Another channel had a QandA from one of the reps done in an anymous fashion. Apparently this was a misreport from people there. Lead TO never went to red card him. SHOULD have DQ'd him when they found out he was playing that way for the whole tourney.
@@thebattleofpelennorfieldsp6081 Been TOing for years now, I host the NA GT out of Thunder Bay Ontario Canada, never has GW been allowed to "overrule" me. Who the fuck thinks the Head TO takes orders from GW? Like some mobster standing in the corner fixing results. That's not how this works, that not how ANY of this works lol Agreed @thebattleofpelennorfield
I haven't seen anything on the cheater, but I bet he is a wokie with a nose ring, pink hair and who demands to be addressed as "they". That's why GW didn't kick him out - GW is trying to cater to those people.
I know this wouldn’t fix the whole issue, but if all of those players that lost to him could have easily checked the orks rules in their app without it being locked behind a paywall some of this might have been avoided. Everyone having quick access to all rules in the 40K app is a great way to snuff out cheaters and blatant misplays.
Honestly even if GW gave “Tournament Access” to all attendees to be able to have full rules during the event that would be way better than how they have it now. With the rules being digital giving temp access to tourney players shouldn’t be too hard.
I can only assume the venue had a poor phone signal, otherwise I don't get why people wouldn't just check on battlescribe or wahapedia. I know they aren't official or infallible, but if I looked a rule up on either of those and it were different to what my opponent was telling me I would at least ask to see their codex or data cards.
ive been playing since the Rouge Trader days and while I get your point, the real issue is the spirit of the game, it used to be played more like a D&D game and even up to 5/6th there was a element of openness and transparency. Now don't get me wrong ive played some AHole moves against cocky players in the past who needed a grounding in reality (with the GW GM permission) with a simple "its foreword rules, check the book" before 2 turning him. we always carried all our own unit rules with us though, even if they were just photo copies. and and others have said, once a cheater, always a cheater will stick in your mind when playing against these guys who have been caught!
@@uptogeek9558 Honestly when i did tourneyes way back in 5ed. You came to the event with your sheet your rules for every unit, and every order or special army rule. And every judge made sure it was accurate, if you refused to give this information you didnt play. Easy to understand.
I could almost believe the toughness thing was an accident … but the ‘ardcase mistake is pretty unforgivable, because in order to know that ‘ardcase gives you the +2 toughness, you also HAVE to read the rule about firing deck, and to know how much space ghaz takes up, you HAVE to know he can’t go in the battle wagon with the upgrades
Theres no excuse its all on the app and if you don't have the app you must have your codex in tournaments to play the excuse he was used to playing imperial guard was a terrible excuse. Players need to be less trusting of a opponents honesty and questioning everything
Whenever I hear the name TJ Lannigan I immediately think of his cheating scandal back in 9th. I am always suspicious whether I mean to or not. This stuff follows you in the community.
Misplays? We talking about the known cheater, who has been caught in the past blatantly cheating on stream, "misplaying" something that is explicitly laid out on the Battlewagon's datasheet for 6 games until he got caught? And then "misplayed" his Snikrot multiple times until being caught again? I've spoken with people that were there, he was "misplaying" rules a lot in his own favor. It's too bad event staff at GW events don't have the power to DQ cheaters.
Well it's certainly a misplay whether it's intentional or not :) Seriously though, given I wasn't there, I'd far rather be a bit conservative on the definite accusations and allow folks to make their own minds up (including all the reasons you say).
@@auspextactics I think as a player that has been caught blatantly cheating in the past, he has a higher degree of personal responsibility to play clean. If he doesn't want to be called a cheater, it's on him. Especially when "only 2 toughness" has huge ramifications on what all of his previous opponents have chosen to do in each shooting and combat phase. Players like Richard Siegler have had themselves zeroed out of tournaments for less impactful misplays.
Well yeah when you forget the details of a rule you usually keep making that mistake repeatedly until corrected or you happen to read that rule again. Most people dont play 40k with their nose in a codex, which is why its so important to challenge if you think someones got the rules wrong.
I’m sorry which that amount of records you don’t need to have been gone there to say he cheated. If your goal was to be “neutral” then this video fails its goals - as it sounds the whole time “he made a simple mistake”
Dude went to a golden ticket event..... I have only been to two events and can't fathom making a mistake that big.... He absolutely knew what he was doing.
In 5 games, Gjaz jumping out of his illegal Transport made no difference? In 5 games being T6 not T5 made no difference to the wounds on a character? In 5 games, hitting on 33% chance with a great anti-tank weapon made no difference? In 5 games, being wounded on 4’a by Lascannons/equivalent made no difference? This is cheating, straight up, deliberate. That or someone who doesn’t know their army at all, to the point of questioning vociferously why the F they would take Orks in the first place AND select ‘that list’ which barring the cheating wasn’t a ‘new to the game, no idea what I’m doing, this is what I have painted list!’ This is ignoring previous ‘mistakes in my favour’ from the same player. For ages I mistakenly played Rhinos for my death guard at movement 10” NOT in my favour In my last tournament there Was a chess clock issue, it was my fault. I won by a significant margin, gave the result as a draw and agreed this with my opponent and the TO In a game vs Winters on CZcams, not once but twice I used firing deck in overwatch… In theory in my favour, but Tzeentch saw to it that my dice rolls corrected my mistake! Cheating at toy soldiers is literally, as sad as you can get at being a human being in a hobby
People that are just bad at remembering rules don’t win big tournaments, even if they by chance made more positive errors than negative. His whole narrative is one of „it’s my first day on the job“, when he is definitely a pro level player.
Nothing less than complete disqualification is acceptable. Kitchen table games are whatever, but if you're playing competitively you should be held to the highest standard of knowing how your rules work
If you cheat on a kitchen table game you deserve to be punched just for being an intentional asshat in a for fun game. Not a counter point to anything, just an addendum to cheating in that situation.
I was there, and as I said in my video Sunday, this git isn't an Ork player and we don't claim him. Dude was caught cheating on stream at an Open last year, got at least 2 yellow cards (including one with a 10 point drop in the shadow round), and absolutely knew he was cheating. He not only cheated the 9 players he played, he also cheated the winners/finalists of all of the other events who will never get recognition with a WarCom article, White Dwarf, etc.
I wouldn't undersell how big being able to throw ghaz in a t12 transport with AoC is. Hardest part about Ghaz is getting him in combat -- he's a massive model with M5, even if he can go through walls but he needs to touch you to do any damage. It was reported he used the wagon as a stat check, and T12 AoC + Cover is just far more effective for that purpose. Massive fuckup.
Honestly this is why I don't compete. I play this game casually and forget a lot of rules especially new ones like the other week I forgot about the two inch pivot for tanks. I am always open about this in games and when I play in the GW shop I always ask for confirmation. I remember I was playing chaos knights completely wrong letting the Karnivore attack with all weapons profiles even the shop owner said that was the right way. Then I played another chaos knights player and he corrected me. I felt horrible for all the victories I had with them.
This isn't a reason not to compete, but a reason why when folks like us want to compete we have to do our homework. I make errors too, and with the pace of updates and errata, (and multiple armies to keep track of 😅) it's easy to make small errors. But because we know we can make those errors it's on us to make a statcard for a unit we aren't as familiar with, it's on us to make sure we understand the rules for army building, modifications to vehicles, transport capacity etc. There are a ton of folks on this thread defending the player for making "little mistakes" at a HUGE tournament. If I was going to compete with my main army, the list I'm most confident, familiar and comfortable with, I would still bring my own stat cards and notepad with faq stuff for me to reference because it's on me as a player to make sure I follow my own rules before it's anyone else's. If you make consistent errors in your favor, even more reason to do what I've suggested so that you don't end up in this situation. We all live and learn, but most of us have the integrity to not make our learning experience unfairly impact someone else's play experience.
@@cameronlang6858 Sure, but what you just said confirms I don't want to compete. Yeah I know most of the rules and try to stay updated, but I'm not doing homework for a game other than reading the data cards on the apps. This is a game, I'm not gonna take it that seriously. I favorite rules I have trouble with on the app and review rules. Not everyone thinks competing is fun.
I dont even play 'casually' at all because there is no such thing. At least 50% of games i played casually were people who turned up with a tournament list or were wanting to test a list for a tournament. There wasnt even any point setting up models. The game is toxic and then there are the issues with GW being unable to get its own rules right eg movement mess.
If you stick to the app, it's very difficult to defend the position , "oh, I got it wrong". Even the rules are fairly easy to check quickly, I find when people use the cards, that's when it falls down as there so many updates all the time, the cards are never up to date, when you see un-marked cards, you know their up to something, well thanks for great report as normal, great channel.
