The Assisted Dying Debate | Roger Bolton with Dr. Ellen Wiebe and Dr. Mark Pickering
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- čas přidán 18. 05. 2023
- Should anyone be eligible for medical assistance in dying?
"Choosing Death: Assisted Dying, Assisted Suicide, Murder - Who Decides?"
Should the power to decide be granted to everyone when it comes to medical assistance in dying? A recent Canadian survey sheds light on the attitudes towards euthanasia and assisted dying, revealing startling statistics. Poverty, homelessness, mental illness, and disability - these factors, according to the Canadian survey, justify access to euthanasia for a significant portion of the population. Shocking, but perhaps not surprising is that the younger generation, in particular, supports these views, with percentages reaching as high as 41% for reason of poverty, and 60% for being disabled.
Death and dying have always been subjects that people tend to avoid discussing, but they demand our attention. Assisted dying, in particular, is a challenging and highly emotional topic that cannot be ignored. Each culture holds its own beliefs and attitudes towards the inevitable. Often, we are thrust into this discussion by circumstances - a close friend, a family member, or a beloved person falling severely ill, either gradually or suddenly. As Christians, it is crucial for us to engage in conversations about death. When is the right time to die?
Some argue that doctors should have the authority to provide medical assistance in dying. In Canada, laws surrounding assisted dying are expanding to include various situations where individuals have the right to choose death, even without a terminal illness. However, should doctors, who are meant to heal, be asked to take lives? And what does Christianity have to say about this contentious issue? Is it our prerogative to determine the timing of our own death?
Join Roger Bolton as he hosts this vital discussion, featuring UK-based Dr. Mark Pickering from the Christian Medical Fellowship and Canadian doctor Ellen Wiebe.
Dr Mark Pickering is the Chief Executive of CMF (UK/Ireland). He is based in London where he also works as a secure environment GP (in prisons and similar institutions). He has a long term interest in bioethics and often speaks on behalf of the Care Not Killing Alliance. He has previously worked as a hospice junior doctor.
Links:
www.ourdutyofcare.org.uk; www.carenotkilling.org.uk; www.dyingwell.co.uk; www.cmf.org.uk
Articles:
cmfblog.org.uk/2022/11/25/can...
Canada’s home MAiD disaster? | CMF Blogs - by Dr Trevor Stammers
People facing 'unjust' conditions have right to euthanasia: ethicists | National Post - recent Canadian article highlighting the issues of poverty and mental health that we discussed.
nationalpost.com/news/canada/...
Dr. Ellen Wiebe is a Clinical Professor in the Department of Family Practice at the University of British Columbia. After 30 years of full-service family practice, she now restricts her practice to women’s health and assisted death. She is the Medical Director of Willow Women’s Clinic in Vancouver and provides medical and surgical abortions and contraception. She developed Hemlock Aid to provide consultations for doctors and patients about aid in dying and provides assisted death.
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I am a GP and I want to say thank you for this respectful and frank debate which unpacked the key issues very well. The similar issue of abortion wasn’t touched on but there are a huge number of parallels. In the UK we have seen abortion move from an intervention of last resort to effectively a mainline method of contraception ( but with significant trauma to both parents in many cases in my experience).
I fear that assisted dying would inevitably go down the same route. When some of my most vulnerable patients tell me about how they feel a burden to their families, some of them subjected to emotional and financial abuse, I am thankful that we don’t currently have to worry about a terminal form of ridding ourselves of inconvenience.
And as a well-informed physician, I’m certain you know that such a vulnerable person, who feels an unwanted inconvenience to her family, would be, with assessment by a MAID committee,compassionately refused assisted dying. At the same time, I am certain that her medical practitioners would also be encouraged to intervene to improve her quality of life.
@@jennifer97363 I think you're overlooking her statement that "she fears that MAiD may move down the same path that abortion had..." and not just referring to the state of the law as it stands now
So, here in British Columbia Canada, Hospice care was always 'not to prolong life nor to hasten death'. That has always been Hospice philosophy!
