Why I don't make Warhammer 40k videos any more (and why Horus Heresy is better)
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- čas přidán 27. 04. 2024
- I get asked quite a lot why I don't make 40k batreps any more. This is kinda why. Clipped from a recent twitch livestream.
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/ sorcererdave - Hry
100% feel the exact same way. I can’t keep up but heresy is pretty static which means I can take breaks and still jump back in without rewriting list, downloading faqs. I’ve also tried one page rules,which lets me use my 40k minis but with better rules that don’t change every week, it’s also free.
Your battle of morgan's reach series got me into 40k, absolutely fell in love with the narrative and the stakes. Even as an 8th baby it was clear to me that 10th was GW trying to sell me something that I did not get into the hobby to experience. It goes beyond 8th and 9th, it feels like an entire edition of intro games with cut back rules.
Man, hearing what 40k used to be makes me wanna throw out my 10e rulebooks and hunt down a 2e copy. A wargame that actually plays like a wargame sounds like so much fun!
3e is probably the highpoint. Chaos Space Marine's 3.5e codex is the best book that faction has ever had.
Search around for the 40k 2e battle bible, that compiles everything about it into one handy, bookmarked, document. I'm pretty sure scans of the cards and tokens are also easy enough to find, too. It's a damn good wargame.
2nd-6th are decent, but a lot of folk have valid complaints about 5 and 6. Similarly to DnD. ADnD, 3 and 3.5 are the eternal champions, but most folk follow trends the same way bad smells follow sheep.
I agree completely, most people prefer the gamification 40k has recieved since 8th with areas of influece, hitpoints for everything, tanks that can shoot in every direction, less customizable units and more "different" units, etc and the "simlpification" of the core rules so it is more competitive. I started with 3rd ed. left in 5th and came back with 8th. At the beggining I had some fun with these changes but then I experienced the anticonsumer ways of GW and rediscovered the old rules, the old lore, the old white dwarfs, found out about the old imperial armour books and decided this new 40k era was not for me. It is a shame. Now I collect old codexes, horus heresy and the old world.
I am willing to play Oldhammer. Infact myself and a group of friends plan to do so. You are welcome to join us. We're in Kent.
Your 40k videos got me through the pandemic, I could watch you play and paint anyday. Hopefully we'll see you gaming again, one day on CZcams.
Totally agree with everything you said. Same reason I only play 3rd 4th 5th editions. Biggest challenge within the hobby is getting the right group of gamers.
Started playing in 7th and stopped in 9th when I realized the cleaning up of all the weird rules in 7th removed most of the colour from the game and made it about min maxxing your rerolls to insane degrees
At the time I liked 8th. Orks sucked in 7th but were decent in the 8th index and great fun with the codex. The constant updates and balancing means if you aren’t playing every weekend you get lost in the updates, I’m just unwilling in constantly buy new books and errata them 97 times cos GWs next power creep codex means everyone else needs buffing up when the meta explodes
8th was a nice compromise between what we have now and the old 40k. It got rid of a lot of things but there was at least still lots of ways to customize units and characters to make your army feel unique. It wasn't a perfect version of 40k, but it was more than good enough to have a lot of fun and some memorable times with!
You clearly just don't understand Dave. Product is life, thus to live we must purchase more product. There is no job, no family or friends, there is only product. And in their glorious wisdom, soulless-company-daddyfatstacks has decided to create new product, so that our existence may persist yet a while longer. Be thankful, question no longer, and purchase new product.
1:54 It's 3 years. What they do is scrub existing units replacing them new ones forcing you to buy buy buy new miniatures. 3:25 Oh good I was going to mention Horus Heresy.
I can remember White Dwarf magazine being a general TTRPG publication. But I am an old.
Watching you play 3rd with a small space marine and Ork force has me enchanted. Even that simplified ruleset was just so much more… fun.
We’re losing local players. Players who’ve been playing longer than I’ve been alive, who have old metal power-fist sergeants older than me.
They just don’t want to play 10th.
People can kid themselves and cope as much as they want.
It’s just… not fun. And those players were *really trying,* for years now, but 10th is the last straw.