This is huge reason the app and all of the codex's should be free and probably for bigger tournaments should be the way you submit your lists. Would make checking your opponents stuff easier and would result in less issues like this.
I normally give players the benefit of the doubt because I make loads of mistakes. But…. 1. My mistakes sometimes are to my detriment not always my benefit 2. I don’t enter into high level tournaments
You also don’t win high level tournaments and you were not caught blatantly cheating in the past. Imo what kills all his arguments is that he got caught cheating on camera in 2022 and is still lying about it. Why should I believe him now, when I can simply check that he is still lying?
I mean, as a TO for the last 18ish years, I would have DQ'd them. They have a history of cheating, they've done it with 6 bloody games, the rules are clear. If it had been a simple mistake, then depending on how contrite they were, my personal penalty would have varied from exactly what the judge did in this case in resetting ghaz, to explicitly removing ghaz and all attached units from play with any victory points for his destruction being awarded. I mean, I'm not the level of the head judge that decided to retroactively lifetime ban a player for how a model they didn't build sits on a a stand that varies over the years of its production. But considering how many fewer cheaters the more stringent events tend to have, and how many of them reform when hit with actual penalties and a properly propagated notice of their behavior, it's better for the whole of the hobby to reserve gentle corrections for people who make their first mistake or are genuinely contrite over their mistakes. I've had people when caught on a genuine mistake have offered to cede the points of the game irrespective of the outcome, only for their opponent to object and suggest they just play it out and let a judge decide at the end how to adjust. I've had cheaters who on multiple warnings have continued to cheat with a judge literally sitting on the margins of their table watching them. I've found cheaters with altered PDFs and printouts of their army rules, and in one very sad case, someone who accidently was sold a previous edition codex for their army who had to drop from the first round while we helped them cobble together a vaguely playable list from what they had, and what could be begged, borrowed, or bought at the event.
Funny how his "sloppy play" and "missteps" are always - ALWAYS in his favor. Generally when I forget rules it's more or less 50/50 if it benefits me or not - forgetting a piece of useful equipment on a model or not using a stratagem when it would have helped, but he has a long history of these kinds of "missteps" and they're 100% in his favor. I'd recommend people read his actual reddit post - even players in his local scene previously warned him how it was going to be hard to view his mistakes as accidental, and yet the mistakes continued. I my opinion he's a cheater, he's just a very good one that cheats in subtle ways that are easy to overlook individually, but if you take the totality of these events as a whole, it's very hard to imagine he just happens to always make beneficial mistakes
This is really the bit that stinks to me. Sloppy play tends to be neutral-to-negative for the sloppy player, at least over the long term. If it's consistently beneficial to the player, well, that suggests it's not really sloppiness.
Most good cheaters are able to cheat not through hiding it but through exerting social pressure to make you doubt your own instincts. He was able to hide it because a lot of people took what he said on trust, which allows the few times its happened to be called out to play off as a mistake, even though it's clearly intentional as he played it that way the whole event and never looked to correct himself. I've had it happen to me at an event which was 9th edition and someone was claiming to have character protection when they clearly didn't, I offered to look it up in the rulebook which was met with a very quick "it won't be in there, the rule changed recently!" (it hadn't), as soon as I mentioned I had the latest errata printed out he suddenly "allowed" me to do it, even though he was still trying to argue it was an illegal move. Sadly most of the competitive players I've encountered are soft cheats, there's an unfortunate culture of it in my area which is why I avoid events here.
It doesn't seem just sloppy, the battlewagon that was tougher could carry Gaz which it couldnt and a seperate character gouing from T5 to T6 (espeically one that you can only hit at shorter range makes a huge difference). Seems like a lot of "whoops I missed that -wink-" things
what baffles me is that someone who competes in such big events and plays for a rather long time apparently didn't read the footnote on ard case doesn't add up for me
Oh... I watched most of this video thing the "misplay" was in a single game but when I realized it was used in *5* other games before getting caught I couldn't justify it as an accident. I don't understand why they can't assign penalties to previous games. None of it is set in stone. Just a few months ago an F1 driver sued the FIA to change the result of the *2008* F1 championship. This is an entirely self imposed handicap that has no place in a competitive environment.
See it this way. If you make a mistake in your first game. And nobody tells you. You make the mistake in the rest of the games too. Because you think it is okay. And not a mistake. Because it was a mistake that began in the beginning of the tournament. I tend to believe it was genuine. If he started to do it after 1 or 2 games not doing it. Yes thats fishy.
No one rereads the whole codex between games. If you play things the way you remember them and no one questions it, you'll assume that you remembered it correctly.
@@TheSegertI believe the opposite out of two reasons: 1) he was caught cheating before and 2) he is a good enough player to win a big tournament but gets his rules wrong all the time? And it’s only in his favor? Nope, not going to fly for me.
I could be wrong, but it seems as though whenever these 'mistakes' are made by players, they always seem to be mistakes that BENEFIT the player rather than it being a mistake to their detriment. Is this coincidence? Or are there examples of people screwing themselves in tournaments that we just don't hear about. I've certainly screwed myself over in casual play by forgetting rules etc, but the times I've been to tournaments I've always known and playtested the army I was taking to the point I'd know it inside out.
Yup. That's the litmus test to see if someone is really just forgetful/sloppy or cheating. How often do their mistakes work against them. Almost always when it's a dude like thus winning big tournaments it only ever goes one way...
I’ve made a misplay arguably on a bigger level: I misread the Palatine’s rapturous blows and thought it gave mortals to her whole unit and played it like that in the first round of an escalation league, so like three games. In my defense the amount of games of 40k I had ever played was in the single digits at that point, but i still feel really guilty about it. I went undefeated in the league but there’s an asterisk there I can’t forget
Tactical Tortoise had what I thought was a good review of the situation. m.czcams.com/video/FBVP_kjAhE0/video.html Some important bullet points: 1) That tournament didn’t use any sort of yellow/red card system at all 2) The error was detected during a Shadow Round match, which was a seeding match between rounds 6 and 7 3) There was never any intent or attempt to kick the player in question out 4) In the aftermath, the player voluntarily forfeited his result, and gave all of the prizes, including the Golden Ticket, trophy, etc.
And if you're talking about the one time TJ got caught a few years back, he apologised, took time off, came back and I've never heard anything bad about him since, are we really not giving people 2nd chances? Don't we all make mistakes? Marshall though is a known repeat offender, not defending him at all but stop going ape on TJ, he's changed and atoned by now
@@krilc how is it not a mistake? A mistake is an act or judgement that is misguided or wrong. He fucked up, he apologised, he changed. Stop harassing the guy for something he did years ago and has since reformed himself
When you make this many 'mistakes', at this many events, i think Misplay is not the right term. Glad Marshal stepped up and took responsibility and dropped, heres hoping he continues to work on things and becomes a healthier member of the community.
This is where rules mastery becomes very critical. It's really hard. It's a lot of memorization with competitive. If you want to be the best combatant. There is no "simplified not simple", it's quite the opposite.
I gather the scenario is a “that guy” issue in reference to his errors only go one way. We would never hear about him if he errored nerfing himself. All we’ve heard is he misread rules, in this AND PAST competitions, to buff himself. BL: he ruined the tournament experience for 6+ other players and that can’t be resolved.
As a guy who's an Ork regular and is the "Ork Guy" around the local Tacoma GW: _This guy is not me, and am very annoyed this Ork guy screwed it up for the rest of us._ 2:10 Okay, that guy's *blatantly cheating.* Ghaz hasn't been allowed in a battlewagon w/ 'ard case upgrade & Zzap gun since at least 9th, if not 8th edition.
What I can't understand is that this should have all been clear via the mandatory app or whatever list the contestants are supposed to present up front right? Isn't that the whole point of list-building - knowing the exact stats of your units (and the organizers/judges knowing your units and capabilities for ruling purposes)? Wouldn't there be at least one copy of each current codex/index for reference on hand for a tourney this big?
I'll be honest... This does not look like a misplay, but a blatant cheat. If Aardcase gives you +2T, how could you miss the firing deck limitation? Especially with current edition rules where these kinds of things are more likely to be a tradeoff, with no upgrade costs. This was no mistake in my opinion, more of a "I hope nobody notices" kind of deal. Now... You may say you should not attribute malice to what can be explained by incompetence... But no... I've seen enough cheaters in my life to know that in tournaments you should ASSUME malice. Especially when the player in question has a history of similar "misplays". That reeks of cheating. The bigger problem I see is that judges lacked the basic knowledge to actually spot this. Nobody checks the lists? The rules? Don't they have sheets and other resources at hand?
