WW2 Fighter Pilot Experience Levels
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- What are some common denominators among the top scoring fighter pilots of World War Two? Experience levels? College Degrees? Scholastic aptitude?
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I met Pappy Boyington in the early 80's. He was the Grand Marshall at the veterans day parade in Lebanon Oregon. I was in the National Guard local unit and was in the Color Guard. Fresh out of training at Ft. Benning and just promoted to E-2. By far the youngest member in the Color Guard. We got to meet him after the parade. I was last in line. I had read his book twice by then. As everyone met him they all addressed him as Major. I think because everyone was going off the TV series a few years before. I addressed him as Colonel. Knowing he retired as a Lt. Colonel. He got a great big grin and firmed his grip. I asked him if he would mind signing my copies of his book. I had one hardback and on soft. He told me to come to the VFW and he would be happy to sign it. At 17 I drank a beer with a legend and talked with him about his career. He had something stronger. I stuck to beer because my Mom and Dad were there to. It isone of the finest memories of my life.
Wow, just Wow!
My two minute meeting with Robert Plant pales in comparison.
Awesome
That would have been amazing. He is my childhood hero from the pilot episode of Baa Baa Black Sheep. After I read his book at age 12, I was hooked.
I about lost my coffee through my nose at, "he wasn't a martial artist but he played hockey so I count that"
Many College level or even professional level athletes move onto MMA and preform really well. Dominick Reyes who in most people's opinion was the first man to beat Jon Jones in a fight had a backround in Playing College Football and even Professional Canadian Football. Featherweight champ Alexander Vokanovski played Professional Rugby before transitioning to fighting. There is literally dozens of UFC guys that got their athletic start in non combat sports.
Well, I went to a fight once, and a hockey game broke out, so…
Certain skill sets transition into other things really well. Although I think what you're seeing there is a case of exceptional athletes transitions well because of athleticism and training discipline.
Hockey is definitely a martial art. The skill required to beat a man half to death while ice skating is profoundly underestimated by the layman.
Bong is also supposed to very a good shot when bird hunting.
Some learners are slow because they seek an underlying knowledge map that has deep and broad integrity. Some slick learners are easily satisfied with limiting explanations. With German aces, glider training must have been a big help in knowing one's energy budget.
they used gliders because treaty prevented them military aviation until they started to break that treaty. so gliders were kind of excuse "look its only for fun"
@@jebise1126 I don't see how this ties to the original comment.
Amen to that.
You see the same phenomenon in the professional world. There are people who are regarded as procrastinators and are hated by their managers because everything seems to be left to the last minute, but in reality those people are constantly refining their solutions as they test them against reality and account for potential problems and boundary conditions. They are unable to "just do it" in a less than optimal manner and their solutions are usually better than average, which unfortunately is not something often all that valued by employers.
@@jebise1126
jebem te. actually everything the Nazi war machine did prior to the war was done in as much secrecy and deception as possible.
that along with the distraction of the world wide depression which lasted through the thirties made it easy to assemble the personnel needed for the politicomilitary system which was so ready as the rest of the Western countries were so not ready.
of course Hitler blew it by starting the war in 1939 as his military commanders wanted to wait until 1945.
As a former instructor myself I am familiar with waiting for the light bulb to come on for a student, and then seeing them catch up and even excel. If you ever want to share your theory on this with your viewers I'd be interested.
This fits the profile fex Erich Hartmann (losing his leader and running out of fuel on the first sortie) and my experience as a "pixel starship capsuleer".
Same thing happens with learning/teaching high performance race track driving and developing what is known as racecraft.
The British ace Robert Tuck was almost kicked out of flight school because he couldn't fly in a straight line. He was continually using small control inputs to chase every motion of the aircraft resulting in a jerky wobbling flight path. During one last test flight before being kicked out he realized he was doing terribly, sunk into a deep funk and just flew the last part of the flight depressed and not paying attention. When he landed the instructed congratulated him on how much improved his flying was during the second half of the flight.
Hi Gort, I'm frankly shocked at how many people are asking for exactly that. I'm not going to make an entire video about it, but I'll tack it on to the end of an upcoming video.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles As a CFI and Line Check Pilot, I would also be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
As a state champ wrestler in a former life (at least, that's what it feels like in this crappy aged version of my body), I can say that I'm not surprised that we're well represented amongst combat aces. Boxing, wrestling, and other one-on-one combat sports are perfect training for any task where you need to have extreme mental toughness and focus under tough circumstances (like getting punched in the face or shot at). All sports are proxies for war, but combat sports come the closest to the real thing.
I’d also say it sharpens reactions and improves physical conditioning which is very important for fighter pilots. Also, anyone who plays aggressive sports will probably fly aggressively as well. It’s built into their character.
As to artists being better pilots I’m not sure how that plays into it. Perhaps tuning an airplane and learning its feel is similar in a way to how you interact with a musical instrument or abstract concepts needed to visualize artwork allows you to visualize the air combat tactics in 3 dimensions better. IDK. Interesting how such skill sets cross over to what seems like unrelated things.
Thats true!