When MAiD arrived, Palliative Care docs and Hospices refused MAiD on premises for that reason. BUT gov't mandated it creating a cognitive dissonance for providers. Many docs left and so did nurses.
Then hospices acquiesced, because without gov't funding they could not function. What gov't has done by mandating MAiD in hospices is they harmed workers with a moral injury which will have lasting effects.
Now Hospices are forced to change the hospice philosophy away from 'not prolonging life, nor hasten death' to 'not prolonging life, but hastening death as the progressive 'woke' way! Society no longer sees any suffering as having any redemptive purpose! This will be humanity's undoing: killing its weak, harming care givers, and teaching its young that there is no gain in pain.
I am a nursing professor in Canada. We have terribly lower amounts of applicants of people wanting to enter the nursing profession. We also have extremely high levels burnout and nurses leaving the profession. I can only imagine that it is because of these dark ideologies entering the healthcare system. As a Christian, I would not work in a palliative care environment that endorsed assisted dying. It is so sad to see what is happening to the nursing profession in Canada. May God bring us back to him and his design for human life.
@@ZOEISLIFE487 The way MAiD unfolds in British Columbia is that Hospice nurses aren't req'd to be involved.
There is a dedicated MAiD team with its own doc and nurses who aren't based anywhere, but travel about visiting various venues. They will even come to the patient's home.
Realize that Hospices can't function without gov't money nor without volunteers. If you volunteered at a BC Hospice you would not know which patient died because of MAiD. It is all confidential as it should be. But the patients there need good volunteers and nurses who are mature enough to put their biases aside and to be a companion and be present during a time in life's journey that can be frightening for some to navigate.
Would have much preferred if the host had allowed for more functional discussion between the two parties, was significantly more a split Q&A with two callers that were constantly on hold 😬
I found this worthwhile. It was a very good choice to have on each side a physician with a wealth of direct experience. Also, it was gracious of the host not to belabour the point when it transpired that the guest had not examined the basis for her own belief in the existence of human rights.
I really appreciated hearing Ellen Wiebe share from the perspective of someone involved in the the process. Other than her rather lacking response to the origin of human rights it was clear she has wrestled with the reality of assisted dying and is trying her best to love and serve her patients.
Imagine how many young adults will end their lives so early because they’re going through a tough phase in their lives. I’m already seeing cases from Canada where people rather default to assisted death over mental health care. This will lead to a very dark rabbit hole I fear.
So what? As if those young adults will be regretting their decision ... They will be dead.
@@flyaware759 do you have any idea how morally corrupt and vile you sound?
@@flyaware759 These lives still matter because we can and could have prevented them from dying. God always gives a person a second chance to want to change his or her ways and seek him, and make a relationship with God. Suicide will make you go to Hell and not Heaven.
There is no hell and no heaven. Nobody is asking you to comit suicide.
I’m sorry the fact that this woman is a happily professing abortionist wasn’t brought into the conversation. She’s okay with ending inconvenient life.
BuT iT's CoMpAsSiOn
While there was some reference to the Bible, a rarity in these programmes, there was no addressing of the fact that once a person dies they face the judgement & subsequent justice of God for eternity.
Death is not a release, it is the entry into eternity. Once you die, there is no chance of repentance.
Why is Al Qaeda more compassionate than pro-lifers?
The 9/11 hijackers got to die instantly.
Then why live? What your saying is we are pawns of some god who enjoys seeing us suffer by creating us as suffering little things that it watches and finds joy in our suffering pain. I highly doubt this is the reality. But to me that is not a god id follow.
@@phoenixtoash2396 Why would you imagine that suffering ends at death?
In reality, God is kinder to us than we deserve. We are, by nature, pretty horrible.
