G81 to the DEEPEST Depth I Have Ever Attempted
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
- Putting the new 12xD Drill from Kennametal to the test in 1018 Steel without using a pilot drill. They claim it can be done. Will it survive?
00:00 What goes into drilling a hole?
00:24 Can 12xD be done without a pilot drill?
00:49 Concerns with not using a pilot drill
01:20 Testing the Kennametal 12xD in 1018 Steel
02:27 How do the drilled holes measure up?
04:12 Comparing the 12xD to different style drills
07:08 Recap
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#Machining #Machinist #Engineering - Věda a technologie
I never knew so much design and engineering work went into what most people consider a simple tool. Interesting video.
A drill point is anything but simple
I'd love to see you guys do a video on gundrilling to show off what it takes to get 50-100XD. Not many people make videos on them but the tech and machines that run gun drills are amazing.
We want to see more and more videos like this one jessie
Thank you for this lesson and have a good time brother BOOM 💥
Loved this one. Great job getting into the nitty gritty of drill tip design and the engineering that goes into it. I can only imagine there are guys at Kennametal who dream about this stuff in their sleep.
Excellent content! Diving into these cutting geometries are so important to choosing the right tool for the job. And BTW not only is the drill doing an awesome job so is that 5 axis machine, vise and holders... Winning at every level!
For some guys to know, the 4 land drill geometry isn't a new thing. I have tooling from old GM factory work that used the 4 land geometry. The tip thinning is something I (personally) used quite often, (in more general work) whenever I would hand sharpen a worn drill. (Use a drill jig if available). Learning methods to sharpen drills helps a lot in understanding how to increase your productivity, longevity, and precision. Just for reference, on a common standard drill tip, nearly 30% of the pressure is on the chisel tip, making it more apt to wander in a deep hole.
Such a great video, explaining every detail of a common item, and then you begin to understand the wonderfull engineering that goes in to these things.
Again and again, great videos
Boom👊
I work for and extrusion die company and for the heater holes we have to drill a .75 hole 13 inches deep no peck no pilot and no spot and it turns out really good. We do it with an Iscar inserted drill. I absolutely love those Iscar drills. They’re super accurate super fast and they leave an awesome finish for a drill. For those holes we run it at 2000rpm 15ipm in P20. Literally the only thing I don’t like about them is they’re loud af especially once you get over 1in
Whoa, amazing. Didn't imagine that was even possible. Thanks!
Awesome video Jessie! those drills are bad ass!!!
Awesome video Jessie!
I am not a machinist, but I find this stuff fascinating. I would LOVE to learn more. Then the next time someone says 'this one only cost X and it's a drill bit too' (or any other tool) there is a reason for that.
Thanks Jesse. That was very informative, concise and overall helpful. RU guys going to be offering these on your website or do we get these from our normal supplier? Really nice job 👍
I appreciate the wide application of this knowledge vs the “you’re never gonna do that” videos. Thanks!!
Nice vid explaining the nitty-gritty things of a "simple" tool like a drillbit. Over a century of knowledge and trial and error, testing and engineering put into such a thing everybody takes for granted nowadays. My "PR" is 146xD with a D=12mm gundrill ... Anybody bidding more ? :D Runout was under a millimeter and surface finnish was on fleek.
Peace guys! Love your vids!
Jessie, very good explanation. You make a great teacher.
If you would like a precise true position with a deep drill, I recommend drilling slightly undersize first only deep enough past the tip angle, come in with an endmill and bring the hole to the exact size of the drill, then spot drill, then drill, and if you want to be even crazier do this with a boring head then a drill. You can get .0001-.0002 accuracy doing this.
took me about the entire video to realize that by 12 times D you were referring to the lenght-to-diameter ratio
Is this possible in stainless?
Did you reduce feed on entering and exit?
Could you share information about coolant type, pressure and flow?