This is why I gave up on tournaments many years ago. Not the cheating, but the atmosphere. Some of the most fun I've had were in games where mistakes were made and laughed off. And learned from. I'm miserable when every little part of the game is under the microscope. I'm not criticizing people for enjoying tournaments. But other than events like the friendly doubles at Adepticon, this sounds like an awful time.
In most tournaments, mistakes are not an issue, because they are mistakes, and you make them in both directions. Nobody plays a perfect game of warhammer. What we have here though is a guy that has done some of the most cold-blooded cheating possible, on camera. The mistakes only happen in his favor, and they don't happen when there's a judge watching. It's someone who actually knows the rules, and decides to change them to guarantee the win. A random player making mistakes is a low stakes thing, which is completely different than what happens here.
Good for the second place but still bad for all the other gamers who had to play against the cheater Also seems he has a repeated story of cheating - don’t understand how those guys are not banned “I made the same mistake in a casual game”. This is the difference he went on a competitive tournament where you have to know your rules and stats. No problem at looking at the app or cards to give you a quick reminder or to be sure. Same thing about your “easy to make mistake because of last edition”. This video seems pretty apologetic about this guy regular un-sporty behavior
Ive played a ton of casual tyranid games with my Tervigon having a 4+ invulnerable save I mean, it was a mandela affect moment when i found out it didnt "Ah! I must be thinking of 9th edition im so sorry" *checks 9th edition stats* "...wtf???" No invuln I felt so bad for all the moments i made 4++ saves against meltas and the like Immediately told my opponents my mistake every those from months before
When тotally justifies "Strong but Cunning" =) My opinion is this - a stupid restriction on Hard Case led to a stupid situation. GW layers on a huge number of layers of stupid rules for only have the rules.
I wonder if perhaps they used an army list building application or aid that gave unclear information - since most vehicle add-ons these days are just 'tick this box to not nerf yourself pointlessly', maybe they did so out of habit and the application just added that rule to the others. I know I had an iffy situation with Battlescribe recently (not in a tournament, thank goodness) in which it implied to me that Blue and Brimstone horrors used the defensive stats of Pink Horrors until the Pink Horrors were all gone, crucially including Objective Control, since the application did not provide defensive stats for them with the Pink Horror entry and stated that one would swap to the Blue Horror rules once there were no Pink Horrors left. That did have a sizeable impact on the final score. Fortunately it was a game between friends, and afterwards when I found the proper ruling, I apologised and was quickly forgiven. In the end, two very different situations, and in both the responsibility is to have properly studied one's army list using more than just a list builder, but I can see how such errors could happen, giving a hefty benefit of the doubt.
I think the punishment was sound but light, I think the tournament scene isn t known to treat cheating well, and lack the time and logistics to make a just punishment, so many of them only punish you lightly for cheating by fear of being too disruptive to the event.
Understand why aspect is taking a conversative view, but this is incredibly suss. The judges need to take 50% at least of the blame here. Its shocking that it was missed for 5 games.
The moment i saw ghaz and the battlewagon i knew what the problem would be. As an ork player, it is VERY easy to make this mistake. I have done so many times myself (luckily realizing the mistake before an actual game) but the inconsistent "can embark/cant embark" clauses on the BW are quite easy to overlook/miss.
As this game picks up steam, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel with this stuff, MTG figured it out a long time ago and has an exact rhubric. And to be clear in this situation, you can by longer win a 6 round competitive event like this without being very, very good at the game; so good that missing something like this is inconceivable. Lifetime ban.
I don't mean to be melodramatic but they've done shame to my chosen faction. Orks are there for the fight, win, loss or draw. Orks should pride themself on being able to deliver a good krumpin' even in defeat. I'm glad he came and opened up about the event but this man is not an Ork player at heart.
So, so, glad that GW shaped 10th ed around the competitive scene. Just look at the players it attracts now at high profile events! And we've had so many this year already! This isn't a game for the kitchen table any more. This is just embarrassing.
Easiest way to spot the difference between cheating and misplay: Does it always benefit the player in question and does it happen often? If so, it is cheating. Until recently I made two mistakes in my Warhammer Fantasy Empire army. I thought pistols were 8" reach, which disadvantaged me both in reach and to-hit-rolls. Also I thought Pegasi had WS4 instead of 3. That was to my advantage. I got corrected on both and non play it properly. Don't know where I got those wrong numbers from, but it was so basic, I never looked it up.
I had an issue in 8th edition. I went to a tournament with csm and I didn’t know the 8.5 codex had come out the week before. They let me play and I got last place. I got a prize for being the worst though so it wasn’t all bad
One of my biggest misplays (in AoS though) was against StD player who had just got and built Bel'akor. I played Kharadron Overlords and used a balloon ship (the smallest ship) with a Torpedo Enhancement (after successful charge, roll dice, on a 2+ deal Mortal Wounds equal to roll) and thought that the number of Mortal Wounds was equal to charge roll (I rolled 11), which killed Bel'akor. We noticed it like two weeks later and we still joke about it to this day.
When the ork player decided to upgrade for the zap gun they must of made the choice to not have gaz in the transport. At a big tournament like this surely people musf be very well versed in their own army rules ......... Even the smallest varials can give a huge advantage .... Let's be clear this wasn't a friendly game using proxy minatures. In my opinion it's not the worst rules error but because of the higher meta standard of tournament the ork player was right to concede the game.
I think a few people all surmounted to the whole scenario, not in the right nor wrong, we all make mistakes whether intentional or not that is just being human. The misplaying individual should be carrying more guilt and I believe should have done more than taking the -10 VP on the chin as it’s his duty to get his army specific rules correct to the best of his ability, likewise judges I believe should have had something a little more harsher such as probably putting him in the lower skill bracket at about half way up. Its not of their fault but also his opponents, they only wished to trust their opponent that they get such datasheet things correct but there may have been opportunities for them to ask him if he could show them on the data cards where it’s shown. In the end that is just my opinion on the matter.
Surely army lists are submitted and checked before the tournament? If the guy had only recently started playing orks, yes rules can be mistakenly used etc. This has effected all his opponents since round 1. I for one before a tournament will go through my army list constantly ironing out any mistakes that could have arisen in the building of it. There's a quote for this kind of behavior. "It's only called cheating if you get caught".
I think an important thing is that hes a high level competitive player. Especially something in list building, you shouldn’t have such a large error that you had a vehicle that couldn’t take a model taking that model (obviously this isn’t technically in the list building step of the rules but when planning your army you know what units you’re putting in transports so what I’m going to say still holds true). This isn’t a time where there’s little time or high pressure, you’re probably just sitting in front of your computer looking at data sheets. The snikrot thing is what it is, if that was the only thing I’d be inclined to be like that’s unfortunate but whatever, it probably wasn’t intentional, but I think if you’re playing at that level any mistake in list design is intentional. Whether you intentionally did it knowing it isn’t allowed, or just intentionally didn’t check, I don’t care, you clearly didn’t act in good faith to make sure your list all worked. If you are misplaying in this stage of the game, specifically if you’re in a high level competitive environment like this, it isnt acceptable at all. Obviously if this happened in a casual game, it’s whatever, and if he was a new player who was at his first tournament and placed 367 out ~400 it isn’t a huge deal, but when you’re competing for the top spot it’s unacceptable. When you get to a certain level there should be a higher standard, especially for stuff that is pre game like this. Everyone misremembers stuff in the moment of the game, but this isn’t one of those cases and for a highly competitive player it’s far more egregious than I think a lot of people are giving it credit for.
How the hell are these misplays when they are playing at a competitive level? Surely this is stuff they should know or am expecting too much of high level players haha
I think the reason people tend to make mistakes in their favor is that when they're building an army, they're looking for what's effective. I.e. - they will miss limitations when making an army because they're NOT LOOKING FOR limitations. If they're looking at the opposing army, they're looking for weaknesses. And so they find the limitations because that's what they're looking for. You could call this "subconscious bias" or whatever.
for those of you thinking 2 toughness isnt much las cannons wound on 3's now its 4s defiler cannons are now 5s not 4s demon prince's with khorne word are now 5s not 4s sister tanks are 5 not 4 tau cannons are 5s not 4s now, some are now 4s not 3s basically most anti-tank weapons in the game are affected by the LITTERAL TANK CARRYING A WARLORD being 2 toughness higher.
I am glad that the player in question conceded his win and gave it to the player who placed Second. I do hope he improves his play in the future if he plays on continuing playing in tournaments.
