Michael Moore Goes to Norway & Visits a Prison of the Future
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- čas přidán 17. 03. 2011
- This didn't make it into the film Sicko, but it's well worth seeing.
Michael Moore also visits a much more civilized conceptualization of what we think of as a 'prison'. Given what we know about human behavior and criminology, prisons in the US and many other countries are a scientific and humanitarian embarrassment.
Just to clear something up:
Bastøy is not a normal prison sentence, it is a rehabilitation program at the end of a long sentence. Murderers and rapists are not normally sent directly to bastøy. They may serve several years in a closed prison, and if they behave and pose little threat, they may finish their sentence at Bastøy. The maximum prison sentence in Norway is indeed 21 years, but if an inmate poses a serious threat to society, he can be held indefinitely (eg. life). To summarize: The Norwegian prison system does not release inmates according to when society is ready to take them back, but when the inmates are ready to be a part of society again.
we can learn nevertheless
VeronV of course Moore distorts everything as usual, but still there is something disturbing about even the possibility of someone who cut two people up with a chainsaw going back into society. Even if they are somehow fully rehabilitated, there are certain actions that are too heinous to warrant ever having the right to go back into society even if they safely could. That being said, for all but the worst of the worst, the Norwegian prison model does have some merit in reducing recitivism rates for those who commit most other crimes. But using this model with the idea of putting murderers and rapists back into society is a bridge too far. Even if they could, they don't deserve that opportunity.
And many Americans still think we live in the greatest country in the world. Psh, we aren't even close to any of our Scandinavian friends.
Don't forget what them 'mericans tell you: that old socialistic idea of sharing and caring is the root of evil, right? ;)
And yet we have morons here in Scandinavia that actually wants to follow the American-model instead..
FilthyRasclaat Yeah, it's going downhill for sure. The last two decades seems to have made self-interest, competition and economic growth the dominating ideology, even here in Scandinavia. And everything in the name of "freedom". As if the Earth's ecosystems cared about self-righteousness. And as if this Social Darwinism concept doesn't poison people to be cruel to each other in a never-ending spiral of retaliation. And as if cooperation, love and sincerity are shameful, naive and weak traits. It really surprised me that it would go this way, when we generally have a very educated population. Now I think it's mainly due to the mainstream media, coupled with the increasingly exhausting efficiency demanded from most people's workplaces. Regardless, I really hope it doesn't continue this way. Especially because we have an ecological crisis that cannot be denied any longer. Otherwise we all go down.
I lived in Norway for 20 years. First of all, Norway is not socialist. But it is not a utopia. Education is free but it is almost impossible to get into a university and everything else is super expensive just to pay for the education you can't get. Housing is through-the-roof expensive. Everything in Norway is expensive...two to three times as expensive for clothes, shoes, movies, market food, rent, cars, internet, phones, etc. But hey, education is free. Silly twinkies. It's not what you think it is. Norway even banned skateboarding from 1978 to 1989.
You sound like a bitch who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about 😂 1st of all, if you didn't get into a university, it's probably because you're not smart enough. I've never met someone who didn't get into a university 😂 sucks to be you. 2nd, the gov pays for your first year - Second and third year you need to pay for your own books (it cost, but you can sell them afterwards..for almost the same price you bought it for.. amazing right?😂) wtf have banning skateboarding to do with anything? It didn't work, people still skated, no one gave a fuck. You know, we used to rape you crooked fucks back in the day. You guys still sore? 😂
Michael Moore is trying to get Americans to see that there are better ways of doing things. But Americans "know" that the USA is the best country in the world. Anyway the USA is run by the rich for the rich and Americans "know" that that is the best way to run a country. One day all will be well. It is called the "American dream". Nobody talks of the Norwegian dream. Norwegians do NOT dream of the future they live it NOW.
Donald Edward Well said!
Michael Moore is rich
you must have a low Intelligence level. you live asleep that's your american dream. your Jewish America with massive dysgenic immigration and a debt so large your country is finished !.
You know that? America reminds me gangsta rap with tiny radio and homeless hahaha
+rast nin +Gun fight
This is the future of humanity , not sacrificing EVERYTHING ,including human lives in order to maximize short term profits.
Bastøy prison is like the final step before release. It's geared for as smooth reintegration to society as possible. In Norway, having a prison nearby is usually a fantastic thing, because the prisoners do awesome stuff like renovating monuments, or they happen to be great carpenters/plumbers/any job you need. It's very hard to be a prisoner there, becaude the guilt eats prisoners up- they see, every day, that their actions are their own responsibility. They _can't_ hate or resent the authorities, because the authorities are reasonable and respectable.
Jesus christ, Scandinavia puts the US to shame....
there are different prisons.i never been in a place like that when i was younger and went to jail.ii had a cell locked up in 23 hours With no toilet but had a lookalike toilet to piss and shit in .when i had my one houer With fresh air in a yard With cameras and a net over the wall and then i could emty my toilet and Wash it.but there was no american film maker when i was there
Yep! All the guns we have and NO HAND GRENADE ATTACKS! Oh wait, that's Sweeden.
I don't want to be that guy, but there is a very long list of reasons for this country's problems compared to Scandinavia other than just "bad system arrogant can't learn from them".
I had no idea anything like this was possible. I'm shocked! This is amazing!
these are the regulations of all the Nordic countries. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland. Norway does not have the lowest murder rate in the world. Iceland does. Only one person in Iceland has ever been shot by police officers btw.. And the police department rang the family of the shot victim and they apologized deeply. There is no death penalty in the nordic countries and the longest inprisonment in Iceland is 16 years (murder) and if you behave well in prison, you can get weekends to go out and see your family, and your sentence can be reduced to 10 years with good behaviour.
and yeah sorry.. I can tell you more about Iceland and the other Nordic countries.. The healthcare is mostly free of cost. You dont have to have a health insurance, but you CAN though and then you get lower payments if you have to see a specialist or some kind of extra health care.
