The Current State of Fighting Games... Too Aggressive?
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
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⏲TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Intro (Does SonicSol like Fighting Games?)
00:52 - The current state of Fighting Games & Games are aggressive.
05:24 - How the fighting games have changed related to consistency
13:44 - Players used to be unique in older fighting games but now styles & strategies are the same.
18:20 - Modern fighting games are about stopping System Mechanics now.
21:16 - Accessibility to give newer players a chance at the expense of hardcore fighting game players
26:25 - Summary and Conclusion of Fighting Games now.
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#tekken8 #streetfighter #twitch - Hry
What are your thoughts on fighting games becoming easier?
easier? no problem, overly aggressive, lacking defensive mechanics, braindead broken? actually sad and disgusting, like, are devs trying to deliver the call of duty of fighting games or what the hell are they thinking?
There is no balance that ignores legacy players.
I think it sucks. Making games easier and lowering the skill ceiling is trash imo
Agreed
The skill floor has been lowered by the skill ceiling as the same as it ever was. I don't see a problem with that. More people can jump in and have fun without needing to spend dozens if not hundreds of hours before they can "Play the game". But they still need to put hundreds, thousands of hours to reach high and pro level, just like before. My issue is how overly aggressive they are. All the current fighting games are 2-3 combos and you are dead. Neutral and footsies are almost dead thanks to all the skip neutral mechanics they have introduced. I like aggression when it comes to rushdown characters, because that's their archetype, that's their whole gameplay, not when the whole game is made to be a rushdown.
Much more nuanced than bad game good vs new game bad. This: 21:17 "Accessibility through homogenization" was a pretty damn good take
exactly.
You are definitely right about fighting games including Sako, Sako was Godlike with evil ryu in sf4. The way how they are making fighting games is the same situation with the call of duty franchise. I miss how it was harder to play games because when I finally nailed a difficult combo it showed that I've gotten better with my execution.
i think i was the only one that see it that way, moder fighting games are going "COD" rout and i don't like it
Sonic was spitting from the start of the video and I totally agree with his statement too mfs don’t wanna learn they don’t wanna lab they just wanna do flashy combos and looking cool instead of learning from your mistakes and responding accordingly
You are 100% correct cause imo it takes skill to play fighting games that will never stop but devs have basically gave new or average or casual games (come back tools) from drive mechanics to heat mechanics to guilty gear to mk kameos. Basically there is no me vs you straight up no extra game mechanics may the best player win
I don't think these fighting game developers really care about making good competitive fighting games anymore. They just want to make fighting games that look cool and flashy with all social aspects that appeal to casuals. Their main priority is just to sell games and content to as many as possible.
ding ding ding. correct.
If a 'good competitive game' is boring to watch, what's the point, making games to meet 0.1% of competitive players need? even sf5 and sf6 trying so hard to lower the execution requirements and randomize the game , god players like tokido and mena still got consistent results.
And what makes you think back in the 90s they were designed around the idea of competition and esports in a time where that concept didnt even exist as apposed to today where according to every human on the internet who decides to speak about this genre of game will tell you it is the only reason they even exist now and if you arent spending money to "compete" whether that be in ranked matches or whatever, than there is nothing of value for you in a fighting game.
THIS is exactly WHY fighting games are so homoginized and lame now. BECAUSE they are supposed to be so fair and balanced or they are deemed as a joke and written off completely.
A game being boring or interesting is a matter of opinion. A good competitive game is the foundation of a good competitive community which then paves the way for the audience that makes an esports possible. When a fighting game has too many problems these foundations start to break down
@@jamesfosterjr9515 the things labeled as a problem can be subjective, and the apparent solutions are as well, so it will be an infinite cycle of crying until whatever the pinnacle of a fighting game could be is released. Sounds kinda crazy, the game needs to be awesome or nobody will give a fuck about it. If less options are available to you and games are more pre planned than before then they are "figured out" sooner and people will lose interest sooner.
