How to not screw up your kickdrums!
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- Let's talk about kick drum sound design: what is the "heart" of the kick? And how to nail the sweet spot but also allow you to experiment and sound design? I'll go over some of my own learnings in this video!
The plugins in the video are D16's Punchbox, Izotope Insight, and Soundtoys Decapitator.
My techno project ► / torcaudio
My Foundations courses ► courses.underdog.brussels
Patreon ► / underdogmusicschool
Discord ► / discord
Contents:
0:00 so many kick drum videos
0:44 The two ways of making a kick
1:55 me trying to synthesize a kick
2:24 909 vs sine wave
3:03 the heart of the kickdrum
5:43 high to low frequencies
6:15 the high frequencies
6:38 the end frequency and its tuning
7:22 saturating and adding samples
9:36 the final result
10:14 the final advice
My techno project Torc ► soundcloud.com/torcaudio
My educational courses ► courses.underdog.brussels
A tipp that I can add from my own very unexperienced perspective for sound design of kick drums (and everything else basically) is: Pause! I cannot count the times I started with an approach that sounded pretty decent and even though I wasn't tweaking too crazy, i.e. did only minimal changes, the thing sounded worse and worse over time, with it sounding better when I listened to it later or in context with some snare and some hats. I mean its not surprising, listening to the same kick drum over and over again becomes boring, but it also worsenes your subjective perception of it as well. A personal rule of thumb is that I roughly try to change what I am listening to at least every 64 bars (very roughly, of course I am not counting those, I think what my brain does is roughly doubling the expected time for changes when listening to music normally), or - if I'm not able to because I need to figure stuff out with my DAW before I can change what I want to change - just pause the loop and figure stuff out in silence. Ears can get tired much faster than eyes, maybe because we cannot close them.
Totally agreed with this :)
Very good point, I work in a similar way, it's so easy to get lost and loose perspective when listening to same thing for too long.
closing your ears would be shutting of any noise, so youd be right
Hands down best video on kicks synthesis on the internet. Shockingly underrated in terms of views.
Videos about kick drums will never get stale ❤
It's funny how that works, isn't it? : D
I swear your channel is like no others when it comes to spreading good unusual information and very useful and deep at the same time
I've been synthesizing kicks using Ableton's wavetable. It's been a learning experience for sure.
The 909 kick is actually a triangle wave, not a sine wave.
I tend to get great results by layering a sine wave, a triangle wave and a layer of white noise. Try it out!
Trying to emulate authentic 909 kickdrums can be pretty tricky from my experience. If you want a 909 style kick, just use a 909 kick 😂
@@DelasVC yeah it was a learning experience but for everyday productions i just use a sample or some kind of 909 emulator.
Kick 2 and Bark of the Dog, have been my best friends when it comes to making a good kick.
Bark of the Dog underrated!
You are amazing, man! Excellent explanations, great music, beautiful sounds! 🤘
Thanks Oscar, keep going with your amazing Tutorials! Because of your influence I started producing techno. Thank you so much 😊
4 days i waited to watch this because, as you said in the intro - HOW MANY KICK DRUM TUTORIALS DO WE NEED - and it turns out, yes, we needed one more, and it was this one. Incredible work here, learned way more than expected. Brilliant, as always.
I got a real kick out of this tutorial! Thx for your work...
My favorite vst for designing kicks is Kick2. Really powerful tool.
Concur
Love love love punchbox.....and this video is amazing in showing how awesome it is.
This is just what I needed!
Great video Oscar. Kick 2 is also a useful plug-in to visualize this lesson and off course creating kicks :).
Well done, Oscar!
And...the good thing for me: It can be "transferred" to other synths/DAW's with ease (I use Bitwig Studio, where these tips can easily be realized inside the built-in modualr system, The Grid)
Go on like this! 👍👍👍
Excellent video !
From first day I started to use punchbox years ago … i got dorectly to sine … took some time to learn the controls … but the results … are the best
Super clear-- thanks!
