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#54 - Amiable Arguments chats to History Bro about The Second Crusade
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- čas přidán 17. 08. 2024
- Luca Johnson - aka Amiable Arguments - and I had a great chat all about the second crusade. There is quite a lot happening here, from Spain and Portugal and a big siege at Lisbon, to knights running around all over Germany in the so-called Wendish crusade, to the big show itself; Louis VII of France and the Holy Roman Emperor Conrad III cutting their way through Turkey and Syria to get to Edessa and Jerusalem. It all ends in ruins at the walls of Damascus. Enjoy!
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Ooooh, boi! We are in for a treat!
Deus Vult! Thank you once again, Beau! The world of the Crusades is so compelling. I hope you all enjoy the show! ✌
So, in contrast to the images of crusaders in armor that I'm used to seeing, the rank and file were raggle-taggle troops, rather like the confederates of the American civil war. This conversation changed my mental image of the Crusades (which I know very little about!). Thanks for this. I'm gonna look for a paperback I can take with me on my upcoming vaca to S. Spain!
@@Wintermute909 Teehee! I have used that on occasion since I heard it in a Waterboys song many years ago. And thanks! :)
Imagine being a French or German survivor or a veteran Templar and then just seeing Eleanor prancing around in costume. The annoyance and confusion must have been palpable.
When it came to the kingdom of Jerusalem, the crusaders states both militarily and politically suffered a large crisis of manpower throughout their existence.
The inherent expense of crossing the Mediterranean to settle, and the foreign systems of governance and society in the east did not lead itself to feudalism, and in many ways the crusader states had to adapt. The rates of attrition also led to a high turn out in rulers. Jerusalem and Antiochene rulers only lasted 5-10 years.
New arrivals both high and low were often viewed with suspicion and vice versa, the newcomers being seen as zealous and relentless troublemakers, and the "Poulain" Locals were seen as degenerate and impious.
The knights of Jerusalem are often portrayed as unwieldy and unsuited to middle eastern warfare with the Saracens running rings around them in the heat, but the Saracens found the knights just as difficult to deal with. The Saracen way of war was heavily based around the horse archer and raiding tactics but the knights could shrug off arrows like no ones business. The Muslim sources describe the franks as porcupines due to the sheer number of arrows stuck in them.
There were no serfs in Jerusalem, at least not the Franks, as all Frankish commoners were given the rank of burgher or freeman, and resided in the cities and as small landowners in the countryside. They formed the core of the infantry in the army of Jerusalem. Infantry tactics in the crusader states were far more advanced than in the European homeland at the time, as an organised and disciplined infantry force was needed when fighting against the horse archers of the Saracens. To be a cover for the knights to recover and reorganise. Mercenaries were also very common, and Italian crossbowmen were worth their weight in gold and they proved an ruthless counter to the Turks.
Local Christians were also a large portion of the army. Many local Christians (Syriacs, Maronites, Armenians) had not been militarised for centuries yet they seemed to take to it (and the defence of their new found rights) very well, serving as city and town militias, border guards, light infantry and skirmishers. Maronites were considered amongst the most stalwart, while Greeks were often seen as the least trustworthy. Richer city aristocrats of Armenian and other descent were often dubbed as knights and married in to the kingdom and served in the armies of the kingdoms. The most famous element of the local Christians were the turcopoles. They were the kingdom of Jerusalem's counter to the horse archers of the east and they once again proved very effective, skirmishing and scouting, running down the enemy and raiding.
Just listened to the first episode again and now this drops! You're spoiling us
Right let’s see:
>German army disintegrates in Anatolia
>King of France bottles it and scarpers off home
>Eleanor of Aquitaine causes undue drama
>Byzantines are as unhelpful as possible short of declaring war on the crusade
>Squabbling in the holy land leads to major defeats and waste of potential
>the English/Normans carry the major victories
Yep, it’s a crusade alright
in other words: A s**tshow.
As a Lotus Eater my education follows this path.