I dont have experience with the kennametal tooling, but it's definitely possible. I've done it in 316, 304, 416, durabar (ductle iron), and some alloy steels using Walter titex drills and Mitsubishi drills, which look similar to those in the video but with a different coating. NUMBER 1 is that the drill needs to be running perfectly concentric. You should be running it in a nice shrink fit or hydraulic toolholder. The less runout the better. 2 tool diameter and drill length play a large part in the cutting strategy. Generally, if it's over 18x in smaller diameters you'd use a pilot drill to go 1x diameter deep then run the large drill OR slow down the feed on the long drill until you reach that 1x diameter depth than run at recommend speeds. The big issues to overcome with deep hole drilling is that you need high-pressure through coolant to cool the tip and to evacuate the chips as well as a rigid and very accurate toolholder. My old company did a lot of deep holes in stainless and relatively hard alloy steels.
That KennaUniversal drill is mutli-material. They advertise it for steel, stainless, and cast iron, but they also have the SGL up to 40xD for 300 series stainless.
Incrível, acredito que ainda não temos essa tecnologia na Kenanmetal do Brasil, excelente explicação acerca das forças envolvidas no processo de furação ! Thank you very much my brothers !
Hey there i'm from germany and in my company training we were using quite a few drills by GARANT. They were about 30xD and were generaly very pleasant to work with.
I remember using a 4.2mm drill with 25xD and drilled 200 holes in a row without any problems. Maybe they are something you could try out? Great Video btw :)
garant is underrated, we use them a lot too
CNC guy from Portugal, here. Been using Garant for a couple of years and i'm very pleased. Nice quality, huge catalog, professional service and very nice prices.
Up to 50xD the Garant deep hole system is unbeaten. I work in bottling and filling industry. I saw 4mm drills with over 200mm fluthe lengh running in V4A. I don't understand whats so special about 12xD
@@Theo-yc4yoGarant is just a brand. They buy there stuff of many different manufacturers.
Those Kennametal drills get up to 72xD I saw in one video!
Good watch ty. Toddler is asking for a "flame colored titanium unicorn pretty please."
Love it👌
I need my engineering team to watch this!! 80% of my jobs are 1018 or 1026, total crap material. They always think I'm being a drama queen when I complain and ask them to ask the customer if we can use something better, even if we eat the cost. A little cost in material vs scrap, rework, bad finishes, deburring, etc, is well worth it. To make it worse they anneal the 1018 and 1026, which makes it incredibly difficult.
Had a bore on stainless drilled, 4.2mm diameter and 152mm in length and had to get it to .6ra surface finish afterwards. Did it successfully but took a lot of labour to get the finish. It had 8 cross bores aswell
Let Barry show us what's impossible, SPOT on with all the Tech & some . TITAN allways looking @ the next variable of delivery BOOM
Excellent👍
The other main issue is get forced coolant to drill point.
Perhaps the main issue.
My best hole was 6mm 18in. Dp. I used to make rotary dies and the male tool Hydraulic holes were 18in dp. And had to have a 3mm cross hole so straight was the name of the game
I like what you did with the title sir
Can you make a video on the benefits and disadvantages of 3 flute drills and club drills?
What do you do when the hole relieves internal stress in the material and it moves?
I like your video, greetings from Germany
Would the margin that is not directly behind the cutting edge hinder the swarf from getting out? Impressive demo. What are the feeds and speeds you ran this test at?
1:28
I quite often go up to 17-20xd with a 10mm drill from WNT for drilling water cooling channels in mold tools but I always drill the first 50mm or so with a standard 5xd drill first, how far would you think you could reasonably go if you went the same approach? Assuming machine z height wasn’t an issue?
I'd bet up to the max cutter length they sell off the shelf. So long as you have through tool coolant and a good toolholder I don't see why you wouldn't be able to
You can go quite deep, 40xD for example, but sometimes you'll need to step in with multiple pilot drills for the highest precision end result.
3xD, then 12xD, the 25xD , then 40xD for example.
I did multiple 12xD holes in 1.2343 with a beyond drill from kennametall. Worked fine without any pilot drilling needed
This drill probably didn't need that spot
More Tech and perimeters with insite make for me equal great vids.