I would suggest timing. Both sports and music require a certain ability to time movements and coordinate other movements within that time. I believe this concept would be a particular advantage when aiming to fire your guns from a moving platform to another moving platform target.
As a Frenchman, seeing Pierre Clostermann being talked about makes be really happy, reading of his last flight before handing back his Tempest MkV in The Flying Circus had me in tears
Also Flying, Martial arts and Music require high amount of discipline, meaning these Aces were used to working in a framework which is bound to strict rules, as such they were probably more able to keep their mind clear when in combat
That's a good point about the mental discipline.
“The Big Show” is an amazing book. Also hope to see Greg make a Citroën video.
Clostermann's book aggravated my PTSD.
Along that subject I would love to see videos on Antoine de Saint-Exupéry and his WW2 flying. I understand he disappeared over Italy flying a recon mission in a P38.
Le titre anglais c'est "the big show" cher compatriote ! Le livre de chevet de mon enfance également !
6:45 " he wasn't a martial artist but he played ice hockey, so I'm counting that" 😆 lol from Canada 🇨🇦
You mentioned the leading Finnish ace with 94 victories (126 claims), Imari Juutilainen, and he fits in your narrative in that he was a military pilot who started his training as you noted in 1935. From his youth, he sailed and hunted. Noteworthy is that his aircraft was never hit by a single bullet from enemy planes.
Pappy Boyington is an interesting study.
Already a talented pilot when he got to China, he completely ignored the instruction given by Gen C Chenault and nearly got killed on his first engagement with the Japanese. But he was a good pilot and managed to get back. He learned from that and got even better.
I'd love to see a series on Claire Chenault and all that he accomplished.
Chennault I believe doesn’t get the recognition he deserves not only being an organizer, but he was awesome pilot. Pre Flying Tigers he would go out flying in China and would hunt down formations of Japanese aircraft and attack them on his own and generally spank them.
What was the instruction, and what did he do instead?
@@theLeftHandedDog My guess Claire’s instruction was don’t dogfight with the Zeros, use altitude and do boom and zoom attacks using the dive speed advantage of the P40’s.
Also Read the book, "God is my Copilot", on the Flying Tigers.
@@ottovangogh9477 Great read. Favorite part is where Scott flies to the top of Mt.Everest in a P43.
I have a soft spot for Saburo Sakai, he was described for perpetual cheerfulness and good humour, in all his photos just about he has a cheesy grin. And he was an incredible pilot.
Sakai also demonstrated the sort of humane attitude so lacking in most of Imperial Japan's armed forces. He once intercepted a DC-3 over Java. Giving the aircraft a once over before shooting it down he saw a blond lady and a child looking back at him from one of the cabin windows. He duly let the DC-3 go. He was also known for his concern for the welfare of junior pilots who were treated as second class citizens in Japanese Naval hierarchy. He even ordered his pilots to steal cigarettes from the officers' mess as they were denied such luxuries. Post-War he also wrote a testimonial to the Australian Defence Minister. As the only surviving witness to the actions of Plt Off Warren Cowan RAAF, he requested that Cowan and his crew receive posthumous awards for single-handedly attacking 8 Zeros in their Lockheed Hudson before Sakai shot them down.
@@paladin56he denied all Japanese war crimes and did a two face when he said that he didn’t believe in the whole “for the emperor” thing
I remember going through commercial flight training and knowing a few hard working guys who struggled during their training. Nearly 20 years on, these guys have had good airline careers and progressed their careers in a normal way. Tenacity, rather than natural aptitude seems to be the key.
I've noticed that speed of learning often doesn't correlate with depth of learning when it comes to paragliding pilots as well (although it seems that those who quickly learn to fly acro often quickly become very skilled in general).
That makes a lot of sense, and matches my experiences.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles if you're ever in Zermatt, give a shout - would love to take you for a tandem flight in front of the Matterhorn 🙂
(@flyzermatt)
I have a small sample size for myself, but I usually need a little bit more time to "get" a physical skill, like playing guitar, learning American football.
I tend to run my mind in parallel to the activity, so I have a harder time to just react to what I am told, I constantly think about it (sometimes overthink).
However, the moment I can join the two I not only know what to do, but why I do it.
Another thought that comes to mind is that in my casual reading of WW2 fighter ace flying, most of the good ones seem to have experience with shooting rifles and handguns, often were hunters, and understood leading the prey with your sights. Joe Foss is a great example. I remember as a child watching great shows on TV where he went on various hunting and fishing trips. The Richthofen brothers were hunters.
George Beurling was always "practising" his deflection shooting on the ground against birds with an imagination rifle. It seemed to serve him very well especially with the 800 metre (yard?) very high deflection cannon kill he made while in Malta. Was initially poo pooed by the brass because the deflection and distance being so great the German plane was not visible on the gun camera footage but the aircraft and pilot were found and proved his kill.
Another _skill_ Greg didn't mention was getting in much closer to the target than the standard pilot The Polish 303 squadron pilots proved this. I would also like to mention *Czech Sergeant Josef Frantisek* who officially had 17 kills as a guest pilot with 303 Squadron but there is good anecdotal evidence that his actual total was 27+ with those extra kills made as a member of the other air forces that he fought with. He also like to get up *very* close.