@@martinploughboy988 Why would you assume I figured that? I just don't want to exist in the first place. So really your saying a am a slave created for suffering by a very cruel God. Wow .. who wants that ?
@@martinploughboy988 so far I've seen zero kindness.
I wish, the host didn’t cut in as much. I would have to love to hear all of what she had to say, to understand better.
The host needs to be quiet and let the guests speak. How frustrating to be asked a question and not given the chance to answer it. He's spoilt a hugely important debate.
The heartless one here is the Christian.
More Roger Bolton, please!
Such a gentleman!
A BBC hack who hasn't any understanding of Christianity.
The example presented of two people with terminal motoneuron disease, one wealthy with all supports,the other lacking supports of most kinds-was,I agree with Dr Wiebe, exactly the same at its core: progressive, terminal illness.The British doctor tried to paint it as a lack of decent housing issue for the male exampled, forgetting the central point- the intersection of illness and the quality of life each autonomous human being wants for themself. NO ONE would support medically-assisted dying strictly for those living in poverty. Be serious.
At the centre of every single medically assisted dying request lies illness; that will never change. The slippery slope argument is fear-mongering by those who have very little real knowledge of the entire, regulated process. These decisions are not made by solitary physicians- there are strict medical and legal standards of care; the counsel of ethicists; as well as multiple other professionals weighing in on each case.
If my life proceeds to dementia, as is prevalent in my family, I have chosen not to continue to live an existence surrounded by strangers, no longer recognizing my loved ones! becoming steadily incapacitated until I am permanently curled into the fetal position, closed off from the world. Is it caring, ethical, moral human behaviour to force that upon a fellow human being? Not in my opinion it isn’t.
To force suffering (of all sorts) on others, based on your perspective of what value of life means, grossly disrespects your fellow human beings and is immoral. The heavy-handed Christian religion should have absolutely no role in this discussion; we,sentient,are quite capable of figuring this out for ourselves. You value me by respecting my right to decide for myself what MY values are; not by forcing me to live my life/ prolong my death based on YOUR values.🌿
When you kill yourself, can you do it on your own dime at least instead of forcing me to pay for your selfish act?
Good hosting!
Not really; he interrupted far too much.
Roger Bolton quite good here.
She said Canadians believe in human rights and bodily autonomy.
I think the last few years of COVID added a bonus layer of clarity that our moral fabric is eroding, not progressing.
She’s crowning off her career by “assisting the deaths” of our three most vulnerable populations: babies in their mothers womb, the sick, and elderly.
If we genuinely values human rights, we’d start with the right to life - not death.
What is sick is people trying to decide for others what they need, instead of them deciding what they want for themselves
I second everything you said, COVID was a wake up call to how selfish and self absorbed our humankind has become. No wonder they say AI despises us. Not even robots would want us alive with the extent of our evil. I would add how worrying it is to see the disabled being treated as inconvenient.
Why is Al Qaeda more compassionate than pro-lifers?
The 9/11 hijackers got to die instantly.
@@rir79if someone is sick they should be given the option of MAID it’s their life
@@rir79 I am a mature disabled man and I want the option. Don't treat me like a child, give me the choice. I don't care if some people may see me as "lesser than", that is a social irritation of far less importance then controlling my own death.
I found one of the arguments here quite deceptive: the interdependence of the discussion about assisted dying on the one hand, and about improving housing and welfare on the other. No-one would argue against improving the quality of life, or eliminating poverty. However it's utopic to expect that anytime soon, and there is no justification to suppress the discourse about assisting dying (or any other urgent matter) until then.
Far from anyone suppressing debate, the media seems generally supportive of the case for assisted killing. Then again, instead of having Esther Rantzen popping up a over the shop, might we not see more of Liz Carr to give her own take on this issue?
Two words i always ask WHO BENEFITS
"Lots of ways we treat humans in a special.way"...but of course we should treat all sentient life in these ways if we wish to have any pretentions to common decency.