Could you do this on an eighth inch drill?
How about drilling some S7 like that?
wow, this is wild
Sir what is your main products and your main work/position to ur company
Been knocking out holes in aluminum blocks for a week with those drills.
One of the best if not the best drill tip grind is the Bickford drill tip grind.
UUUEEGGHH?!?!
@@AmandaHuggenkiss Google Bickford Helical Point, a special drill grinding machine is needed to create the point. The very tip of the drill acts like a dedicated center drill and along with the main body of the drill a highly accurate hole can be achieved.
Nice point! The Bickford point is actually very similar to Kennametal's current HPR that Titan showed in another video. It works great in cast iron AND steel.
How did they add the cooling holes?!???????
Question? does drilling cycle require pecking with type of drill? or can it be omitted. Second can resharping done by hand ,conventional means. or have go into special drill grinder?
Do not peck with these drills. Also generally you need to get these factory recut and recoated. The coating is the more important part. Also many high end drills have a special radius on the cutting edges to increase tool life and that needs to be done by the factory.
The other reply here is correct.
Peck drilling is not required and frequently a cause of a lot of problems.
The most impact to the drill is when it first enters the cut. Peck drilling causes multiple re-entries of the cut for each hole and in the case of stainless steel can cause work hardening of the freshly cut area. Pecking can also create room for a chip to get stuck and that recutting of the chip and damage the drill.
The precision required on these drills means you absolutely CANNOT resharpen by hand they way you may have learned to do a HSS twist drill back in the day.
I am having difficulty getting past 6inch is there anyway to enlarge my tool?
😅
You may need a prosthetic tool
But how do they drill 100+XD holes? I saw that on hydraulic cylinder rods for a linear position sensor.
Gun or BTA drills. Like unisig does.
Cannon drills
What kind of machines are used to build high-end drills ?
It’s usually a CNC Grjnder from Anca, Walter or Rollomatic. You can grind carbide end mills and drills.
You can You Tube them.
@@bobmac9070 thanks 😀
@@jmyyerThere are many many more manufacturers of grinding machines.
When using a pilot drill, what prevents an even finer drill to not walk and wobble even more?
It will. Be you will then use the finish drill to bring it to size. It will walk much, much less with less material to remove.
splitting the web is key to chip breaking and the right clearance for .014-.016 feed per rev🥰😇
how about a 3 flute design drill? could it be even longer than 12xD?
We are manufacturing 75xD and higher.
Three flute drills are often at a disadvantage except in aluminum maybe.
There is only so much room in a drill and you have to balance the core diameter (for strength) with the flute size (for chip evacuation). Steel and stainless is so tough that a 3 flute drill becomes too weak to out perform a very strong 2 flute drill.
Chip evacuation is VERY important on deep hole drills and you cannot sacrifice flute size for deep drilling.
Be interesting to know how they machine in the coolant channels.
maybe with edm or something
Does “D” here refer to the diameter of the drill/hole? (I have 0 machining experience, so I don’t know these kinds of things)
Yup, exactly.
A 12d hole with a 1” diameter would be 12” deep.
@@mrnoodley Thanks!
how do you sharpen it when it gets dull?
Send it to the manufacturer. Main reason for this is its not the grinding that really matters its the coating. And only the factory can recoat them as usually the coating is proprietary
I speak with tool manager, he said, the longest drill he use was 72D
We drill 1/2” dia and 14” deep holes on crankshafts everyday
Always wondered how to drill DEEP holes in plates. Like for a cooling platen.
12xD is not really that deep... Deep hole Gundrills can make holes 40xD +
For really deep holes you need a specialized machine that can take gundrills. You don't need a pilot hole too if you are drilling into a flat surface at no angle. They drill gets guided in a hardened very tight fit bushing for perfect centering on the position. After the drill is inside the material it guides itself on the OD of the hole it drills. You can achieve really excellent surface finnishes RA 1,6 or better is typical for most materials and the runout per 100mm is usually under 0,1mm. Thats around 0,004" every 4 inches, most of the times you can get away with way less tho. I already drilled holes myself with up to 146xD in Stainless for vacuum chambers.
