Foods That Could Increase NAD: Fenugreek Seeds
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Nootropics Depot has a Fenugreek extract standardized for Trigonelline, going to try it on the next sale.
The problem is lack of a potent extract
Ground breaking video! EVen if it did not raise it much, very useful info, and lots to continue experimenting with and think about! Thank you!
Thanks @0626love!
I take a spoonful of dried alfalfa juice every day (I stir it into 2 oz of OJ, 2 oz of pomegranate juice, and 2 oz of a very rich hibiscus tea I make, and a scoop of soy protein, choline bitartrate, DMAE, taurine, chlorella, some 100% stevia for taste, and some water to finish filling my glass). I wonder if that has any trigonelline. Just adding a spoonful of that to whatever you drink is probably a lot easier than growing sprouts. Though, I love alfalfa sprouts.
Admire your fortitude, tried fenugreek seeds in small doses in the past, not easy. Great content
Thanks @barrie888, and that's a major reason why I'm not doubling their amount (to repeat the experiment at a higher dose), as their bitterness isn't pleasant.....
+1 for growing sprouts. It's fun. I have a little passive thingy I use and make all kinds, including broccoli sprouts inspired by Dr Rhonda Patrik, mung bean sprouts. There's also a gadget I bought that regulates the temperature that's better for year-round use but I haven't even rolled it out yet!
Puzzled as to why he didn't try sprouting the fenugreek. That's how many ppl use it for general health. I made fenugreek sprout tea years ago for female health issues and was surprised to find it also helped with muscle gain from resistance training (had been on a resistance training program for a while prior to starting the fenugreek). I sprouted the seeds for 3 days, refrigerated overnight (stress can sometimes increase beneficial constituents), then boiled the seeds for 10 min and allowed to cool. I would quickly drink a few tablespoons of the 6 oz or so if tea b/c it tastes terrible and refrigerate the rest for the next few days. Sometimes I would refrigerate the cooked sprouts and eat them on salad. That was at least 10 yrs ago. Since then I became ill with something and have been 'allergic to everything' ever since and can no longer tolerate legumes.
@@rhyothemisprinceps1617 Is there published data that sprouted fenugreek has trigonelline, or is it only in the seeds? I haven't come across that data, so I went with the seeds.
What's your average time, with the temp control, from seed to edible sprout? 3.5d on my 1st try, but is there a faster way?
3.5 days seems about right; it might go faster if you nick the seed coat and use a germination mat. I didn't use a seed mat or nick the coats, but my house is pretty warm in the summer as we try to conserve energy - sorry, I don't recall the exact temp. I think you can also hasten sprouting by treating with hydrogen peroxide (easier than nicking seed coats & the ROS exposure might increase trigonelline - maybe). Unfortunately, I have not found any trigonelline data for the sprouts, but 80 day old plant dry weight seems to have more trigonelline than the seeds, especially under certain conditions, according to Ramezani et al. 2023. But it's possible the trigonelline could dip down during germination; that's apparently what happens in peas ('Trigonelline, nicotinic acid and nicotinamide in seedlings of Pisum sativum' - paywalled so I only have access to the abstract). So I guess there might not be much trigonelline in the sprout tea & the anabolic effect was due to diosgenin. Have you ever heard of Annette Larkin? She eats pea shoots that she grows herself; they looked to be at least 10 days old. @@conqueragingordietrying1797
I'm growing my own fenugreek Microgreens. I've seen somewhere some data about trigonelline amounts in them. Can't seem to find it but in essence, Microgreens contain >10 times more nutrients and photochemicals than seeds or mature plants do per gram.
My main problem is the body odor that changes dramatically 😂
Ha, yep, and smelling/feeling like maple syrup wasn't fun
Yes in large quantity it changes the odor of the whole body. It is in our ME daily diet but in normal quantity cooked in food and not by itself, so we don’t feel or smell it. We never measured though lol. Mostly women cook and they don’t measure with a device, they just use their hand measurement as part of their daily routine. I was hoping to hear it increased the NAD but anyway
Oh wow fresh fenugreek is so hard to get...i just have dried green fenugreek for making Persian food 😋
Hey Michael, myself and some others are slowing starting up the U.S. Longevity Party, if you were interested and liked the idea.