No, humans get unique and special treatment over animals. All else being equal, do you really think it’s equally wrong to kill a toddler vs. a lizard?
@@mnmmnm925 equality of wrongs is not the point, this is just a misleading tactic to claim the privilege of continued oppression. Similar cases deserve similar treatment, therefore all sentient life merits continuance except in self defence. I note you simply assert the human right over others' lives with no ethical case to back it up. Looking at the mess humans have made of the world with amimal.agriculture, has exceptionalism really worked well for our species, not to speak of the hideous suffering inflicted in its name on nonhumans.?
Grace and Peace to You. May I Contact you via email or facebook to Discuss this Further?
@@lark8356 "equality of wrongs is not the point,"
Yes, it is. The fact that it's more wrong to kill an innocent toddler vs. a lizard (all else being equal) implies that humans have higher moral standing, special dignity, more moral value, or more rights than animals. Humans are special.
"this is just a misleading tactic to claim the privilege of continued oppression."
A hypothetical is not a "misleading tactic." It's a legitimate debate tool. And you cannot oppress animals; that would imply that our treatment of them is unjust.
"Similar cases deserve similar treatment, therefore all sentient life merits continuance except in self defence."
Lol bullshit. You don't actually believe this. A toddler and a lizard are both sentient. Do you really believe that, for example, the punishment for killing a toddler should be similar as the punishment for killing a lizard, assuming all else is equal? Obviously not. Sentience is a poor standard for determining how we ought to treat something.
"I note you simply assert the human right over others' lives with no ethical case to back it up."
Humans have the Imago Dei, and God told us we can eat animals. There are secular cases for these beliefs, but I'm not going to go into them here.
"Looking at the mess humans have made of the world with amimal.agriculture, has exceptionalism really worked well for our species, not to speak of the hideous suffering inflicted in its name on nonhumans.?"
Yes, God gave us dominion over the earth and its animals.
@@mnmmnm925 Grace and Peace to You. May I Contact you outside of CZcams to Discuss this Further?
Dr Death
Assisted dying…. we treat our loved animals kindly at the time of death, so dignity in dying is also important for humans too. The most important issue is CHOICE!
Why would there be no dignity in a vegetative state? Can you answer that?
Put yourself in a veggie state and find out for yourself
@@sysprogmanadhoc2785 I don’t see a person in a veggie state as less worthy of love and assistance in living just because she/he is in a state we consider undesirable. And my grandmother is actually suffering from Alzheimer’s, so Independently of what her state is, I will love her to the end and she will always be dignified. I don’t think of her, of a poor person or a disabled person as someone we should just give up on. One last word for you, we are only capable of showing unconditional love to those who are absolutely useless to us or others. Allowing someone else to be useless and still stick around is what true love is about. Have a good day.
@@sysprogmanadhoc2785 people in a veggie state are as dignified and absolutely not a burden as anyone else not visibly suffering from a disease.
@@sysprogmanadhoc2785 and of course I should have expected such a rude and unkind answer. People who choose this path can only think of such a way of communicating.