"simple fact is that modern fighting games are designed for people who don't like fighting games".
These are not my words, but how accurately the essence is conveyed!
It amazes me people still cant get the concept you can love a genre but be critical of it or disagree with its direction. Granblue after its current patch and identity crisis seems like in a really sus spot. However its fine since if your game has good rollback and is supported people will be quick to defend its flaws like shown. I quite enjoyed listening to this video, its always interesting to hear the varied and deep look at the genre thats quite old now.
I respectfully disagree literally every post you see on Twitter is some one shitting their respective Fighting game of choice. It gets to a point where you have legitimately question what do people like about the game.
Fighting games like sf6 being accessible are step in the right direction imo because i feel they good balance of being accessible and depth. I still feel like the better still wins honestly so overall what'd the issue?
@@dequanndillard7932 I laughed really hard when you said you go on twitter and its nothing but shitting on fighting games... like no shit? Thats like going to a bar and expecting college level debates on political discourse lmao!
In all seriousness actual criticisms are very important in all game genres, not just fighting games. It allowed for games like Strive, Type Lumina, Dnf Duel, and pretty much every fighting iteration to get better. SF6 is a good example of accesibility done right however theirs still flaws with the game that people deserve to air out. The better only wins because the devs took note of issues the community had and fixed them.
@@degen7278 even without Twitter when's last time you legit heard someone say something good about SF6? Any media platform is some kind of negative criticism.
SF6 has smashers playing the game which is freaking miracle imo. I mean casual smashers too. Not people like leffen.
I just feel like as a whole our community focuses to much on the negative and not the positive. Like these games being accessible is something we really need especially if we want our niche genre of games to grow.
@@dequanndillard7932 I heard nothing but positive things on release and even a long while after; so I dont understand what your take is. Its only natural after the honey moon phase ends that people will be more critical of a game and focus on the negatives. The game has problems along with strengths. SF6 has decent graphics, system mechanics, accessibility options, gameplay, mode variety, good single player content and performance. Those don't cancel out the shitty microtransaction system, faulty input reader, eaten inputs, nor the lack of patches the game suffers from. Also once again Sonic has went out on a limb multiple times for this game while also criticizing it as an example. I disagree that content creators don't do both equally imo.
@@degen7278 not saying this game is perfect but honestly again when you all see is creators complain about the game you genuinely wonder if they like it. It doesn't help when people parrot their favorite content creators either.
Compared to other gaming communities we honestly got it good like say compared to Smash. We got dev support, good online and Capcom invests in the communities. Where Smash legitimately has nothing I mentioned, it's all grass and you don't see them complain how SF6 community does. It's honestly gotten to point where we seem like spoiled children. I mean what other fighting game has had a $2 million prize pool for an sports event. You wouldn't see that in alot of fighting games ( except project L or whatever the new title is called)
All I'm saying is our community has it way better then we make it out to be honestly. We literally just hyper focus on the negative and I find it personally disturbing. Again it's clearly a me problem but food for thought.
Hitconfirming Kage MK into raging demon on reaction made me act up when i hit it
Ok
I do think for kof 15 in particular, it kinda helps that the execution is a bit easier, since the core game is still pretty much the same.
There're not too many new mechanic that suddenly carry the player, simply making combos and setups more consistent. And even then its still not that easy, and because of that (plus the not so good online) people rarely play it.
I like how kof 15 do it i feel, and i can still see individuality in there, albeit not as diverse in playstyle as 98 or 2002 or 13.
With that said I still enjoy current fighting games, but aggresiveness does make them lean more into "outplayed in the moment" rather than "rewarding people who practice more" per say. Which of course high level players wont appreciate too much.
Excuse my brain dump, good video discussion.
very true you do very good insights on how fighting games currently you should put more videos like this.
Thanks, will do!