Hey @SilverFan21k, I'm interested in all things longevity, but trying to do this though government is arguably the worst/slowest approach towards slowing aging.
I prefer a decentralized approach, where we individually work towards better health and potentially lifespan through regular, objective biomarker tracking...
How about fenugreek seed tea ? Made fresh… this is very easy to do and quite good for digestion as well.
Sprouts have an H2S donor. H2S impacts NAMPT, which plays a role in NAD salvage.
May skew your results.
That's ok, especially if it's skewed towards an increased NAMPT activity and higher NAD.
Which H2S donor are you referring to? Sulforaphane? That's in broccoli sprouts, not alfalfa...
I use my empty strawberry and blueberry containers for sprout growing, js.
Interesting, thanks for that @HarryJensen-kr4qz. I'm currently using 2 mason jars, but I'm open to other methods.
I'm on fenugreek seeds every morning ❤
Nice, how many grams?
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 I don't measure, but about 20g, is probably pretty close
Add it in my moring tea, with dried parlsley, black cumin, black pepper, cayenne pepper, green te powder, curry, potasium citrate, moringa, amla and guayusa
Pretty stimulating, even with the limited amount of stimulants. I think it's the pepper combo that is the cause
I saw on one video, i think it was from your channel, that cb38 increases over time as nad decreases. It may only be correlative but have you considered upping apeginine to decrease cd38 to see if it increases nad?
I've increased average daily parsley intake from 55 to 60g/d for the next test, but for other reasons, so apignenin content will be higher, too
I don't think CD38 is an issue in my case. If it was, I'd expect more NAD to be degraded into niacinamide, which can be converted into trigonelline via a couple of enzymatic steps. If that were true, blood trigonelline levels would be relatively high, but they've been very low for 5 tests...
What could explain such a huge x50 fold difference in trigonelline content for fenugreek seeds?
Maybe some brands treat their seeds in such a way that removes almost all trigonelline?
It could be shelf life, too, i.e. trigonelline degradation the longer the seeds sit somewhere
Other than that, not sure...
such high contents are completely unrealistic. 90mg/g would be almost 10% of the seeds consisting of the alkaloid. The purpose of a seed is not to provide Alkaloids, but to provide protected energy. Likely the reference is not total mass, but after removing all the cellulose and lignine... or a simple calculation error
@@monnoo8221 Those errors are very likely indeed. I can't imagine anything in nature containing 10% niacin.
@@0626love Yep, good point!
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 The good news is, if we had concentrated trigonelline exract, we could have interesting effects. :) :D Probably
Do they have some type of estrogenic effect
there are a optimal range for NAD level? or more is always better?
I'm working on sorting that out, but it will take some time. I'll need more metabolomic data to see what's going on in multiple biochemical pathways when NAD is very high (> 60 uM)...
What bodyfat percentage and BMI did you find correlates with the best biomarkers?
My current values: 22 and 15%. I'll aim for a bit leaner this year, but slowly, to see if/how the biomarkers react.
What about the low dose nicotinc acid is that an option for nad without messing up telomere length
Yep, that's what I've been doing, but I'm still trying to increase it without NA, solely through diet, if I can
I might not be able to, so low-dose NA (50 mg/d) may be an every thing going forward
Did the 60mg daily Nicotinic Acid keep your NAD levels elevated for a sustained time? Or did your NAD levels start falling back to baseline after a while at that dose? Thanks!
Hey @coolkingakram, removing NA = a regression to my baseline NAD (25 uM at most). I'm adding a metabolite (NA) to increase a metabolite (NAD), so it shouldn't be surprising that the effect goes away without NA.
In contrast, the fenugreek, chickpea, and soon to-be alfalfa sprout experiments aim to sustainably increase NAD without precursors.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Did you sustain higher NAD levels while you were taking 60mg nicotinic acid?