There's so many great kick synth plugins, too - they make it a lot easier to get started. Punchbox is great, though I haven't extensively used it. I was a huge fan of Kick2 for a while, but recently I've moved to Vult Knock as my primary kick synth. It has to run within VCV Rack, but sounds just amazing and has exactly the controls needed for shaping it like I want to.
Great video explanation. I would like to add that somethings can sounds great on their own but feel different in a mix so get your kick to a place that sounds good and then just write music and dial the kick to taste once the other sounds are in the mix.
Wicked mate 🙌
Nice tips! I love Punchbox for kicks. Have you tried using emphasis/de-emphasis EQ techniques when adding saturation to kicks? You can really sculpt how the saturator reacts which for Decapitator is really nice given the different models they made the modes after.
I recommend the vst plugin bazzism. It's a kick synthesizer which looks ugly with a very basic user interface but is very easy to understand and use. It has in my opinion the best sounding (synth) kicks i have heard and tried so far. In comparison to other Plugins and Samples that i've tried, it sounds phenomenal. For Beginners i would suggest to use one of the presets (only very few are included) and try to tweak them. A good start are the Presets "chill kick" and "full on" kick. With the Parameter "fstart" you can control how "bright" it sounds (it's simply a high cut filter) with the Parameter "fEnd" you can pretty much tune the basic harmonic / punchline of the kick. (Usually a setting between 56-65Hz will do just fine).
Thanks for this perspective on kick drums. I think it is really one of the more difficult sounds to synthesize, because it is so short but still "feature" rich.
It's the most important element in dance music
@@oscillatorstorm I'm glad you got it 🌻
Oh man, I know that frustration! Not just for kicks, but for all parts of composing. I'm currently reworking a track that I never really felt completely satisfied with (using sampled kicks), but then I went back into it changing the kick and its parameters and now it's really shaping up (now has more energy and feels faster)! So, in extension of sculpting the kick (and every other sound), taking a break from it can actually be incredibly beneficial. Thanks for the video, I will try using synthesized kicks next.
Also, would you ever consider doing track analysis again like you did with KAS:ST? That was really interesting for me to see.
I remember designing my own kicks for my EP and it was kind of nightmare. Fun, yeah, but I’ve redone them many times because when I’d listen to those kicks on my phone or just some time after they’d sound like crap, every time.
Looks like a useful plugin, this Punchbox. I usually use Operator for stuff like this. And a looong chain of effects :)
HAHAHAHAH "WHAT IS LIFE"!
AWESOME video as usual! yeah using samples is very cool but there's so much fun designing your own stuff. So this video is GOLDEN
😂
Nice tutorial, thanks Oscar! 9:25 sounded a lot like kick+rumble from Space Date to my ear
Gracias, saludos desde México 🇲🇽❤️
awesome!!! thank you so much!
Great resultant kick drum - did I miss a previous video about the rumble?
Nice Adam's too!
Thank you!
thanks for sharing
This is a science channel that is often about music. Just great. 😀
Great video! Oscar, do you every synthesize a kick drum using Eurorack modules then sampling that and bringing into DAW? Just wondering how Eurorack comes into your music creation for music, specifically techno. Thanks for all the hard work you do for these videos, they/re gold!
THANKS!
You can make some savage kicks using the skew, fold and phase modulation parameters of Bitwig's sine osc, especially for enhancing the transient
Minor correction at 4'5" it is a spectrogram not a spectrum analyzer. Love your videos Oscar. Keep up! :🔊
Thank you, thank you, thank you , thank you. My four to the floor thank you:)
Anyone else notice how techno kicks are slowly evolving into early hard-bass kicks lately? Like '00-'05 hard-bass and I think this demo kinda proves it...
Bitte ein Bit
Props to you if you get that reference.