I believe it was Eric Hartman (but I may have remembered the wrong ace) was grounded for 5 days when on his first combat mission on the Eastern Front he got a bit eager and unsuccessfully emption his weapons on a single Russian target with I believe one burst, which he missed. He ended the war with over 6,000 *combat* hours which is mind boggling. Greg mentioned he started flying prewar but the guy I am thinking of didn't start training until 1941 hence my qualifier that it may not have been Herr Hartman. 1,500 combat hours a year is a mind blowing IMO ( I was a civilian professional pilot).
@@pipercessna3827 Yes Beurling was amazing and I hadn’t heard about him till quite recently. Another thing I remember seeing about him was that he not only had to do an enormous lead on a deflection shot he had to account for the fall of the shot so his nose was so high it would block sight of the enemy aircraft. And that’s I believe is the .303 ammo which means you had to shower the airplane to get a solid kill.
@@RMJTOOLS In the instance that I referred to it was 20mm cannon fire that did the trick. I don't think the old .303 would have had much truck at that range unless it hit a really vital part. I'm not ex-military so I have no idea of what energy a .303 bullet would have had at that range against a metal target. He was certainly and _interesting_ man. If you haven't yet seen it, watch a video of him talking about combat when he was doing a War Bonds tour in Canada and you may understand when I say _interesting man._ He also signed up to fly for the newly formed/created Israeli airforce and his death is also interesting.
My father was a good shot on clay pigeon. Tried to teach me but it it was like trying to teach someone to use the force. Don't aim, just scan and point, then deliver the shot to where the clay will be. I was hopeless.
@@pipercessna3827 Yes; many years ago, I read one of writer, Brian Cull's books on the spitfires defending Malta. One of the pics had a shot of Beurlling-=even though it was black and white picture, you could see he had the most 'intense' blue eyes I had ever seen. And his expression at being photographed was sort of 'what the hell are YOU looking at?'
A couple points:
- Success of sportsmen must be because those airplanes had, for the most part, heavy controls at high speeds. Hydraulic boosted controls was a luxury that few aircraft had at the time (like the P-38L);
- Pierre Clostermann also had a engineer degree prior to volunteering to the RAF;
- Sakai's training was done at peace time. After he was wounded and recovered, he was profoundly disappointed by the short flight training Japanese pilots were getting in the later stage of the war. Those obviously got the worst in confrontations with allied pilots.
I also have to wonder how physical fitness would have affected G tolerance as well, since it's now known that generally more physically capable pilots are better-capable of straining against G loads, and this could be a particular point when looking at 1940s aircraft with very upright seats and no/few G-suits.
@@smittywjmj I guess it depends a little bit. WWII air combat is a lot slower than jet combat hence the pilots had to deal less with high G-loads.
In every somewhat modern* aircombat flight sim you would notice that the indicates airspeed at higher altitudes is lower than at low altitude, hence there is potential to get into sustained G-fights if you aren't willing to give up said altitude.
@@martijn9568 G is derived from True Air Speed, not Indicated. It's generated by inertia and isn't affected by the airflow over the plane. What IAS will affect is turn performance, and G loads can change because of that.
This is a point I often make. The allies developed huge aircraft crew training programs early in the war. When Japan and Germany became desperate, they also lacked enough fuel for effective training.
10:50 CANADIAN ACE!!! Kinda happy Canada's being shouted out for more than maple syrup n hockey, almost brings a tear to my eye.
(Love the videos by the way)
The connection between martial arts and hockey reminds me of the old quip; "I went to the fights and a hockey game broke out".
Hey Greg. That DCS server is the server I created and host for our group, Wolf Pack. Glad you are enjoying it. I welcome anyone who is a warbirds fan to come check it out.
Thanks Jerry, I'll be there on my days when I'm not traveling. I love the server, although I would like a few more AI low level bomber targets, A-20s and Mossies :)
I'd love to hear your explanation for why people who take longer to learn end up doing better. Love the videos!
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer seems to be one of the few who bucks the trend. Although he was a glider pilot at school he was only 19 when he began flying combat missions in 1941. Arguably a night fighter pilot was under less threat than a day fighter but he must have been a natural talent to gain 121 victories regardless.
Would love to hear more about "Screwball" Beurling and my personal fave, "Killer" Caldwell. The latter seemed to embody the fighter pilot who was simply able to do things others couldn't (sustain extreme G's - not least of which because he knew the enemy's plane would come apart before his P-40 did)
a night fighter having less stress than a day fighter, definitely not true.
@@michaelpielorz9283 Less threat. A night fighter is significantly higher up the food chain than a day fighter.
Yes there were Mosquito and Beaufighter raiders who hunted German night fighters over Europe but in combination with the minimal threat posed by British bomber gunners I'm thinking they had a better survivability than day fighters (provided they were skilled enough to fly and land at night)
@@jasta07 Ican assure you,take off and landing at night is very special even nowdays with all the lights,ILS ,radar and all the goodies it`s not as easy as you think it is Less stress at night you willfind in your local pub but not 10000 feet in mid air searchig for bombers
jasta07 interesting reading about Caldwell in "Darwin Spitfires" by Anthony Cooper.