Did you watch the video where he 'misplays' on Wargames Live, and straight out reads a sentence from the book while skipping the words that say his opponent is right? It's just the coldest, most blatant cheating one can have without lying about dice rolls.
The main reason I don’t believe these are misplays is his history of playing various armies in tournaments. If someone is playing Astra Militarum and then Votann and now Orks, I would hope and expect that he would be reviewing the rules for his new army, especially before a GT. That makes it very hard for me to believe these were simple, honest mistakes. One, OK. Two or more? No. I’m sorry I don’t buy that.
The snikrot thing is a misplay. Ill give him that. As going from T5 to T6 doesnt really affect the wounding characteristics. However going from T10 to T12 is a massive intentional fault. That is 100% more difficult to kill as there are very few S13+ weapons, but a ton of S12 weapons. At game 6 he should have conceded the win as soon as that was revealed. Not just the -10pts and resetting Ghaz. Ghaz should have been 'killed' Instead of reset to deployment, as it was 100% illegal play. In order to make it to a Major GT you need to have played your army alot. There is no excuse that he "misplayed" that. You dont just wake up one day and decide to buy 2000pts of a fully painted army, and then fly to a different city to play a GT.
Going from t5 to t6 does actually change a lot of wounding characteristics. Heavy bolters, most heavy flamers, any s3 shooting (lasguns, autoguns) s10 shooting like battle cannons. T6 is a definite threshold, with definite impacts, especially on a model with lone op
It's only a misplay if it's a new army you're getting used to. Any "misplay" in a tournament setting that just so happens to always benefit said player, turns into intentional cheating
People should calm down. We all are humans and make mistakes. We see that judges and organizers don't have problems here. Just Redditors are losing their minds here.
Because they don’t have the authority to issue proper bans… that’s up to GW. This is a problem, this guy needs a 2 year ban at least. He’s been doing this literally since he started competing, and has been caught literally lying about his own rules while reading them out of his book, just straight up skipping the line that is not in his favor.
I would say, casual with thunder cannon in battle wagon and Grazghkull I have messed up that rule before, took me 3 games to realize i messed up on that part. But at tournament he should have dropped out. Or he should have lost thoes wins
Especially something SO prevalent and easy to check in the datasheets. I know my armies toughness and I still check every phase where they get hit to make sure.
@@loganparry2676 That is the whole point of having the rules in front of you. That is why it's required at events. You can't use battlescribe at events? Why? Obviously. I feel you man.
@loganparry2676 they have stopped updating it in 10th edition so leviathan mission pack will be the last for 10th. Uber sad. Try updating your 40k core rule set and you will get an error message
It seems like it'd be a lot easier to give them the benefit of the doubt if it weren't for the fact that competitive play brings out the worst in most people to begin with. "casual" cheating is a constant at tournaments, and it just sounds like he got caught.
No competitive game will change game results if not discovered before start of the next round. Nor should they. Trying to correct past rounds skews unrelated things and snowballs the further back in the event you go
I constantly misplay, sometimes to my benefit, sometimes to a huge detriment. I once played with Salamanders against Deathguard in 9th, during a time when my army specifically forbid his from rerolling wounds, which was one of the Deathguards main abilities at the time and I completely forgot about that ability. Then just a few days ago, I played in a Warhammer Fantasy Beginners Tournament and got confused about the entire system with strength, toughness, Combat Ability and Armor. Me and my opponend both didn't quite get the rules though (beginner tournament), so we just decided to revive half of his troops killed in that round. The difference between me and this guy: I play very rarely, even my main system 40k is only played by me once every couple of months or so. When you are in a big, official tournament and your "misplays" concern two of your centerpiece models, it is a lot harder to believe. And even if one made these mistakes without intention, they should definitly work hard on their rules knowledge.
Theres misplays and this. Just today i realized me proxing my patriarch as a broodlord has been illegal because even though its almost the exact same model, down to most of its datasheet, its on a different base. That was an honest mistake because i actually have never seen a nid brood lord and the sheet says nothing about it
I'm brand new. But I would side on the defense of the player making the mistake. Like there are so many updates and the books are apparently not like consistent with tournament play. It's a lot to keep track of. Now I can see how someone could "play this up".
He’s done this before, in previous editions and tournaments. He lied-on stream-to his opponent when reading rules from his book. And this is a high profile competitive event. Constantly making “mistakes” which always happen to be in your favor to a significant degree isn’t making mistakes. It’s cheating. And if it IS making mistakes, you shouldn’t be at an event like this.
And it's because of videos like this that put me off tournaments. I don't believe that for a second the players involved didn't know they were cheating
I don't care about drama. In a tournment, you MUST know your army. You aren't here to do a casual play with your friends. Many players have bad memories of a tournament game where an opponent cheated by “forgetting” the rules. During my last tournament, my GC opponent continued to use his rerolls on his acolytes who repopped while his character was dead. In a tournament, everyone wants to win and we can accept defeat if the opponent was better or if we made mistakes. But when it is the adversary who makes a mistake (to his advantage) in the rules of his army, it is unacceptable.
It was right for the guy to give up his win. I was at a tournament where far worse was done by one player who then went on to win. It makes everyone feel bad when someone wins due to being sloppy with the rules, intentional or not.
Nothing prevents me from playing with friends or going to shops with like minded ppl. But this competitive scene sorta just sucks the fun out of the game just feels soulless i know know i don't hafto engage in it.
This is why i dont play competative. I have ADHD. I forget stuff. Or cannot remember all the data. And do make mistakes. I would never want to be accused to be a cheater. I just want to have fun. Given the facts of this story. I tend the give the play the benifit of the doubt. That he is maybe like me. Check if he made any mistakes that where not in his favour. If so. Then boom. you got your answer. And indeed it was sloppy play. If he was a real cheater. He probably would have kept the win. Also i think the refs are more responsible. The refs should have said at the first game. Hey! you cannot do that. Instead at the 6th. So this whole thing was more a mistake from the refs than him. They let him get away with it 5 times! maybe 5 different refs. If i made a mistake in my first game. And i wasnt corrected. I would also think. It would be correct. And if i do the same thing 5 games. Yes. I would be confident that it was correct. Also the thougness one is a very easy mistake.
The Long War podcast reported on this. According to them, the top judge wanted to issue a red card to the player in question, but was overruled by GW.
Another channel had a QandA from one of the reps done in an anymous fashion. Apparently this was a misreport from people there. Lead TO never went to red card him. SHOULD have DQ'd him when they found out he was playing that way for the whole tourney.
If a TO does not have authority to disqualify, what is the point of a tournament, or rules for that matter.
@@taten-jinmu718
@@thebattleofpelennorfieldsp6081 Been TOing for years now, I host the NA GT out of Thunder Bay Ontario Canada, never has GW been allowed to "overrule" me. Who the fuck thinks the Head TO takes orders from GW? Like some mobster standing in the corner fixing results. That's not how this works, that not how ANY of this works lol Agreed @thebattleofpelennorfield
I haven't seen anything on the cheater, but I bet he is a wokie with a nose ring, pink hair and who demands to be addressed as "they". That's why GW didn't kick him out - GW is trying to cater to those people.
I know this wouldn’t fix the whole issue, but if all of those players that lost to him could have easily checked the orks rules in their app without it being locked behind a paywall some of this might have been avoided. Everyone having quick access to all rules in the 40K app is a great way to snuff out cheaters and blatant misplays.
Honestly even if GW gave “Tournament Access” to all attendees to be able to have full rules during the event that would be way better than how they have it now. With the rules being digital giving temp access to tourney players shouldn’t be too hard.
I can only assume the venue had a poor phone signal, otherwise I don't get why people wouldn't just check on battlescribe or wahapedia. I know they aren't official or infallible, but if I looked a rule up on either of those and it were different to what my opponent was telling me I would at least ask to see their codex or data cards.
The dream would be to buy a hard copy of a codex and then get digital access to all of them. This, ofc, is very unlikely.
ive been playing since the Rouge Trader days and while I get your point, the real issue is the spirit of the game, it used to be played more like a D&D game and even up to 5/6th there was a element of openness and transparency. Now don't get me wrong ive played some AHole moves against cocky players in the past who needed a grounding in reality (with the GW GM permission) with a simple "its foreword rules, check the book" before 2 turning him. we always carried all our own unit rules with us though, even if they were just photo copies. and and others have said, once a cheater, always a cheater will stick in your mind when playing against these guys who have been caught!
@@uptogeek9558 Honestly when i did tourneyes way back in 5ed. You came to the event with your sheet your rules for every unit, and every order or special army rule. And every judge made sure it was accurate, if you refused to give this information you didnt play. Easy to understand.