I’ll be playing 2nd, 3.5 and 4th with those older players in future, as they’ve expressed interest, and it’d be such a crying shame for them to sell their collections and give up forever, just because no young people want to play older editions.
Thank you, Sorcerer Dave, your battle report really helped- and bloody hell, no one tie me down and force me to play 10th…
Love this take on the current state of the hobby! I really enjoyed your previous narrative battle reports particularly the Morgan's Reach series. I picked up 40k for the stories that emerged, the creativity in the modelling was a bonus, and it was great to look through Imperial Armoury, or Campaign books see something that wasn't in the base rules or codex and then figure out how to make it work for my army. The other big draw for me as someone who got away from the WOTC MTG churn and burn cycle was the pace of updates or changes was slower. Now I may as well just make paper tokens and slide the little chits around on a desktop for all the immersion and narrative value fostered by the rules and GW.
Wouldn't mind seeing more narrative bat-reps from prior 40k Editions, 30K, or the Old World that you are into. Maybe add a little something to the video description if us newbs that joined in 8th and later to catch us up on cool rules like flying tank turrets so we understand better.
4th edition was the best wholesome edition.
You somehow have managed to put the way i feel about current 40k into words and how 30k is better and more engaging having to convert units due to kits not being available. It helps people to make their force unique to them other than a different paintjob, I joined the hobby back in 2018 and have played only one less game of Heresy in the last 2 months than I've played 40k in general
Would you consider playing 2nd or 3rd Edition? Your 3rd Ed video was great!
Agreed, but finding people…
I love a good rant
This is a problem across all tabletop games, whether its rpg's or mini wargames. The new shiny comes out, and just about everyone abandons older editions and act like the new version is the best ever. For some of us who have seen multiple editions of games, it makes you feel very alone when you want something different than the majority of players.
Can't agree more and it gets worse when the developers of these games make weird or bad decisions.
Like trying out taking critical hits for rogue's!
**Laughs in BattleTech**
There are still plenty of pure 3025 players out there - probably my favorite things about BT is that while yes, power creep is a thing, it's a) decently balanced, b) you can mix and match stuff, and c) if you have a preferred power/tech level, you can probably find like-minded players. Of course, the disadvantage is that BattleTech is so crunchy it makes 2nd Ed 40K look fast and streamlined.
Hi Dave - it was actually Cold Waters that got me following your channel, and your storytelling with the Trafalgar campaign was epic. Hope you revisit it someday!
This is the quality content you get if you join the Twitch streams. You're missing out YT.
"quality" 😂
It’s like they’re trying to use the “live service” model of modern video games. Some things don’t need to be updated constantly.
I'm right there with you in regards to Heresy and Old World. I don't want to chase the meta and buy new books every few years.
I'm also not giving GW anymore money if at all possible. They have shown they don't care about the customers
I don’t miss the arguments that templates cause nor do I miss vehicles feeling incredibly bad because they so commonly got blown up immediately or stunned the entire game.
For me, the push for narrative style emergent storytelling battle reports during the pandemic is what got me into 40k. Now that I finally have the free time and some spare change, the entirety of 40k has moved away from that direction.
I will however, someday, have that Krieg army painted up in new British kaki. Someday.
I've actually recently gone back to 4th edition, for solo gaming. I got into the hobby in 3rd, and did almost all my gaming in 3rd, 4th & 5th edition. Played a couple games of 8th and one of 9th, and it just doesn't feel like a wargame anymore.
Hey, most of my group (6-7 of us) here in Bham play Old World, HH, and 3rd & 5th Ed 40K- you’re always welcome!
I’ve personally started outside of GW, I can’t recommend The Doomed by Osprey Games enough! Really awesome rules lite system built more for the excuse of kitbashing cool characters & awesome monsters. It’s also designed to play solo or with a friend!
I adore 30k and Old World.
I'm currently building my squig and night goblin army!
Lots of bright colours and clashing lines.
I enjoy my trebuchet missing and hitting my own men.
I love when I succeed on a risky charge into the flanks, only for it to be stubbornly held back!
Positioning archers for maximum effect.