I personally don't mind the changes to fighting games since on a spectators perspective, the games are more entertaining to watch. I respect and even agree with a few of your points. However i do find the old game good and new game bad discussion to be extremely tiring. With every new game this happens and it always has some type of bias. (i say this as someone whos an 09'er when it comes to FGs) I remember back in Third Strike Online Edition lobbies that fellas were clowning SF4. And this was before Ultra. I just accept these changes and go on. I feel like we're almost in a new golden age of fighting games however we aren't adjusting to it well enough yet.
Great video! I was thinking about this yesterday. They lowered the execution floor and added more mechanics in its place.
Guilty Gear lowered the skill floor AND removed a lot of mechanics.
it was easy to be consistent in older games cause no one except a few players actually knew how to play.
Fighting games are now more about fighting _the game_ instead of _the player._
Companies are afraid of failure because they don't want to take risk or lose profit, which is the antithesis of innovation. So they make very low-hanging fruit decisions and slap on marketing about appealing to new audiences, when it actually doesn't fundamentally help or appeal to new audiences. What SF6 and T8 did are gimmicks that won't stick. It was just for the launch purchases and reviews, a literal cashgrab. T8 already went mask off with the monetization after getting high scores, and SF6 is just a streamlined mobile game with a hub that is littered with 24/7 ads and collabs. Dystopian af.
I dream of a new fighting game coming out that actually changes up how fighting games are played, innovates and truly diversifies movesets, as well as fundamentally improving in appealing to new audiences without resorting to lazy gimmicks. But it's unlikely due to the fear of losing profit, and we're stuck playing very subpar, and many times outright trash fighting games.
They don't care about the quality of the game no more, the objective is try to get as many players as possible to make money. 90% of the players in tekken 8 are just boosted by the terrible rank system. To top it all off when they were talking about "aggression" in Tekken it was basically another word for button mashing. They have killed off so many defensive options in tekken that the game feels like a 2d game from time to time.
In granblue as soon as 66L got nerfed a bunch of people couldn't do much to me without their fisher price offense, not like i am great by any means but most of the people out there freaking crumbled once that patch hit because they had no neutral game, all offense, all i had to do is to be ready for their jumps and be ready for their ultimate kill, except for Narmaya's crescent moon ultimate skill , supposedly you can jab it but i am ferry
Amazing takes! Especially on what GBFV has become. Aggression seems to be what draws a massive playerbase chasing dopamine kicks.
I just hope CoTW, VF6, and 2XKO are worthwhile. Tired of seeing fighting games get shafted.
In my *personal* read that one boys, PERSONAL opinion, Guilty Gear Strive is a fun/engaging fighting game to me because despite homogenized mechanics, there is a ton of unique shit that makes every matchup feels super different and forces me to adapt based on my opponent, not adapt based on my bravery points/drive guage/heat. I agree that this super aggro meta will not be healthy long term. I'm a fucking strive player and all this aggro is burning me out.
Preach brother your spitting facts I've been saying that for years I miss the old days
Lol that Lilly comment took me down XD
I watch tekken twitch and tournaments constantly. I always have it on in the background.
What's really ironic about t8 is ITS NOT FUN TO WATCH. Every time you look up, someone is dealing with someone else's pressure. There's no neutral. The thing that made t7 so huge and intense and impressive as a spectator
And now that combos and damage are easy ans come free, there's no tension when someone's floated. In t7 you can see the execution in the wall-carry, and the wall could be their friend or ruin their day depending skill and approach. Doesn't matter in t8. The new physics just realign u so you're nearly straight again with the screw or splat
AND THE STAGE HAZARDS JUST LAND AT YOUR FEET. you BARELY need to battle for wall advantage. You barely need movement . It feels nearly random who wins. Its not satisfying. I don't feel myself rooting for anywhere anymore
Instant while running was impressive. You'd see every dragonuv in tournament even buffering it with 4 in case f2 came out instead. Now when I see someone duck it up it just frustrates me, and I hate feeling that.