I could almost believe the toughness thing was an accident … but the ‘ardcase mistake is pretty unforgivable, because in order to know that ‘ardcase gives you the +2 toughness, you also HAVE to read the rule about firing deck, and to know how much space ghaz takes up, you HAVE to know he can’t go in the battle wagon with the upgrades
Theres no excuse its all on the app and if you don't have the app you must have your codex in tournaments to play the excuse he was used to playing imperial guard was a terrible excuse. Players need to be less trusting of a opponents honesty and questioning everything
The 'ardcase rules and the ghazghul limitation it imposes are in separate places, for some reason.
Whenever I hear the name TJ Lannigan I immediately think of his cheating scandal back in 9th. I am always suspicious whether I mean to or not. This stuff follows you in the community.
Misplays? We talking about the known cheater, who has been caught in the past blatantly cheating on stream, "misplaying" something that is explicitly laid out on the Battlewagon's datasheet for 6 games until he got caught? And then "misplayed" his Snikrot multiple times until being caught again? I've spoken with people that were there, he was "misplaying" rules a lot in his own favor. It's too bad event staff at GW events don't have the power to DQ cheaters.
Im so sorry… but What the fuck?
Well it's certainly a misplay whether it's intentional or not :) Seriously though, given I wasn't there, I'd far rather be a bit conservative on the definite accusations and allow folks to make their own minds up (including all the reasons you say).
@@auspextactics I think as a player that has been caught blatantly cheating in the past, he has a higher degree of personal responsibility to play clean. If he doesn't want to be called a cheater, it's on him. Especially when "only 2 toughness" has huge ramifications on what all of his previous opponents have chosen to do in each shooting and combat phase. Players like Richard Siegler have had themselves zeroed out of tournaments for less impactful misplays.
Well yeah when you forget the details of a rule you usually keep making that mistake repeatedly until corrected or you happen to read that rule again. Most people dont play 40k with their nose in a codex, which is why its so important to challenge if you think someones got the rules wrong.
I’m sorry which that amount of records you don’t need to have been gone there to say he cheated.
If your goal was to be “neutral” then this video fails its goals - as it sounds the whole time “he made a simple mistake”
Dude went to a golden ticket event..... I have only been to two events and can't fathom making a mistake that big....
He absolutely knew what he was doing.
In 5 games, Gjaz jumping out of his illegal Transport made no difference?
In 5 games being T6 not T5 made no difference to the wounds on a character?
In 5 games, hitting on 33% chance with a great anti-tank weapon made no difference?
In 5 games, being wounded on 4’a by Lascannons/equivalent made no difference?
This is cheating, straight up, deliberate. That or someone who doesn’t know their army at all, to the point of questioning vociferously why the F they would take Orks in the first place AND select ‘that list’ which barring the cheating wasn’t a ‘new to the game, no idea what I’m doing, this is what I have painted list!’
This is ignoring previous ‘mistakes in my favour’ from the same player.
For ages I mistakenly played Rhinos for my death guard at movement 10” NOT in my favour
In my last tournament there
Was a chess clock issue, it was my fault. I won by a significant margin, gave the result as a draw and agreed this with my opponent and the TO
In a game vs Winters on CZcams, not once but twice I used firing deck in overwatch… In theory in my favour, but Tzeentch saw to it that my dice rolls corrected my mistake!
Cheating at toy soldiers is literally, as sad as you can get at being a human being in a hobby
People that are just bad at remembering rules don’t win big tournaments, even if they by chance made more positive errors than negative. His whole narrative is one of „it’s my first day on the job“, when he is definitely a pro level player.
Nothing less than complete disqualification is acceptable. Kitchen table games are whatever, but if you're playing competitively you should be held to the highest standard of knowing how your rules work
If you cheat on a kitchen table game you deserve to be punched just for being an intentional asshat in a for fun game. Not a counter point to anything, just an addendum to cheating in that situation.
I was there, and as I said in my video Sunday, this git isn't an Ork player and we don't claim him. Dude was caught cheating on stream at an Open last year, got at least 2 yellow cards (including one with a 10 point drop in the shadow round), and absolutely knew he was cheating. He not only cheated the 9 players he played, he also cheated the winners/finalists of all of the other events who will never get recognition with a WarCom article, White Dwarf, etc.
I wouldn't undersell how big being able to throw ghaz in a t12 transport with AoC is. Hardest part about Ghaz is getting him in combat -- he's a massive model with M5, even if he can go through walls but he needs to touch you to do any damage.
It was reported he used the wagon as a stat check, and T12 AoC + Cover is just far more effective for that purpose. Massive fuckup.
Yeah it looks like cheating with a flimsy mea culpa. Cannot see the player being welcome around tournaments for a long time.
Word of mouth has it that he isn’t welcome in some regional communities around there, but it’s hearsay.
Honestly this is why I don't compete. I play this game casually and forget a lot of rules especially new ones like the other week I forgot about the two inch pivot for tanks. I am always open about this in games and when I play in the GW shop I always ask for confirmation. I remember I was playing chaos knights completely wrong letting the Karnivore attack with all weapons profiles even the shop owner said that was the right way. Then I played another chaos knights player and he corrected me. I felt horrible for all the victories I had with them.
This isn't a reason not to compete, but a reason why when folks like us want to compete we have to do our homework. I make errors too, and with the pace of updates and errata, (and multiple armies to keep track of 😅) it's easy to make small errors. But because we know we can make those errors it's on us to make a statcard for a unit we aren't as familiar with, it's on us to make sure we understand the rules for army building, modifications to vehicles, transport capacity etc. There are a ton of folks on this thread defending the player for making "little mistakes" at a HUGE tournament. If I was going to compete with my main army, the list I'm most confident, familiar and comfortable with, I would still bring my own stat cards and notepad with faq stuff for me to reference because it's on me as a player to make sure I follow my own rules before it's anyone else's. If you make consistent errors in your favor, even more reason to do what I've suggested so that you don't end up in this situation.
We all live and learn, but most of us have the integrity to not make our learning experience unfairly impact someone else's play experience.
@@cameronlang6858 Sure, but what you just said confirms I don't want to compete. Yeah I know most of the rules and try to stay updated, but I'm not doing homework for a game other than reading the data cards on the apps. This is a game, I'm not gonna take it that seriously. I favorite rules I have trouble with on the app and review rules. Not everyone thinks competing is fun.
I dont even play 'casually' at all because there is no such thing. At least 50% of games i played casually were people who turned up with a tournament list or were wanting to test a list for a tournament. There wasnt even any point setting up models. The game is toxic and then there are the issues with GW being unable to get its own rules right eg movement mess.
The 6 players he cheated should all get Golden Tickets.
If you stick to the app, it's very difficult to defend the position , "oh, I got it wrong". Even the rules are fairly easy to check quickly, I find when people use the cards, that's when it falls down as there so many updates all the time, the cards are never up to date, when you see un-marked cards, you know their up to something, well thanks for great report as normal, great channel.
This is huge reason the app and all of the codex's should be free and probably for bigger tournaments should be the way you submit your lists. Would make checking your opponents stuff easier and would result in less issues like this.
Somebody watch your vid about cheating? 🤔
Hah, I got that reference
I normally give players the benefit of the doubt because I make loads of mistakes. But….
1. My mistakes sometimes are to my detriment not always my benefit
2. I don’t enter into high level tournaments
You also don’t win high level tournaments and you were not caught blatantly cheating in the past. Imo what kills all his arguments is that he got caught cheating on camera in 2022 and is still lying about it. Why should I believe him now, when I can simply check that he is still lying?
I mean, as a TO for the last 18ish years, I would have DQ'd them. They have a history of cheating, they've done it with 6 bloody games, the rules are clear. If it had been a simple mistake, then depending on how contrite they were, my personal penalty would have varied from exactly what the judge did in this case in resetting ghaz, to explicitly removing ghaz and all attached units from play with any victory points for his destruction being awarded.
I mean, I'm not the level of the head judge that decided to retroactively lifetime ban a player for how a model they didn't build sits on a a stand that varies over the years of its production. But considering how many fewer cheaters the more stringent events tend to have, and how many of them reform when hit with actual penalties and a properly propagated notice of their behavior, it's better for the whole of the hobby to reserve gentle corrections for people who make their first mistake or are genuinely contrite over their mistakes.
I've had people when caught on a genuine mistake have offered to cede the points of the game irrespective of the outcome, only for their opponent to object and suggest they just play it out and let a judge decide at the end how to adjust. I've had cheaters who on multiple warnings have continued to cheat with a judge literally sitting on the margins of their table watching them. I've found cheaters with altered PDFs and printouts of their army rules, and in one very sad case, someone who accidently was sold a previous edition codex for their army who had to drop from the first round while we helped them cobble together a vaguely playable list from what they had, and what could be begged, borrowed, or bought at the event.