Laughing when a dwarf unit moves 12 inch to pursue fleeing cavalry despite being on foot!
I like rolling for powers. The moments you pull off a weird charges or hold ground against all odds.
I'm also as people might guess I like battle reports of these systems.
Played 40k since 2th edition until 8th... and fully agree in every single of the points you make in the video. Thanks
Preach! This is why I stick to boarding actions for Warhammer and 2E/3E D&D. This is making me want to get the HH rules to use with current 40K armies. 🎉
I've actually found a 3rd edition core rulebook (because of your video from way back when). With that and heroforge, I've been thinking of just doing some games with myself for my own amusement. I'm running on cheap at the moment, so this is how I'm doing it.
SO glad i never got into this racket
I understand why you stopped. Same reason I stopped honestly although my golden age was 6th edition cause that’s when I started. That said if you ever feel like putting up solo battle reports using whatever edition you want I’d love it. You sister vs Word bearers video was a thing of beauty.
can someone drop the link to the lofi version of Peaceful Waters
The company lost a lot when Andy Chambers and by his extention his team were forced out, 4th edition focused on player choice, army customisation and rules that rewarded conversion... hell White Dwarf even gave out rules for making your own special characters in the form of customised Imperial Guard General and Chaptermaster (the Autach's already did this for the Elder) and I think a lot more would of followed but then Andy Chambers was gone, Jervis Johnson started to completely r3verse the idea of player choice, the table top started looking more computer gamey as they brought in Apocalypse with it's bright green templates and tokens and every unit having a stupid name (imperial guard used to just have infantry companies, now they were 'Emperors shield' infantry companise) then 5th came out and it was the final nail I the coffin, the 100% stealth price rise on plastics by halving all the box contents and the attitude of player choice was gone, you just have to look at the Guard Codex from 5th, it was basically the old 3rd edition Jervis Johnson Guard codex with some extra tanks, the sub-par orders system replacing Doctrines and the Leadship boast of vox casters, half the weapons options were gone.
I don't know if there was more going on behind the scenes at the time, but the loss of Chambers and his replacement with Johnson coincided with GW's hard turn to be the completely non-consumer freindly company they are today.
"One mate who wants to play 2nd edition" . . . You're damn right I do 😂
Last time I played was third edition, when things started to get silly with "invulnerable saves", and "ignores invulnerable saves". Fortunately, I am too poor for this to really matter. Maybe someday I will play again. Finding people to play with any agreement to game rules, or regularity of meetings, well, you know how that goes. Damn land raider hasn't even had two pieces put together yet. :(
I have played two games of The Old World in the past week, and I enjoyed it, and had a better time learning how to play it, far more than playing Age of Sigmar and 40k for almost a decade. It's more complicated, yes, but I think rules also being universal and the same across the board for every army helps a lot. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's similar for 30k, isn't it?
You are very much correct. Been playing since the age of darkness box launched.
It has sweeping advances to kill fleeing units.
No split fire.
Vehicle facing and weapon direction.
Tanks have armour.
It's very good
I should add list building is fun because the available options are huge.
You can have marine vets with shotguns for example.
You can build themed lists like all jump pack.
Support weapon themed.
Armoured tank companies
@@zackcook5123 While there isn't quite as much as giving units different loadouts in The Old World, there are similar things to Sweeping Advances there in melee combat. The game definitely feels a lot less like trying to make the better list and just shoving things on the table, and more about planning and outmaneuvering your opponent.
Also, the tank armor discussion brought to mind the Avengers 1 bit with Iron Man firing his wrist laser at the space worm, and Jarvis saying, "We will lose power before we penetrate that armor..." d:
So what I'm hearing is that if I want to play modern 40k I should simply grab One Page Rules instead? 🤣
I'm so conflicted about this, and I kind of get it:
On the one hand, scatter dice (of which I have some from the 90s because a mate's dad let me pinch dice for no reason) and the armor rules sound great. It should be encouraging kit options. I also don't like new rulesets constantly coming out, because I haven't been able to buy minis since 8th.
One the other, I really don't like the templates, it's just a hard dealbreaker because of al the bad experiences I've had with D&D and cones and shit. Also the wasted fire.
