Debate: The Future of Israel with Michael L. Brown and Steve Gregg
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- čas přidán 4. 01. 2024
- Dr. Michael Brown and Steve Gregg debated the status of the people and nation of Israel in a largely informal hour-long debate. Brown's host posed what he thought were the best and most important questions to Steve and Dr. Brown in the time allotted. Here are the details:
Resolution: Israel-whether the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or as a body politic-is no longer uniquely chosen by God, and no longer holds a special status in God’s economy.
Participants: Steve Gregg affirms, Dr. Brown denies. Moderated by Chris Date.
Format:
7.5-minute opening affirmative
7.5-minute opening negative
20-minute informal, conversational debate with moderation where necessary
10-minute Q&A
5-minute closing negative
5-minute closing affirmative
Dr. Michael L. Brown ( thelineoffire.org ) became a believer in Jesus 1971 as a sixteen year-old, heroin-shooting, LSD-using Jewish rock drummer.
Since then, he has preached throughout America and around the world, bringing a message of repentance, revival, reformation and cultural revolution.
He holds a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University and has served as a visiting or adjunct professor at Southern Evangelical Seminary, Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (Charlotte), Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Fuller Theological Seminary, Denver Theological Seminary, the King’s Seminary, Regent University School of Divinity, and Global Awakening Theological Seminary and he has contributed numerous articles to scholarly publications, including the Oxford Dictionary of Jewish Religion and the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament.
Dr. Brown is the author of more than 40 books, including Our Hands Are Stained with Blood: The Tragic Story of the “Church” and the Jewish People, which has been translated into more than twelve languages, the highly acclaimed five-volume series, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, commentaries on Jeremiah (part of the revised edition of the Expositor’s Bible Commentary) and Job, and more than 10 books on revival and the Jesus revolution. (See his C.V. for complete list.)
Dr. Brown is a national and international speaker on themes of spiritual renewal and cultural reformation, and he has debated Jewish rabbis, agnostic professors, and gay activists on radio, TV and college campuses. He is widely considered to be the world’s foremost Messianic Jewish apologist.
He and his wife Nancy, who is also a Jewish believer in Jesus, have been married since 1976. They have two daughters and four grandchildren.
The Narrow Path ( thenarrowpath.com ) is the radio and internet ministry of Steve Gregg,
A servant and teacher to the body of Christ. In addition to his syndicated daily radio broadcast, Steve has hundreds of recorded lectures on verse-by-verse teachings of the Scriptures and on a variety of topics. Steve also runs the new Great Commission School, a non-accredited Bible-and-discipleship school, stressing an honest and intelligent approach to the Word of God, along with the development of an authentic relationship with God and increased spiritual maturity. He is the author of several books, including Revelation: Four Views: A Paralllel Commentary, Empire of the Risen SonA Treatise on the Kingdom of God, Two Books in One Volume, and Why Not Full-Preterism? A Partial Preterist Response to a Novel Theological Innovation.
#dispensationalism #debate #michaelbrown #prophecy #stevegregg #israel #replacementtheology #eschatology #supersessionism #biblestudy #covenanttheology #christianity #bible #theology #jews #gentiles #theologydiscussion #god #jesus #jesuschrist #church #future #futurist #endtimes #lastdays #gathering #zionism #zion #zionist #thelineoffire #thenarrowpath #nwo #antichrist #bodyofchrist #newheavennewearth
Steve Gregg recently wrote this 280+ page response to Dr. Brown:
Two Christian Views Concerning Israel and the Jews, A Supersessionist Response to Dr. Michael L. Brown www.matthew713.com/notes/files/Israel_a_response_to_Dr_Michael_Brown-v3.pdf
I look forward to reading this!
I'll be reading for sure
Which was wild that Steve would put in that much effort. At the time Steve did it to help out believers he was acquainted with in India that were interacting with people that had been influenced by Dr. Brown teaching on the subject. Steve had never met or interacted with Dr. Brown in anyway and seemed to have no presumption that Dr Brown would ever interact with him. The document responds to answers that Dr. Browns gave to questions during an interview. It is interesting but becomes repetitive rather quickly. I was excited to see this debate in my feed.
Dr. Brown bases his entire belief on emotion. Because he wrongfully believes that he himself is a Jew, AND HE IS NOT, he has an incorrect presupposition that causes him to misinterpret scripture. Over and over again.
@@TheDisqualifiedPreacher I agree that he certainly misinterprets scripture. Can you explain how he is not a Jew though?
STEVE THANK YOU very much for the clarity and simplicity you share your understanding of the Scriptures.. I have struggled a lot with this Israel issue and you have brought wisdom and understanding through the Spirit BY OPENING MY UNDERSTANDING.. I salute you! I am currently listening to your messages and reading your books. I told my wife how I wish I've listened to your material years ago.. You are really a BLESSING to the BODY!!! NO MORE CONFUSION CONCERNING ISRAEL FOR ME😊
Here's a great short essay on Romans 11, which is often touted as evidence for a future mass conversion of Jews, and agrees with Steve Gregg's views. Paul speaks of a temporary hardening that has come upon Israel (verse 25) until "the fullness of Gentiles comes in." And in this way, Paul says, “all Israel will be saved.”
Many Christians interpret this passage to mean that many, if not all, Jews will come to faith in droves towards the end of history. Dispensationalists believe this will happen after the rapture of the Gentile Church, when God turns His attention back to Israel. Amillennials also anticipate this mass conversion sometime prior to the Second Coming, though the exact timing of the event doesn’t factor into their predictions.
In isolation, certain verses in Romans 11 seem to echo this vision of pan-Judean salvation. However, context is key, and the whole chapter must be taken into account. Particularly close attention should be paid to verse 5: "So too at the present time there is a remnant [of Israel], chosen by grace."
This verse definitively establishes who Paul is talking about: a remnant of faithful Israelites living at the time Paul was writing his epistle to the Romans (circa AD 55). Paul was referring to a fraction of the whole people contemporaneous with himself. He was not talking about all of Jewry in the far distant future.
Further supporting this claim is the fact that the word "Jews" (Ἰουδαίους) appears nowhere in chapter 11. That is because God's chosen people were not the Jews (Judeans), but the nation of Israel. All Jews were Israelites, but only a fraction of Israel was ethnically Jewish. It was only after the Babylonian Exile and subsequent diaspora of the tribes that the remnant of Israel became a Jewish majority. This conflation of ethnic and national identity is the root of much needless confusion.
When Paul says "in this way, all of Israel will be saved," he did not mean that all of ethnic or national Israel would come to faith in Christ someday. In fact, Paul made the very opposite assertion in Romans 9:27: "Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel are as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved.” And vs. 28 says ”For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” These verses explicitly negate the notion of an ethnically exclusive salvation plan, let alone an ethnically comprehensive one. This is not a denial of God’s promises to Israel, as Paul himself stated earlier in his epistle (9:6): “It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” In this way, ”all Israel" cannot possibly mean all of Israel in an ethnic or national sense. It can only mean those remnant members of Israel whom God elected to salvation. The true Israel contains only a fraction of ethnic Israel, and this will not change in the future.