But Iceland has lower population than Norway´s biggest city ;) But i agree with you Mikael, all the Nordic countries are pretty similar :) Lots of love from you Norwegian brother ;)
One thing for sure the American prison system is a complete failure. People go in criminals and come out better criminals. They are treated poorly with the ideal that they won't want to come back, but the reality is that most do come back. I guess in another 100 years maybe we can try something else. In the meantime we will keep building that empire.
admire this a lot. yes i have been to Norway also visiting a friend. it's very expensive there but wages are higher and no medical bills! and people seem happy with their overall lives.
+Shannon Kringen hi! i'm from norway! and yes it is expensive but the Norwegians make more money so in 2015 it's been the cheapest year in norway compared to salaries
+Shannon Kringen Swedish nurse here. We love to work in Norway as we can bec. the language are simliar. The working conditions are great and THE SALARY!! Yes! haha. And Norwegians are great people!!
Sadness is Sweden is still great as well, though we had a capitalist gov. for 8 years newly and they cut the taxes to much, so our social system is not the best anymore like Norway. But it's of course waaaaay better then the U.S. Sorry guys, but true.
+wallenbergphoto The US is a horrible country.
the USA in some ways is very cruel yes. true. the USA can learn a lot from more civilized socialized countries.
Wen Chu Agreed.
I would go to Norway, work for 10 years, pay taxes, and only then ask for some rights. What a beautiful country, may God bless Norway for many years, a shining beacon of civility.
A community kind of government where civilization is fully developed.
being a Brazilian i feel that we have a lot to learn from Norway and the Scandinavian counties. Piss me off seeing that a huge country like mine, has so much potential yet most politicians only speak the language of greed. Specially with the coup that has happened. It's a shame... greed wheres the colors of free market.
translate this: foda-se.
+saintsrown saludos de Serbia
ZeroSuitRosalina, and thank God for that. In international commercial aviation, what language do you suggest for the pilots and air control use? Lets say a flight from Helsinki to Port Elizabeth , South Africa, with a Russian pilot. These are some of the air controllers he might cross over : Finland: Finnish, Estonia: Estonian, Belarus: Belarusian, Ukraine: Ukrainian.....ect. ect. ect. Botswana: Ok, you got me there, English is the official language of Botswana.
The social model developed in Norway is really an incredible example of human engineering but a stable economy, a small size and prudent and capable leadership were definitely advantages. Juxtaposed against the incredible;e social and moral decay evidenced in the American heartland, its seems pretty clear that a nations focus on health and education determines its future as a nation, not its military and corporate ambitions.
"It is the physical and racial aspects of a nation that go hand in hand with their moral, cultural and spiritual aspects which decide the life and death of every nation in history. "
Tragically, this is exactly the type of racial stereotyping that was used to justify some of the most horrific acts of barbarity and cruelty in human history. To believe that moral and ethical principles are genetically engineered and that one cultural (North Germanic) grouping epitomizes the best example of "goodness" mankind has to offer is ignorance at its most profound. What you are saying, in effect, is that an individuals race, gender and physical appearance determine their moral and ethical core....
The fear, hatred and myopic ignorance of such beliefs are exactly why human history was modeled on the restless bones of untold millions of innocent lives, the reason why our fate as a species sits under the weight of over 60,000 nuclear weapons.
You, my friend, are the reason why education is the only solution to mankinds' problems.
I'm sorry but I just can't comprehend the dark, lopsided focus through which you view history. Seriously, your pan-Germanic philosophy of moral and ethical certitude is down right scary.
Yes, Germany was the absolute center of social, scientific and philosophical thought in the 18th, 19th and into the 20th century. What is equally true is that some of the greatest works of that time were gleaned from the minds of people with Jewish ancestory.. You would do well to focus more on the proper interpretation of history rather than try to rewrite it.
+Marc Goudreau Your stupid. Your stupid and ego has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!! There is a huge difference that this fat slob pork of a man did not mention. Norway IS NOT spending billions every year on feeding, housing, giving medical care to 12 to 14 million illegal immigrants at the cost of $18 Billion to $22 and giving out $35 billion in foreign aid. As for American prisons. just over half are filled with illegal immigrants. Hillary Clinton lost 6 billion as Secretary of State. Politician come in office as non millionaires but during their time in office; tax money is going into politicians pockets and leaving office as millionaires and billion of dollar contracts to their personal companies and their special interest pork groups that the money is funneled back to that politician along with their yearly salaries and benefits as still being in office. They vote themselves pay raises. Like the clintons have been doing with the clinton foundation that millions and millions and millions of dollars. THAT IS WHY WE CAN NOT DO THE THINGS NORWAY CAN.
I admire your patriotism... I think what you're trying to say is that American politicians are crooked and I agree. However, you may want to use a few more periods in your sentences and try to stay on topic. And finally, stupid is a misnomer and slang for "ignorance" or perhaps "below average intelligence", the principle reason why Americans continue to elect these same corrupt politicians you're raving about. Have a nice day :)
You can't call other people stupid when you can't write you are or you're.
It amazes me how Americans refuse to open there eyes because of there ego
+billy giles please, the word is T H E I R
are you stupid or you did not finish year 4?
+Oriela Stevens please. Correct grammar should be punctuation mark after "their" and capital a in "are". Also, "you" and "did" should trade places when asking a question, as in; "did you not finish year 4?". I believe that is third grade material.
It is quite interesting asseveration the one you make lad. Would you mind telling me where are you from? You might get a surprise once we get to know the facts.