George Beurling's nickname was Screwball . He was a great shotgunner on ruffed grouse in Ontario. His ablity to mentally compute deflection angles was legendary
I quite agree. Those fighter pilots that shot down many enemy planes where generally good at sport shooting especially clay bird and skeet.
@@unclebullfrog7319 Didn't Chuck Yeager say that, in his experience, the guys who were the best air to air shots hunted as civilians?
'He wasn't a martial artist, but he did play ice hockey, so I'm counting that' movie Slapshot springs to mind.
As Boyington said: "I am B.S. in AE..."
And as the war went on, German and Japanese flight experience decreased, and Allied kill totals increased ...
It didn't hurt that the Americans in particular had an absolutely safe environment in which to actually learn how to fly airplanes (as distinct from learning how to fight with them). I remember reading a comment somewhere about American Sabre pilots in Korea being "so well trained it almost made up for their lack of combat experience".
Welcome back Greg please more vids! Here we are now, entertain us...
Very interesting. I've noticed that many non-combat pilots also seem to share hobbies/interests. Alot seem to be (in the US atleast) into fire arms, ham radio, astronomy, ect. So I'm not at all surprised to hear that the combat pilots also shared interest outside of flying.
Thanks Central. I think you're right about the firearms.
I agree, in the books I've read on the most successful pilots a knowledge of firearms and/or hunting experience were a common thread for most. Many spoke about how this helped them with deflection shooting.
Sailing also - I am a member at a club and the number of professional and private pilots to non-flying membership is heavily skewed.
McDonald Douglas did a contract study for the Air Force years (and years) ago surveying history's aces trying to identify the common factors. At the end of the day, they tended to be about 5'8" (something about G tolerance I'd bet), played sports, and liked to drink beer.
5'8" was also very close to the height of the average American man.
@@appa609 Good point. Didn't realize that. However, notice that you don't see many (almost any) tall pilots among the major aces. The heart to head distance is a factor in withstanding G forces and I suspect that plays into the equation.
@@davidpf043 Caldwell was 6'2"
@@jayartz8562 Obviously not exclusive, however, statistically it does lean that way. One other factor that Greg didn't mention is vision. Whenever you read about the major aces, you frequently see comments about their exceptional vision. Not just is distance but in the ability to recognize relative motion.
Sound was working well for me. Congratulations on 100K!!!BRAVO!!! Hope this means more revenue for all of your hard work.Heaven knows you've earned it. You should have a t-shirt or coffee mug (both) showing a 51 Mustang with "Greetings, this is Greg" for the nose art, or something...I would totally buy one if you did, and I'm sure many other would too. Thank you for all of the in-depth and interesting content.
Thanks Tommy. I'm working on increasing the quality of the mugs via a new vendor. I'll have links to the new store up when it's ready, and I just might make the mug you described.
Greg, highest respect for your work. When I was an Embry Riddle student, I worked in the print shop. While the machines ran, I would read reports. 2 thoughts. Most common CVR statement, by far, when a pilots knows they will buy the farm, is 'o shit.'
I read a post WWII report, as I recall: ~1% of pilots, shot down 40% of all kills. Army air corp/Air force studied the 1%. They found that this person would never start a street fight, however if you started a fight, they would never quit. This psychographics fits my experience with fighter pilots.
Look forward to part 2 of this video.
A well presented glimpse in history stressing the level of experience needed to truly become a fighter ace. Just one additional information bit showing that lack of experience gets you killed fast as a fighter pilot. German fighter pilots who left training units since around mid to autumn 1944 to join actual combat at Luftwaffe’s JG‘s had a total of 100 flying hours. This included everything, even gliders, but a mere 15 hours on type (Me 109 or Fw 190). And yes, they got themselves killed by the numbers. Only 1 out of 10 survived the first five operational sorties. So yes, lack of experience gets you killed, high level of experience lets you survive and makes aces.
While not a fighter pilot, Jimmy Doolittle had some experience flying. He started flying in 1917, was a racing pilot, a test pilot and had a PhD in Aeronautical Engineering (the first in the U.S.) from MIT. He was 46 years old when he took off from the deck of the Hornet.
He was also almost single-handedly responsible for getting Shell Oil to develop high octane fuel. This ended up being of critical important during the Battle of Britain and beyond.
As a person who is somtimes slow on the uptake but a superior performer once I internalize whats going on I would eagerly listen to your reason why such a thing is so.
My flight instructor for initial PPL said that his students who had a technical background, on average took 35-50% less flight time to get their licence.
The Stuka pilot Hans Rudel was another one that did poorly in flight training but became the best dive bomber pilot in history. When he got to his 1st squadron they put him in the back seat as an observer because a former instructor said he was so bad.
Just a personal point. My father was also a "Sooner". He left the state in the late '30s because of the the depression looking for work. He ended up in California, where he met my mom. I was born in 1942, while he was in the Pacific as merchant marine. We ended up in Wyoming after the war, and he only went back to Oklahoma in 1942 to visit his grandfather who was very elderly. I know this has nothing to do with the video, but thank you for triggering some childhood memories. He had many adventures as a child growing up in rural Oklahoma during the depression, and I have a fondness for a State I only visited once at the age of 7.
flight experience was essential if you planned to survive months of repeated combat but it was the additional urge to get in real close, common in certain sports, that allowed some to get real close to shot down opponents and become an ace. Most kills were at very close ranges.