The “partial hardening” of Israel (πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους - “hardening in part”) in no way implies a mass conversion of Jews in the future. Many Christians assume this partial hardening is a universal but temporary condition that will be lifted after the fullness of Gentiles is achieved. But that is not what the passage says. Romans 11 does not say that all of Israel was hardened, nor does it indicate this hardening would expire in time. It only says that the hardening was in part, meaning that some parts of Israel were hardened, while others were not. This hardening language is a familiar refrain from Romans 9:15: “God has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”
Thus we know that this hardening was not a temporary hold, but a sentence of judgment. And this sentence came upon the earth “fully and without delay,” in accordance with verse 27. The Jews that God did not harden believed in Jesus and obeyed His warnings to flee the wrath to come. Those who were hardened did not listen and were utterly destroyed when the Romans razed Jerusalem just a few years later. The vast majority of ethnic Israel perished by the millions during that war. At one point, blood ran so deep through the streets that the flow extinguished fires burning across the city. The very symbol of Israel itself, the Jewish temple, was obliterated. Not one stone was left upon another- just as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13.
This was the end of national Israel forever. Biblical Israel hasn’t existed for 1,950 years, and that didn’t change in 1948. The nation called Israel today is nothing more than militant secularist state masquerading under the stolen name of an extinct civilization. Modern Israel and its members around the world are antichrist according to 1 John 2:22. Christian Zionism is a symptom of theological indigence and a disgrace to the legacy of the real Israel.
So who is the real Israel today? The answer is simple. Galatians 3:29 states: “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, and heirs according to the promise.” Ethnic Israelite or not, as long as you are redeemed of Christ, then you are Israel. Period. Israel is the one people of God, the new creation in Christ, the redeemed of the Lamb, the elect. Israel is the Church, and always has been.
In conclusion:
The prophecies concerning Israel in Romans 11 were fulfilled in the first century. The text of Romans 11 does not predict a mass conversion of Jews and never did. God does not have the Jews in a soteriological holding pattern. They can receive the Gospel right now. Christians must stop holding onto and be for a people whose defining trait is the rejection of Jesus Christ. God gave only one command as concerns them: Make war with their wickedness - preach the gospel them.
Excellent comment! Thank you.@@ByGraceThruFaith8453
@@ByGraceThruFaith8453 Bravo!
We as the body of Christ need to speak this truth.
We are ISRAEL of GOD [all past and present and future believers].
Jesus is the Israel of God
Jesus Christ the Messiah of the Israel of God is the tree of life.
We the body, past and present and future believers are in that tree that is Israel, who is Christ, who is God and King and friend and Savior!
John 3: 3-16
So when Paul says that 'blindness in part has happened to Israel', he is talking about the Israel of God not fleshly earthly Israel of the past/future who did not believe but the Israel of believers in Christ.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 verse 12 "For now we see through a glass darkly/ enigma, then face to face. Now I know in part but then, even as I am known." Paul here is talking about the last day, the day of resurrection and judgment of all. Because everyone's gifts and calling are until the last day.
What remains in the NH & NE; Faith, hope and love.
@@RisenShine-zy7dn Heart❤❤❤ Amen!
@@ByGraceThruFaith8453 Is the body of Christ and church two different groups or one and if one, how does Christ marry His own body. I'm not trying to be antagonistic but am still working through all this confusion with everyone thinking they are 100% correct. I just discovered Steve and after watching a few of his video, he seems to answer a lot of my deep-seated questions that no one else managed to answer with biblical correct contextual exegesis.
Steve Gregg gets it
It hit me like a ton of bricks when I realized that Jesus and the whole New Testament says NOTHING about any kind of restored nation of Israel outside of Christ. It's not in there, anywhere. Ding ding.
...and that is because all the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament is fulfilled in Jesus Christ ( Acts 13:32 )
In essence Dr. Micheal Brown's argument or dispensationalism is not to far off from theological ideas espoused by the Pharisees.
@@rudynegrete5658 True; and the funny thing is, I just recently watched a documentary with Mr. Brown in it, which is against OSAS. Ironically, Mr. Brown's stance - whether he realizes it or not - is that those who are of the bondwoman, born after the flesh (Gal. 4) are OSAS. So, he should not have been allowed to participate in that documentary for that reason, and also because he is a part of the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) which is against the true teachings of Christ. The NAR are like Pharisees too. They are Dominionists.
You are aware that Israel was still in the land and as a nation during the writing of the New Testament scriptures? LoL!
@@kingjames5527 Just as David was anointed king by God before the death of king Saul; so too Jesus Christ was anointed as King before the first covenant passed away and the temple destroyed in 70 AD.
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
In the beginning of Acts 1 the disciples ask Christ about it. No one is saying outside of Christ. Clearly Israel being restored would be in Christ.
Acts 1:6-7
English Standard Version
The Ascension
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.
Jesus also taught, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me."
Dispensationalism is some kind of drug. :(
"All Israel" is clearly not just referring to the ethnic Israelites, be it nation or people, but God's elect in all forms.
Last Edit! Steve's closing was just beautiful, glorious, Jesus gets all the glory. Whew!
It's not just like a drug!
It is cultish and anti-christ like.
@@RisenShine-zy7dn I recall them more with the 'pretribulation rapture' aka star trek theology. But the Israel / 'Jews are God's chosen' people was on a back burner. At first I viewed that as deviations, but with time I found out it isn't just an issue of 'variety in opinion'. There are dead wrong on issues. And what is more staggering, it starts with a false gospel. And when people realize they deal with false derivatives there will be endless debates about those. But nobody asking whether they had the right gospel to begin with.
But one only gets smarter afterwards it seems.
I'm sorry but Amillennialism is the worst of all false teachings to enter the church, not dispensationalism. I was saved by accepting Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. No animals were sacrificed for my sins, only Jesus who laid down His life on the cross, and by His precious blood my sins have been attoned for and I am saved.
The nation of Israel is back into the land God had promised them. Amos 9:14-15 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the Lord your God.
God has brought them back into the land and here they will stay. Not a promise to the church no matter how you try to spin it. Steve Gregg is a false teacher, but a very good speaker and debater.
@@lindsay-ontario It is problematic, rather manageable. Issue being that the amil faction doesn't really claim to take scripture too serious. Everything becomes 'symbolic' then. Dispensationalism/ Pretrib rapture Premill positions are however pretending to be sort of fundamentalist. When they are actually not and a more tricky deception.
@@lindsay-ontario You confirmed my statement. :p Regardless, what a blessing you are in Christ's church and God's people will also be blessed in Christ's church if they accept and trust in Messiah.