Zalig dat er toch nog mensen (uit Belgie er bovenop met techno en dance) die Reason gebruikt. Al veel geleerd en tips gezien. Dus mersie, makker!! Greetz van Lectreau
D16 Punchbox 💛
fun thing about kick and bass, there is the notion of the deeper i go in frequency the deeper and darker the sound, but funnily enough from a certain threshold sub is more fellt than conciously heard, so the area around 70-100hz can sound darker and deeper depending on the song than a kick who peaks at 40-60hz... and in any case, pitch in the subregion is hard for humans to distinguish, much less hard than 200-1000hz, this area has a lot more effect on the depth and darkness of a track than its sub
dont go deeper in frequency with sub, kick and bass just for the sake of getting a "deeper" and "darker" sound, it's placebo ;)
IMO the trick here is to mix synthesis and samples. The BigKick VST is brilliantly good at this!
Hey,
Do you have plans to explain how to approach a live set with Bitwig or Ableton live?
Cheers,
Alex
An approach that isn't talked about as often as it deserves is making the initial sweep end at 200hz, and make the tail slowly fall down to 40hz... Makes it very powerful
You are the BEST techno instructor EVER. Thanks for your amazing videos!
Nice intro. I thought I was beamed back to the 1997 internet for a second. ;-D
Thumbs up for overcoming the urge to quit 💪
🎉🎉
Hey Oscar, good tutorial, thanks for the work. You can close your macbook if you use an external monitor 😉
Maybe he wants to use both...😉
❤
Thanks, Oscar! I wish that my TR8s had all of these perimeters, i am trying to do similar sound design, with the saturation and compression in the machine, which isn't as good as a kick VST but it's got a decent amount of controls, just got to read the manual about how their controls work on my kick...
i have SPAN "oscilloscope" on my master, need to try to find a setting that shows the freq better like what you have there.
You can - use the FM Models. Either the dedicated kick model, of the perc model which allows chromatic tuning.
@@embersandash James at F9 has a video, showed how tuning your kick to the bass can cause destructive interference, where your bass can cause phase issues with your kick if they're tuned to the same note.
@@isaac.anthony sure that’s possible if they don’t have the same phase - if they do, then there shouldn’t be phase conflicts. I don’t know if the Roland FM drum models reset the phase on trigger, but I was responding to your comment about having more in-depth kick drum programming like with punchbox or kick 2. Using the FM models introduced in 2.5, you can synthesize kick drums from signs with pitch and amp envelopes, but also using FM synthesis (with its own envelope).
But speaking of tuning drums, you can tune the kick using the perc model to a note that isn’t the bass line but compliments it like a 5th or a 3rd. Fairly common approach I think.
also, i was told all of the drums on TR8S are "tuned" to C by default...
these kicks are good man.
Wish i could find a way to make my own kicks less clicky 😑
What do you use to display yourself in the video in the top left corner in a circle?
Ps: Thanks a lot! :)
Anyone know how to do start and end frequency on serum?
@OscarUnderdog Have you ever tried Kick 2 by Sonic Academy? You can shape the kicks exactly how you like.
At 8 mins we can see how complex is to get that great kick sound.
Two sounds playing at the same time, usually, ruin your kick.
An oscilloscope and a great understanding of what you are seeing is needed.
The first part of the blending process starts filtering frequencies that probably are clashing...
Thank you for the vídeo!!!!
The concept was spread...!!!
Two sounds as in kick layers or as kick and clap/snare? I don't agree either way, hahah, but aligning phases is important, flipping phases of sounds until it sounds right. Sometimes i flip the phase of a bassnote just to make it blend right with the kick!
@alfberger3150 My point is, low frequencies and all those harmonics from almost any acoustic bass drum are, usually, like two alpha dogs in the same room at the same time.
It demands to manage a lot.
Unless you don't care about how worse they sound together or you can't even listen to the damage. (kinda joke)
Phase flipping can't solve all problems.