Now: what do you exactly mean by stating "your pathetic country"? is it because you suffer from envy and unemployment, poor education and high crime rates are bothering your little life style?
I gather you are from the USA, yes, the colony.
Who said "your pathetic country"? Are you seeing things? Maybe you should go and see a doctor, oh wait you can't, it costs you a fortune.
The only thing i suffer is my penis is to large
Just to make this clear; ABB will NEVER be released. Even after he's been imprisoned for 21 years, the government will keep him locked up for five and five-year terms. It's very possible he'll even be kept in for the rest of his life, or until he no longer poses a threat to anyone (the first, most likely).
Two thumbs up, Michael! Now, THAT'S the way to run a society!
wow beautiful country
Okay but look at this: the facts stated in the video are true. And it all starts with education. In Norway, college costs you around 100$ per semester. With this only, we've come a far way. If the US had the facilities Norway had, they would make it much easier for the generations to come. Also, discrimination is much lower. As the guy in the video said "liberal there is conservative here". What I've understood from conservative politicians in the US is that they are 60 year old white christian man who still think they live in the '70s and that being gay is a disease. The world can't move forward with people like that, let's face it. In Norway there is no such thing as slum or ghetto. The closest you get is a place in the capital called "Grønland" but that's not like it at all. We've got a better all-around governemnt that can take care of people. In the US they spent all the money that could be used on education and better health care on wars in the middle east instead.
Simply Mia Well said. The cities are not hollowed out as Chicago and Detroit and other US cities are.
Something that scares me is that this is the most sane comment area on all of youtube that i know off and i expected it to be the othr way around
Norway is a fantastic country to live in! I loved living there!!!
Most shootings in the US are in an urban environment. They are often due to insanity or bullying and are preventable. Even police shooting are are preventable with proper selection and training and a change in the police culture. The man who shot the boy with the toy gun did so within seconds of leaving his vehicle. Where there's a will there's a way. But is there a WILL? Go ahead men, turn your back on me. Don't face up to the problem
They used the oil for every ones benefit amazing!
And so did Mossadegh (Iran) and Nasser (Egypt). Guess what USA did to them? An organized coup in the first, an assasination with the help of muslim brothers with the 2nd. Open your eyes.
Well, any other way would have been the wrong way
I 'd love a 1 way Ticket their . Looks so beautiful peaceful yet loving and caring about the people
+chicky1785 Norwegians are cold blooded.
Statistically wise
Cold Blooded hmmm ? How do you mean this ?
chicky1785 Dunno lol. Arrogant I suppose, believing they are worth more than others (not saying all are like that)
Thesamurai1999
LOL Sorry for laughing friend ..I think their is some in every Country that is like this Friend And some in Every Culture also Friend , Best we admit this ..
Have a wonderful weekend Friend
chicky1785 You too
Hmm interesting concept. For criminals, there should be punishment and rehabilitation. Striking that balance is the tough part.
The punishment comes with the shame of being sent to prison on top of the isolation from society and loss of freedom.
Norways awesome and so are its people. I have good friends there. Btw, minimum wage is like $42.00 an hour there... USA needs to take notes for sure. Im hoping to relocate there eventually...
Eric Horner Your friends in Norway have not told you the truth / you have gotten a fantasy picture of Norway! The minimum wage is much lower than $42 an hour so good luck on that one. Yes people can earn that amount but minimum in 2013 was $18, but all depends on your situation that is if you are younger than 18, then next is $26 , if you have an education the lowest is $29 , yes people get higher than that but many get that or lower also.
So check your facts next time, as not many people earn those numbers you are using...
as a norwegian man, i could tell you that the minimum wage is 14dollars an hour.. of course, most people make around 19 dollars an hour.
I live in Romania. Minimum wage here is 2$/hour. THAT is just fucked up....god i hate my country. And they wonder why ppl commit crimes. THIS IS WHY
***** As a norwegian man, i can tell you that there's no actual minimum wage in Norway, at least not by law. The wage is usually decided by collective agreements between worker associations and employer organizations. Even those who aren't members of any worker associations are usually covered by these agreements, and the free market fixes the rest itself, so no companies will pay way under normal, and we have laws preventing social dumping.
Eirik Skule Interesting. Thank you for that information. One does not need minimum wage laws if employers are fair or low unemployment encourages a fair wage for those with minimum education or skills. What would a man or woman working for MacDonalds or an equivalent get per hour. I am not sure what social dumping means.
That's it. I'm done here. I'm moving to Norway to establish a new and better life and do what every it takes to become a loyal citizen of Norway.
Too much crime here, too many bogus laws, and forced to have health insurance or else you get penalized on tax returns etc. It's just ridiculous to need to put up with all that crap. Seriously, it will be a one way plane ticket for me and I don't care if I start from scratch over there. I will meet and make new friends. I won't be alone.
So - did you? I'm kind of the opposite, being a Norwegian who would like to move to the US at some point. Only if I got a job as good as the one I have here though, where the employer provided health insurance. Have spent about 8 months in the US total, and loved every second of it.
Pragmatic Tornado what do you love about it?
Michael Moore forgets to mention that with their prison system , a MUCH lower percentage of criminals commit new crimes once there are released compared to the percentages of more traditional systems.
The main function is not to punish the criminals, but instead to help them become non-criminals and it works.
nice vid i would like to learn more about Norway
I remember seeing a video of a prison in Norway in school. This is the opposite of a typical American prison.
This makes me want to live there so bad
Wen Chu Bernie Sanders just wants to tax the shit out of everyone and then say colleges are free because we paid with taxes...
Wen Chu Do you really believe all that will be free without incredibly high taxes? Its too good to be true.