Funny how his "sloppy play" and "missteps" are always - ALWAYS in his favor. Generally when I forget rules it's more or less 50/50 if it benefits me or not - forgetting a piece of useful equipment on a model or not using a stratagem when it would have helped, but he has a long history of these kinds of "missteps" and they're 100% in his favor.
I'd recommend people read his actual reddit post - even players in his local scene previously warned him how it was going to be hard to view his mistakes as accidental, and yet the mistakes continued.
I my opinion he's a cheater, he's just a very good one that cheats in subtle ways that are easy to overlook individually, but if you take the totality of these events as a whole, it's very hard to imagine he just happens to always make beneficial mistakes
This is really the bit that stinks to me. Sloppy play tends to be neutral-to-negative for the sloppy player, at least over the long term. If it's consistently beneficial to the player, well, that suggests it's not really sloppiness.
Most good cheaters are able to cheat not through hiding it but through exerting social pressure to make you doubt your own instincts. He was able to hide it because a lot of people took what he said on trust, which allows the few times its happened to be called out to play off as a mistake, even though it's clearly intentional as he played it that way the whole event and never looked to correct himself. I've had it happen to me at an event which was 9th edition and someone was claiming to have character protection when they clearly didn't, I offered to look it up in the rulebook which was met with a very quick "it won't be in there, the rule changed recently!" (it hadn't), as soon as I mentioned I had the latest errata printed out he suddenly "allowed" me to do it, even though he was still trying to argue it was an illegal move. Sadly most of the competitive players I've encountered are soft cheats, there's an unfortunate culture of it in my area which is why I avoid events here.
It doesn't seem just sloppy, the battlewagon that was tougher could carry Gaz which it couldnt and a seperate character gouing from T5 to T6 (espeically one that you can only hit at shorter range makes a huge difference). Seems like a lot of "whoops I missed that -wink-" things
And it’s also not his first time doing this, and before he made his big post on the r/WarComp he was leaving comments defending himself all week
what baffles me is that someone who competes in such big events and plays for a rather long time apparently didn't read the footnote on ard case
doesn't add up for me
Oh...
I watched most of this video thing the "misplay" was in a single game but when I realized it was used in *5* other games before getting caught I couldn't justify it as an accident. I don't understand why they can't assign penalties to previous games. None of it is set in stone. Just a few months ago an F1 driver sued the FIA to change the result of the *2008* F1 championship. This is an entirely self imposed handicap that has no place in a competitive environment.
See it this way. If you make a mistake in your first game. And nobody tells you. You make the mistake in the rest of the games too. Because you think it is okay. And not a mistake. Because it was a mistake that began in the beginning of the tournament. I tend to believe it was genuine.
If he started to do it after 1 or 2 games not doing it. Yes thats fishy.
No one rereads the whole codex between games. If you play things the way you remember them and no one questions it, you'll assume that you remembered it correctly.
@@TheSegertI believe the opposite out of two reasons: 1) he was caught cheating before and 2) he is a good enough player to win a big tournament but gets his rules wrong all the time? And it’s only in his favor? Nope, not going to fly for me.
I could be wrong, but it seems as though whenever these 'mistakes' are made by players, they always seem to be mistakes that BENEFIT the player rather than it being a mistake to their detriment.
Is this coincidence? Or are there examples of people screwing themselves in tournaments that we just don't hear about.
I've certainly screwed myself over in casual play by forgetting rules etc, but the times I've been to tournaments I've always known and playtested the army I was taking to the point I'd know it inside out.
Yup. That's the litmus test to see if someone is really just forgetful/sloppy or cheating. How often do their mistakes work against them. Almost always when it's a dude like thus winning big tournaments it only ever goes one way...
I’ve made a misplay arguably on a bigger level: I misread the Palatine’s rapturous blows and thought it gave mortals to her whole unit and played it like that in the first round of an escalation league, so like three games. In my defense the amount of games of 40k I had ever played was in the single digits at that point, but i still feel really guilty about it. I went undefeated in the league but there’s an asterisk there I can’t forget
Tactical Tortoise had what I thought was a good review of the situation. m.czcams.com/video/FBVP_kjAhE0/video.html
Some important bullet points:
1) That tournament didn’t use any sort of yellow/red card system at all
2) The error was detected during a Shadow Round match, which was a seeding match between rounds 6 and 7
3) There was never any intent or attempt to kick the player in question out
4) In the aftermath, the player voluntarily forfeited his result, and gave all of the prizes, including the Golden Ticket, trophy, etc.
Wait so the same ork player was also using higher toughness on a model?? I’m thinking there may be a pattern here
Not a misplay. This guy is a known cheater and he needs to get help or just stop playing in comp 40k. Just like Lanigan, he should just stop.
What about TJ? Last I met him he was an amazing opponent
And if you're talking about the one time TJ got caught a few years back, he apologised, took time off, came back and I've never heard anything bad about him since, are we really not giving people 2nd chances? Don't we all make mistakes?
Marshall though is a known repeat offender, not defending him at all but stop going ape on TJ, he's changed and atoned by now
@@tidus123456789012 How is purposely cheating a "mistake"?
@@krilc how is it not a mistake? A mistake is an act or judgement that is misguided or wrong. He fucked up, he apologised, he changed. Stop harassing the guy for something he did years ago and has since reformed himself
Jesus Christ, do you teach a course in pedantics? "How is it not a mistake?... In judgement?" Ba dum tish!
I would think that errors made that only benefit you are certainly not errors at all but more likely cheating.
When you make this many 'mistakes', at this many events, i think Misplay is not the right term.
Glad Marshal stepped up and took responsibility and dropped, heres hoping he continues to work on things and becomes a healthier member of the community.
This is where rules mastery becomes very critical. It's really hard. It's a lot of memorization with competitive. If you want to be the best combatant. There is no "simplified not simple", it's quite the opposite.
I gather the scenario is a “that guy” issue in reference to his errors only go one way. We would never hear about him if he errored nerfing himself. All we’ve heard is he misread rules, in this AND PAST competitions, to buff himself. BL: he ruined the tournament experience for 6+ other players and that can’t be resolved.
Oh i heard about this, people kept talking about yellow cards tho which is weird cause gw dont use a card system at their tournantns
As a guy who's an Ork regular and is the "Ork Guy" around the local Tacoma GW: _This guy is not me, and am very annoyed this Ork guy screwed it up for the rest of us._
2:10 Okay, that guy's *blatantly cheating.* Ghaz hasn't been allowed in a battlewagon w/ 'ard case upgrade & Zzap gun since at least 9th, if not 8th edition.
What I can't understand is that this should have all been clear via the mandatory app or whatever list the contestants are supposed to present up front right? Isn't that the whole point of list-building - knowing the exact stats of your units (and the organizers/judges knowing your units and capabilities for ruling purposes)? Wouldn't there be at least one copy of each current codex/index for reference on hand for a tourney this big?
40k just shouldnt be a competitive 'pro gamer' hobby. Leave that to the cod no lifes
I'll be honest... This does not look like a misplay, but a blatant cheat.
If Aardcase gives you +2T, how could you miss the firing deck limitation?
Especially with current edition rules where these kinds of things are more likely to be a tradeoff, with no upgrade costs. This was no mistake in my opinion, more of a "I hope nobody notices" kind of deal.
Now... You may say you should not attribute malice to what can be explained by incompetence... But no... I've seen enough cheaters in my life to know that in tournaments you should ASSUME malice.
Especially when the player in question has a history of similar "misplays". That reeks of cheating.
The bigger problem I see is that judges lacked the basic knowledge to actually spot this. Nobody checks the lists? The rules? Don't they have sheets and other resources at hand?
This is why I gave up on tournaments many years ago. Not the cheating, but the atmosphere. Some of the most fun I've had were in games where mistakes were made and laughed off. And learned from. I'm miserable when every little part of the game is under the microscope.
I'm not criticizing people for enjoying tournaments. But other than events like the friendly doubles at Adepticon, this sounds like an awful time.
Purposfully losing the first and or second game is the best choice tbh. Playing low level tables games 3-5 goes super hard. I love it!
Friendly mistakes happen and there are no stakes. This is blatant cheating. No excuse.
In most tournaments, mistakes are not an issue, because they are mistakes, and you make them in both directions. Nobody plays a perfect game of warhammer.
