Shadowrun Trilogy - Some Thoughts After Reviewing The Series
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- Just talking about a few things that didnt fit into the individual reviews!
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#Shadowrun
Just wanted to mention that while new Shadowrun games are not coming anytime soon there are a lot of story modules developed based on Shadowrun Trilogy. "CalFree in Chains" and "Antumbra Saga" are good examples of such mods with more interesting gameplay and stories then original games.
There is also a an enhanced remake mod of Returns built in Hong Kong called Vox Populi.
It's even got new Companion characters with their own extra side quest missions (including Kayote and Paco).
Would highly recommend over original Returns.
@@t.dmattocks6119 Agree! It is much better! Also it uses much faster version of decking from Hong Kong that makes game more fun.
Very true. Something that should definitely be included in a 100% review. Impressive how 'CalFree in Chains' and 'Antumbra Saga' are made by a lone modder and reach master class.
Yes, a review of calfree in chains, the caldecott caper and Antumbra saga, all made by the same author would be great.
I’ll throw mine in here too. It’s called Brothers to the End and is a prequel to the Sega Genesis game as well as a sequel to the SNES game.
I’d love to hear what you guys think.
Would love to see Shadowrun get the triple A treatment. A high fantasy cyberpunk world is such a cool concept, it's ripe for storytelling.
Could have been bigger than what Cyberpunk tried to be.
@@Olsenator besides that, I think this concept might be too nerdy for most audiences. Bright ripped some of it off and people clowned on it like crazy.
Let Eidos Montreal (whatever they'll be called after the acquisition) handle it. Perfect fit.
I am going to have to agree with the skeptics, just look at the Fallout series, once it got the triple a treatment it lost its soul.
Idk about that triple A games recently have been kinda crappy recently
I personally really liked the fact they implemented decking (with Dragonfall being my preferred iteration), because it allowed for organic sub-goals during missions (protecting your decker, stalling for decking to complete etc.) that went beyond strict wave-based or kill-me-all combat. What I will say is that this caters specifically to people enjoying the particular cyberpunk fantasy of being a hacker/decker whereas other character builds don't get the same attention.
True. Dragonfall in particular profits most from the MC being a Decker. So much so that my current playthrough is a Rigger/Decker. (Makes sense to use drones as protection for your meat while you're brain is jacked in).
Hong Kong, imho, is probably the most open in terms of how your character can profit in gameplay. Personally I prefer a mage to take advantage of the bouncing spells. But a cyberware, barely (demi)human, street samurai works too.
@@shawngillogly6873 Yep my main for all 3 games was a Street Samurai / Decker.
Yeah, I mention these games in the same breath as Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker, Divinity Original Sin and Wasteland 3. But Shadowrun has the highest barrier to entry, I would say, just due to presentation. The amount of reading involved will cut its audience in half right from the start. I played the games before Cyberpunk 2077 and had this benchmark in my head of what the mood in that genre could be like, and to this day I still think these games are the best videogame representation of a cyberpunk world.
@@10cody7 the fantasy part of it is a bit weird at first, but kinda clicks together as you play. It also opens some interesting storylines that would be impossible in a pure cyberpunk setting where it always boils down to "corporations bad". Here it has a bit of a twist at least.
I'd say that the 20 dex kobolds and valerie attack bonus are a bigger barrier to entry lol. Any newbie coming in whit a random build is going cry tears of blood even on normal.
I thought that pillars has a lot more writing than shadowrun
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 It does, but there's voice-acting in it. Same with Pathfinder Kingmaker. That makes a huge difference to a lot of people, even if it only happens during key plot moments. I personally kind of like sitting down and reading for a bit, but I have heard people reject games that ask their audience to read a whole lot.
@@sarahohara5806 I would argue that some voice acting is worse than no at all. Consistency is really important, at least to me personally, and it is always jarring to me to go from a vo bit to reading and then back again. So I think you either should go all the way and voice act everything or don't bother and just let me read. I also found my personal sweet spot when it comes to reading and I often conciously notice that some dialoges and exposition drag for too long. It is more of the game design issue I guess, but Hong Kong had some really overextended backstory dialogue, that should have been split a few more times.