I do think those are large factors at work here.
Bong...."he wasn't a martial artist but he did play hockey....so I'm counting that"....LOL 😁 As a 65 year old still playing I understand your point.
I think part of the link between flying, music, and martial arts. Is the rhythm aspect. As a musician that is also a dcs nerd. Flying definitely has it's own kind of rhythm. Music is self-explanatory, and martial arts also has its own style of rhythm.
With about 5 minutes pilot experience I can't claim any real knowledge of air combat skills.
But from individual and team ball sports experience, I argue that sport translates to combat flying. In any sport where you playing against an opponent in real time, as opposed to a turn based game, success comes as you learn to read the opponent's play. This leads to that, so I'll do X.
Physical capabilities set the rules, and gradually pilots work out tactics that work with the capabilities of their craft. Maybe the Thach weave is in this category.
The martial arts connection is even stronger, because success in martial arts also requires good reflexes.
Connections with music, arts, or education may be related to abilities with visualisation or 3D understanding.
Nice little vid Greg.
Congratulations on the 100K!
A lot of these guys were outdoorsy kind of chaps. Familiar with firearms and were hunters. Great content Greg.
Cheers, very interesting perspective on the topic! One possible explanation that combines this is that being a good combat aviator requires the generic will to stick to a challenging activity and to constantly improve and second-guess oneself (as you'd assume goes along with academic success as well), but more specifically: to also deal with direct opposition (which most directly applies to martial arts), and to not just focus on your own performance - keeping track of external, dynamically changing factors is a must (as in, being able to reacting to external cues while performing at the top of your game - something that playing in a band can actually teach as well). I'd say, being an academic doesn't necessarily teach you how to act in dynamic, unknown situations - even stuff like defensio presentations (where you get challenged on your research results) are usually quite predictable and more a matter of showing you did your second-guessing already, than presenting one with a dynamic problem to solve.
Of course, being an accomplished civilian aviator before will help with freeing up those channels for learning - i.e. if you already know down at muscle-memory level how to keep a plane from slipping and stalling in a turn, you have more brain matter available to focus on planning maneuvers and eventually aiming... So I guess being a clarinet-playing boxer who started flying at the age of 14 must have been the ideal training for becoming a WWII ace :)
Wow, that is a very well thought out post, and I think your reasoning is spot on.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Haha, I guess I just kept coming up with reasons why I'm not all that great at DCS and IL2 :)
Hans-Joachim Marseille is perfect example of "kills due to long period in combat" He managed to shoot down 150 planes in 18-19 months in North Africa. What is interesting that he is the exception, he didn't start flying until 1938 in Luftwaffe (at least what i have found) He is interesting figure. Natural talent i guess
I would LOVE to hear your long story about why student pilots who struggle with certain issues more than average end up being the best or at least noticeably above average if they get it figured out rather than quitting. I have noticed the same thing with my science students; the short answer I think has a lot to do with perseverance and the confidence that comes from conquering a weakness.
Another ace to remember is South Africa's Pat Paddle. He put the Gloster Gladiator in the running as a hot combat aircraft! By some he is reckoned to have achieved over 50 victories.
actually, Marmaduke Thomas St John Pattle.
I was to mention him, excellent pilot, who achieved maybe even 60+ victories in mere half a year.
What I learnt is some aces were excellent aerial marksmen because they had prior hunting experience; they instinctively knew how to lead the shot in front of a moving target.
True, however many of the top aces only shot from very close range.
Boyington and Beurling are guys about whom movies really should be made. Also Robin Olds, whose daughter it seems has been working on a biopic for some years.
I'm curious about your explanation on the slow learning (mentioned with Gabreski) issue. It has applications to so many types of training and education.
As always, great video, Greg!
At air combat symposium I put on many aces said they hunted game as a kid. They said knew how to lead a plane when firing
One of the pre-video ads wasn't bad. Not bad at all. At just about 02:00 the name which popped into my head was "Boyington." Another topic might be which fighters were good enough to be something of an equalizer working to help an inexperienced pilot to survive long enough to learn the ropes and hold his own. Thinking P-51 and F-86 for starters.
I don't know what ad that was, I have nothing to do with it and we all see different ads. I think for pilot survival, the P-47 was the best bet in most cases.
Don Gentile, full name Dominic Salvatore Gentile, was born in Piqua, Ohio, about 25 miles north of my home south of Dayton. Gentile Air Force Station in Kettering, now closed, was named for him. He is still remembered in the area, which is home to Wright-Patterson AFB and the National Museum of the USAF.
The correlation between ace fighter pilots and rough sports makes sense. A boxer, football player, etc. cant be afraid of getting hurt and can't be hesitant. They need to be confident and cant look at their opponent as someone to be feared. Couple that attitude with ample prior flying experience and you've got a winning combination.