What we have here though is a guy that has done some of the most cold-blooded cheating possible, on camera. The mistakes only happen in his favor, and they don't happen when there's a judge watching. It's someone who actually knows the rules, and decides to change them to guarantee the win.
A random player making mistakes is a low stakes thing, which is completely different than what happens here.
Good for the second place but still bad for all the other gamers who had to play against the cheater
Also seems he has a repeated story of cheating - don’t understand how those guys are not banned
“I made the same mistake in a casual game”. This is the difference he went on a competitive tournament where you have to know your rules and stats. No problem at looking at the app or cards to give you a quick reminder or to be sure.
Same thing about your “easy to make mistake because of last edition”.
This video seems pretty apologetic about this guy regular un-sporty behavior
Oh dear... the little dice rolling game
Ive played a ton of casual tyranid games with my Tervigon having a 4+ invulnerable save
I mean, it was a mandela affect moment when i found out it didnt
"Ah! I must be thinking of 9th edition im so sorry"
*checks 9th edition stats*
"...wtf???"
No invuln
I felt so bad for all the moments i made 4++ saves against meltas and the like
Immediately told my opponents my mistake every those from months before
When тotally justifies "Strong but Cunning" =)
My opinion is this - a stupid restriction on Hard Case led to a stupid situation.
GW layers on a huge number of layers of stupid rules for only have the rules.
We live in an age where there is a 50/50 chance, AT BEST, that someone isn't trying to cheat at whatever. Whatever would include TT wargaming lol
Oh boy, I'd heard about this but I hadn't realized the Tacoma Open was a Really Big Deal.
I wonder if perhaps they used an army list building application or aid that gave unclear information - since most vehicle add-ons these days are just 'tick this box to not nerf yourself pointlessly', maybe they did so out of habit and the application just added that rule to the others. I know I had an iffy situation with Battlescribe recently (not in a tournament, thank goodness) in which it implied to me that Blue and Brimstone horrors used the defensive stats of Pink Horrors until the Pink Horrors were all gone, crucially including Objective Control, since the application did not provide defensive stats for them with the Pink Horror entry and stated that one would swap to the Blue Horror rules once there were no Pink Horrors left. That did have a sizeable impact on the final score. Fortunately it was a game between friends, and afterwards when I found the proper ruling, I apologised and was quickly forgiven.
In the end, two very different situations, and in both the responsibility is to have properly studied one's army list using more than just a list builder, but I can see how such errors could happen, giving a hefty benefit of the doubt.
I think the punishment was sound but light, I think the tournament scene isn t known to treat cheating well, and lack the time and logistics to make a just punishment, so many of them only punish you lightly for cheating by fear of being too disruptive to the event.
This is why codex locking rules is a bad idea. If everything wasn’t behind a paywall you could easily identify an opponents “misplay” or verify a rule
Understand why aspect is taking a conversative view, but this is incredibly suss.
The judges need to take 50% at least of the blame here. Its shocking that it was missed for 5 games.
The moment i saw ghaz and the battlewagon i knew what the problem would be. As an ork player, it is VERY easy to make this mistake. I have done so many times myself (luckily realizing the mistake before an actual game) but the inconsistent "can embark/cant embark" clauses on the BW are quite easy to overlook/miss.
Its just competitive Warhammer being competetive Warhammer
As this game picks up steam, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel with this stuff, MTG figured it out a long time ago and has an exact rhubric. And to be clear in this situation, you can by longer win a 6 round competitive event like this without being very, very good at the game; so good that missing something like this is inconceivable. Lifetime ban.
I don't mean to be melodramatic but they've done shame to my chosen faction. Orks are there for the fight, win, loss or draw. Orks should pride themself on being able to deliver a good krumpin' even in defeat. I'm glad he came and opened up about the event but this man is not an Ork player at heart.
Ork player, space marine player, whoever, knows the basic rulz of his army and if you go to an important event much more
So, so, glad that GW shaped 10th ed around the competitive scene. Just look at the players it attracts now at high profile events! And we've had so many this year already!
This isn't a game for the kitchen table any more. This is just embarrassing.
Easiest way to spot the difference between cheating and misplay: Does it always benefit the player in question and does it happen often? If so, it is cheating.
Until recently I made two mistakes in my Warhammer Fantasy Empire army. I thought pistols were 8" reach, which disadvantaged me both in reach and to-hit-rolls. Also I thought Pegasi had WS4 instead of 3. That was to my advantage. I got corrected on both and non play it properly. Don't know where I got those wrong numbers from, but it was so basic, I never looked it up.
I had an issue in 8th edition. I went to a tournament with csm and I didn’t know the 8.5 codex had come out the week before. They let me play and I got last place. I got a prize for being the worst though so it wasn’t all bad
One of my biggest misplays (in AoS though) was against StD player who had just got and built Bel'akor. I played Kharadron Overlords and used a balloon ship (the smallest ship) with a Torpedo Enhancement (after successful charge, roll dice, on a 2+ deal Mortal Wounds equal to roll) and thought that the number of Mortal Wounds was equal to charge roll (I rolled 11), which killed Bel'akor. We noticed it like two weeks later and we still joke about it to this day.
When the ork player decided to upgrade for the zap gun they must of made the choice to not have gaz in the transport. At a big tournament like this surely people musf be very well versed in their own army rules ......... Even the smallest varials can give a huge advantage .... Let's be clear this wasn't a friendly game using proxy minatures. In my opinion it's not the worst rules error but because of the higher meta standard of tournament the ork player was right to concede the game.
If only there was an app where we could access the rules to check our opponents that wasn't needlessly redacted...
I think a few people all surmounted to the whole scenario, not in the right nor wrong, we all make mistakes whether intentional or not that is just being human. The misplaying individual should be carrying more guilt and I believe should have done more than taking the -10 VP on the chin as it’s his duty to get his army specific rules correct to the best of his ability, likewise judges I believe should have had something a little more harsher such as probably putting him in the lower skill bracket at about half way up. Its not of their fault but also his opponents, they only wished to trust their opponent that they get such datasheet things correct but there may have been opportunities for them to ask him if he could show them on the data cards where it’s shown. In the end that is just my opinion on the matter.
The player’s comments on why it happened on Reddit for r/warhammercompetitive was wild. It was a roast
sorry to wull acshually you but the subreddit is r/warhammercompetitive
Thanks for covering this. Tried to listen to mordian but bros background music was louder than his voice almost.
from the outside it seems like a mistake but people in the comments say that he cheats often so there is that I guess...
Surely army lists are submitted and checked before the tournament? If the guy had only recently started playing orks, yes rules can be mistakenly used etc. This has effected all his opponents since round 1. I for one before a tournament will go through my army list constantly ironing out any mistakes that could have arisen in the building of it.
There's a quote for this kind of behavior. "It's only called cheating if you get caught".
the list itself is correct but he played it differently in the games
I think an important thing is that hes a high level competitive player. Especially something in list building, you shouldn’t have such a large error that you had a vehicle that couldn’t take a model taking that model (obviously this isn’t technically in the list building step of the rules but when planning your army you know what units you’re putting in transports so what I’m going to say still holds true). This isn’t a time where there’s little time or high pressure, you’re probably just sitting in front of your computer looking at data sheets. The snikrot thing is what it is, if that was the only thing I’d be inclined to be like that’s unfortunate but whatever, it probably wasn’t intentional, but I think if you’re playing at that level any mistake in list design is intentional. Whether you intentionally did it knowing it isn’t allowed, or just intentionally didn’t check, I don’t care, you clearly didn’t act in good faith to make sure your list all worked. If you are misplaying in this stage of the game, specifically if you’re in a high level competitive environment like this, it isnt acceptable at all. Obviously if this happened in a casual game, it’s whatever, and if he was a new player who was at his first tournament and placed 367 out ~400 it isn’t a huge deal, but when you’re competing for the top spot it’s unacceptable. When you get to a certain level there should be a higher standard, especially for stuff that is pre game like this. Everyone misremembers stuff in the moment of the game, but this isn’t one of those cases and for a highly competitive player it’s far more egregious than I think a lot of people are giving it credit for.
How the hell are these misplays when they are playing at a competitive level? Surely this is stuff they should know or am expecting too much of high level players haha
I think the reason people tend to make mistakes in their favor is that when they're building an army, they're looking for what's effective. I.e. - they will miss limitations when making an army because they're NOT LOOKING FOR limitations.
If they're looking at the opposing army, they're looking for weaknesses. And so they find the limitations because that's what they're looking for.