Although probably mentioned many times before, Hare-Brained Schemes was actually an iteration of the pen and paper creators of Shadowrun called FASA Corp who also did BattleTech, Renegade Legions, and other series for the tabletop. I was a writer for FASA and was very pleased to see it make the transition to the computer and console.
What's needed for the Decking really is moving the setting out of the 2050/60 and bring it to the 70/80 current setting where hacking is now wireless, make the Hacker/Technomancer more integral to combat.
I disagree here, they tried doing that with the Shadowrun MMO that became Boston Lockdown and that game flopped hard, truth is Returns got made out of nostalgia for the Genesis and SNES Shadowrun games, they even had Jake return, and they needed to keep Decking though I think they made a good decision getting away from the implementations from those earlier games. I do agree that now that we had these we could use a game, or better another trilogy, set in the updated timeline but needed these first. IMO of course.
@@bakuiel1901 Yeah they did that, but they did poorly. The ttRPG allow so much more with wireless than Lockdown allowed
Great review as usual.
I have a soft-spot for the Shadowrun Trilogy... they feel like a love letter to the early cyberpunk genre. Harebrained seemed to work hard at capturing the proper atmosphere, and at exploring the core cyberpunk themes.
Their storytelling focus also explains a lot about the Matrix support which, as Mortismal seemed to guess, was bolted on late into development. The issue with (jack-in style) decking has always been that it's so core to the fantasy, but there's no good way to integrate it with party-based adventures. In these cases, Harebrained always seemed to favor the fantasy... how can you call it Shadowrun if there's no desperate stand while the decker opens the door?
It's too bad that Shadowrun IP is in such limbo. It's not the "purest" cyberpunk universe, but it might be the most fun cyberpunk setting for games. Hopefully this isn't the last we see if it!
I had just finished Dragonfall when your review for Returns came out, wasn't expecting you to finish the whole series before i wrapped up Hong Kong xD
I loved the side characters of dragon fall, it felt like a reward progressing the main plot because I'd get to go talk to these interesting guys and hear their stories.
Hong Kong was my favourite though. Not even because of the combat, it was the setting. Kowloon walled city was a character and it was a terrifying antagonist at that. You really felt the menace, like you did not belong where you were going. The corporate Feng Shui sabotage was also really fun world building. Hong Kong may have been wacky, but it was internally consistent enough to pull it off in style.
I kind like the decker system, it's way better than Cyberpunk 2077's real time quick hacking, and all the minigames that others games try to do, in fact I think is solid for the theme and gameplay of the series, my only complain about it, is that the levels could be more puzzle like and more complex to get around. Of course it's my opinion and I understand how this system puts you and others off. Very cool video, it's really a very enjoyable trilogy and important for us CRPG lovers.
I think its a pretty good prensentation on what it was in the tabletop game. We never went into Decking cause it mostly just came to your GM had to make it a separate scenario for the decker when others where just idling around and had nothing else to do then wait for the decker to come out of the matrix.
I don't know what it is about Shadowrun but I feel like this IP lurks in the shadows of it's namesake. It's one of the most interesting universes I've ever come across.
Decking in combat was always an issue for the games tabletop roots as well. For me personally I love being a decker, it makes the game better and easier and I always loved the concept from tabletop as well. Perhaps that's why I was able to overlook these issues you felt with it because I had fun with it.
To this day I'm amazed how good Dragonfall ended up being. Even before the Director's Cut re-release. IIRC, Dragonfall was originally supposed to a smaller-scale addon to Returns, but HBS really took the feedback regarding Returns to heart and expanded the project significantly.
Pretty cool games. Dragonfall was definitely my favorite but I tend to put a greater focus on story in choosing the games I play than pure mechanics. Too bad we are unlikely to see any more. The Sci-Fi mix w/ High fantasy is not a setting that get's explored too often.
I wish it got explored way more often. And shadowrun is ripe for it
I've been sitting on this trilogy for a while. Your reviews definitely moved them up on the backlog.