Like so many things, neither end of the spectrum is a good fit for me.
I wasn't "in" the hobby for 4th edition but I played solohammer using the 4th ed rules for long after it was over and I 100% agree with you on this. I played a lot of 9th ed and even enjoyed playing it competitively for a time but it was just the constant rules changes and faqs and books and it just wore me down and I've not touched the game in over a year now. I'd love to go back to doing 4th ed stuff or even 8th ed stuff (even as unbalanced as it was) but no-one wants to. I have been doing LOTR stuff though and that has been great for me. It's just so sad to see something you've invested so heavily into, become so shitty
Old (ish) man shakes fist at cloud
Well put
These are all extremely valid and agreeable points but one thing is unclear to me.
Unless I'm missing something for the CZcams videos you were playing solo so whats stopping you from using whichever edition of the rules you like best?
Actually no, most of my batreps were filmed with friends of mine. The solo ones were a temporary covid thing
I'd play old editions with you bro
Well, I guess that explains it. I look in occasionally in the hope that you have done a wargame video, whatever the system or edition (I haven't played 40k since 8th, my penultimate game was against your Guard). Understandable, but a shame, I enjoyed your tabletop output.
I've been ranting about 40Ks gamification since 8th Edition. Late 9th edition is when I had a enough and I've played maybe 3 games of 10th. Heresy and a lightly modified version of 7th with some bits from Heresy 2.0 integrated has been my groups go to.
Fucking hate Strategems with a passion.
Played since RT and the older versions were infinitely better. I would say it peaked at 3rd. I would say a lot of the streamlining (aka dumbing down) of 40K is the holy trinity of how to kill a game; wider appeal, selling more plastic and kowtowing to tournament players.
The older versions were more tailored to skirmish games. You had a fraction of the units on the table compared to what you see now. GW are first and foremost a mini company, so of course they want you buying more stuff, but the rules buckled under the weight of so many models on the table (and still do).
RT gave you so much creative freedom it was insane. Space Marines with shuriken catapults? Yeah, why not. Want to design your own vehicle? Have at it. Want to have autonomous robots that follow a set of logic rules? Knock yourself out (granted that was a WD article later on, but it was amazing nonetheless). Hell, playing it with a GM and having random events and monsters rock up onto the field was peak wargaming.
It was incredibly clunky and unbalanced, but hell was it fun. If you're not having fun playing a game it ceases to be a game, and GW has turned 40K into a chore.
If I were located anywhere near you I would glady play my 4th ed BA against whatever you wanted to bring. It is the last edition I ever played.
Do you play The Old World?
I watched tons of your 40k stuff when my bro and I played 8th edition(with cardboard). We play Classic Battletech now, with legit miniatures we bought because Catalyst aren't complete scumbags and the rules haven't changed much in 35+ years.
I admittedly am not into the warhammer mini battling. I like warhammer fantasy a bit more. What about if you integrated some of your preferred older edition rules into modern 40k?
I've tried that and it can end up being a lot of work.
@@zackcook5123that's fair. Doing that with D&D is also a lot of work.
Personally I don’t think they should go to a new edition unless they plan to make massive changes like from 7th to 8th.
I agree mate. I switched games from any GW game to Conquest last Argument of Kings.
4th is my favorite ed also. 5th was a better ruleset, though i dipped after that launched due to life, but i recall the Nid codex for 5th being a travesty!
That sounds really irritating. The older versions of the game seems much more engaging and strategic from what you describe. Games Workshop sounds like they believe that their products are sufficiently popular enough that they can and ought to streamline for mass engagement. Sloughing off their original or long term fan base which enjoyed more technical gameplay might be seen as an acceptable cost of becoming mainstream.
Should have kept up the Necromunda
The only interest I have in 40k nowadays is the videogames, the novels and long format lore videos that I fall asleep to...the tabletop game sucks multiple bags of phalluses 😅 I'm really praying that cavils (is it a series or film?) 40k thing is up to scratch!
I really enjoy Dave's rants, always based. Don't always agree, but I can always appreciate his point.