You could call this "subconscious bias" or whatever.
for those of you thinking 2 toughness isnt much
las cannons wound on 3's now its 4s
defiler cannons are now 5s not 4s
demon prince's with khorne word are now 5s not 4s
sister tanks are 5 not 4
tau cannons are 5s not 4s now, some are now 4s not 3s
basically
most anti-tank weapons in the game are affected by the LITTERAL TANK CARRYING A WARLORD being 2 toughness higher.
I am glad that the player in question conceded his win and gave it to the player who placed Second. I do hope he improves his play in the future if he plays on continuing playing in tournaments.
Did you watch the video where he 'misplays' on Wargames Live, and straight out reads a sentence from the book while skipping the words that say his opponent is right? It's just the coldest, most blatant cheating one can have without lying about dice rolls.
This person is a repeat offender, and has multiple times in the past blatantly ignored parts of rules that don't benefit him.
@jorgemontero6384 I have not seen the video. I'll give it a watch.
@@Basically_Anybody That is what I have been hearing on Reddit these past few days.
Improves his play? He just needs a 2 year ban, get fucking rid of him.
The main reason I don’t believe these are misplays is his history of playing various armies in tournaments. If someone is playing Astra Militarum and then Votann and now Orks, I would hope and expect that he would be reviewing the rules for his new army, especially before a GT. That makes it very hard for me to believe these were simple, honest mistakes. One, OK. Two or more? No. I’m sorry I don’t buy that.
Back in the day, this was called a 'bendy tape measure' situation.
misreading several rules in such a way that always benefits him seems like more than "sloppy" play.
The snikrot thing is a misplay. Ill give him that. As going from T5 to T6 doesnt really affect the wounding characteristics.
However going from T10 to T12 is a massive intentional fault. That is 100% more difficult to kill as there are very few S13+ weapons, but a ton of S12 weapons.
At game 6 he should have conceded the win as soon as that was revealed. Not just the -10pts and resetting Ghaz.
Ghaz should have been 'killed' Instead of reset to deployment, as it was 100% illegal play.
In order to make it to a Major GT you need to have played your army alot. There is no excuse that he "misplayed" that.
You dont just wake up one day and decide to buy 2000pts of a fully painted army, and then fly to a different city to play a GT.
Going from t5 to t6 does actually change a lot of wounding characteristics. Heavy bolters, most heavy flamers, any s3 shooting (lasguns, autoguns) s10 shooting like battle cannons. T6 is a definite threshold, with definite impacts, especially on a model with lone op
No it isn't a misplay, he's simply cheating.
Once a cheater always a cheater. There's no recovering a reputation. There will always be a cloud following you around no matter how much you change.
It's only a misplay if it's a new army you're getting used to. Any "misplay" in a tournament setting that just so happens to always benefit said player, turns into intentional cheating
People should calm down. We all are humans and make mistakes. We see that judges and organizers don't have problems here. Just Redditors are losing their minds here.
Because they don’t have the authority to issue proper bans… that’s up to GW. This is a problem, this guy needs a 2 year ban at least. He’s been doing this literally since he started competing, and has been caught literally lying about his own rules while reading them out of his book, just straight up skipping the line that is not in his favor.
You missed the Kill Team drama at Tacoma where a notorious slow player timed out multiple games to win losing games and got the golden ticket.
I would say, casual with thunder cannon in battle wagon and Grazghkull I have messed up that rule before, took me 3 games to realize i messed up on that part. But at tournament he should have dropped out. Or he should have lost thoes wins
Ive never not corrected a rule within 1 game after breaking it. I re check all my rules between matches and during the match. He cheated.
Especially something SO prevalent and easy to check in the datasheets. I know my armies toughness and I still check every phase where they get hit to make sure.
@@loganparry2676 That is the whole point of having the rules in front of you. That is why it's required at events. You can't use battlescribe at events? Why? Obviously. I feel you man.
@@rellikskuppin7417Why can’t you use BattleScribe?
@@rellikskuppin7417 yea, I don’t understand the no battlescribe rule other than it’s not official? But it’s way better than the gw app
@loganparry2676 they have stopped updating it in 10th edition so leviathan mission pack will be the last for 10th. Uber sad. Try updating your 40k core rule set and you will get an error message
Ardcase doesnt lower the capacity, it just removes firing deck, its only when you take the zzap gun ghaz cant ride in it
Fence riding when this is blatant cheating is a bad look
It seems like it'd be a lot easier to give them the benefit of the doubt if it weren't for the fact that competitive play brings out the worst in most people to begin with. "casual" cheating is a constant at tournaments, and it just sounds like he got caught.
No competitive game will change game results if not discovered before start of the next round. Nor should they. Trying to correct past rounds skews unrelated things and snowballs the further back in the event you go
Got to say I like the AoS tournament scene better. Way more relaxed.
I constantly misplay, sometimes to my benefit, sometimes to a huge detriment. I once played with Salamanders against Deathguard in 9th, during a time when my army specifically forbid his from rerolling wounds, which was one of the Deathguards main abilities at the time and I completely forgot about that ability. Then just a few days ago, I played in a Warhammer Fantasy Beginners Tournament and got confused about the entire system with strength, toughness, Combat Ability and Armor. Me and my opponend both didn't quite get the rules though (beginner tournament), so we just decided to revive half of his troops killed in that round.
The difference between me and this guy: I play very rarely, even my main system 40k is only played by me once every couple of months or so. When you are in a big, official tournament and your "misplays" concern two of your centerpiece models, it is a lot harder to believe. And even if one made these mistakes without intention, they should definitly work hard on their rules knowledge.
Theres misplays and this. Just today i realized me proxing my patriarch as a broodlord has been illegal because even though its almost the exact same model, down to most of its datasheet, its on a different base. That was an honest mistake because i actually have never seen a nid brood lord and the sheet says nothing about it
Honestly the datasheet/warscroll should just immediately say what base size it's on.
tournaments with 40k rules have always been ridiculous...
40k INVITES people to cheat
Wanna play competitive?
Join a chess tournament...
I'm brand new. But I would side on the defense of the player making the mistake. Like there are so many updates and the books are apparently not like consistent with tournament play. It's a lot to keep track of.
Now I can see how someone could "play this up".
He’s done this before, in previous editions and tournaments. He lied-on stream-to his opponent when reading rules from his book. And this is a high profile competitive event.
Constantly making “mistakes” which always happen to be in your favor to a significant degree isn’t making mistakes. It’s cheating. And if it IS making mistakes, you shouldn’t be at an event like this.
So he got caught in the last game of the tourney..
And it's because of videos like this that put me off tournaments. I don't believe that for a second the players involved didn't know they were cheating
I don't care about drama.
In a tournment, you MUST know your army. You aren't here to do a casual play with your friends.
Many players have bad memories of a tournament game where an opponent cheated by “forgetting” the rules. During my last tournament, my GC opponent continued to use his rerolls on his acolytes who repopped while his character was dead.
In a tournament, everyone wants to win and we can accept defeat if the opponent was better or if we made mistakes.
But when it is the adversary who makes a mistake (to his advantage) in the rules of his army, it is unacceptable.
And where did he take the 10 point hit he said he took when all his scores are 90+? He score a 107 on match 6?
Yall can't blame an Ork for being BrutallyKunnin'
It was right for the guy to give up his win. I was at a tournament where far worse was done by one player who then went on to win. It makes everyone feel bad when someone wins due to being sloppy with the rules, intentional or not.
HAPPY KRUMPINGG!!
I’m glad i don’t play in 40k tournaments
I played at Tacoma and had a great time, there were over 400 players there who weren't this cheating asshole.
Me too . Sounds like torture.
Nothing prevents me from playing with friends or going to shops with like minded ppl.
But this competitive scene sorta just sucks the fun out of the game just feels soulless i know know i don't hafto engage in it.
Non-stop content machine.
Tacoma Wept
Cheating in a game like this as a full grown adult is just pathetic
You know what could have helped make this harder to do?
Having the 6 options that exist in 40k cost points
This is why i dont play competative. I have ADHD. I forget stuff. Or cannot remember all the data. And do make mistakes. I would never want to be accused to be a cheater. I just want to have fun.
Given the facts of this story. I tend the give the play the benifit of the doubt. That he is maybe like me. Check if he made any mistakes that where not in his favour. If so. Then boom. you got your answer. And indeed it was sloppy play. If he was a real cheater. He probably would have kept the win.
Also i think the refs are more responsible. The refs should have said at the first game. Hey! you cannot do that. Instead at the 6th. So this whole thing was more a mistake from the refs than him. They let him get away with it 5 times! maybe 5 different refs. If i made a mistake in my first game. And i wasnt corrected. I would also think. It would be correct. And if i do the same thing 5 games. Yes. I would be confident that it was correct.
Also the thougness one is a very easy mistake.