The way I see it, the most remarkable thing about norwegians (or the nordics in general for that matter) is their strong collective consciousness, which I reckon couldn't be possible without every individual developing an equally strong sense of belonging to their system/community. Awareness to certain principles, such as that of interdependency to reach a common good and the community treating individuals with utmost dignity is what makes each citizen a convinced defendor of that model.
I could be convinced that if tendency of recidivism is so low in Norway is because any temptation can be tempered out of pure shame...
I love my homefields, and I love my country. I want to continue this. Norway forever
My great grandfather relocated from Ulwieg, Norway to No. Dakota during the great depression in Norway in the 20s. I wish he had not done that. ....Perhaps I would be a happy, content Norsk woman??
+Jo S. Norway was one of the poorest countries before we discovered the oil in the 60/70s
+Jo S. Look at it this way. You would perhaps never have been born. Your grandfather may not have met your grandmother (unless they met in Norway) or their son/ daughter might not have met your father/mother aswell, which means, the outcome would have been different.
It is weird to think about.
I would for example never been here if my sister's father fell in love with my mom when they met. Lucky for me, he thought she was childish. And therefore my mom met my dad, they got me.. and my dad left my mom, so my stepdad met my mom again, they had sex and got my little sister. TADA!
Random stuff has a meaning after all. :)
well it's not to late for you to move to Norway
well it's not to late for you to move to Norway
+Jo S. You should oblige for the norwegian television show "Alt for Norge", where you get to stay up to 10 weeks in norway and get a chance to visit your relatives, if you have any norwegian ones =)
See there is a different way...
***** Really!!!
+Aït-le-laïc Swedish welfare hasn't collapsed. Neither has German. I still get my teeth fixed at a low cost, I still get paid to go to university, I can still go to the doctor for next to nothing when I need to etc.
+Wen Chu Yes it's free, I get paid about 300€ to go to university.
+Aït-le-laïc About 20% of Swedens population were foreign-born or born to parents of foreign origin in 2011 (leaving out 3rd generation, adopted etc.), after the increased influx of immigrants over the last few years this number is probably higher now.
+Wen Chu What kind of question is that lol? Swedish of course.
Many ppl dont know that M.M. went to & dropped out of the University of Michigan-Flint. This song is dedicated Michigan Fans/Students/& Alumni that graduated and are going to help out and make a difference in the world. My song is called "Blue & Yellow", a UM Tribute Song (a remix to black & yellow). Thanks for the support!!! Blue & Yellow (2014) - The University of Michigan - Flint (UM-F) Theme Song & Anthem & Tribute
Moore expands on this in his new film "Where to Invade Next," where a full section of the main film explores the Norwegian prison system. He revisits the prison in this clip, but then also visits a maximum security prison. The inmates' "orientation video" features the guards, officers and other staff singing "We are the World." Amazing. Moore expresses his surprise at their system and a guard says "I don't understand why you think this is such a radical idea. Your Founding Fathers wrote it in your Constitution, it says 'no cruel or unusual punishment.' YOU wrote that."
And then there's the Finnish school principal who told him that the ideas they used to make their students #1 on the planet were originally American...
I WANT TO LIVE IN NORWAY!!!!
Can I go to your prison? Would you like to change places? Come live in Bulgaria as a medium class family, I will go live in prison. Please...............
Blir litt stolt av å være norsk når jeg ser filmer som dette :)
They have developed some scientific breakthroughs related to vertical farming.
I hope you realize that Norway has a far fewer people than US UK and many other countries.
If Moore likes that prison so much they should just put him in it. Please.
Thanks, boenrace! No one is used to seeing anything intelligent connected to michael moore! All you see is lots of his fat and hair.
willvrb2 Hey, he has a flair for parody and musical composition.
And some of his ideas are, while rather idealistic, morally admirable.
Everyone is making fun of there prison but it looks like it works so
Yeah so true. Funny how we are the most Christian culture but have the death penalty. Israel has only carried out one execution.
Hopefully everyone can turn away from the death penalty and move to rehabilitation.
*****
How are corrupt government officials any more deserving of death than a mobster (various mafias, Jewish, Italian, Irish, etc.)? Maybe I am wrong but on average do they not do less crime. When you kill someone than you devalue life.
Norway is not a Christian country.
Not anymore.
Most of us don't believe in anything.
Norway would have been the last place that I would have imagined such a massacre that happened yesterday, it just proves that no one is safe anymore
@Christianjr4 Humane and forgiving are the key words I got from the end. I am interested in what you view, not just the point about a secular justice system, which currently I agree with. Justice is a very important concept, and complex, it obviously comes in many forms and revenge is one of the base ones. I could wax philosophical on it but I take a similar take to neurologist and philosopher I like who talks about justice as fairness.
Justice as fairness includes what is shown in this video.
I am so very, very, very, very ashamed of my country, the U.S.
That's because often "blacks" or Muslims are immigrants, and what they do to survive is just commit a crime or something, and when they do, they get into more comfortable prisons than their own home. Also it's cold. And aren't u white? Aren't u more racist than everyone? Wanting Mexicans out of your country. Oh and where did you get the numbers from? Give me a link to verify. And the prison system in Norway isn't a punishment system like USA's (which, btw, is going fantastic...) its a reforming system, because everyone deserves a second chance, according to our system, but of course there are exceptions like Breivik, who has a weird sentence, where they'll just keep him there for 21 years at a time.
@shuai ge hahaha "Because there are very few Blacks and Mexicans in Norway."
There is 5 million people in Norway and 1 of those 5 is black or from another ethnic group. :)
80% of people in Norway are Norwegian with 90% being of western/white origin. Yeah, it's clearly FAR more homogeneous than the US.
7:32 The chainsaw story is both hilarious and scary..
I think you are crazy like einstein .. and he was a genius :) You are trying something new and you are very good at it. Please keep it on.