"Not all Israel are Israel" is pretty clear. (Romans 9:6-8)
Yes for you and so many of us who believe the new covernant is superior to the old (2 Corinthians 3 vs 6 to 14) men like Michael Brown and the rest of the so called Christian Zionist are calling Jesus Christ and his apostles liars even if they have sincere love for Christ.
Matthew 7:21-27 KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Do you think Israel is just the obedient remnant?
@@marclaclear6628 Israel is also gentile inclusion, jew and Gentile believers brought together by the Cross of Christ.
@@rudynegrete5658 So when the bible talks about Israel doing evil, what do you think that means?
What would be the point of making Israel envious be? (Rom 11:11) If Israel is the faithful remnant and the Church then there should be zero cases where Israel has done anything wrong. But it is all over the place in the bible.
How do you explain that?
Amen. Steve Greg is spot on.
Once the eyes of my heart were opened, I can no longer unsee. If you have not the Son, neither do you have the Father. There is no grey area in the new covenant. You are either in Christ or you are not. Grateful to God for using Steve Gregg to rightly divide the Word and laboring to increase understanding. I find it dangerously close to blasphemy to suggest that God's hands are tied by the acceptance or rejection of Him by ethnic Israel or in fact, any other. Steve is correct. All God's promises have conditions. As long as the conditions are embraced, the covenant is honored. Also the same when rejected. Which mercifully allows for repentance and return. So either way, whether blessings or curses, the results are everlasting. Good or bad. Respectfully, I believe Dr Brown's interpretation and application is in error, and rather biased to include those who reject Christ as holding a default position. I also find his charge that those who disagree with his interpretation are disregarding God and His promises and that "that would mean God cannot be trusted". What reckless verbage!
you are exactly right!
Steve Gregg is the winner without a doubt!
💞😊🏆💞
At 45:35, I think Steve did a really good job showing that Rom 11:28 is referring to the unbelieving Israel and the believing elect jews by pointing out that similar language is used for the distinction in Rom 11:7. Sadly they ran out of time but Dr. Brown responds with a complement and not an instant rebuttal so he might not have had an argument for such an observation. Rom 11:28, is really the linchpin of the belief that the jews will one day be all restored to God.
1. The New Covenant brings gentiles to the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Paul reminds believers not to become conceited and think that Jews are grafted to them. Israel is the original. Christianity as a whole has become its own separate religion but this is contrary to truth: the WAY as recorded in the book of Acts is part of Sinai/Mosaic Judaism but not necessarily part of Rabbinic Judaism. Jesus/Yeshua came the first time to point out where Judaism had strayed by making it's own traditions. In Babylonian exile they had made their own laws parallel to the laws God had given because there was no Temple.
Believers are brought to that Covenant by the Spirit of Yeshua who is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Gregg is correct to assert that the New Covenant brings believing gentiles into Covenant. (I think Brown agrees with that too). What Gregg seems to miss is that "the church" is not it's own separate body; it continues the Covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Twelve Tribes and 12 apostles, all "Jewish." Gates and foundation stones....
2. All of the prophecies and promises to Israel have not yet been fulfilled. Dr. Brown is correct about that. The believing remnant joins into this plan. The twelve tribes each have 12,000 representatives.
3. Physical Israel has a physical calling to live God's law before the nations. This includes the laws that elucidate that some of Israel is "cut off" by breaking certain commands. Yeshua also revealed to John that some who claim to be Jews are not part of physical Israel or believing Israel.
Many prophecies indicate that the whole house of Israel will be resurrected and return.
Our beliefs must incorporate the whole counsel of God, including every portion of scripture.
@danasalomon3721
1. I would hate to speak for Steve but I have listened to a great deal of his lectures and he does seem to believe that the church is not a new entity but the continuation of God’s chosen people. Which started out as a movement of the only Jewish remnant and then began to include gentile believers as mentioned in Acts 10 with the inclusion of Cornelius. Steve doesn't make the distinction of Jewish believers and gentile believers, which he alluded to when he mentioned Eph 2:11-22 and Paul's argument that both jews and gentiles are being built together into one body.
2. What specifically promises to Israel do you not see being fulfilled? Dr. Brown mentioned that not all promises were fulfilled during the debate but didn't give specific verses for me to look up. I know that Steve has taught through the bible many times and in his recorded lectures he makes an effort to point out verses that may seem unfulfilled but seem to be considered fulfilled by New testament writers. Is there a list of promises/verses that you could point me towards?
3. I would mention that Rabbinic Judaism didn't exist at the time Jesus came back, it was developed in response to the temple being destroyed and the jews being removed from the land by the Romans after the Bar Kokhba revolt in 132 AD. It would seem to me that the Old Testament covenant that God had with the nation of Israel would have ended because the Israelites would have not been able maintain their requirements of the covenant that God made with them. Currently they are no longer living God’s law, they have replaced that with rabbinic law. They are no longer a symbol to the nations for God, especially now that they have rejected God’s son.
I assure you that both men are incorporating the whole counsel of God. They seem to disagree if the nation of Israel is still entitled to the promises(Dr Browns view) or if the promises have always only been for the faithful Israelites (Steve view).
@@danasalomon3721 *_"Physical Israel has a physical calling to live God's law before the nations."_*
Not at all. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, so the 'rules' are the same for all: faith in Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.
@@lawrence1318
We do not lose our physical ethnicities when we are spiritually born. Our loyalty is first, to God and His kingdom. His policies heal the world, they are not nefarious.
I think it's important to define what "Jew" even means anymore. It should not be simply granted that anyone today claiming to be Israel or "Jewish" could even prove it. Ethnic Jews of the first century have most certainly been intermixed with the world.
Israeli/ Jewish identity was never just about ethnicity, so I disagree. I don’t think it’s important at all and I don’t think modern Jews are people whose ancestors have all lied about being Jewish. Jews can be traced for the last 2000 years in many parts of Europe and the world. The true Israel (as in Gods Kingdom) is the church. It doesn’t matter how Jews call their country (a much more accurate name would be Judah), it’s not the biblical ancient Israel (which was Gods kingdom).
It doesn’t matter whether one is a true Jew or not. Everyone is justified in the sight of God through faith in Jesus Christ alone, whether Jew or Gentile.
Even IF they Could Prove it (?), Paul makes it a Clear Distinction between the descendants of Israel who are Not of God, vs those who are: because they Repent, Believe in Jesus and Follow Him till Death. Rom. 9:6-9; 14:7-9; Gal. 3:16; 27-29. The Only thing I disagree with that Steve here said is the name of God. He says Yahweh, I think it is Jehovah or Yehovah.
the original post concerned "ethnic" jew, of which there certainly is loads of evidence to argue against the majority of folks legitimacy of being an ethnic jew. the zionist must then ponder what percentage of abraham's DNA he must have in his veins to be an ethnic jew, which feeds into determinism, which is an atheist doctrine that we are just moist robots with no free will and just a cranium with atoms that do what they do.