I came in at the tail end of 7th edition. I was disappointed at the dumbing down of 8th edition but it did make it easier to get into the hobby.
I am having a lot of fun with old world, horus heresy and the middle earth strategy battle game.
We don't play competitive in my club and it's meant that wargames is a casual fun experience instead of a stressful one.
A new edition every two years? So it's basically Pokemon now
as an outsider to playing the game, from what I have heard, when the books are released they are already outdated and require online updates to use, so on a technicality you can just chuck the books in the bin to begin with i guess!
I wish I could get into HH but I'm a xenos player at heart and just don't like marines enough. At least I got TOW now.
A game safe from updates? Me, as a BFG player: 'Is this my time?'
How many wounds does your truck have?
Its a Truck.
GW has been on a wild one for a good long while now, it's hard to enjoy most of the current stuff but old world I have been having fun with.
I would personally love if Heresy added some of the Xenos factions. I feel a bit bad that my Eldar and Necron player friends can’t join me in shit kicking our Iron Warrior friend.
You're not alone...the comments say so
😄
The moment someone releases some solid conversions of like Orks or Eldar (like just take their 7e rules and adapt them) for Heresy, I'll be all over that. Im certainly not interested in 10th edition. Doesnt even need to be official just well made and people need to be okay with playing it.
It's just the actual Heresy Factions are just not appealing to me. Especially space marines are so tired
10th is pretty awful. I've pretty much dropped it and dived straight into the old world. That has been amazing fun.
Watching modern 40K Battle Reports, without really knowing much about it, I kept finding myself wondering, ""What would happen if you used AOE markers for AOE, instead of chance to hit + chance to resist + chance to go **** yourself rolls, and what if bodies and wrecks stayed around and impeded movement, etc." Interesting that it used to actually be like that.
And furthermore, what if the weapon caliber vs the target durability mattered on whether the body stayed around, afterward? Shoot a Gaurdsman with a Bolter and there's no body left, but use a Lasgun, and you tip the model over and keep it on the board... Could lead to some tactical choices about what units to use for what purpose.
Tipping over hundreds of fragile plastic models which you spent hours meticulously putting together and painting and which individually cost like 4$ each on the low end is not a very good idea. Small parts break off and paint chips easily enough as is.
Ha jokes on you.. I've been playing 4th, 5th and even Rogue Trader every once in a blue.. 6th edition WFB as well. Oldhammer is not dead, keep looking. If not there is always Grim Dark Future though that's a little more casual
dungeons and dragons has become and analog MMO too.
🙂👍!
Computer games and storytelling are far more attractive to me than TT and miniature collecting. A strange state of affairs when spinoffs are more compelling than the core. 40K is a great universe for fiction no matter what they do with TT.
Honestly, the only thing I'd ever buy from 40k _would_ be a small collection of models.
I've never been interested in the game itself.
Yeah, I appreciate a few of the ways more recent editions of 40K have smoothed out some aspects of gameplay, but for the most part it feels dumbed down, and the ever-narrowing ability to have it be about Your Dudes™ really really sucks.
What are you talking about? Since the creation of the first land raiders, tanks have always behaved like this.
What the hell are YOU talking about, actually
Sounds like old 40k was Company of Heroes or Men of War while modern 40k is Starcraft.
I realized 40K was a lost cause when I had to argue with 40K players why adding vehicle facings and needing to outmaneuver a tank is better for the game as opposed to blasting all your guns from your radio antennae. You don’t need to have like minded friends to play 40K anymore just play the rules and hope you don’t meet a legitimate WAAC player. Take that how you will.
Too bad 30k is not available where Im from. 40k is fringe enough
Done with 10th, just play kill team......3rd edition city fight 40k is the best
You've got shit mates if they won't play a different edition with you.
Shout out to Arbiter Ian
Your's is not an argument from nostalgia. Games Workshop does run a very explorative business model. Having to buy a new set of rules and army list every couple of years isn't an attempt to improve the players experience. It is meant to squeeze extra dollars out of the consumer while offering limited value.
Heresy videos?