To all the people who say ''It's because of their oil''
Norway has the 21th largest production of oil in the world, wouldn't that mean there should be 20 countries above us? It doesn't matter if you have oil or not, it's a matter of nationalizing your resources.
You think the other oil countries haven't nationalized their oil?
***** Scotland would have, but as we don't control our own natural resources the Westminster government has not nationalised it, has allowed multinational corporations to control them, taxed these corporations, and then spent it on whatever they liked. As a result, Scotland, who should be as well off as Norway with as high a standard of living and equality, there are people in Scotland who can't send their children to school because they can't afford shoes. Brilliant eh.
yeah, most oil in our country take over by other 1st world countries and our gold mines, and others. happy learn about your country from indonesia
Yeah, but also you must keep in mind that "nationalizing" might not mean that the money is actually going to the citizens. Also, Norways has lots of oil compared to it's population. The largest producers are countriest that have at least 8 times the population.
in case of someone who murdered two people with a chainsaw, Norway thinks ... hmmm... this guy is good with a chainsaw let's make him work in a forest with a chainsaw. Brilliant. and a bit scary.
Scary, yes, but only until you care to learn what made the guy resolve to such extreme actions, and that even people like him are really empathetic. Sounds like a hippie utopianistic idea, right?
It's kinda funny we think that way, if it wasn't so sad. I mean, look at the society of encouraging fear of the people we don't understand - no wonder we still systematically murder each other for resources, increasingly destroy the bio-diversity that we depend on and ignore the poor people - unless there's a natural disaster going on.
It's almost like we keep teaching ourselves that there's no way we couldn't do things differently, so we just keep on doing the same thing over and over again.
Kinda reminds me you of the Einstein quote of insanity, doesn't it?
maxgustafson.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Positive-shopping-experience.jpg
I don't think giving that guy a chainsaw is any worse than what goes on in some of the prisons in the US.
alex2405777 fair enough, i suppose the US has its own issues.
Muskar So you're saying that a person can kill 2 people, chop them to little pieces with a chainsaw and be rewarded for it? I always thought prison was a form of punishment for your behavior, not a "rehab facility". It saddens me to think that someone can kill and get sent to a resort facility to get "treatment" for murder. I just don't get it.
I can empathize all day long about "how" and "what" and "why" the murderer felt he needed to kill anyone, but that's not gonna change the fact that he did a huge crime and should be punished for it, not treated.
walinton
It certainly may appear that murderers etc are being rewarded here, but that's not the case. It's mentioned a few times in the vid but MM should've made more of a point out of it: Every prisoner in that particular prison have already spent years in normal prisons before being lucky enough to be transferred there to do the final few years of their sentences. The reasoning behind it is that after spending 10+ years apart from society, you'll need some "re-programming" in order to go from an institutionalized life to that of a normal citizen to avoid repeat offenders where possible.
And this prison isn't available for just any prisoner - only the most likely to benefit from this particular way of treating serious criminals are selected. That is, those lucky enough to get transferred there are usually also smart enough not to mess it up by trying to escape or show any signs of the behaviour that sent them to prison in the first place.
So, prisons in Norway are for punishing criminals for their behavour, serve as a deterrent (not really working for anyone who's spent time in prisons in other parts of the world, I guess, but most norwegians lack that experience), and - if possible - a kind of "rehab facility" as you put it.
There are, of course, cases every now and then where a less, shall we say, philantropic view on people taking part in criminal activities, would've been better for the society on the whole, but the results are significantly better than the average.
Is it a system every other country should adopt? Personally, I don't think so. It is a good fit with the "norwegian mentality", giving more or less the desired outcome, but among the cases where it doesn't work that well immigrants are over-represented (percentage-wise). Behaviour obviously isn't dictated by skin colour in any way, but it is formed by the environment you grow up in, the commonly shared beliefs and views in your culture etc. It takes some time for immigrants on the whole to adjust, which is what is reflected in the statistics (there's no statistically significant difference between a 2nd generation immigrant and the "native" population).
Bluntly put, Norway's such a wealthy country with such an extensive welfare program etc that there's not that many reasons to break the law - it's not that norwegians are any better or more moral than people from other countries. However, in a lot of countries, a relatively large percentage of the population have the choice between barely getting by or become (petty) criminals - cynically speaking, trying any form of "rehab" on people in that situation is a complete waste of time and money; it'd be more productive and beneficial for the society to spend that time and money on improving their living conditions, education etc, giving them better options than crime.
wow this is unbelievable, and awesome
Also in Norway, cars stop when you want to cross the road ;)
Norway chose to keep their oil, Thatcher chose to give Scotland's away.
I live in Norway, and the video is kinda exaggerated
In what ways is this video exaggerated?
I too think it's extremely exaggerated, but that's how Michael Moore's movies generally work. He makes valid points, but goes overboard in trying to be more controversial than things actually are. The same happened with Fahrenheit 911, a movie that raises a lot of valid questions.
I would say the video suggests criminals end up at this island without a more regular time in prison, which is actually false. It's also not true that the entire society benefits from all the healthcare benefits and essentially 'free' stuff as claimed in the movie either. I'm pretty sure you need to contribute to society in order to be eligible and even then it's more or less a rare thing.
Last but not least, the economy of Norway definitely has it's problems, even despite the oil reserves and extraordinary facts about the nation's wealth. Oh and I'm pretty sure I've seen police carrying guns when I went there on a boat trip years ago.
I also know for a fact, because of the Breivik case, that the maximum life sentence in Norway is actually 21 + 5 years and it remains to be seen whether or not actual terrorists like Anders Breivik, who killed 77 people and injured 151, will get out in 26 years. If he's deemed to be a danger to society even after 26 years, I have no doubt he will stay incarcerated. In theory he could be released after serving only 10 years, but that's extremely doubtful with what he has said and the fact that he's diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. OH and for what it's worth... Anders Breivik is of course *not* being kept on that prison island paradise either lol. He actually has a fairly small cell, isolated from other people.