@@earthage3020
1. The New Covenant brings gentiles to the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Paul reminds believers not to become conceited and think that Jews are grafted to them. Israel is the original. Christianity as a whole has become its own separate religion but this is contrary to truth: the WAY as recorded in the book of Acts is part of Sinai/Mosaic Judaism but not necessarily part of Rabbinic Judaism. Jesus/Yeshua came the first time to point out where Judaism had strayed by making it's own traditions. In Babylonian exile they had made their own laws parallel to the laws God had given because there was no Temple.
Believers are brought to that Covenant by the Spirit of Yeshua who is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Gregg is correct to assert that the New Covenant brings believing gentiles into Covenant. (I think Brown agrees with that too). What Gregg seems to miss is that "the church" is not it's own separate body; it continues the Covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Twelve Tribes and 12 apostles, all "Jewish." Gates and foundation stones....
2. All of the prophecies and promises to Israel have not yet been fulfilled. Dr. Brown is correct about that. The believing remnant joins into this plan. The twelve tribes each have 12,000 representatives.
3. Physical Israel has a physical calling to live God's law before the nations. This includes the laws that elucidate that some of Israel is "cut off" by breaking certain commands. Yeshua also revealed to John that some who claim to be Jews are not part of physical Israel or believing Israel.
Many prophecies indicate that the whole house of Israel will be resurrected and return.
Our beliefs must incorporate the whole counsel of God, including every portion of scripture.
I think everything here can be summed up in one scripture Galatians 3:29 - 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God's promise to Abraham belongs to you.
Notice that Paul specifically used the term "True Children of Abraham." There is a physical Israel and a spiritual one and the words Jesus' spoke were spirit and life.
Steve does a good job at rebutting Dr. Brown’s points. My question to Dr. Brown would be: What happen to Israel? They were divided after Solomon and ten tribes had their own kings and nation, while the other two combined and made what is known commonly now as Jews. Although these were two separate nations they both served the same God, however one nation was in constant rebellion and was eventually carried away into captivity and never returned. This isn’t a small issue but a large obstacle that one must hurdle in order to claim that God’s promises where only to the remaining Hebrews known as Jews, which were of themselves a remnant of the whole nation of Hebrews. And what’s was John the Baptist’s warning to not put much stock into being descendant of Abraham, because God is able to turn rocks into descendants of him.
There are some excellent debates between Gary DeMar and Dr. Brown on CZcams where a ton of my questions have been biblically answered by Gary DeMar. His entire ministry in eschatology has proven tremendously helpful to countless Christians in dismantling the dispensational & historic premillennial systems. EDIT: Also Pastor Tommy McMurtry (Spirit of Prophecy CZcams channel) and Pastor Chuck Baldwin (Liberty Fellowship in Montana CZcams channel) have been tremendously helpful especially in regard to Israel.
Yes. Glad you included Chuck Baldwin.@@YeshuaMyYeshuaSavior
@@YeshuaMyYeshuaSavior Yes. Have you listened to the podcast Gray did with Kim Burgess called Covenant hermeneutics and Biblical eschatology?
@@JohnK557 Haven't yet. Isn't Burgess an amillennialist? I'm postmill personally. But I love my amill brothers.
@@YeshuaMyYeshuaSavior I believe so. Yeah, I enjoy hearing different perspectives and learning how different positions are understanding scripture. I lean towards ahmill but I think the postmill view makes some good points.
Spot on Steve. Israel is a tree. It has it's roots in the patriarchs. It has branches and shoots that extend to the ends of the earth. There is no geographic region beyond it's reach. There are practicing, ethnic Jews who still reject our Lord, and are therefore not Israel. And there are Gentiles in Timbuktu who have never met a Jew who ARE Israel.
I would even argue that the root is the root of Jesse which is Jesus himself. He is the true vine.
Another great video. Thank you for your hard work.
Atheism shows us the absurdity of life without God, and if lived out, will only lead to despair. "It's Christ or chaos" a pastor said.
I think its clear from scripture that the olive tree is Isreal, that those who have been grafted in (gentiles) are Jews inwardly, the latter also becoming partakers of the promise made long ago to Abraham: the just shall live by faith.
When the temple was destroyed in AD 70 that was the end of the Jewish age and now the Church age has begun this is the great commission make disciples of all the world 🌎
Where do you get this idea from?
Amen Steve Gregg
One Bride One Body
One body but no bride.
@@dfkuz What do you mean no bride?
@JesusismySavior…Judah (God had divorced his other wife, Israel, in Hosea) was to have been the bride of Christ but she said no to his offer of marriage. If she had agreed to the marriage, you and I would not even be here because that marriage would have changed the course of human history and the genetics that formed you and me would not have occurred. We are the fortunate ones in this story! Why are so many believers obsessed with Israel/Jews when it is we that are God’s people and it’s we, made of twain with his saints from time past to form the one new man of Ephesians 2:15, that Jesus plans to spend eternity with!
@@dfkuz I honestly think a big part of the appeal is simply that it’s more exciting-especially in terms of the end times. So silly
@@benjames1497 It's like kids playing dress up and fighting over which clothes they want to try on.
Stop interrupting and let Gregg speak
Amen Steve! Thank you for articulately presenting uour position.
Thank u Mr Gregg for telling the TRUTH
2 Corinthians 1:18-22
“As surely as God is faithful, our word to you has not been Yes and No. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, whom we proclaimed among you, Silvanus and Timothy and I, was not Yes and No, but in him it is always Yes. For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.”
I named my three kids, two dogs, and catfish Israel because 'all Israel will be saved'.
😂😂😂😂
as I listen, I would offer the point "ALLL ISRAEL shall be saved" are ALL those IN Christ, in whom there is neither Jew nor gentile".
That point of oneness and identity in Christ is repeated in Eph. 2 and Galatians. ALL that are "justified by faith" in Jesus Christ are grafted in to "ALL Israel, the "Israel of God". Gal. 6:16
The "Israel of God" Paul mentions in Galatians is not Christ rejecting Jews then or now..
God being the owner of the land of Israel evicted the Jewish nation and Jesus said the "kingdom given to another nation bringing forth fruits.." Mat. 21:43
2nd. How do we-they-anyone know for sure who is a racial Jew when Jewish DNA studies from Israel show only a tiny fraction of the population is Jewish. When they returned from Babylon, under Ezra and Nehemiah, they had to PROVE their genealogy.
In Acts 15, the council in Jerusalem put "NO FIFFERENCE" between them also.