GW made the game simple to balance it easier for tournament play, and they fail at it as all they do is adjust points when that doesn't fix core issues like at some point yeah I'll gladly take but that's beacause you mad marines cheaper then a imperial guard sqaud. My point is they fail at balancing it's just marketing they feed people who then regurgitate it back.
If I knew how to play u would
I'll be real, I can't be fucking bothered to learn the incredibly specific and niche rules of the Horus Heresy or old school 40k. I mean, sure, stuff like the tank staying on the battlefield as terrain and guns only being able to fire where they're facing make intuitive sense and would be easy assumptions that would be great to see (even though that highlights GW's piss poor tank designs, there's a good reason why no modern tank has any sponsons), but if you think for a moment that I'm going to take the time out of my day, if a shot hits a beveled or rounded corner of a tank, to look up a fucking chart and argue with my opponent whether that counts as front or side or top armor, you're kidding yourself. Especially looking at a model like a Forgefiend, jesus.
Ironically these are the sorts of rules better left for video games, because the computer will do the calculations and the heavy lifting and make the decisions on the fly. That's the advantage of having a computer. Incredibly dense, complex rulesets can be handled fairly efficiently and accurately. The computer isn't going to just up and forget a rule, bar bugs (and that's human error even still).
Then again, I don't really have any nostalgia for old 40k because I came into it relatively recently, and some old rules still annoy me. Like it taking an eternity in your opponent's turn for them to move all their little models around while you sit there and do next to nothing. I personally prefer Kill Team, mostly because it doesn't have that problem, doesn't cost a fortune, doesn't take ages to paint and collect enough models, and it doesn't take an entire day to set up and play. If GW were smart, they'd focus more on Warcry and Kill Team as mainline games, and turn AoS and 40k into the more specialist games but maybe that's just me.
Though you're right about the stupid quick edition cycle. The lack of kitbashing support really blows as well, but the chapterhouse lawsuit and 3d printers ensure that will never be a thing ever again, because GW doesn't like people stealing their profits. Still, that's not an excuse for GW not including shitloads of options in their kits to begin with.
Really sounds like you're not into what tabletop wargames actually are on a fundamental level. The entire history of tabletop wargaming is filled with all of the minutiae you seem to hate, and millions of people have enjoyed that for decades with no issues whatsoever. Those same people are just sad that more modern games and newer players are pretty counter to everything they love in terms of philosophy. It's hard to get a game in and when you get the option and there aren't many people left to game the way you want to, then it sucks. When you frequent the same hobby spaces, physically or online, that you've frequented your whole life and everything is changing and you're getting swamped with stuff you don't recognize or connect with anymore, then it sucks. Warhammer has simply become more popular because of the old lore but to sell the games to this new crowd it had to be simplified and its spaces gentrified, basically. Now AOS and 40K are games for casuals and tournament players, not for dedicated narrative players who enjoy converting/kit bashing and more realistic/less abstracted rules, which used to be the bulk of the fan base.
@@grumbo8634Almost like those minutae made it niche for a reason...
I'm not going to argue with an elitist, but I will say that something just being complex for the sake of it doesn't actually make it good.
@@grumbo8634I generally don't see arguing with nostalgic elitists to be worth my time as a general rule, but I will say that something simply being complex doesn't make it good automatically.
It's almost like 40k was niche for a reason.
I'll be honest these sort of finicky rulings don't come up as much as you think.
The boxy tank designs help massively, things like cover are easy to determine.
The charts are on little cheat sheets you get with the rulebooks. The Universal Special Rules also help massively.
Honestly arguements are very rare.
@@Flight_of_Icarus Something simply being simple doesn't automatically make it good either. Nor is the popularity or nicheness of a thing an indicator of quality or worth. Different people like different things, you just so happen to like simple things, and that's fine.
It doesn't stop you from understanding the perspective of the people who used to frequent these spaces and play these games for decades, and who are sad and frustrated to see the things they enjoy disappear. Maybe one day Warhammer will change again and you'll be the one complaining about it, and you'll have good reason, from your perspective.
Rules should be free. GW are fleecing assholes. Shame i think space marines are the worst part of 40k or i might try 30k one day. Maybe Old World.