@@coolkingakram. Only for the duration of its use-it goes back down without it
Do you have any information as to whether trigonelline breaks down as a result of heat?
From what I've read, it's released into the water if boiling, but no/minimal loss assuming one drinks the water, which I do.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 If neither alfalfa nor clover sprouts provide an increase in blood plasma levels of trigonelline, it would be interesting to see if a fenugreek extract could for whatever reason.
Michael, maybe breakdown and try 2 cups of decaf coffee per day. Extra polyphenols as well as trig.
Thanks Peter, but alfalfa and potentially clover sprouts are the next 2 experiments
Clover seeds have more trigonelline/g than coffee...
Clover seeds taste really strong... also they have a lot of manganese so much that would put me in the upper limit... not sure how to balance it... @@conqueragingordietrying1797
Do you think of any way to use nicotinic acid without the side/negative effects? It seemed too good to be true :(
Yep, low dose (60 mg/d) increased NAD from ~25 uM to 39uM
It may be a situation specific to me for high-dose NA. I'll have more on that in a video next week...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 (referring to the high dose of nicotinic acid) Do you think it may not have been fully metabolized and this created oxidative stress?
If so, perhaps trying to take (dividing) at different times of the day could help?
It is probably TGTBT in high amounts. High dose likely poses risk.
"They found that people with elevated levels of a metabolite called 4PY were around 60 per cent more likely, on average, to experience such an event than those with lower levels. This compound only arises when the body breaks down excess niacin."
NMN (and probably other NAD precursors) like Niacin also increase 4PY.
See: Niacin supplements linked to greater risk of heart attacks and strokes
People with higher levels of niacin in their blood may be more at risk of a heart attack or stroke, possibly because too much of the vitamin inflames blood vessels, New Scientist, 2/19/24.
Apple pectine was able to reduce the flushing effect of niacin in a trial ("Apple pectin for the reduction of niacin-induced flushing").
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 (referring to the high dose of nicotinic acid) Do you think it may not have been fully metabolized and this created oxidative stress?
If so, perhaps trying to divide the dose and take it at different times of the day could help?
Even if trigonelline didn't impact NAD, it remains a compound that, for istance, suppresses renal oxidative stress and reduces renal cell apoptosis and fibrosis by regulating the PPAR-y /GLUT4-leptin/TNF-alpha signaling pathway ( " a review of medicinal plants with reno-protective activity in diabetic nephropathy animal models), increases testosterone and could be a safe natural alternative to a statin.
Intrestingly, 15 grams of flaxseed ( one tablespoon ) contain 18 mg trigonelline.
So , maybe fenugreek has not yet delivered all her secrets.
Yes, thanks Abdelilah, I still see trigonelline as important. In my data, it's inversely correlated with homocyateine, which shouldn't be a surprise because trigonelline + SAH-->SAM + nicotonic acid.
In the paper above, I didn't see a trigonelline in flax citation-where is that data from?
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 the content of flax in trigonelline is from Google Gemini ( former Google Bard).
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 One study ( "Trigonelline content in different cultivarsof flaxseed" _ Journal of food composition and analysis _ 2019) found that raw flaxseed contains 0.87-1.47 mg of trigonelline per gram of raw flaxseed.
Fenugreek can be eaten moore easily as sprouts.
How was other medical tests after eating fenugreek?
I sent blood for metabolomic analysis on the same day, and I'm waiting on those results. The main metabolite of interest would be plasma trigonelline. No other tests performed on that day.
21g of raw fenugreek powder a day to eat is tuff man...
Ah, not raw, I cooked it for up to 15 minutes in a boiled daily mix...
Only raw for the 1st day, and almost broke my teeth
Where is the problem with 21gramm powder..i just mix it with protein powders or other Stuff.
Be careful about growing your own alfalfa sprouts, you can easily get food poisoning from the bacteria that they harbor.
@@Viertelfranzose There is an unpleasant initial bitterness to it-if I had to include fenugreek seeds, I could get past that, but foods that impact biomarkers and that I like would both be good
Ball mason jars & mesh lids.