1Peter 2:9 is written to Christians, not the Israelite Judeans who rejected Christ. To make 1Peter 2:9 narrowed to a Jewish Christian application is folly. Look: To the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
and verse 10 NAILS it:
->>> In times past ye were not a people, but are now the people of God
Yes yes🎉
Also the scripture where Paul speaks of the promises made, not to the circumcision in the flesh, but to the faithful: Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham was called, not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
For dispensationalists, a reconstituted national Israel has tragically replaced Christ as the sacred centrepiece of biblical prophecy. ✔️
Yes, talk about “Replacement Theology”, Dispensationalism replaces the faithful Church with non-faithful National Israel.
@@1754Me Yes. It replaces the unfaithful wife with the faithful bride.
Edit for clarity. A reconstituted physical Israel is the replacement of the faithful bride and body of Jesus Christ, who is the head of the true body, who is the true Israel of God.
No.
THANK YOU!!!!
Aaaa another sensitive prideful gentile.
to dr brown....he says " if God doesnt keep his promises to israel he will not keep his promises to the church"....so if I as a christian go live in adulatry and I stop believing Jesus is the messiah then will God KEEP HIS PROMISES to me to save me??? NO, for in that case Ive rejected Jesus and his will for my life, in this case God WILL Go back on his promises becouse through my actions I have BROKEN My covenant with God. so NO unbelieving or disobedient jew has any promises from god and they have no covenant with God. there is NO SUCH THING as an "unconditional covenant" with God.. NEXT, dr brown says " God has preserved the Jewish people to today"....WRONG, NO "jew" today can prove thier DNA is the same as Jews from 2500 years ago. thats why israel rejects DNA tests. peoplewho call themselves jews today are jews through religion not DNA.
We that have trusted Jesus Christ don’t have a covenant relationship with God today; we have a gift offered/gift received relationship with the Father: Ephesians 2:8&9 KJV. A vital component of God’s gift (the moment we accept it through faith in his Son) is the reception of the Holy Spirit who then seals us unto the day of our redemption out of Satan’s world, Ephesians 4:30 KJV. We have eternal security via the unbreakable seal of the Spirit no matter what we do or don’t do; believe or don’t believe after we’re sealed. Praise God!
@@dfkuz
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary?
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8, 3:16? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the CZcams videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
YES it is a covenant, its called the NEW covenant. the old covenant has been abolished. we have this new covenant as long as we have faith in christ to save us through his blood. if we reject christ or live in open rebellion to him we will break the covenant. READ romans 11's warnings to Jewish AND Gentile christians. paul warns gentile christians that IF they stop having faith like the Jews did THEY TOO would be cut off". we stand by FAITH. I believe in salvation through faith alone, I do NOT believe its "unconditional". we choose to NOT have faith and we lose our salvation. @@dfkuz
@@SpotterVideoThank you for explaining your view! The whole idea of a covenant is that both parties must agree to it. I realize that God put Abraham to sleep and made the covenant by himself, but that doesn’t mean that idea carries over into the new covenant which was actually a marriage proposal to Judah, and because the Jews as a nation, except for a scant few, did not accept that proposal to enter into a marriage covenant with their Messiah, the new covenant was never ratified. Paul claimed to be a minister of the new covenant as he and the other apostles continued to offer it right up to Acts 28:28-31 when the offer was rebuffed by the leading rabbis walking away. They may have had another little season immediately following that but the result was their casting away by God in what amounted to a permanent divorce. God owes them nothing and after allowing their only point of contact with them, the temple, to be completely destroyed and supernaturally kept from ever being rebuilt and animal sacrifices to never resume, plus the dwindling of Hebrew DNA, it looks to me that there is no evidence of a covenant at all. No unified entity remained or remains with which God can even make a covenant!
The fact that pagan Gentiles like the Scythians in Ephesus were suddenly allowed to be saved by trusting Israel’s Messiah (after NEVER being allowed salvation at all unless they were connected with Israel or the Jews in some real way like the Greeks were or Gentile proselytes to Judaism) is a complete turnabout. So with no cohesive entity with which to establish a covenant, salvation became available on an individual basis; we’re either “in Christ” or not. Colossians 3:11 KJV: “Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.”
I’m not sure why so many believers feel the need to dress themselves up in God’s ex-wives’ filthy rags of righteousness and then try to attract his attention, when he has given us all of his riches already if we are in his Son! We are his fellow heirs (not his bride!), Ephesians 3:6 KJV!
Israel “fought the Law, and the Law won”! They’re the ones that wanted, no, demanded the Law! Remember how eagerly they accepted it at Sinai but how angrily God gave it to them? There’s hidden truth there! God is in a way starting over again with humanity as a whole with no laws at all - but a free gift instead, Eph 2:8&9 KJV- just like when he rescued the Hebrews from Pharaoh! But too many of us still take after them and salivate at the chance to go about showing our OWN righteousness instead of submitting to the righteousness of God that makes possible by the sacrifice of his Son that we might have the righteousness of God “in him,” Jesus Christ! God wants us happy, relaxed and looking forward to the surprises he plans to show us the day Christ who is our LIFE shall appear (Col 3:4 KJV) and receive his inheritance, the kingdom with HIS name on it - not Israel’s and not ours! (Col 1:13 KJV) The difference is between Prophecy (Acts 26:22-23 KJV) and Mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV) and it’s huge!
@@dfkuz
Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-
Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH- (Quoted from Jer. 31:31-34)
Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Steve is correct here, as he often is on a # of Biblical issues. Why? Because he, unlike many Bible teachers, doesn't have a dog in the fight and is willing to follow truth where truth leads; even if that means changing his previous position if he finds it be in conflict with God's word. I can't recommend his teaching ministry enough as he is one of the few that is interested in true education.
Maybe rather than debating....you two meet in person and have extended discussions... several times....then perhaps debate again or separately on your own channels reveal your experience together 🤔
Really enjoyed this discussion. The two of you debating, really brings out your own positions.
God has been completely faithful in the fulfillment in Jesus and His Gospel. Period
Excellent job Steve Gregg! Im glad Mr Brown continues to debate cause its bringing to light the truth and his error. He seems like a great servant of the Lord, but will not let go of his traditions. Can you imagine how hard it would be for him to accept what the bible really teaches. No matter how clear it is....if it is hard for non jews to accept they were wrong, the jew has little hope. lol...there whole identity is at stake, and their political affiliations...but when he does, boy there will be some good to come out of it!!
Brown totally made himself sound a fool referring to Galatians3:16. . . Why would Paul specify Seed, not as in many but as one? To specify it! He totally didn’t get that or purposely did t want to acknowledge it. 🤦🏻♀️
You're going to Hell for calling him a fool. 😂 prideful gentile.
This is great, but I would love to see a series of long-form discussions about this issue, with plenty of time to discuss points one at a time. It could be an entire podcast series.
While i dont adhere to dispensationalism, Romans 11 clears up this question. 25/26…”that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:” This is not “spiritual” Israel.
Wrong
@@robertpannell480so Paul is wrong? Which means Yahweh inspired him to write something that isn’t true. So, this means 2 Timothy 3: 16 is wrong…which means Yahweh’s Word is void of truth.