It's a case that stirred up a lot of discussion about the death penalty in Norway too, because people there often *do* think that terrorist deserves a very harsh punishment, possibly the death penalty. Needless to say, we're dealing with truly criminally insane people who killed dozens and not someone arrested for fraud. But still.
So lets go through what you wrote here: "I would say the video suggests criminals end up at this island without a more regular time in prison, which is actually false. It's also not true that the entire society benefits from all the healthcare benefits and essentially 'free' stuff as claimed in the movie either. I'm pretty sure you need to contribute to society in order to be eligible and even then it's more or less a rare thing. Last but not least, the economy of Norway definitely has it's problems, even despite the oil reserves and extraordinary facts about the nation's wealth. Oh and I'm pretty sure I've seen police carrying guns when I went there on a boat trip years ago."
True, places like Bastøy is usually for the last part of their sentence, where the last part of reintroduction into society occours. And places like Halden prison would hold them for most of the sentence. As for Healthcare benefits people will benefit from the things mentioned in the video, pretty much independent on how much you "contribute to society", but there is a difference between "not being able" to contribute, and "not wanting". The "vacations" he mentioned are for people with specific ailments, like for example Rheumatism. But it is not a rare thing. Norways economy isn't great (mainly because of the low oil prices), but it is far from bad, for the vast majority of people there haven't really been a change. And if you saw police carrying guns it must have been an exception because they generally don't (unless there is a call that requires them), there was a period from late 2015 to february 2016 where they carried, but they are back to not carrying now.
"I also know for a fact, because of the Breivik case, that the maximum life sentence in Norway is actually 21 + 5 years and it remains to be seen whether or not actual terrorists like Anders Breivik, who killed 77 people and injured 151, will get out in 26 years. If he's deemed to be a danger to society even after 26 years, I have no doubt he will stay incarcerated. In theory he could be released after serving only 10 years, but that's extremely doubtful with what he has said and the fact that he's diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. OH and for what it's worth... Anders Breivik is of course not being kept on that prison island paradise either lol. He actually has a fairly small cell, isolated from other people.
It's a case that stirred up a lot of discussion about the death penalty in Norway too, because people there often do think that terrorist deserves a very harsh punishment, possibly the death penalty. Needless to say, we're dealing with truly criminally insane people who killed dozens and not someone arrested for fraud. But still."
Actually the maximum penalty is life in prison, so Breivik can be sentenced to spend the rest of his life i prison. This is how it works: Breivik can only be sentenced to 21 years in prison, as a maximum. However, by the time he gets close to his release a decision on whether or not he is fit to rejoin society will be made. And if he isn't he will spend 5 more years, and by the end of those years a new judgement will be made, and if he is still considered a threat another 5 years will be added, etc.. It very rarely if ever happens, but Breivik might become the exception. And his "small cell" as you called it, the NYTimes called "a 3-room prison suite w/treadmill & playstation". Also, the claim that the Breivik case stirred up a lot of discussion about the death penalty is not true. No serious news outlet, or politicians even suggested that. There might have been people on the internet asking for it, but there never was any form of national discourse about it.
Fung15 "As for Healthcare benefits people will benefit from the things mentioned in the video, pretty much independent on how much you "contribute to society", but there is a difference between "not being able" to contribute, and "not wanting". "
I meant people profiting from the system at no compensation or in a financial sense 'for free'. Nothing is free, not even in Norway. I'm aware the system excludes people who obviously 'can not' contribute, even if they wanted to. The same is true in the Netherlands. My point was all about what's perhaps best described as 'cheaters'. Mostly foreigners taking advantage from the systems in place. Michael Moore makes it appear as if the sky is the limit in terms of healthcare, which is false.
"And if he isn't he will spend 5 more years, and by the end of those years a new judgement will be made, and if he is still considered a threat another 5 years will be added, etc.."
Right, but I did not say anything different from what you've said. And we both know criminals in Norway rarely serve more than 14 years. I would agree Breivik is likely to become an exception to every rule being a terrorist, potentially serving a life sentence until his actual death. But an indefinite extension of his imprisonment is actually still quite unlikely (did it ever even happen before?), even when technically it can be prolonged every 5 years after max sentence.
"Also, the claim that the Breivik case stirred up a lot of discussion about the death penalty is not true. No serious news outlet, or politicians even suggested that. There might have been people on the internet asking for it, but there never was any form of national discourse about it."
Maybe not *right now*, but it definitely was brought up in the weeks leading up to his conviction and shortly after. I'm not saying Norwegians all want the death penalty back by any means. Most Europeans would not, despite anger of recent terrorist attacks. But to suggest the mere thought wouldn't have crossed people's minds as Michael Moore likes to put is outright exaggerated!! There have also been child molester cases that caused the same public outrage.
I would also say the low crime rate has no relation to the justice system or prisons themselves either, but rather with how little reason people have to resort to crime. It's true how recidivism isn't as big a problem in Norway as elsewhere in the world, but that probably would have been true with more traditional prisons of which there actually are plenty.
dongydongy In every imaginable way. It suggests like a dozen things that are basically untrue or more complicated than Moore suggests. Norway is far from the answer to American situations. Nor a solution for really any other country than Norway IMHO. And it's costing them a lot in terms of economy.
It is however from my experience it is mostly food and clothing that is expensive. Housing is much cheaper than where I live in Los Angeles. Also wages are higher.
I want a prison like that...