I loved everything about all 3 Shadowruns.
The only improvement they could have made was to get voice actors.
I don't mind reading because it's actually well written but with good writing and good voice actors this would have been godlike.
Very cool, I"m acually going to start playing one today because of these reviews. Thank you again Mortismal
How is it?
A thought just occurred. If the level editor still works, I can make a shadowrun version of other games. I have so many ideas.
Go for it!
I actually hated how Hong Kong implemented decking. Adding in a real time component in an extremely janky control system just didn't work for me. not that it was too difficult, I just didn't love that hacking became about the player's real time control skills (and skills in the Simon-Says mini-game), vs. the character's skills. Felt very tedious. At least with Dragonfall, there was interesting interactions between the matrix and real time.
In retrospect, if budget wasn't an issue, the best way I think to implement decking would've been a completely different mini-game, something skill based, but either more deterministic and involves more component and pieces. Honestly, in an ideal scenario, I picture a Gwent-inspired game for decking (more components and depth to make it more strategic). The big issue with decking combat is that controlling a single character in a turnbase game without tons of depth feels VERY straight forward and tedious. RNG makes things worst since it can make attacks after attacks drag out further.
My personal favourite is Hong Kong. Although I do realized the story of Dragonfall is somewhat more interesting, the aesthetic and the underlying themes of Hong Kong are so absolutely traditional cyberpunk, that I can help but want to fully immerse in that world. Is one of the few games that I truly wished had many more hours, many more missions. For me the world of SR : HK is what CP 2077 should have been.
I really enjoyed returns and dragonfall on Android. The Android ports made it possible for me to play it while on the move, without access to a PC. Unfortunately they are no longer available on Android. I completely agree on the decking. It should be there in some form, the execution is not bad per se, but for some reason I didn't find it fun. I wonder how one could make it different, so that it'd be a part of the game to look forward too. I think, if legal reasons are stopping Paradox/HBS from making a sequel, they should be able to use the same engine/system for a different cyberpunk setting. The tools and the players are already there.
Hairbrained Schemes just announced a new game. It isn't shadowrun, so perhaps they decided to stop working with the rights and move on? The Lamplighters League.
The matrix was also difficult to handle in the tabletop version of Shadowrun (at least the older editions). Coupled with the astral plane and you would have to take care of combat that occurred in the physical, matrix, and astral plane at the same time but at different speed...
I played only Returns for now and I LOVED IT. Looking forward to the 2nd and 3rd part.
Yeah, the fact Paradox and Microsoft would have to negotiate a release is...messy and unfortunate. And one needs look no further than the lawsuits surrounding Battletech's development and release to see how quickly this could get murky.
And yes, Catalyst, the TT developer of both Shadowrun and Battletech, is owned by the Baseball Card Company.
The last Battletech expansion dropped in Nov 2019, and development didn't actually stop until 2020. Since then, HBS has been working on a new IP, as yet unannounced. But supposedly not connected to anything they formerly owned. Given HBS' offices remain in Seattle, while Paradox is in Sweden, I'm certain the current travel situation globally has slowed any timeframe for their next release.
The fact that you mentioned Seattle makes me wonder if HBS was assigned to VtM:B 2
@@TheMarcHicks Nice that actually give me a little hope for that game.
@@grandlancer Seeing as the rumor is that they're hiring for a "horror-based game," it would not surprise me. Though if they were, then Paradox was ready to pull the plug on the former developer long before it was announced.
@@TheMarcHicks Also saw that rumor on Reddit. Though it got savaged. I wouldn't rule in or out the possibility.
I was so excited to play Returns as I grew up on the Sega Genesis and SNES versions, as well as the 360 shooter online with buddies
Im playing hong kong and i love this franchise.
Amazing crpg games with really well written characters and great world building.
Great video Mortismal Gaming!
When the Kickstarter for announced Shadowrun Returns I got super exited. For the last Shadowrun game I had played was Shadowrun for the Super Nintendo back in 1993. I got dyslexia and English is not my first language and that did not make it easy for me to play the game. But my excitement for the Shadowrun world pushed me to go on.