God’s Word is truth…every man is a liar…Romans 3: 4.
Cutting off branches, in my view, was done intentionally by Yahweh for the purpose of Gentile salvation. Reference v25 “blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” This is supported by v8 ““God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.”
So they were blinded for the Gentiles sake shouldn’t be debatable. Now about the “all Israel will be saved” as written in v26.
It is my belief that this will happen when Israel see’s(along with all humanity) our Lord returning, Rev 1:7. This will mark the fullness of the Gentiles. However, before His glorious return they will directly face the antichrist. We will endure tribulation from him as well(another topic) but Israel will be at ground zero of his wrath because they are Yahweh’s chosen people. The “all Israel” part will be the remnant left after he has made war and overcome them, Rev 13. Many will die, especially of Israel, both what few believe and those of the majority who have rejected their Messiah.
After all of the seals, trumpets and bowls, which Jesus directs, there will come the time of Rev 1:7, the remnant who witness this will then see him and now they will know who He is and accept Him.
There’s a-lot to His return. I tried to shorten, condense it as best as i could.
@@zechariah1398I noticed what you said about Paul being wrong. But was John wrong when he said these things are going to happen shortly, soon and are at hand?
Not once in scripture did those mean anything outside of what we would think they mean.
He came in in judgment, in the clouds, as he did in the OT, and those who actually pierced him saw that judgment.
You make them thousands of years away, but soon, shortly, at hand can’t mean that if we’re being fair.
@@Jus4kiks i was questioning robert. Attempting to show that if Paul was wrong then other scripture would also be in error. Scripture stands alone…its all true and right or false and wrong. I believe its all true and right.
Interesting that most comments seem to view brown as regularly interrupting gregg, which I didn't particularly notice but which is without a doubt the general consensus. It's also the consensus that essentially gregg's points tip the debate into his favor, which seems to be the truth. The time was so limited and there was so many points made, its hard to flesh out a more precise conclusion. Hagge would've been disappointed w/ Steve lol
-It would be great to see a continuance of this debate, especially now given that there are so many lives on line!!
Dr brown also says we should be able to understand the fulness of the old testament or God is a deciever. But how come there was virtually nobody who understood that Jesus was the prophesied christ. Doesn't that destroy his own argument?
I doubt if Brown can ever change his view, even if he knows he is wrong.
I spent 30 years of my life agreeing with Dr. Brown on this issue. Steve Gregg's arguments are so far superior here that they deserve serious consideration.
I disagree
He's not casting out all, only unbelievers
CZcams wont post my comment. Just read Matthew 23:15 and then take a look at what's being done in Gaza.
Yes. If Christian Dispensationalists would ponder the message of Jesus in its entirety not just some select passages about end times and taken out of context they would realze that the actions of a secular ethnostate founded by atheists are sinful and have nothing to do with God's promises. They completely abandon weightier matters if the law in exchange for an end times prophecy that tickles their ears
@@lorimav Attacking Israel's existence because it doesn't fit in your doctrine is the ear tickling that the Bible warns about. What will people like you do when God has the Temple rebuilt?
The moderator did not do his job keeping Brown in line.
Bravo Steve! You presented faithfully what the apostles Paul, Peter and the writer of the book of Hebrews wrote by inspiration.
@21:35 Dr. Brown supposes that God has preserved ethnic Israel to this day. But has God really preserved Israel as a race to reign as a physical nation? Where are the 10 tribes today? Weren't they assimilated into the Gentile nations long ago? Aren't the Jews today also assimilated for 2000 years into what is now a mixed race of people whose Jewishness is only by association with a faith that is reformed Judaism, which took shape since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD? In truth, God did not preserve Israel as a race because that name was always synonymous with a people of covenant. This remains so for Jews and Gentiles as one people in Christ who are part of the new covenant. Peter is explicit that those in Christ are a holy nation and a royal priesthood. He did not make this distinction only for Jewish Christians but for all who are in Christ. Paul writes that ultimately, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." - Eph 4: 4-6. This truth is spiritually discerned. Otherwise, we're bound to be confused to think there are 2 peoples of God with 2 different hopes and purposes.
I'm afraid Dr. Brown's confidence is precariously in his flesh, in his supposed ethnic roots, with carnal aspirations of national Israel possessing a physical land. Hence he cannot accept nor make sense of what Paul is clearly stating in his epistle to the Romans. He cannot accept a God that makes conditions and sticks by it.
Despite the divide, I pray that Christians on both sides can lay this difference in understanding aside to love and serve one another based on the common understanding that the blood of Christ has atoned for their sins.
A covenant can only be made between two distinct entities and we do not have that situation today.
@@dfkuz
A new covenant that was spoken of by the prophet Jeremiah has been made between God and His people with Christ as the mediator, with His shed blood. This covenant was sealed and is valid today and forever more. Here are some of the passages both from OT and NT.
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” - Jer. 31: 31-34
“This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. - Luke 22: 19b-20
"22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. - Heb 12: 22-24
@@sishrac Amen. I would add to this list of Scriptures Hebrews 8:6-13; 10:11-18 as well. Soli Deo Gloria!
@@sishrac I must have missed it! Shoot! Where can I buy tickets?
@@dfkuz Then you wouldn't want to miss the next appointment too! Or else...
"Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you." - Rev. 3: 3
Another huge piece of bogosity is the belief that anyone who calls themselves a Jew today truly is one in God's eyes. Paul tells us in Romans 2 that since the coming of Jesus God had redefined the meaning of Jew. And even if we were sticking with genetics, many, many people from today call themselves Jews when they are not. Paul says only those who honor and are in the rightful King of Judah are true Jews in God's eyes.
Rev 2:9 and 3:9 makes it clear that there are Jews who call themselves Jews, but are not Jews.
I won't listen to debates any longer. I will only hear what Steve has to say. If I so choose I will hear what someone else has to say. Debates are only an opportunity to muddy the water. The Holy Spirit is sent to guide us into all truth, hear Him.