Erich Hartmann fly as teenager sailplanes as hobby. In Germany that was Government sponsored recreation. Finnish Ilmari Juutilainen (94 victories) you mentioned had 4 years of flying experience before Winter War started. That war was just first immersion to combat flying to him. Starting 1941 with all that experience and quite bit better own bird he started downing Soviet aircraft like combine harvester.
Hartmann style before Hartmann. See out of place enemy, dive on him, shoot almost contact distance from blind spot. Disengage.
He survived war like Hartmann.
I take your correlation to martial arts to mean that these people, whether they were skilled in martial arts or not, at least understood and were familiar with the concepts of attack and defense, strategy, reading your opponent's moves, etc.
In his book, Hans-Ulrich Rudel admits to having lots of problems with his flying competency and went on to become the most decorated combat pilot in history flying (of all things) a STUKA!
Being a fanatical Nazi and a propaganda symbol with friends in high (low) places must have been a significant factor, though.
Agree with all you say. Its a combination of years of practice (the 10000 hour thing), being a pugilist by nature, being talented with man-machine operation integration (especially with an engineering or musical background). Plus, the distribution of really good aces will follow a Pareto distribution.
Great Video Greg!!! I appreciate so much that you have shown my son that you dont need to be the best academically to be a great pilot. You need persistence, discipline, dedication and practice to be good at your craft. Thank you so much for showing how "Normal" most of these Aces were.
It seems that school mostly prepares you for more school. I certainly doesn't prepare you to be a pilot.
Fighter combat includes a lot of multi tasking that requires some experience for many people. Training may teach individual tasks separately in many cases during early training. Not getting enough advanced training where multi-tasking can best be taught. Just a guess.
Thank You, Sir! Always a pleasure!
The detail about boxing experience is interesting. I'm not sure how much of a differentiator it might have been, though, as I believe boxing was a very common physical education activity for boys at the time, much more so than it is today. When my father was an NROTC cadet at Marquette University during 1942 and 1943 he participated in boxing, and what I took away from how he talked about it was that everybody did it. It was not exceptional.
That could be, but it's pointed out so often in books on specific pilots that it seems to be an indicator.
Yes!!! I suspected it all along. People who are passionate about aviation make the best pilots.
5.36 , that sounds like the subject for another video there Greg !
I think that there are several things at play,
Both music and boxing requires you to have great mental vision, as well as foreplaning, and tempered aggressiveness.
Glider pilots really understand "energy retention", as well as perhaps have a greater "feel" of what the aircraft is doing.
This combined with learning in a relaxed environment (pre-war) is a very good combination.
Good to see Clive got a mention.
Both Yeager and Robin Olds had been flying 2 years in the US before arriving in the ETO.
Thank you for the shoutout Greg! We love this channel. Very informative video, as always!
Thanks!
just as a note regarding experience and flying/fighting skills, at mid-war the typical American pilot had over 400 hours flying experience before being assigned to squadron duty. The typical German pilot had around 140 hours and the typical Japanese pilot had under 100 hours. kamikaze pilots oftimes had less than 40 hours.
Another FANTASTIC informative video!!!!!!! P-47 THUNDERBOLT-------FIGHTER OF THE CENTURY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
13:25 Yes! Wish people would keep this in mind when comparing soviet and western cold war fast jets as well.
I assume you are referring to the fact that the Soviet cold war stuff never really got a fair shake. We never saw them go up against the US forces with first rate pilots and non export versions of those planes.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Pretty much, yes. The combat records of say, the F-15C and MiG-29 are not indicative of the differences between the two planes, but of many more factors, which, taken together, are probably more influential than the planes themselves.
Great thinking. I agree that many common Jobs needs you to have ear and rhytm and your brain have good connection to your arms like say forest Harvester operator.
About the Japanese pilots - many of them at the start of the war had been flying against China since 1937. So they had a tremendous amount of Combat Experience.
As to Saki ... he may well have survived because he got a bullet in the head from an American tail gunner the first day of Guadalcanal. That meant that he missed most of the campaign that destroyed Japans Naval Aviation.
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Your pictures were fantastic in this show!! Many I’ve never seen
Thanks, I do put thought into that. Rather than fancy intro and end graphics and other flashy stuff I just try to have pictures people will like and will hopefully at least some will be new to them.
Not certain about wrestling, but boxing is all about self control under pressure, and very fast reactions.. Sounds like great traits for a fighter pilot to have.
Another interesting video, much appreciated Greg - espcially your comment on DCS, Multiplayer servers and the FW-190 in particular. Greetings from EDFN
I loved the point you made about music, martial arts, and flying. I’m a skilled musician, that’s what I focus most of my life on. But, in my free time, I love playing flight simulators, especially dogfighting in games like war thunder, IL2, etc. I think the similarity lies in the fact that there is a relatively low barrier of entry for all of these, however, the skill cap is endless. Anyone could become the best, all it takes is a matter of discipline and dedication. These are skills that can be honed through ones own willpower, and i think they tend to draw people of a certain ilk. Music, martial arts, flying… they’re all just different forms of therapy :) Thanks Greg for another great video, keep doin what you’re doin! I
It's one thing to maneuver in simulation, it's quite another when on the edge of blacking out while having to physically control the plane
for music i think its because work load on pilots was huge in that time and rhythm does often require high level of concentration. for martial arts... maybe they were more aggressive generally or just more physically fit and thus easier to handle aircraft. or maybe that was just hugely popular sport and every athlete would be better than somebody who was not physically fit.