@@robinnussbaumer5943fr 12x us pretty basic. I've seen 30x in a 6.5 mm drill in stainless that was impressive. Mitsubishi twist drill with coolant holes
@@printgymnast368 um i guess you awnsered to the wrong person but yup thats what i said 12xD is really nothing... We even had 12xD as standard in our machines at one point
@robinnussbaumer5943 No, I was agreeing with you. We also had 12x as standard on many of our machines. This video is confusing to me. idk why they didn't go for a larger ratio
The best Iv done was drill 8xD with a 6 inch spade bit, no pilot, in a 50HP German made radial drill, it was a #6morse taper holder and I had to get a ladder, every 12 inches I had to pull the drill out, raise the arm, and add an extension to drill, by the time I had 4 extensions that machine was shaking so bad😂 the material was 1018 steel
This is big Tech on drilling design
I have a few parts that require me to go 15xD and 20xD. Always trips me out to see this extreme length with no pilot haha.
I use a process that hasn't failed me yet.
Pilot with same diameter drill, to a max depth of 3xD
tool change to extended drill
G0 XY POSITION
G56 H# Z.100
S300 M4
G1 F20. .100 ABOVE DEPTH OF PILOT HOLE
M5
HP THRU COOLANT ON
G4 DWELL TO HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES TO PRESSURIZE
1/2 FINAL RPM M3
G4 DWELL COUPLE SEC TO ENSURE SPINDLE IS TO SPEED
FEED DOWN 1/2 FINAL FEEDRATE TO 6xD
RETRACT .100 ABOVE 6xD
RAMP UP TO FINAL RPM
G4 DWELL FEW SEC TO ALLOW FULL SPEED
FEED DOWN 100% FINAL FEEDRATE TO FINSHED DEPTH
RETRACT .100 ABOVE FINAL DEPTH
M5
S300 M4
G1 F20. Z.100
M9
Big stuff is great for the camera but I want to see a 12x deep .75mm hole in a tough material.
craziest hole i had to make was L=60mm and diameter 3,1mm in to hard stainless steel cant remember exact number but it was for food industry
I recently had to do a 42xD with a .0625” drill.
my deepest hole was 50xD with a 1mm hss drill xDDDD
@@todclanchannel4093 what material, mine was 304ss
@@kw2519 here in germany we say 1.4571
@@todclanchannel4093 that’s great, but I’m in the US lol also, you didn’t specify your unit of measure 😂
Try 1/8” Dia 4” deep in 17-4, no through spindle coolant, can peck, can pilot. OSG said NO. Guhring said why!
Been doing 10xD depths without piloting the past 2 years ... 12xD should be cool . Mitsubishi MPS drills rock :)
I'm using a Guhring 30xD on tool steel. There is no need for gun drills anymore lol
Jesse, what’s a “pile-it” drill? 😂
True one shot is in a flat surface. Spotting makes it 2 shot might as well use a pilot at that point.
The spot drill was unnecessary here.
At least he used a 140° spot not a 90°
We use Walter 12D for pilots for long time now.
Hi Barry
Why not use a 3Z drill instead? I guess they are as self-centering as this high-tech drill, but much cheaper, aren't they?
They are not as strong or productive (can't drill as quick) in steels and stainless and they don't evacuate chips as well in deep applications.
Must be nice having good tools and sponsors. Unlike the real world.
Why can't you buy the same tools?
This is the real world. There must be a cost justification, but high precision carbide drills creat better holes faster and get better tool life so the cost really works out.
I would think a pilot drill would deflect.more- and lead the final dtill off center.
If you want to drill deep… like 10 to 40XD.
It’s best to drill just a few inches deep with a rigid short drill… and then you drop down with a deep long drill. I have a video on this channel where I taught on drilling 40XD… you can search it.
Thanks,
Titan
czcams.com/video/Trx99-oT2R8/video.html
No not really, you need to use a good solid carbide drill the same size as the deep hole drill but only drill one diameter deep. That helps get a good straight hole. I be sold a lot of them in my career.