*The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, He does that by us obeying His commandment to "PROVE ALL THINGS'' not by mystically revealing secret truths. 99% of all believers totally ignore that commandment, and THAT'S why Jesus said many will stand at the Gate crying about how they had prophesied and cast out demons in His name only to hear Him say that He knows them not, because they did not do the will of the Father. He clearly told us that we would perish only from a lack of knowledge.*
*Now with that said, I tell you that Amos **8:11** has been perfectly fulfilled right under our noses! That's where God said He would send us a famine for hearing His word in the last days. We all interpreted that prophecy to mean some evil group would take our bibles away from us, but that's not ever going to happen because God gave the AC power to change times and laws temporarily (Daniel 7:25) and he used that power to change history and scripture, along with laws of physics. Long story short, he made thousands of changes to every bible in the world!!! When hearing preachers or reading your bibles now, you're hearing or reading Satan's words mixed in UNAWARE! Unbelievable, but absolutely true and 100% documented! I studied this thousands of hours by watching hundreds of videos our Brothers and Sisters are making when they find proof of what was written in the KJV 10 years ago +/-, which they refer to as "residue"...my name, get it? I studied my KJV since 1961 and memorized many verses out of it word for word, and I can draw a picture of my baby stroller. I made a playlist from this research and the films in it show lots of ''residue'' and point out all the end time prophecies which were actually about this phenomenon but were misinterpreted previously because we had no idea they could happen **_supernaturally!_** What's funny is how many "Christians" scoff at the idea when claiming to believe all the stories in their bibles that were just as incredible. SMH*
If the spirit in you is the Holy One, here's how to prove if this is true so you can help warn our Brothers and Sisters, type in PROOF OF BIBLE CHANGE RESIDUE JUNKIE, and open up your King James. All other versions were destroyed too but Satan didn't have to make NEAR as many changes in them...go figure. And it doesn't matter HOW old a bible is either, the Dead Sea Scrolls were changed to match! So was every concordance, dictionary, encyclopedia and history book on Earth. Amos 8:11 is done, but if you hurry, you can STILL find God's word recorded in these films and others and in PDF's of written lists of documented changes like the one I show at the top of my playlist.*
*I welcome any replies but YT won't notify me if you do it here and they won't post my replies either, so write me at the address on my ABOUT page if you want, it's residue junkie in one word.*
*God bless you all!!!* ❤✝️💪
*P.S. After people have taken all of the required 💉's, they will apply a quantum dot invisible tattoo to their head or hand, but anyone who has had just one has a bluetooth mac # that can be read by any smart phone and when you walk through the deal at an airport they know if you have it. The no buying or selling is happening incrementally and will be complete when cash is abolished and worship can be defined as "to fear, obey and trust in someone or something" which is what they are doing with the Beast System and the Image of the Beast, (NWO and TV!). They also now have triple helix DNA, are no longer human and if they have children they won't be human either! Yes, this absolutely is it, and👉 if you write me at the address on my about 👈page I'll send you 15 **_shocking_** films that will PROVE it to anyone who has the courage to watch them.*
@@residuejunkie4321Amen!
Dr. Micheal Brown got it right! Praise Jesus !
Dr Brown constantly interprets biblical Israel as the same as today's so called Israel. Nope. Wrong idea.
Demonstrate that.
Do folks understand that it is the 'Israel of God' and not of man/humans?
But of God through Christ Jesus! Since the beginning?
By faith and not by blood or works!
Who is worthy?
The lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
One story.
His story!
None of us are worthy
by blood or by works or by knowledge.
But only by faith in the only one who is worthy.
Christ Jesus
Our LORD!!!
"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved (future, passive, indicative from the Greek verb sozo), as it is written, The Delivery will come (future, active, indicative from the Greek verb eko) from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." Romans 11:25-27
PROMISE
Ge 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
FULFILLED
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Good explanation Steve, is in Christ the Messiah that we become saved, no matter Jews or Gentiles. From both, He makes one spiritual nation. That's what I believed and what the Bible says.
I'm not sure that Gregg's interpretation of Romans 11:28 is consistent with Paul's overall flow of thought. Paul's comments about using gentiles to provoke Jewish people to jealousy seems to reinforce the standard translation. I wonder what the best argument for the fulfilment position would be given the standard translation.
All this talk about the Jewish people completely ignores the other 11 tribes which is where true Israel is.
Wow Slam dunk @26:06
Obviously there is scriptural support for both positions, although I favour Steve’s. I don’t go by who sounded like they won. It will take me a long time to go through all the scriptures and their contexts. I’ll get back to you MUCH later.
I'm glad you're going to study Scripture for yourself because you will understand that Steve Gregg is absolutely right GOD made a new covenant we are now all one in Christ Jew & gentile ✝️🙏
@@brendaevans1378I'm Greek but I despise prideful gentiles
notice michael's sleight of hand in saying that his view does not make make God a racist(when it does), asking you to look the other way as he tries to draw you away from his own self contradictory belief
The people of the Village of Emmaus were forcibly removed from their homes during 1967, and then the bulldozers came in and leveled the village. There is a church in Gaza City that is over 800 years old. A few months ago, the Christians of that congregation celebrated Palm Sunday. Some of the members were killed at their church when an Israeli bomb hit beside of their church a few weeks ago. Where will the members of this congregation celebrate the birth of Christ this year? Why are the Christians of Gaza, that had nothing to do with the horrendous attack on Oct. 7th, being ignored by many Christians in the rest of the world?
Why were three unarmed men carrying a white flag shot by the IDF in Gaza? Why were two unarmed women shot by Israeli snipers while going to the toilet at their church in Gaza? Why was Palestinian-American journalist Shireen Abu-Akieh shot by the IDF last year? How many other unarmed people are being shot in Gaza?
During the last few days Michelle Bachman said the people of Gaza should be removed, and Gaza should be turned into a "park". "Canada Park" is now located where the Village of Emmaus once stood.
Watch the CZcams film “The Stones Cry Out”, which reveals the thousands of Christians removed from their homes in Palestine at gunpoint during 1948.
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New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary?
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8, 3:16? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the CZcams videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
Good comment. Thank you.
I could believe either position, however I think Steve had the better more convincing arguments.
Nailed it Steve!❤
Dr. Browns problem is he is conflating the descendants of Abraham with Israel. They are very obviously different things in Romans 11. Paul is explicitly clear, Israel is the body of believers, into which Gentiles have been grafted, and non-believing Jews have been cut off
God's promises have been gloriously fulfilled through the salvation of the Lost House of Israel lost in the field of the world (Matthew 13:44) all over Europe and beyond to become the Christian Church. Not future tense. Has happened starting on the day of Pentecost 33 AD.
REV 2:9, 3:9
Zekeriah 12-14 is not to be ignored
Matthew 1:1.
"thus"
"Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" ?
Dr. Brown's position is the exact reason why Christ was rejected by Israel in the first century.
you are correct.....
Yes absolutely!
Your accusation is ridiculous. Christ answered this objection at the end of the Gospel of Luke where he explained that Christ first had to suffer and then enter Glory.
@@kingjames5527 what do you understand me to be saying here?
Please demonstrate how that is the case.
The New Covenant Butterfly hatched out of the Old Testament cocoon. You MUST be born again. Jesus is the door in.