As a norwegian I kind of dislike the way the intro is shot. The music and everything makes it look like a totalitarian socialist pseudo-utopia. Good old fashioned decadent fun is allowed in Norway guys, don't you worry
Once you travel the world a little, Norway does in fact seem like a totalitarian socialist pseudo-utopia by comparison.
This is why I'm in favour of more women in leadership positions because we'll hopefully see more compassion and equality for all from government. Just not a woman like Hillary Clinton...
+Carl Darl you really believe that...if they are from the elites it wont change
That's why I said, just not a woman like Hillary Clinton (who is controlled by the elites).
+Carl Darl I believe that there are more women in leadership positions in Norway because people treat each other with love and respect, and not that people treat each other with love and respect because there are more women in leadership positions. Sex and race do not exist. Neither of them can determine anything about your culture, view of the world, level of empathy, religion, job, etc. In many countries there are tendencies for men and women regarding these thing because of the bs of patriarchy and the way both sexes were treated for centuries. However this is all fake and superficial. Deep within we are all the same. My point being, just because one has a specific reproductive organ doesn't mean anything. The people of USA simply lack love and respect - therefore racism, sexism, xenophobia, justice system that is about revenge, poverty etc. This is my opinion at least.
+Carl Darl What on earth does this have to do with "women in leadership" ?
This has nothing to do with gender, please dont pervert our system into some propaganda for your silly American gender war
Sweden is run by women and is being run over by Muslims.
Does someone know what music this is?
quality of life is in the eyes of the beholder.
How does this discourage crime though? Won't it encourage it? If they know that they can get a nice room and 3 hot meals then why not just commit a crime and save working a 9-5 job?
Because even though its luxurious, the inmates still know that a prison is a prison. And they know that where they are right now is still a prison, which nobody wants to be in. After the sentence ends, they realize there is more to their lives than what they were doing in the past. And that there is hope for them.
CondensedReviews, and their all White, doesn't anybody see that.
there are all races in norwegian prisons
The threat of punishment doesn't stop criminals from doing anything. They all hope they won't get caught.
While I admire their prison system, because lets face it...we all deserve a second chance, and the USA usually comes down way too heavy...with that said, put this into some perspective Norway has a population of just over 5 million people. That is the population of a medium or small US state! That is a population that is 100x easier to manage and control. I live in Seattle, and just Seattle and the small surrounding areas have 2-3 million people in it! New York city has what, 10 million people? LA has 10-15 million??? So this just doesn't work. You can't compare the United States to what is really a small island type nation. I am Norwegian and German, so I am not trying to hate on Norway, they rock. These "facts" are just not fair to compare. I could say "the population of my family has a 0% murder rate compared to the USA" ..Love Norway, fuck Michael Moore.
Excuses, excuses, excuses. Try it you might like it.
mike vike Sorry Mike, but the argument "Norway is 50 times smaller than USA" just doesn't wash. I.e. Norway probably spends 50 times less on incarceration than USA. Norway probably spends 50 times less on policing than USA...
I'm not bashing USA, but a serious conflict of interest arises when prisons are privatised. What benefit does the private prison company attract for rehabilitating inmates? None, but there is very good motivation for the private prison company to ensure that inmates return...
It would be a lot easier if Americans simply accepted that Norway manages the criminal justice issue much better than America... Sadly, I admit that Norway does a lot better than my home country (Australia).
The point isn't that they spend less money on incarceration and have less incarcerated people than the US. It's that they have a lower rate of crime, recidivism, and money spent on prisons PER CAPITA.
The US can absolutely achieve the same thing by spending money in the right places: a sense of community, education and social/health services.
That is obvious to anybody who has not been brainwashed since birth
You do realise that crime RATE, and everything else that is being measured in RATE does not mean actual numbers. It's a RATIO. It does not matter how many people live where.
It's percentage, dude.
Fun fact: most criminals that goes through the rehabilitation process continue their criminal life or will at some point return to prison. In most murder, rape, assault, theft cases we have in Norway the criminals committing them have already been in prison and they have already been through the rehabiliation process. As far as I can think off... every murder case in Norway documented on news... there murdered have been in prison and gone through rehabiliation.
@StellarLove66 cheers brother
Norway is also 97.1% white
Hahaha, no. 13% of its population are immigrants.
EtKEnn
Wow so you think that immigrants can't be white pretty racist of you
so?
EtKEnn There's a lot of eastern-europeans here as well.
Marie Miller Yes, a fair share of negroids too, but not that many of them up here in Northern Norway :p Mostly in Oslo(mabad).
Norway and especially Sweden's extreme liberalism has cost them dearly these images are pictures of a lost land there are 53 no go zone In Sweden now due to mass immigration. These countries are set to be the first non-European nations in Europe.
Stupid, racist and very ignorant comment.
What movie is this from?
@QuantumGh0st Thanks for the comment. Yes just as people like Gilligan talks in terms in criminal behavior, were dealing with human beings, and we know psychologically, behaviorally, sticking people in a chicken coop is indeed one method, but an utterly inferior one, toward maximizing human well being and encouraging a well balanced disposition, healthy psychological conditions and behavior. Its truly archaic what goes on in most countries.
they are all white
+Bone Z, White people come from Europe.
Bone Z It's really funny racist people think racism is the solution. It's the exact oppisite!
My cousin's father is from Ethiopia and she has grown up in Norway. She's 100% Norwegian. If you think the color of your skin is what makes someone an part of a culture then you are wrong.
It is quite interesting, I have to say that.
My mother plays games with a personal friend from Norway. In the current state of the world, as an American, I would love to move to a country like Norway.
so nice wow!