Now do a 12xd drill in a 3D printed inconel hole!
That drill will drill Inco. You slow the SFM and would see a tool life reduction over 1018 steel, but the hole quality would be the same.
Can you drill a 12D hole without CTS?
Why not use G73 instead of G81 for a hole 12x the diameter???
now how to justify these tooling costs to a boss who took away christmas bonuses and gave us a pizza party.
300% better tool life and 600% higher productivity along with better precision and hole quality means the cost-per-hole goes WAAAAY down as long as nobody is stealing the drills or dropping them on the floor. Time = money
Convince your boss how, why, and when to invest in tools like this and you make yourself indispensable to him and the company (just like Titan has said before.) Take machining to the next level.
That spot drilling helped a lot.
But what we really want to know is, how do they drill the tiny coolant holes through the drill? 🤯
Electroerrosion.
The holes are put in before they twist the blank in most cases.
@@MarioAPNno
@@oberender64 Can you explain how then, I am also interested.
@@MarioAPN There are different ways to make that. One is that there are 2 little twistet Wires get pressed in the Carbide Powder and while sintering it, they melt. EDM is only used when its already sintert and only for special positioning.
Try a .25 inch hole 12 inches deep. That's 48 x D so 12 x is impressive but not shocking.
Ох они там все и здоровые! Похоже на то, что в команду не берут тех, у кого "банка" в охвате меньше 50 см )
Gun drilling is something to look at.
No matter the bit be a pecker. Oh wait, there’s a true position feature control frame? Never mind. Carry on.
That's what she said
Runout runout runout
First one
I knew you would spot. Now drill with it off center through two steel plates welded like a sandwich.
I have done that
I used an EDM drill though
This drill will do exactly that.
no pilot drill but you still had to spotface the surface? might as well have used a pilot drill
How would that compare to a gun drill..??
Depends on the hole you're making, but for something like this or up to 40xD, these drills drill faster than a gundrill and can be used on a regular CNC machine (don't require a special gundrill machine)
We gun drill 1/2 hole 56XD
Where is cornholio
I know you guys are focused on good habits, but I think you’re being a bit dramatic. I’ve been regularly using a 15xD 3/16” drill without a pilot drill, and I’m spotting with a less-than-optimal tool because that’s what I’ve got. Don’t even have shrink fit holders, just using sealed TG-75 collets. I don’t have the RPM to even run recommended SFM, nor the correct coolant pressure. It’s been running well and for quite some time. I work with what I have; I know there’s better ways, but I can only work with what the boss will buy. I appreciate what you’re doing, but I think you’re over exaggerating. 🤷♂️
I absolutely have to say that a 2-margin, what you’re calling a 4-land(regional dialect difference, something I’m very much noticing), is a MASSIVE game changer.
and out of nowhere there is a 300'000psi tensile lump of hardened cobalt tungsten, and it shatters ruining the whole part... 100% X-ray'd block samples vs reality?
Wow, just shooting through is faster.
I’d like to see 20xD or 25xD in 17-4. Let me tell you, it isn’t fun.
We are doing .020 diameter.353 deep in 17-4 condition H900. Mikron drills kick ass.
@@brandons9138 I’m doing .25 diameter 8-12” deep on the regular as well as .375 12” and it is NOT fun.
@@ThatOneFiesta Water based coolant? Mine is on a Swiss Machine with oil.
@@brandons9138 yea, also In a VMC so the chips don’t want to come out.
@@ThatOneFiesta At least on a VMC you don't have to contend with gravity making the tip of you drill sag. Is it a thru coolant drill?
Play Pantera while drilling….Walk! Duh duh duh
12xD?? This really is nothing special, we drilled 40xD with Titex and Gühring deep hole drills, always with g1...
0:01 pls not my mom
How can you sell some 25yo technology as brand new shit?😂
Miller, Guhring, OSG and well, basically everyone, Kennametal excluded, is doing the same thing since the early 2000's.