I say this every where. The pros will still be the pros. The veterans will always have the higher win percentage. Unfortunately making the games easier and......user friendly makes the game less enjoyable for experienced players.
I HATE playing sf6, it's like a shitty card game that rewards the person losing. Your 1 hit or combo away from winning with no rush meter left now the person who was about to loose has all their resources available and YOU have to be careful.
Tekken 8 is just as bad. I've never seen a fighting game so mash friendly in my life. St least fighterz mashing was a mechanic by design that you could recognize immediately but in tekken I find it difficult to distinguish who's actually good and who just throwing strings. Sol is absolutely right with what he says here.
Is it really accessibility when they are selling you an illusion that you are a "good player"
hey sonic with this being said as someone who's entered the scene around season 2 of dragon ball and i've been attempting to improve. How should i approach improving as a player to get to the level of older players in this modern era. is it a situation of just having to go back and playing the older games and trying improving there and ditching the more modern fighters?
Do not go play older fighting games. Play to the rules of modern fighting games. They are the most relevant and on top of that, strategies you may learn from older games, may not apply to newer games. The only thing that will ever carry over across all fighting games are your fundamentals which are the following:
Ability to Anti Air, Ability to Recognize Spacing relative to character's strongest tools, Resource Management, Defense Habits (fuzzy guard, fuzzy jump, abare, delay tech), offensive tactics (frame trap, okizeme or wakeup game, stagger/delay strings, tick grabbing). Obviously these may differ depending on the style of fighting game, if it's an air dasher or 3d game, but ultimately focus on these main tools will allow you to improve. You won't be able to carry over things like Valle CC Activation from Alpha 2 because there's no Custom Combo Activation. You can't take advantage of Renda bonus from Vampire Savior because the system isn't in newer games. Some games also don't have a Magic Series or Gatling while others do.
Learn the rules of the game based on the modern era and only focus on core fundamentals.
the nier miming cracked me up lmao
Between 2007-2015 fighting games peaked. The only thing good about today is online and even that's iffy at times.
You got some good points bro. Great video!
Appreciate it!
This was a good discussion. I love it when Sonic is spitting knowledge.
As a defensive player who is all about playing lame, I actually don't mind aggressive mechanics. Only time I mind them is when there is literally no counter play. I use to play competitive MVC2 and use to run team scrub (Cable, Sentinel, Commando) which was an extremely lame team in that game. I felt good shutting down MSP players. But MVC2 does account for a lot of lameness. Granted I think rushdown is slightly better than keep away in that game, but both are very strong.
When I shut down someone overly aggressive in SF6, I actually feel really good because I know how hard it is. I know how good more reactions, spacing, reads, and anticipating needs to be to shut down someone's offense. I personally think as these games evolve defense actually puts you ahead. I think every game goes through a phase where offense seems extremely strong. Then defense starts to catch up. I remember when MVC3 came out, and they had nerfed keep away. There were insane left right mixups. And you could die in 1 combo and use X factor. Today defense has evolved and actually necessary to play the game at a high level.
I think it's important to make offense kind of easy. That's going to get my sales. But good players will figure out defense. During Capcom Cup we didn't see 50 million drive rushes every match. As a matter of fact in a lot of situations it was dangerous and actually lost games. I feel developers think these things out way better than we give them credit. I can't think of any game that just unga Bunga from beginning to end. I think sometimes we need to chill and let games evolve naturally
1 handed Lily players prove you right.
Theres a difference of watching a fighting game match vs actually playing the game, modern FGC devs try to focus on the audiance that simply doesn't play these games within the same sphere, games like strive reduced game play options that were found in other gulity gears and Tekken introducing those "supers" back in 7 that only add spectacle rather than player to player interactions or tools. Fighting games need yo move on from appealing to newer non FGC playes. If those players wanna get better and go competitive let them go competitive
Wont happen, its about maximizing profits and sadly nobody wants to do that thru the merit of the game itself anymore. Its all about the appeal and its superficial as fuck.