So, it demands a crossfading, sometimes a highpass filter on some of them, and to watch the results using a multiple inputs oscilloscope (I suggest you Psyscope, it's free and sufficient) would be a good decision.
I use to (trying) mimic kicks on Kick 2 and man, less than a hair-thin move and your kick sounds differently.
And used to work on an AKAI MPC 60 in '90 producing and putting 2 or 3 different kicks at the same time was very common. So, in my experience, layering multiple elements with low frequencies and harmonics is not an easy task.
@@marceloribeirosimoes8959 I don't understand everything you are trying to say, but yeah, it isn't easy. What i've been doing recently is volume automating my bass or rumble, make sure that the automation goes to it's lowest point at the kicks transient(that's why i use automation and not sidechain) making my kick a bit too clicky and then compress and/or distort my kick and bass a bit together. Multiband compression can be nice to, i use maximus, make the lows mono and compress heavily, a bit less for mids, and the least for the highs, then adjust dry/wet. I usually don't bother getting the oscilloscope out and just resample kick and bass together, zoom in so i can see every oscillation and adjust the sidechain curve, compression, levels and so on!
Kickdrum synthesis is a _pain in the *ss_ to say the least! Unfortunately the style of kickdrums that I'm looking for are not that easy to come by and tutorials this level of specific are simply non existent.. So some 12 years back I started to dive down into that "journey" of figuring out how to synthesize my own layers and then piece them together to kicks.
I think I'm at a point where I finally have a good understanding of how kickdrums are structurally put together - although the main takeaway lesson I picked up over the years is: If you haven't started yet, do yourself a favour and just invest the time to look up decent samples.. 🤣🤣
Kick 2 > all for instance, with powerfull enveloppe shapping, The better kick is the one you make specially for your track
where were you when i was in "kick noir" early 00's ??
I have to recommend Kilohearts Disperser plug-in for this-it completely changed how I make kicks. It allows you to sculpt frequency sweeps at the effect stage so you can feed it incredibly short, transient material and turn that into a buttery kick. The same technique can be used on synth stabs or bass lines to perceptually thicken them up without distorting them or increasing volume. I got the RE version for Reason but the VST works the same.
Can your recommend some studio headphones between 50-100€?
So what was that thing you mention at the beginning where you were getting lost??? I thought I was in for a treat but in the end there was no other info that just basic sweep a sine, add transient, saturate.
I kept trying to use a 909 kick as the basis, and wasnt getting the results i wanted!
@OscarUnderdog ah ok. I was hoping for some insight into the amount and parameters for compression, the amount of saturation/distortion and the mixing levels of the kick respective to the rest of the mix, which is what drives me crazy and kind of going in circles...
Hello Oscar, I've been trying to use the support mail given in the underdog page but it gives me an error when i try to send an e-mail, please is there another way to have support in any matter involving your courses ?
Best rumble rack?
Haha I can relate
Production music live has some of the best kick samples
Decapitator aliases like fk, that's going to effect the sound. I prefer to us Saturn 2 as it has oversampling
How can i view audio frequency as text like you have in the tutorial ?
Thats izotope insight!
can somebody pls help me? ALL kickdrum samples i have in all my samplepacks have a high ringing to the subbass, if i play them outside of the DAW they sound normal and dont have the high fieping sound, but as soon as i load them in my DAW they give me that high frequency sound, and if i export that sample again the wave form looks completely fucked up....i also have this prob with deep bass sounds from syntheziser plugins there is also that high fieping sound layered over the subbass - no EQs or compresses....i have no idea what that is, can somebody pls help me :(
Is this a sample rate issue? Try setting ir audio engine to 44khz or 48khz and see if it persists?
what's the vst ?
Kick2. Just tweak the envelope until it vibrates in a nice way with the rest of the track and gels with the bassline. Easy peasy
2:11 全く共感する内容で笑った🥺僕も結局909に頼ってしまう。しかし、問題は909が無いことである🤔
i honestly don't know what's going on anymore. i've looked at so many kick and bassline videso and now i know less than before. i'd like to know WHAT is too much lowend, how much lowend should a kick have, how much should a bassline have. should it drone or not ?