So coming back to this for a second listen, Carl B has been promising a "Crusaders did nothing wrong" deep dive for years. One can but wonder what majestic opus will one day spill forth on this most under-explored of topics.
ooo yea a historybro video
Louis wasnt a fighter...he was trained for the church, but became King when his older brother was killed in...another riding accident. His horse scared a pig in the street. Eleanor complained Louis was a priest and not a King (warrior).
It's good to find somebody whose timing and knowledge mixes well with Beau's. I was listening to one of the episodes where he's with Apostolic Majesty and it was an uncomfortable match. It wasn't the fault of either narrator it was just a weird combination. 100% that is just my take on it and everyone else may have found it delightful. I find this to be a much better match and hope to see more of this amalgam in the future. Keep on keeping on. BTW I wouldn't have known that Mao smelled really bad if it weren't for this channel. That alone is worth the price of admission 😊
My favorite because of the power of the women...Eleanor of Aquitaine and Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem and the family connections with Faulk of Anjou who was Geoffrey Plantagenents father.
Excellent, would like more on this please!
They strip poor Bernard of his clothes, cut them up to make more crosses...lol😂
Another point...this crusade doesn't have adventurers looking to secure land for themselves...there was no secondary motive for the leaders on the christian side.
You can't overlook the fact that Louis had almost died at the hands of his foes. He may have been genuinely afraid to re-engage.
They missed their opportunity when they didnt back Raymond of Antioch after the fall of Edessa, that caused the fall of Jerusalem.
Raymond of Antioch was uncle to Eleanor...very much a family affair
I like knights I click and watch
LUCA FROM SCUN IS FAMOUS!!!!!!
With the polytheistic misconception it could be pretty easy to purposefully or accidentally misinterpret the concept of the trinity as a polytheistic concept with different languages and probably hearing about it in passing.
With a very rough understanding, it certainly sounds like a Christian version of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. However rather than them ruling specific realms outside normal mortal life (impenetrable depths of the ocean, endless unreachable sky, and so on), the Trinity sounds more like a split along the lines of body, mind, and spirit. You have a physical human god that was largely limited to basic physical acts (other than the miracles) and could even be killed. More like a classic demigod figure rather than a god. This played off of a supremely powerful being who sees and judges from above and who could and did bring about calamities against the very sinful and a ghostly figure who spoke directly to the souls of men to guide them to righteousness.
That's all before we get to the concept of saints which certainly looks a lot like an entire pantheon of Hercules figures. They were mortal men who after their deaths seem to be venerated as minor gods and embody specific ideals (e.g. courageous Saint George, industrious Saint Joseph, etc.).
The worship of saints alone could lead you to believe that it was a polytheistic religion.
My first thought is that I would like to have been there to hear Bernard speak but then I realized that that would be pretty pointless since I don't understand French at all. Then I also remember that I've been an atheist for 50 years. Still..?
I know he was supposed to be a ruthless tyrant but it's still difficult to be frightened of a man named Zengy. The name sounds like it belongs to a rapid-fire comedian.
Beau, in your judgement, was the 4th crusade deserved?
Given all the Byzantine shenanigans during the first three.
(Might also be a good epochs topic!)
I don't think they deserved it, no.
I WILL be doing the 4th crusade with Luca at some point. 🙂
@@HistoryBro Looking forward to that! :)
What kind of saddle would force your brains out of your ears and nostrils if it landed on you? How heavy would that saddle have to be? I feel as if I no longer understand what the word saddle is supposed to mean. A lot of Kings seem to die out on hunting parties.
At least from what I heard, it wasn't just the saddle. Fulk was chasing a hare and the horse slipped on a rock and fell and rolled over Fulk.
@@vibechecker3168 that seems more like it. I don't think they were making triple extra large lead saddles back then. Then again I've never googled it.
Deus vult!
Arsegone of Akkad was going to do docos of The Crusades before he went AWOL many moons ago. He owes you blokes £50
I'm not getting any audio😫
I didn't either. I thought it was my devices at first. I logged out then signed back in and it worked. CZcams videos weren't loading via twitter either.
@@dawniebee946 oh yeah it's good now thanks