I remember when I was 11 years old I got the 10th anniversary collection of SF on the Xbox which had 3s on it. I looked up combos and videos and I'd be able to sit in training mode all day long practicing and failing. I eventually got led to pro footage on CZcams and seeing RX. Eventually learned what charge partitioning was, young me could not do that shit, hell I'm almost 30 now and I've only ever barely been able to do it. People who aren't familiar with FGs or 3s will see it and not really understand, they just see the combo counter go up so it must be good, but they don't appreciate how hard it is to do because they don't know any better. So Capcom dumbs down the games so that everyone can be RX effectively. If you create more RXs, you create more hype moments for spectators, more money comes in.
Protect sonic sol...cause he telling the the truth
I agree
I thought u were gona talk about tkn8 , but wth i watch it all anyway 😊
i mentioned tekken 8 briefly
After your video about skipping nuetral... it makes what you said make sense. It seems that newer fighting games want the explosive parts to happen MORE. But as youve said... its gotta have a drawback. Or else theres no reason NOT to go for it.
Theres safe stuff the opponent can do ALSO. As an attacker. 66L for attacker, drive rush for attacker... it just means the attacker is safe doing stuff and it makes it feel very annoying.
Idk how it is in tekken 8 but from what Mike Hollow is saying yeah...
I think what people would argue from you is the negativity and not really the points. Cause it feels bad to play a game or GAMES you like... someone is shitting on it... and they just see it as complaining.
But honestly putting it together... it makes sense why fighting games feel more annoying nowadays. And i feel like too many people are gonna see it as negativity rather than what it is... criticism.
You may not have an editor but for the months of seeing you i think you can articulate well. I think people just see you too much as being salty. But whatever.
Maybe ill talk about it too in my own time. Just to see where peoples heads are at.
I know your a tradional fighting game player... but if you want a change of pace... soon a platform fighter called Rivals 2 will be released. If thats the first platform fighter you play... it would be awesome.
Just keep doing what you are doing man. Itll get better
Thanks bro. I'm glad you get it.
Idk man I can tell the difference between punk's cammy and du's. Or umisho's sol vs others. Id say luke sf6 is pretty similar play to each other but it comes down to decision making that changes it vastly
Raw sonicsol is 100sol 💯💯💯
Why was SFIV good? People complained about that game.
I'm convinced people only don't like the new one and then want the old one. and it happens every time. I think People prefer 6 more than 5 at least I think for SF.
thats cap
They complained about it at the end when characters like Decapre and Elena came out, but vanilla and Super most people loved.
The general meme is that people hate the newest SF title and want the previous one in the series.
However SFIV is not SFV. SFIV, I think, was the last good Street Fighter game that people really enjoyed. Specifically Super Street Fighter IV. Not AE or AE2012 with additions like Yun or Evil Ryu. When they also added Decapre and Elena around Ultra was when the game started to get some flack. Ultimately however, the reason SFIV was good was the slower paced gameplay coupled with good defensive options (invincible backdash or focus attack). The thing people tend to argue however is that SFIV was an OS fighter because of the infamous crouch tech OS and other option selects on defense. The biggest thing that makes people look back at SFIV however was that the only comeback mechanic that's in the game is Ultra Meter. Outside of that if you were fundamentally sound, there was less variance. There were also multiple ways to play the same character, where as now that's not really a thing anymore. Accessibility through Homogenization are what most games are now.
@@tontimmy45635no the dude is correct. People shit on SF4 and said SF3 was better vice versa.
It happens in Guilty Gear ect. Everyone does that
I'm 44 and played SFIV competitively since day 1. In general there was definitely a lot of people who liked SFIV vanilla. But then people started to hate it a lot. The balance was really bad. Then Super SF IV came out. And I think this was actually the most beloved version of the game. Because it felt like the most balanced in terms of offense and defense. But Capcom felt the game was too defensive and came out with AE and I think that is where the series really got awful. AE was an abomination. AE 2012 tried to fix a lot of it and it was slightly better. But the legacy of the series were non-SF characters like Viper, Seth who literally never had to play neutral at all. And on top of the major issue with vortexes. Ultra was also complained about in its competitive era too. Don't let people rewrite history. I wish some of those old SRK threads were still around. I would pull up those receipts for anyone trying to look back at SFIV like it was praised.