Thanks for the extra sim review. (Have to rebuild my computer before I can run DCS, but did like it before the inevitable (computer) power creep.)
I too have a theory/explanation for why those who have natural talent can sometimes, or even often times, advance more slowly than those who struggle to learn the same thing more slowly over time. I first observed this in military leadership, those with natural leadership abilities and charisma vs those who had to learn to be an effective leader the hard way. But It can apply to other things like flying skill or engineering/math skills. I have trained people in military matters, as a CFI, and taught engineering and math to college students over about the past 17yrs, and have witnessed this in all areas.
I also discuss my theory with the top students I work with who are interested enough and motivated enough to want to become experts at what they do. If they understand it, they can use it to their advantage.
Gerhard Barkhorn record is even more impressive considered he had little experience in flying shortly before the war.
Very interesting regarding the backgrounds and pre-War experience of these pilots. Just a couple of minor points, if I may. Pierre Clostermann while being credited with 33 aerial victories in WW2 has, subsequently had that 'score' downgraded. Most historians seem at agree that his actual tally was around 11. Thus the most successful French ace of WW2 was actually Marcel Albert with 23 victories.
Also, just to be pedantic, the second highest scoring British ace after Johnson was Bill 'Cherry' Vale with 33 kills, not Tuck who had 29. Of the three Tuck and Vale had considerable pre-war experience in the RAF although Johnson was initially rejected for flying training until august 1939. Due to a medical condition Johnson missed out on both the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain but, giving credence to your point, the condition was caused by a shoulder injury while playing rugby. Johnson was also a keen game hunter before the War.
Thanks Tim. Air to air "scores" are always up for dispute. I promise you if I had said Marcel Albert was the highest scoring French ace, there would be a lot who would disagree.
As a former student military aviator, civilian cfi/ii and hockey player i hypothesize there is a correlation between hockey players or any other rapid speed sports athletes and ability to take deflection shots / bfm and hand eye coordination….ability to channel aggression and the simile between not over pursuing a bogey and not taking a penalty/foul i suspect are strongly coo related.
Nice pic of Robert S. Johnson and his chief mechanic Pappy Gould. I haven't seen that one for decades.
If you have an interest could you someday tell us about ground crews and their contributions, Greg?
ps- Ice hockey is *definitely* a combat sport! 😉
Can't wait to hear about Alexander Pokryshkin's experience in flying his P-39
For me, he's the most skilled soviet ace rather than Kozhedub
Normandy map runs nice in VR as well.
My buddy and i have been having a riot running the mosquito together.
Some of us have thousands of hours flying these sims over decades, with the ability to try both sides and examine performance charts and compare the planes. Pick any two planes and we can already have an idea of the relative strength and weakness and how to exploit them from each side.
I often wonder if I can even imagine how differently the real combat pilots experience was. Not knowing what the relative performance was of the machines until you test it in combat. We can also push the planes to their limits with out any risk.
The real air war was a few experienced aces and a whole bunch of inexperienced guys who didn't stand much of a chance .
12 minutes in ... There's not much civilian aviation in Japan NOW. Well, when you consider that renting a simple GA plane - say a C172 - can easily run you more than $300 / hour and GA "airfields" are EXTREMELY RARE, it's not hard to figure out why.
Greg, your videos are always amazing. The topics that you cover and the breadth of your understanding of the material are simply astounding. Keep them coming, please!
Boyingtons kills include some ground kills from strafing while in the AVG. I believe his last claim also was unverified. For some reason the Marine Corps just took his word on it. They did not do this with anyone else. Joe Foss definitely deserves the title of the highest scoring Marine.!
Totally agree! Flew fighters for the AF in Nam - F-4 2800 hrs and the F-16 for over 900 hrs. before I retired after 26 yrs. Got my pilots licence when I was 17 - so I have over 100 hrs before I got to UPT. Finished high enough in my UPT class to get a fighter. Flew 3 tours in Nam - by the time I flew my last tour I was pretty good - a lot of my contemporaries who had previous flying experience also did very well. Most of the top fighter pilots I had the privilege to fly with in my career also were accomplished athletes - their ability to control their body and mind was honed by playing sports I believe. I played football and lacrosse in high school and lacrosse in college.
That was very interesting and understandable for the average person without being overly long and saturated with technical detail. This means it was enjoyable to watch.
I'm reading Spitfire Diary by E.A.W. Smith. When he is describing a new person he mentions what boxing weight class they would be.
Being an older brother is a correlation shared between almost all high performing serviceman, specially those awarded for distinguished service.
Great video. Germany n Japan both had combat experience per 1939, big advantage.
This supports your point that the P47 was under-rated, as you say it faced the Luftwaffe when US pilots had less experience and Germans were near their peak.
I think this helps us view planes that start war (F4F, P40, etc) in different light. F4F pilots were at disadvantage experience wise.