There was one more Shadowrun game that came out about the same time as the Shadowrun Trilogy called Shadowrun Chronicles: Boston Lockdown. It played vary much like the games in Trilogy but it was a four player COOP. I liked it and logged about 20 hours in it. The game was later shutdown for some reason that I do not recall.
If it isn't mentioned with the trilogy and was shut down, it sounds like it was unauthorized. Something akin to pokemon uranium
@@Blasted2Oblivion I went back and had a look at the games discussions page on Steam and the Devs had this to say on why the game was being shutdown: "Our license for the title has run its course and with no money to show for the game, Microsoft has not exactly been jumping at the chance to renew it.
On top, the persistent ransomware attacks on our servers have becomne too much work to fend off in order to operate the game, which has barely been covering the server cost for some time."
@@TheMadwizz well that sucks.
the 'matrix problem' is a known one in the RPG. You basically want a group that is all decker, or you make the decker an NPC.T oa degree, there's a similar rigger problem, but there's some easier solutions for that - make the rigger a drone rigger, for example, and basically ignore the chase mechanics.
Before I found this video I just listened to an awful useless review of this trilogy. Thanks for doing it properly, you helped me make my decision!! :)
If there's another Shadowrun video game I think it is more likely to be developed by inXile or Obsidian since they are now both owned by Microsoft.
I came to this video due to the consoles this summer. Looking forward to playing these on Switch on June 21st. Thanks for the videos on this series.
Love these games. I'll buy a remastered version of returns with gameplay improvements from Hong Kong and steam achievements
One of my all time favorite series ever.
I'm a huge fan of the Shadowrun universe, and I can't help but imagine the incredible possibilities if we could experience it with the same level of investment and attention to detail that Larian Studios brings to their games. A Larian-caliber Shadowrun title would undoubtedly be a dream come true for fans like us. 🌟
FYI if you want a remade better version of Returns with new companion characters and stories for them even go for Vox Populi.
It's returns rebuilt within Hong Kong I believe and it's great.
The decking system is unfortunately not very suited to a completely turn based game, maybe?
It's a very integral part of Cyberpunk, but to this day I've never seen it done right (warning: personal opinion) in any videogame, turn based or not.
Bummer, I'm waiting for that since I read novels of the genre so many years ago: they're quite weird novels, if you did try some of those classics, but they have lots of enthusiastic imagery about what one could do in the Cyberspace, beside those cultural flavors that have already been represented in several games' "real world" sections.
Thanks for your videos!
Picked up Dragonfall for a whopping &3.74 on Steam!
I envy your productivity. Keep it up!
great video as always
+ is always nice to see some love for the Shadowrun trilogy
They did a great job with the classes.
I'd used a mage in Dragonfall and an Adept in Hong kong.
I think they wrote characters quite well in either game.
I agree that Dragonfall was very compelling story and role play wise. Hong Kong rail riaded you quite a bit, but I didn't mind since it was fairly well done.
This is my favorite genre right now and this has peaked my interest. It's coming to Game Pass June 21.
Berlin (dragonfall) stood above the others
Really wish they kept making campaigns for this game
Is this the same game that was released on sega genesis back in the 90’s?
its the same setting if thats what you mean
Remember this was off the back of Johnny Mnemonics (VR combat)
Part of the concept was like a combat-hacker (protect your hacker in the gunfire so they can extract the info or take turret offline)
The navigation in the matrix was janky and unforgiving.
TBH, I'm ready for a cyberpunk CRPG.
One could argue Johnny Mnemonic was playing off Shadowrun. As the original TTRPG predates even William Gibson's short story, and the movie by a decade.
@@shawngillogly6873 oh...oops. good point.
I'm gonna sneakily pivot and say, I meant the book: 8 years before the game.
Yes.. that's what I really meant.
I must be the only one who actual liked the decking. Just though it needed more flair
I agree word for word with your thoughts on the ranking of the games with the caveat that anyone on the fence; You can just play Hong Kong, Dragonfalls story IS better, but Hong Kongs is still excellent so IMO you can start Hong Kong no big deal.
thanks for the reviews, really helpfull
Good morning, good video.
we thought a Shadowrun game was impossible prior to these games. Even with the complicated licensing, it's certainly not impossible.