Yep, ordered and arriving today!
Kind of amazing how many sizes they have of Ball jars. Up to half a gallon I think. Good for storing water without nanoparticles of plastic leaching in. Enjoy sprouting! I remember reading a book by Dr. Weil about 20 years ago where he claimed that sprouts are poisonous. LOL Seems like a stretch. @@conqueragingordietrying1797
I have been taking Fenugreek seeds ( and soaked water) for decades --> Claimed to help with glucose control/IS but I did not see any effect..
I also take tonnes of chickpeas, bananas, orange etc. As far as glucose control is concerned, I follow WFPB for glucose homeostasis and becoming more IS. Never measured NAD so no clue.
Bottomline, not sure what Fenugreek seeds do ( like Cinnamon), but it is better to take than not - perhaps antioxidative and helps lower inflammation!
But "tons of bananas and oranges" means enormous amounts of sugar/fructose. 😎
This will probably destroy any possible advantages from trigonelline or anything else in those fruits.
That is your opinion.
Veggies+ Fruits or WFPB with negligible Oil, makes one more and more IS..
Fruits shoot sugar for IR folks - Make self more IS, and fruits are ones best bet for longevity.
@@bgsharma875 veggies yes but fruits are often bred to have much more sugar than what they used to have originally.
You need to soak fenugreek in water overnight
You need to try this...
Testofen® Fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum) Extract (seed) (std. to Fenuside™)
Force Factor has few supplements which have it... I have tried their Test 180 Ignite - just half the recommended dose does wonders.. You can feel the boost in energy.
.
Its wild to me that nicotinic acid was so much more effective than NMN at raising NAD levels, especially since NMN is about 5X more expensive. Any reason why you are not taking nicotinic acid every day?
The 1st part of the story is here: czcams.com/video/E1vV_iu41fk/video.html
What a pity ..I add fenugreek into soup . Hoped that would be a cheap way up.
Some of his biological clock test, show higher age, when NAD is higher. So just a small increase could be the way to go
It could be, at higher fenugreek seed intakes, and it could be a lack of effect limited to me
The only way to know is to test!
@@zombi3lif3 We'll have more clarity on that in a video next week, but it's not a high-NAD story:
czcams.com/video/1WaP1YgjIgw/video.html
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 I've seen that video. Must have forgot about it
Thanks!
Do you plan to go back to 600mg NA?
Definitely not, see this video (if you haven't already): czcams.com/video/SwggBuuamCk/video.html
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 thank you. Will definitely watch it.
wrote it under the other response of urs but better say it twice:
alfalfa sprouts contain canavanine, an amino acid that competes with arginine in the genome - even in low doses it makes the dna churn out shittified proteins
its not a safe food in my book
it may be irrelevant in the unoptimized diets of normies (cuz they dont eat the same stuff every day) but if u eat 100g per day average it CERTAINLY will have negative effects longterm
If alfalfa sprouts mess with any aspect of systemic biochemistry, rather than what can happen, we'll see when I blood test in a few weeks, and then thereafter when I grow my own sprouts
The idea of "CERTAINLY" is preposterous. The only way to know is to test, and that's what I'm doing
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 and what we love :)
Anyway, after that warning it is probably indicated not to go high with them first... damage can be long-term. ...unless you are a fan of clear results that do not need statistics 🤨
take care
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 yes u r right, one would need to test their genome for messed up dna/rna sequences
blood results may or may not give false negatives, they r not everything and just an indirect marker and may not show anything wrong if they r not calibrated properly finely or even looking for what may be messing up
id just with sole clover sprouts, they dont have that amino acid afaik
Yup - can cause lupus. Though interestingly, MaryRuth's has a probiotic that contains alfalfa grass and in the Amazon reviews, a person with lupus reported their symptoms improved. Perhaps the grass does not contain canavanine. But I'd rather not risk it.
Yeah i remember when alfalfa sprouts used to be a popular health food and they were eventually "out"