I can't find it ready to hand or on Google, but I read somewhere that the top 8 WW1 aces were all accomplished musicians before the war, including von Richtofen.
Congratulations on 100K Greg! Earned every single one of those subscribers, well done sir
Please oh please go over the battle of Malta (40-42 obviously). I think it would make an interesting mini series due to the aviation activity present before, during and after the war.
Thank you Greg for yet another excellent video. I look forward to every one and am never disappointed.
A note about me, for frame of reference. BS Aero engineer, MS systems management, 30 years flight test engineer (mostly with NASA), CFI in retirement. History buff along the way.
I was a bit of a slow learner in pilot training. My first instructor criticised me for asking too many questions. "Just watch when I show you and then do it".
Working on the academic part of the CFI rating was a real attention getter, especially regarding the different ways in which people learn. Some learn by watching the instructor perform the task, others respond to having the task verbally and/or visually explained ahead of time. Still others learn best with post-flight discussion. Looking back, I was a preflight oral/visual learner and didn't respond to the "Get that Hobbs meter turning and then start the lesson in the air" method. My instructor and I never were on the same frequency.
As a CFI, I took pains with each student to find out what sort of learning style worked best. In most cases, it was never a clear cut case of only one best style. So I tried to give each one a bit of an oral/visual lesson in advance, and then a verbally narrated physical demonstration in the air, trying to use the same key words in the air as I had used on the ground. Lastly, I had the student practice; first with coaching and then (hopefully) praise at the end. After landing, I tried to do some back and forth discussion of the lesson to help cement the lesson into memory.
My impressions from having known a lot of WWII pilots and a few instructors was that most of the training was of a cookie cutter, one size fits all nature. That meant that the top rated students probably were a fortunate matches to their instructor's teaching styles.
It sounds like you were/are a great CFI.
Thanks, Greg. Praise most appreciated, especially since I never even managed to pay hangar rent with the income derived. Psychic income was the biggest dividend.@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
Regarding DCS and the online servers disabling MW50: the reason for this is that in the game, MW50 is MW50, and is stockpiled (or not) at an AIRBASE, not as an option turned on or off for particular airframes. This means that if the mission-maker stocks MW50 at an airbase, BOTH FW190D9 *AND* Bf109K4s can fill up with it. But many of these missions are designed to represent the earlier Normandy timeframe, when the Bf109K4 didn't exist, and MW50 wasn't readily available. Also, the allied aircraft in DCS are earlier mid-1944 models, and don't compete well with MW50-equipped Bf109K4s. The solution many server managers have come to is to either restrict MW50 entirely (since there are way more Bf109K4 players than D9 players) which makes the Bf109K4s representative of earlier Bf109G6s (and ensures the axis team doesn't have a massive unfair and ahistorical performance advantage) OR they put MW50 only at airfields that only FW190D9s spawn at, and then make those the farthest, least convenient airfields, so that the Bf109K4 players are discouraged from flying there and filling their MW50 tanks (or at least have to pay a hefty "loiter time" tax if they do so)
There is a big difference between the 109K4 and the Dora in regards to MW50. The K4 can run on the higher octane C3 fuel in lieu of using MW50. The Dora can't, it's stuck on the lower octane B4 fuel and just doesn't perform without the spray. There isn't much reason to fly the Dora over the K4 if the Dora is stuck on B4 fuel with no MW50.
I would like to see DCS come out with versions of these planes from late 43' to early 44, P-51Bs, P-47D-10s and 109G6s. The bubble top 51s and 47s didn't become common until later.
One other thing seems to have been common, at least for US aces, and that was hunting experience, especially bird hunting(and/or skeet shooting). Wing shooting teaches you deflection shooting, and once you've done it for a while it becomes second nature. I know the US used to teach aerial gunners for bombers skeet shooting to teach them about deflection shooting, and I believe that fighter pilots got some as well.
Yeah, the RAF was obsessed with this during the inter-war years. Even when I was in the air cadets in the 80s, the fact I played rugby and could clay shoot was regarded as a massive plus... this at a time when the RAF hadn't scored a gun kill since the 50s!
One of the most useful things Zemke picked up in Russia is that steam baths are co-educational. Poor innocent fellow found this out when he was propositioned by a stout female Russian laborer in the middle of a relaxing bath. He said it was the first time he had seen a woman without clothes. Can you imagine his shock?
As a former [retired] Part 121 check airman and IOE instructor, I do agree that some people just need more time. Even Erich Hartmann screwed up terribly on his first mission. I do wonder why no mention of Thomas McGuire? He was a musician and [possibly] possessed one of the highest IQs of the leading aces.
I left out McGuire simply for brevity. By that point in the video I felt I had already covered enough US aces.
6:46 "I went to a boxing match and a hockey game broke out"
Definitely counts 🤣
Not absolutely sure, but I think it was Len Deighton, in "Fighter" who makes the point that the most successful aces also shared a willingness to get close to their opponents - which many fighter pilots apparently did not do - rather than firing at some distance. A simple point, but it makes sense. That would also fit with an interest in "rough" sports, ones where you don't expect to get away from a game entirely unscathed, where part of the point of the sport is contact and aggressivity.