Playing this now because theyre all free on Playstation plus right now
I guess the decking being more dynamic in Hong Kong helps make it more engaging, though yeah I often get annoyed by it.
When playing through the trilogy, I ended up abandoning decking entirely when I reach Hong Kong.
Moving on:
Stygian: Reign of the Old Ones for content
Haven(by the Game Bakers): for 'decompression'?
I was really excited when I heard the Shadowrun Trilogy was to be released on the Switch but from what I gather, neither of these three games is the SNES original, correct? If that's the case, I will be grossly bummed out.
No this is definitely not like the SNES version. They may make references to things that happened, but it is closer to the TTRPG rules than the SNES version.
The SEGA system Shadowrun game was actually closer to the original TTRPG rules.
But these games do a very good job a sticking closer to the original rules and keeping to the actual flavor of the TTRPG setting.
@@jonberry2083 Yeah I realized fast. Damn shame, that game is iconic.
One issue with Hong Kong that I'm surprised you didn't mention was the lack of money given to you in that game you're poor for your entire playthru and it didnt really give much way to experimenting with things
fun fact these were were done by the og developers of shadowrun
i will tell you what would have been awesome: Shadowrun that is in first person ,real time ,but complete in immersive world, they did a good job ,on the turn based one, but completly missed the potential they had at their disposal on the microsoft one ,instead of making it a player vs player,they should have made it like cyberpunk, imagine just one city ,huge ,but with we will say 6 differant mr jonhson ,you have to find them,they might not let you work for them until your shadowrep improves, everthing cyberpunk is but include that magical twist Shadowrun offers,what if they allowed to play Lone star, a ganger, a fixer, a mr jonhson, ,i can just see myself hunting down material to make spell foci ,make aurichalcum, make runed weapons, or finally finally find the good cyberdoc with the good shit,or (LETS ALL WRAP OUR BRAIN AROUND THIS) be a rigger that controls drones but also the vehicule they drive in, shadowrun combat vehicule, spirit quests, like i said they missed on lots of aspect of shadowrun, i kno w you didnt like the matrix aspect, they can do only so much from a tabletop game, if you go back on past shadowrun games all matrix scenes are horrendous.this one was i say the best iteration of the shadowrun matrix .
Hmm, not so sure I agree that Hong Kong had better gameplay. It had better mechanics, sure, with the revamped cyberware and decking, but the mission and level designs were a huge step down from Dragonfall and heck, even Returns. The level design and enemy encounters were a joke and there was just an overall lack of challenge everywhere, so while you might have gotten a ton of fun new toys, you really weren't given enough opportunities to play with them. Dragonfall might have been more basic in comparison, but the devs really did everything they could to make the fights interesting with what limited tools were available. The expansion, Shadows of Hong Kong, addressed this by making all sorts of tough encounters against overwhelming numbers of foes, but that still didn't fix the base campaign.
Still a good game, and one of three reasons why 2015 was a great year (the other two being Bloodborne and The Witcher 3). Overall, this series of games was a pleasant surprise and it made me fall in love with the Shadowrun universe. It's a shame we haven't seen any more and likely won't for a long time.
I enjoyed the trilogy, with DF being my favourite. But I also wasn't a big fan of the decking aspect of the games. Found them more of a chore than enjoyable to be honest.
While I liked the games, I can't say I would really recommend them to other people without a warning about what they would be getting in to. I do think Dragonfall was the best of the 3, and Returns wasn't really much more than an extended tutorial for Dragonfall. HK's decking changes were a bad idea, IMO.
June 21 let's go!
Im playing this collection now & im on the tail end of Shadowrun Returns. I wont be finishing the first game because there is an end game enemy that is frustrating as hell to kill. U need a specific weapon and only get 2 of them so if u miss a shot, u got to start it all over again
I found that part very frustrating also, considering that in pen and paper Shadowrun a mage's mana based spells would have worked to damage or kill bug spirits. I found that having everyone drop the physical forms quickly then focusing on the spirit aspects one at a time was the quickest way to get through those fights. It was still VERY frustrating.