@noodlezombie What im saying is there are 2 factors in play here, and the X factor (a psychopath who would not be a member of any form of logical thought /right wrong etc as we understand them to exist) So, for the 1st two factors we can consider them to be A. what outside or social reasoning made the action/crime a reasonable option at the time. B, After arrest, whats done to the inmate to address the thought mechanism that landed them in prison to begin with. These people seem to show it works
The prison is fascinating, but realistically how could this be replicated in the US? Gang culture is so big, I can't see how this could work.
humans naturally copy what they see, you can research that. It's proven with science and even philosophy it's just human behaviour, so if you treat people in the worst way because they commited a crime, well they'll only keep on commiting crimes because all you're doing is disturbing them even more, yet if you start being good to them, they'll learn generosity and respect, just read Les Miserables by Victor Hugo, there's a very good example of this near the beginning.
+Emile Yariv I agree with all that, however it's the conflict between the inmates which would be the reason this could not be achieved in the US. Gang and racial tension fuels most crime and brutality inside their prisons, and the guards for obvious reasons, have to be reactive to it as they can't allow inmates to be killed.
+Kate Steventon you're right I forgot about the cultural aspect of the situation. Let's hope these tensions will calm down, there's already artists such as Kendrick Lamar criticising gang culture, things are changing gradually.
there are also Private Media Companies (Corporate Media) in Scandinavia and Europe with Conservative and Libertarian Agendas, but the BIG difference there is between the EU and the USA is that there are also strong and large State Owned Public Media Companies (Public Media) that are forced to be genuinely Objective by their Charters, unlike Corporate Media that only allow Entertainment, Advertisement and Conservative-Libertarian Opinions.
Btw if someone is thinking of coming to Norway, just want to say its really expensive here. 1 beer cost 9-12 euros/12-17dollars. a bread in Norway cost 3-4euros/4-5dollars. to fill up your car in Norway with gas, that cost 100euros /135dollars. Wanna buy a house in Norway? expect to pay up to 500.000dollars/375.000euros for a normal house for a familiy and thats pretty much standar price on the the outer edges of a city..in a city you need to more then double that price.
If you're curious what that island used to be like, watch "King of Devil's Island" (Kongen av Bastøy). It is set in 1915, when the prisoners were all boys and the regimen was brutal.
The rate is around 20%, while 50-60% in the US and UK
Per capita Norway has more oil and gas than any other country excluding Kuwait or Saudi Arabia. However it's a miracle that Norway with such huge strategic resources has not been corrupted as oil and gas countries normally have been.
No way did it play that beautiful Mozart piece along with this video
In 2004 a group of robbers robbed a major Norwegian bank. The robbery is known as the NOKAS robbery, One Police officer was killed and aproximatly the equivalent of 9,3 million US$ was stolen. Only 1 million was ever recovered.
A Major player in this robbery is Erling Havnå. He has now served Close to 2/3 of his 16 year sentence. Ususally when you have done this you may apply for an early release. In an interview he has said that he will not apply for an early release, because he is afraid of leaving the prison. He is currently serving time in this very prison.
He knows that when he is getting out he will have to first pay down the equivalent of half a million US$ for the cut that was never recovered. He also feels safe and secure in prison. He is afraid of having to come back into society and especially the thought of never being put back into isolataion from others.
Mr. Havnå has held a lecture about his experinces where he ponders how we might stricten prisons his Words were: "Perhaps we ought to return to torture once a week, or maybe slavery. This will punish offenders and offenders only. That is a punnishment that might mirror a society today. Were we to build Halden prison in Congo then most people would be breaking into the prison."
@Neanderthalcouzin what documentary is this from
My only question is how are they not going to end up in debt because of all that?
Pretty darn sure.
This is the reason why i love living in norway :DD
intro song?
know where i'm going
@kennyl10 True, but the weird thing is that our neighbour Sweden has more or less the same political system, without the luxury of fish and oil. You can find a similar political systems in bigger countries like France, where their universal health care system was named the "best overall health care" in the world by WHO. The funny thing is that overall GDP spendings on health care in France is actually less than in the US.
@kennyl10 Btw I have lived around the world, including the US and Western Europe and experienced different medical systems, as well as having family who work in it.
Let me clear 2 things up: 1) The doctors, facilities and medicines were very good in the systems I experienced with national healthcare, and no-one feared losing everything to stay well/alive.
2) Private healthcare also means OTHER PEOPLES MONEY, as you said: both systems use a common pot of pooled money, not solely your own.
"can we ask the right questions" says one man who was hired for a job outside his Philosophy degree..... wisdom to know
@rikasings
"Why do you think it's ok to inflict abuse on a person, if they have inflicted abuse on another? Is that really justice?" Actually yes, it is. That's the very definition of justice. A just sentence entails that the PUNISHMENT MATCHES the severity of the crime. It doesn't have to be physical abuse or violence. It could be any number of harsh punishments (ie. solitary confinement). Punishment in and of itself is not a cyclical phenomenon. They are deterrents.
We are 5 millions here :)
*gets arrested in Norway* I ain't even mad!
Oh yes. Breivik is in Ila prison, section for very high security. So far he has had access to three cells (eight square feet each), one of them work room and another one is a gym room. He also has access to an hour of daily exercise yard with 11 meter high concrete walls covered with barbed wire. He may speak to prison guards a few minutes pr. day and a doctor or psychologist once a week or so. He have no fellowship with other inmates. Recently he actually sued Asker and Bærum Police
The prisons here in Norway are made so people that have gone wrong in society can get back on track. We focus on rehabilitation, not punishment. In Norway only 20% of prisoners go back to jail before 2 years have passed, while in the US the number is almost 60%. Just goes to show that this system actually works.
Remember that the country you live in is one of the best in the world and cherish it, you are one of the 5 million people in the world that get this chance. Use it for good.
this is the future I wanted worldwide.
that's it i'm moving to norway...
cars are very expensive as well
@StellarLove66 My bad. Cheers sister ;)
What does the coughing mean?