Dr Weibe was such a wonderful, compassionate doctor that I would have no hesitation in accepting her decision as to whether I, or any of those I love, was eligible for assisted dying. She described both of her patients as each suffering with the same physically disabling medical conditions, but the juxtaposition of their living conditions. I thought that the medical conditions were missed when the interviewer framed his questions regarding the physical living conditions, suggesting that there would be a different decision had the second patient been provided with an improvement in his housing, conditions. This would not have altered his total medical incarnation, and as such, his right to a medically assisted death was just as much his right, as it was for the other lady with the same medical incapacitation. I've been in the same position where I've relied on assistance for every physical requirement for anything from my neck down, once for over a year and once for over 8 years. I asked my husband to put the medications into my hand and put the bottle of morphine to m mouth and then to leave the room.. I later called him back in so that he could just hold me during the night. Unfortunately, I woke up the following day. I was devastated. I've since been in the same position but I failed again. I'm currently heading towards being in a similar position but im holding on for the sake of my dog. I hoe that when I reach close to that position again, that my medications will be enough to make a permanent transition into my true home with God. I believe that God my creator, loves me so much that He is always loving, no matter what. I truly admire doctors who assist those who need their assistance to release their patients who are unable to ensure that they have a painless transition into their home with God. My Dad suffered greatly for the last 6 months of his life, and the medical 'business that gave him radiation right up until the very morning when he died that night! It was the most cruel thing I've ever been forced to experience anyone to have to suffer the wat he did. No amount of my pleading for them to stop torturing him outweighed the rest of the family's consent to continue treatment. Over 40 years on and it still breaks my heart to know that such a wonderful father and a caring man had to suffer in the manner in which he did. Im glad to know that medically assisted dying is now legal in Australia, but what does one do when the loved one has been so dosed up on morphine and told that there's hope by the rest of the family, and they have lost competency for consent? There also NEEDS to be clinicians who have to be honest with their patients and who will also offer suggestions for the best care and the least painful death for their patient. What happened to my father was abuse, by both the medical 'business' .... and my family who allowed that abuse to continue because he was able to pay for all of the continuing expensive treatments ... and his doctor's bills! BTW It was the most expensive church owned private hospital in Sydney!
Damn, you're easy to manipulate then.
Of i would “manage” my pain I would be basically in a coma anyway.
Completely useless. Not able to work function socialize. To what end? Why suffer and for who? You?
This needs to be available, at least for people who are dying and in agony. But at the same time we need to make sure that people are not asking for this because the same society offering it is failing to provide them resources they need, such as housing or adequate analgesia.
I agree with much of what you have to say. However, I have malignant stomach and liver cancer. In other words it’s palliative and terminal. I’m also a retired RN who has dealt with pain and death on many levels. For me, imo, agony at any level is not acceptable in a terminal situation. And should be attempted to be avoided in all situations, but of course is almost impossible. The reason why I’m responding is that intervention should be started before ‘agony’ level. I’m sure you’d agree. As a nurse, it’s extremely difficult sometimes to control pain at that agony level. Sometimes it seems pain meds, and sedation to an extent can’t get on top of things. The weird thing about deliberately sedating a patient, the patient can be sedated but still be experiencing full on pain under the sedation. So the key is nip it in the bud. Begin treating patients at the onset of their discomfort, and realize everybody’s need is different. Take care.
@@Larry30102 So sorry to hear about your situation, but thank you for sharing that. I agree with you. Pain should be nipped in the bud early. I also think the patient should have much more control over their own pain Tx. I know of someone who was suddenly taken off of all of her opioid pain meds during her final week in palliative care. It made no sense. I know of someone else who sought assisted dying because his doctor would only give him Suboxone for pain that probably required Fentanyl. On a related note, Canada, our federal government has approved medical assistance in dying, but told dying people waiting for an exemption to try psilocybin (the only strongly evidence-based Tx for end of life distress) to “go find a clinical trial”. Psilocybin is probably associated with fewer (actual) harmful outcomes than any other psychoactive drug, including caffeine. How many people would not ask for MAID if their pain was treated early, as you say, and if they were also permitted to choose for themselves the treatment that works for them, without a paternalistic gatekeeper?
@@Larry30102 for as much as I am sorry for your situation, pain whether in labour or end of life is a part of life, all we can do is bet on good palliative care but even you in a terminal situation should not get to decide when to go, sorry.