One encounter with two spirits did take almost 30 rounds to finish due to needing all 4 shots to hit and any misses causing the physical fight to restart.
Best trilogy ever
I tend to agree with your assessment. The Decking Sequences were so annoying that I remember just finding a cheat to essentially bypass them. The rest of the game is a solid if a bit under-baked RPG with really attractive graphics but not enough character choice. If they ever come back I'd want more in-depth systems (combat), in-depth RPG interactions/choices and a completely new decking system.
But I hope they don't come back. Not because I don't like them but because Hairbrained's next game was my beloved BATTLETECH, which has more hours played than any other game on my Steam account. I want the sequel to that truly excellent title instead.
Harebrained schemes has published since being bought by pdx; battletech was released in 2018 and theyve worked on and released dlcs for that until... i think the last one was in 2020?
Correct, but I was talking about full game releases, which up to that point they were releasing a full title almost every year
@@MortismalGaming sure, the shadowrun games were iterative though so needed less development I'd assume than a new title, I'd almost equate the shadowrun games more to dlcs in my admittedly 0 experience in gamedev opinion
Heavy Metal dropped in November of 2019, development of BT was completed in early 2020. The game was developed while HBS was independent still, Kickstarter supported like Shadowrun. And then around the time of the Flashpoints DLC, it was announced that HBS had gone been acquired by Paradox. Mitch Gitelman is on record in several places as saying the acquisition was friendly and they still have their creative freedom. And given Wiseman and Mitch have a history of selling companies and moving on to start new ones, it probably does mean something that they're still both still on board after the acquisition.
I really like the series, have been replaying it again lately! Hong Kong definitely improved the UI, especially for item management but I agree that Dragonfall's story is better overall. There are a lot of differences from the pen and paper game which I guess were made to better fit the stories they were making - in the P&P it's based on priorities so you could start off rich etc. There's a lot of other changes that simplify the world a little too much imo - no astral plane except for dialogue, riggers can only use drones - that I would love to see in another game. Since they're kinda done with Battletech now, who knows, maybe they'll circle back to Shadowrun!
Wasn't there a Shadowrun game for the Sega years ago ?
Yes. Back when FASA still owned it all. There's actually a mod that recreates the Nintendo game in the HBS system.
Yes, and it was closer to the TTRPG rules than the SNES version.
where did you get the wallpaper in start of the video its nice.
Thats just the key art for the trilogy on steam, and then I added the logos
Am I the only one with some strange echo and buzz in the background?
Otherwise played Dragonfall, loved it.
Must be your pc.
for the algorithm
As much as I loved the Shadowrun games, I enjoyed Battletech more, and would prefer Harebrained continue with that instead.
free comment.
I am glab you reviewd these. I geniuly could not Find good reviews on these games just some that were More or else "well the genre is CRPG" whic does not tell a hole lot about the quality..
Last I heard TOPS owns the series overall
I wish decking was stealth based only. Combat in decking was hilariously bad
Ain't copyright law just peachy
Well, to be fair, Wiseman made a pretty sum selling the IP in the 1st place. But if you think Shadowrun is complicated, the nightmare of Battletech/Mechwarrior is something to make a Rules Lawyer blush.
is this basically a disco elysum game in cyberpunk style?
I haven't seen much of Disco Elysium but from what little I've seen from it, no.
Shadowrun trilogy is more like a mix of Xcom and rpg.
Have you done a review for the Sega Genesis original game for console? Please don't look at the one for SNES, it's awful.
TBH, the Matrix side of things always sucks, whether in video game or table-top. Shadowrun is at its best when it doubles down on the magic and metahumanity side of things
The Matrix always been the ugly duckling of Shadowrun even on tabletop. Its always a huge chunk of the world setting. Is super clunky to use in about every edition. Is super time consuming.. and alot of GM iv know just found ways to simplify it because honestly unless both the Decker and the GM understand the rules 100% its super annoying to deal with.