;t base yourself only on casters. at 1:20 in the video you do use a cannon minion as fodder for your casters to do damage. Another thing is that can be done on top as you can move in and out of the bush to reset aggro and you don't take that much minion damage but on midlane it is a lot harder because most mages are a lot squishier and the caster damage will start to hurt pretty quick pre lvl-8 or 9 let's say (in the case that you tank 4+ casters minions). And also in mid you can pull the wave a bit to the side opposite of your tower so melees don't enter the tower range. I am curios to hear your thoughts on the things I have presented. I do believe that maybe making a balance between the minions is the best way? Also awesome video and great initiative
The image he showed at the start counts how many Casters Minions you need to Freeze. Melee minions are never used to Freeze but i dont know why. Probaly because maths
I was always taught because casters do more damage too, but I can't remember if that's actually true
@@wrazorleafit is
I always shed a tear when a melee minion randomly decides to commit sudoku on my tower.
Awesome video! I've been Hella suspicious about the ol 3minion thing, now if only someone could tell my support this
I would also add to caster minions point that they simply do more dmg than meeles
nice guide. tnx
Hey could you make a wave managemnt guide on midlane, as i feel like you have a very huge health loss as a mage and wont be able to freeze as easily and if you dont have the time do you have any ither video or channel reccomendations
comment for the algo.
in gold i get to freeze a lot even in losing matchups, in these cases i need to be careful that the wave isnt to big for the enemy to shove and dive.
about half of the gold-bracket doesnt know a lot about wave management tho.
Bro I've been freezing wrong the entire time. I was always wondering how the hell my freeze broke without any intervention? Now I freaking know.
It’s crazy when I have a huge freeze hit wave and support is seemingly like “omg we have to get to 4 minions” and starts attacking the creeps. Like bro please I beg stop
Legendary video
This is a bit older now but good indepth thing. Another reason to freeze with casters and not melee minions is that casters do more damage and assuming a properly thinned wave 3 casters and one melee will kill your wave much faster than 3 melees and one caster
Cool been freezing right for ages then good to know friends were wrong as I thought. It's like started with freezing on 4 minions but noticed melee's ran it so I would hold 2 melee's 3 casters as a bare minimum to avoid that or 4 casters as a bare minimum and I would normally try to as he mentioned hold 5 or 6 minions for a layer of safety to it great video
great vid :)
I don't think your video fully covered the topic.
My approach is to freeze with the minimum amount of minions I can control. There's only one scenerio that I can think of where this wouldn't apply (there might be more)
- Faster creep denial when enemy TPs after death while it's pushing to you and you want to stay in the lane
In every other situation having more creeps will hurt you slightly
- slower turn into push
- you need to hold the minions longer (you lose hp)
- harder protection against breaking the freeze because of larger minion disadvantage
- More minions lost if you die
- You can't immediatley leave lane, because you need to face tank it so it won't be auto-shoved under tower
It's also fine to freeze/hold wave with 3 casters if they're full hp and you last hit BUT the enemy minions need to have at least the same stats as yours (based on average team's experience they get stronger/weaker compared to enemies. if you click on a minion you will see bonus stats above health bar.)
It's also fine to have more minions as long as it serves a purpose. I think you should list those things as a coach when "exposing" other content creators - otherwise you're doing something similar as they're oversimplifying freeze concept.
The example with renekton was fine, but it's very matchup and champion specific. Maybe for melee champions that 1 additional minion doesn't make a huge difference, but if you'd hold 3 casters + 1 cannon on vayne, kennen, akshan it would be in many cases a suicide
Maintaining a five minute freeze is not too impressive, when you don't get challenged on it, by either the toplaner or the toplaner and the jungler... but I do agree with your points in this video.
Nice video, i do it for instinct, but , when you say makes sense.
This makes sense, it feels hard to freeze with Sett because he needs to use minions in order to get his stun with his E. Although, in order for this to work I would need to build more sustain in order to tank the minion wave better.
sett usually builds bork first anyway
@@kurtaaron4110 I'm a Mathematically Correct Sett Enjoyer.
Another important fact is that minions receive buffs depending on number of turret dead on the lane and average level of the game. If you try to freeze with 4 minions (3 is impossible even if you pure last it anyways, if close to tower), huge chance just for the fact your minion are most likely stronger and will push back. Better be safe !
Me, who just started to play the game:
"Hmm... Yes. Minions."
I think freezing needs to be removed from the game period. Makes a lane where to made a mistake in unplayable in certain matchups. But yeah great video especially for new players. I realized after a few attempts you actually need more minions than the pro guides suggest to freeze, but this video just confirms that.
OK, BLINDELY LISTENING TO YOU, THANK YOU
Instructions at the start unclear, my foot is now stuck in a block of ice
been playing league for so long already and I have gotten skill capped and proguides and its just a scam. Yeah, i benefited a little, but not enough that wouldve gotten me to a higher division. I went from Iron Ello, to bronze using skill capped and literally got hardstuck and got super desperate and went to proguides next. However, I also realized that higher ello players cannot teach people how to think. yeah they can give ideas and information but really its up to that player to decide what to do with that information. Now, maybe this isnt a great achievement for others but for me it is, i went from a bronze player, to a gold 2 peak player in one season.(im hardstuck gold now, but the point is that i climbed and making progress) Maybe im not challenger, but i mean, at least i can say, skillcapped or proguides did NOT have anything to do with my climbing.