I think SFIV has a honeymoon phase in vanilla but after AE the game was pretty trash competitively. People can't complain about 6 and say it's a bad game competitively then praise 4. IV had way bigger issues competitively than 6 could ever dream of having.
Spitting nothing but facts here
So what i think is that combos themselves have become too accessible AND too damaging. You can't make it easy for people to do a 30 hit combo AND have it take 50%of your health. Combos on older games were limited to 5-7 hits for the really good players. And they only took 15-25% health. And they only lasted a second or 2. Now, not only can scrubs pull off 40-50% damage combos WITH EASE, but now the combos take 15-20 seconds to finish out so you just gotta sit there, doing nothing, waiting for the last hot so you can play again. Offense has gotten too effective. Back in the day, Special moves were the core of scrub gameplay. Now they throw out random normals fishing for a combo. Back in the day, you had to be the best in the world to pull off a 10 hit combo in Street Fighter. Now it's like this is the beginning line. It takes away fun from scrubs! They used to be able to get a win or 2 just by being able to pull off specials. Not anymore.
Never picked up a fighting game in my life and probably for good reason I don't get the over aggression and the ego that are in this genre. Crazy that games like tekken 8 and guilty gear look super cool in terms of like graphics and the character design. But the amount of skill and energy you have to invest and accepting that you're going to lose alot all that going into the games themselves sends me away and back to action rpgs.
Did he even mention KOF? I'm 4 minutes in and he said the only good games are Sf and tekken
T8 is the new street fighter. very sad for tekken fans..
SF6 is the best SF ever made. You not liking it, as you may, doesn't change that fact. I loved SF4 but it was OS heavy because of invincible backdash, BS heavy with vortex all over the place.
SF6 is the best SF ever made and that is a fact. LMAO.
Yeah on a consumer level sure. But not on Moanasaandford4029's arbitrary level.
That's a lie
@@SonicSol I understand you don't like it because you under perform in 6. But the game is way better than 5 and better than 4, and I loved 4 (hated 5 though). Your problem is, you want a skill barrier to beat your opponents with your better execution. Fighting game is not about execution (it used to be a requirement in the past) but about analysis of your opponent and his tendencies to make educated guesses or create traps to punish him. I agree that, at the moment, drive rush can be a problem with some characters, but it can be fixed easily, and I believe it will be. Most Japanese pros and other pros from other regions also say that SF6 is the best SF.
@@moanasandford4029I agree with you on a 50/50 scale. It’s the best SF entry wise. It has the entry gap that’s pretty low for newer players who are down to experience their first FG. Gives them the kits to allow them to have access to combos a lot more easier than ever before. Drive rush implements being able to have the option to get in or extend your pressure and Drive Impact has the ability to allow players to enhance their ability to punish.
Where I disagree is that SF6 is not a good game fundamentally. It does the good job of finally separating most things into your drive meter (EX, DI, DR). But the roster diversity is very lacklustre that nobody really feels “unique” but the characters that do just boil down to JP/AKI and Lili. It’s about fundamentals but it’s about adapting overtime and SF6 feels easier to climb up the skill ladder compared to older games. I totes see where you’re coming from cuz I wholeheartedly agree! There’s just too many glaring flaws that should be worked out and Capcom would chose monetization and BPs over Balance patches and character development
@@moanasandford4029bro, drive rush ruins the purity of the game. You should not be allowed to get in for free with dsmn near every character in the game due to a system mechanic that puts you in automatic 50/50. That's the issue with 6.
Otherwise fantastic game.