Nice video...but you're right...there is tons of great Kicks out there. Why should i take tons of time for knob fiddeling? 😜 ❤️☮️☯️❤️☮️☯️❤️
cause you have greater opertunity to change it, adding movement, over 1 bar or over32 bars
@@keithlane4705 maybe you're right? But i could not find anything on your channel that would proof what you just said !!! You know....im a musician and producer...NOT a knob fiddler. 😜
@@DeadManDesert im not even working with ableton. There is no wrong or right anyway. I just don't want to waste time. The average listener does not come to your channel and listen close to your kick. They like your song or they don't. Ok...the first impression is important...but whats your kick worth when the song is crap...😜 NOTHING !!!
The other thing is...less is sometimes more. Try to make a song with less than 15 tracks in your mixer and find a vibe that don't need more tracks. That makes mixing even easier... sometimes...😜
I was a guitar player in some Rock Bands in the 90s...i would have never had the idea to build my own guitar...😉
Don't get me wrong...there is always a "better" way...but i have no commercial goal with my music. I just want to upload some music as quick as possible. It's more a therapy for me. 😉
@@JoyfulWAVE Maybe you don't need as much control for your particular genre, but for kick-centered genres like hardstyle and techno it certainly has added value to be able to precisely shape the kick imo.
@@DeadManDesert it's an endless discussion. Sure your way will always be the better way...(at least for you😉) But i could not find ONE track on your channel. So we better stop this discussion at this point. 😁
Whenever I add a click sample in Punchbox (and they have a lot to choose from) I don't like the result. I also didn't like it in this video^^...it always feels disconnected to the kick. Like a rimshot or a close hihat playing at the same time.
Try adding some sampled noise, like tape hiss, pink noise or something else. Can be more subtle and just add interest in the upper frequencies 😊
As somebody who has made hardstyle kicks from scratch, I really felt that sorrowful questioning of your life.
Dude wanted to quit of making music because of kick sound, let that sink for a second.
It’s true hahaha
I wouldn't recommend samples, I've been making my own kicks since I started 18 years ago and I'm very happy with my kick designs now. :)
Just get a volca kick ;)
I have to admit that Ableton (live 11) is ugly as hell and has Atari graphic style, but it has very good sound quality. Audio files and vst synths sound great similar as in STUDIO ONE 5.
marry me!
Its all about taste...
and evrybody have different tatste buds...
no
in the end taste is the most important, but in the beginning you need to get it right technically. Otherwise it will just lack behind sonically. (Speaking of phase cancellation, Rythm etc.)
No it isn't.
this is just what people without taste would say
@@dreamlandsociety5842 What do you mean?
I’m probably the only one that thinks this is funny but cc says it’s another video about cake drums
less lens breathing fx pls, makes me feel ill
You are too technical!!! We don't understand many things... Think about the noobs who don't necessarily understand English, translated by CZcams...... We want visual and sound examples... and from scratch if he do you like, that is to say, what Ableton live offers basic..... Like the Kick 909 Tune5d for example..... Thank you man ;)😏
Tu est trop dans la technique...!!! On ne comprends pas grand choses...Penses un peu aux noobs qui ne comprends pas forcément l'englais, traduit par CZcams...... On veut des exemples visuels et sonors... et a partir de zero s'il te plait, c'est a dire, de se qu'Ableton live propose de base..... Genre la le Kick 909 Tune5d par exemple..... Merci man 😁
OR maybe do your homework first?
Get the correct a kick right and then spend more time on better synth parts. It’s what’s sorely missing in a lot of cookie cutter techno.
I’d much rather hear a soulful poorly produced 90s techno track than the super punchy crap that make up so much techno these days. 😢
Pro tip.. just buy gear