Omg thanks I'm saving this video to rematch to help me remember 😋
ty thats great
I noticed melee minions randomly running it down and that freezing with more minions denies the enemy cs quicker through just playing the game and going with the skillcapped 4 or more advice. No matter where i want to freeze from it's 4 or more AND out of tower aggro. What I'm trying to say is i reached a similar conclusion intuitively so i think the guides are still super useful
Is it weird that i always knew this all along. I remembee doing the 4 minion guide 2 melees and 2 ranged and keep on fucking it up so i just upped it to 2 melees 3 ranged and then as i got into platinum *pre emerald introduxtion* i just barely trimmed it if i could tank or just heal up from the damage. Now i just freeze with everything and only last hitting and pulling it back as far as i can then dipping in the bush
I always took SkillCapped’s advice on freezing as a guideline. I try to freeze with as many minions as I can without having too many that it becomes unmanageable
Do u do live game coachings too
Isnt this comon sense, love the vid in its simplicity since some seem needed to hear it for how the math works❤
Ngl, i was waiting for a ice cube maker in to the freezer
Also if the next wave is a canon-wave you need 1 or 2 more minions
"target champ only" prevents you from hitting minions, and breaking the freeze
I like your name a lot :D
Is it because of the book series? :D
Makes sense for top lane, not really anywhere else
When to stop freezing?
I always thought that I need to break the freeze if my enemy is roaming, so i can atleast get some turret damage, while my enemy pressures my allies.
Is that correct?
Are there other scenarios where i have to break the freeze?
It depends a lot. Your champ, his champ, and your items. For example, its gonna be hard to push to punish your enemy if you are for example a Shen who is freezing, as you are gonna take ages to push, and by then your laner is gonna come back again most likely, so might as well hold the freeze.
Also, you cant dive or kill him while freezing, or roam, so if you want to increase your advantage, and push your lead, you have yo eventually break the freeze.
But yeah, if you break the freeze, he will come back from roaming and you will have no freeze, if you don't break it its a game of chicken, whether you break the freeze first or he chooses to keep roaming and losing cs but doing stuff on the map.
@@matiasenriquemaldonadoruiz5216 also, (especially when it's later on in the game) you should probably not freeze if your jungler is top side and wants to do herald, dive, invade, or if you want to roam mid
ty
I see this as a tradeoff between risk/reward, because if you die with that big a wave crashing your turret you're going to lose even more XP, and the enemy is gonna bank plates for days. You are accurate as far as ensuring a freeze remains, though. Nice vid.
The videos are created for beginners to pick up concepts that are initially kinda difficult to grasp lol having an issue with skill capped and pro guides for these reasons is like having an issue with first grade math because addition and subtraction don’t teach you enough to do calc. Other than that this video was very informative and well-explained. The part about always thinning melee minions was particularly useful for my game.
Great tip, what do you think about proguides/skillcapped's tip about not prioritizing drake/giving drake too much importance?
I think it can be really incorrect. I'll probably be making a video on it in the near future.
@@EragonUK yessir, thank you
Actually as a general rule, it can be correct. As a Camille OTP, I prefer my team to give up drake so that I can get the T2 gold and scale. Too many throws happen on drakes, people always hard force them for no reason, especially when they are playing scaling comps and are a little ahead, in this case, I would prefer to give up the drake JUST TO BE SURE that we have a better lead at the next one. It can be bad to give them for free but generally people throw and overforce while trying to get them.
more correct the lower elo you are in my opinion. herald becomes a 3 plater and nothing else at higher elos but on lower elos it can give you two turrets most of the time if used well
depends on your team, if you're stronger in early game, prioritizing herald and early leads that can secure the win @ about 20 minutes is way better than going for drakes which will be practically useless until the soul comes up
People blindly listening to guides (especially things like item builds) and just lazily copying it is what really hurts alot of people imo. Because they never ask the "Why am I building this item now?" So they don't learn, don't develop game sense and probably build wrong for the situation. Always appreciate someone explaining exactly why. Good video
The thing that they don't consider too, is skill cap. Those item guides are what they think is OP cus of their playstyle and skill difference
this. this is something i understood immediately when starting to play LoL 9ish years ago. i always spoke out about simply copying content creators, pros, guides etc. I always said "i like to do my own thing". which, yes, may have lead to me doing some sub optimal things at certain points of my play, but i also never had to search builds or wonder what my next item would be. I've always done things because i understand why its strong and make the choice to select it. I play with so many people that say things like "oh i got this because its recommended" and "oh well i didnt know what to get next so yada yada". always impresses me just HOW many people even far up the latter dont understand itemizing almost at all.
in the proguides video 0:24, it literally says "number of caster minions required to push, 4+ casters will always push" - referring to how many caster minions YOU need for the wave to auto push.
the other points you made in the video are correct, but i just wanted to point that out.