Euthanasia could be a measure of compassion but capitalism stifles debate and takes no prisoners. I believe in the sanctity of life but believe that to resolve the issue of victims and their tendancy to be blamed for crime and cannot be addressed without serious discussion as to Euthanasia as a solution to crime. I'm not brave or virtuous but but cannot see beyond a impasse that exists in a culture of rape and murder where abuse has become a virtue. Egotism for the alphas and compassion rejected by them has resulted in a pandemic in moral disillusionment. Please consider Euthanasia as a civilised consideration for many of us who cannot perceive a benefit to continue living in emotional purgatory and have no stake in a competitive world where success is perceived as the ability to exploit another and subvert authority to those who define pleasure from inducing suffering in others. The prison system cannot continue to justify incarceration in schools designed to generate hatred and abuse. I have survived three attempts on my life and at 61 have no relish for life. Goodbye to the narcissist and power freaks who use rape and murder as entertainment for they drugged and drunk lifestyles. Clutching their Bibles and exercising they democratic right to joy. Strange that murder is more popular than Euthanasia which says so much about human nature and our profound failure to grasp compassion and reasoned thought.
This women has never once considered her own worldview. “My country have rights for people durrrrhhhh”
Better than getting rights from a magic man in the sky
@@trevornunn3285 how ignorant can one person be?
@@AlejandroDeLaRosa05 Ignorant enough to believe supernatural nonsense, because a 2000 yr old book written by superstitious primitives says so
Thank the universe some of us live in countries where we can decide to avoid the worst agonies of some (god-given) illnesses. These countries all have rigorous criteria for requesting sssisted dying, and it works!
@@RpMcMurphy_ you were correct, I did not read the articles: now I have and I see they only apply to Canada, and are pretty flimsily constructed at that: the inset page in the first article makes the actual position clearer. I have before me the papers for the Spanish position, and I assure you the conditions are rigorous to a fault- I know many who have submitted the application - it is held until further verification at one's local gp - only too pleased to be assured that their last agonies will be under control. So far as I know, these social conditions are excluded from euthanasia provision here - and I note that the Canadian provisions have been postponed and will anyway include offers of all available help before the individual goes ahead.
To be honest, I haven’t watched this whole video. This is a complex issue. Seems like a lot of word play. I have malignant stomach and liver cancer. It’s strictly palliative. I live in the state of Georgia, but am originally from Oregon. I have family in Oregon and if logistically possible, I’d like to die out there under the state’s death with dignity. Imo they do it right. 2 MDs confer regarding the situation. If terminal within 6 months and the patient opts for it medication is made available for the patient to take to end their life. I don’t like the term “physician assisted”. While the physician oks the use of medication, they are not involved in the administration. From what I’ve read its surprisingly 40% or so opt not to take the medication and go on to die naturally, as it should be according to the patient’s wish. There was no physician standing there ensuring they’d take the medication. Additionally, and trying not to be too long winded, I’m a retired Registered Nurse. I spent probably around 6 years out of 40 working as an oncology nurse. I did witness and take care of patients who’s oncologists treated them with dignity at the end of life. I also witness many deaths that were needlessly inhuman, as imo, was directed by the physician. It was hard to comprehend. So my impending death doesn’t bother me as much as the potential suffering. A DNR, depending on the circumstance, physician, and family can and does factor into end of life decisions. But strictly speaking a DNR applies if the patient arrests. Sure there are different levels of resuscitation, but for me if I say no DNR that means comfort measures only. It’s kind of funny (not funny ‘ha ha’), in my experience how living wills are basically ignored by Drs and to some extent families. I’ll quit now. Death with dignity in a terminal situation should be national law.
Again, a terminal illness is not undignified, not matter how much in pain people are.
@@rir79 That too is twisted. Thank god you’re not my doctor or family member.
@@rir79 It’s undignified if treated as you suggest
Grace and Peace to You. May I Contact you via email or facebook to Discuss this Further?
@@Larry30102 since when is palliative care undignified????? Being surrounded by family members and taking morphine is undignified? I will pray for you, for now that is all I can do.
The young doctor says nowhere in the Bible does God suggest it is OK. But also, nowhere does Godi say it' is NOT OK.. I suspect people will find it more of surprising the lack of prohibition than the lack of permission..