Michael Brown is trying to talk over Steve Gregg because Michael Brown is so so so wrong you can always tell whos loosing🤷
There error that is made here is in equating Jews with all of Israel. Originally the first Jew was Judah. There were 11 other sons besides Judah. No one was a Jew before Judah.. The word Jew doesn't even appear in the Bible until after the death of Solomon when the House of Israel on the north went to war with the House of Judah on the south. Thus began a long history of the division between The House of Israel on the North and the House of Judah on the south, all of which gradually began to be known as Jews. The House of Israel on the north were never known as Jews, but some Jews were taken captive by Assyria along with the rest of the House of Israel, who came to be thought of as lost. Hosea tells the story of the House of Israel, which were to be given (chapter 1) three judgments with three promises. Judgments: 1) Would lose their nations, which happened in Assyria conquered them in the 700s BC 2) Would be taken away captive (When Assyrians took them captive up around the Caspian Sea, and 3) They were divorced by God and given amnesia as part of their judgment.
But Hosea then gave the House of Israel three promises: 1) They would multiply vastly as they migrated to the north and west, 2) Up there in that case of amnesia and estrangement it would be said to them "sons of the living God" This is the proclamation of the Gospel to them whereby the resurrected now living God could legally remarry them under a new covenant, thus becoming the pot (Jeremiah 18-19) that was remade into a new pot, namely the Christian Church. This is not replacement but rather remarriage. This is the Israel Paul is thinking of in Romans 9-11, not today's Zionist State which is fake Israel. They are mostly European or Ashkenazis who didn't come legitimately from biblical Israelites but from Japeth down through Magog and then the Khazars. We know for certain that the Israel Paul was referring to in Romans 9-11 is that once divorced but now being remarried House of Israel because he quotes Hosea 1 as Peter does in I Peter 2. This remarried Israel through the Gospel New Covenant is the Israel Paul is talking about in Romans 9-11. They became Christian Europe and beyond.
The promises that Michael quotes have been wonderfully fulfilled though the salvation of the scattered tribes of the House of Israel in the Gospel of Jesus. They became the Christian nations of Europe who then took the Gospel to the world in massive ways: The Spanish, The French, The English, The Irish, The Swedish, The Norwegians, The Danish, the Dutch, The Germans. These received the Gospel and took it to the world because they were the divorced "gentile" Israelites being saved through Jesus.
God divorced unfaithful Israel of the flesh.
I agree with all your other posts but would like to give a little clarity of 10 tribes & earthly Israel.
The 10 tribes were scattered throughout the nations in the BC era after the destruction of the 1st temple.
However, the faithful believers spread the gospel throughout all the nations that they've lived in after Christ's resurrection and are not necessarily the 'lost 10 tribes'.
The book of Hosea is a wonderful reflection of this spiritual and earthly reality.
I prefer the Septuagint.
The unfaithful wife = Debelain and give her a second chance. = unfaithful Israel, 1st & 2nd gathering of earthly people & temple. Deuteronomy 28 and Joel describes this as well as Jeremiah & Ezekiel & Isaiah.
Child no.1 a son called, Jezreal = faithful house of Judah
Child no. 2 a daughter, called, unpitied = for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel [fleshly].
Child no. 3 another son, called, not my people. For you are not my people and I am not your God.
This is a reflection between the then ancient, earthly and the true faithful remnant of the Israel of God, who is a part of the body of Christ.
Therefore all 12 tribes of earthly Israel were lost unless one is born again.
The faithful remnant of the earthly 12 tribes are in Revelation 14 = the first harvest and are the remnant of earthly Israel in Romans 11 who believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah in the 1st century before the destruction of Jerusalem [earthly]
in 70 AD.
the 10 tribes were in the days of the Apostles, how did they become the scattered tribes??
@@katlegomoatshe1312 The woman at the well was just 1 person of the scattered 10 tribes.
Hence she was drawing water from the well of Jacob her ancestor. The woman was a Samaritan and an outcast from Judea. John 4: 1-42
The moral of the story is;
it doesn't matter when but WHO you follow; NOW
@@RisenShine-zy7dn I meant read the book of james, written to 12 tribes
@@katlegomoatshe1312 Yes and written to the tribes scattered abroad. Because it was the 1st century.
The tribes were scattered abroad just as the old testament had predicted.
James was affirming that prophecy and reality in the 1st century AD circa 60-62
I had a thought…….if Daniel and revelation speak about the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD…….I was looking at some dates, could it be possible that the 1290 days and 1335 days in Daniel could be the 3 1/2+ a few days when the fortress of Masada was conquered by the Roman general Flavius Silva until 73 AD? It was the last stand of the Jews against the Romans……could the blessing be this day the last bit was conquered? Thoughts?
1. The New Covenant brings gentiles to the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Paul reminds believers not to become conceited and think that Jews are grafted to them. Israel is the original. Christianity as a whole has become its own separate religion but this is contrary to truth: the WAY as recorded in the book of Acts is part of Sinai/Mosaic Judaism but not necessarily part of Rabbinic Judaism. Jesus/Yeshua came the first time to point out where Judaism had strayed by making it's own traditions. In Babylonian exile they had made their own laws parallel to the laws God had given because there was no Temple.
Believers are brought to that Covenant by the Spirit of Yeshua who is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Gregg is correct to assert that the New Covenant brings believing gentiles into Covenant. (I think Brown agrees with that too). What Gregg seems to miss is that "the church" is not it's own separate body; it continues the Covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Twelve Tribes and 12 apostles, all "Jewish." Gates and foundation stones....
2. All of the prophecies and promises to Israel have not yet been fulfilled. Dr. Brown is correct about that. The believing remnant joins into this plan. The twelve tribes each have 12,000 representatives.
3. Physical Israel has a physical calling to live God's law before the nations. This includes the laws that elucidate that some of Israel is "cut off" by breaking certain commands. Yeshua also revealed to John that some who claim to be Jews are not part of physical Israel or believing Israel.
Many prophecies indicate that the whole house of Israel will be resurrected and return.
Our beliefs must incorporate the whole counsel of God, including every portion of scripture.
"if"
THEY ARE NOT BIBLICAL JEWS REV 2:9, 3:9
How can promises be conditional AND irrevocable?
If the conditions are not met then the promise is revoked.
Are you one of the blind? Even the apostle Paul said the promises have their yes and amen in Christ.
@@davidswiger3324 That doesn't answer the question.
Where does it says that Jeremiah 30 was a partial gathering
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Didn't dr. Brown first say it wasn't because of the disbelief of Israel they were scattered? Later he says God scattered them in his Judgment.
Steve really clocks it at the end. We basically have to believe he was unfaithful for the past 2000 years because of land and that it will be predicated on its “fulfillment”. The gospel, NOW, is anyone’s hope. But you just have to love a brother that can hang with such a tough topic and never stepped foot into a seminary. Maybe that’s the reason why.
Joshua 21:43-45
Romans 9:6
"...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"
How does this make sense if Gregg is correct?
To me, this demonstrates that you have to be very careful when interpreting the passages about Israel when you have two different meanings of the same word being used.
Dr. Brown needs to hold to the Bible but realize that some of his views might now be correct, and so I think he needs to throw out some of his views.
He totally skirted around the Galatians 3:16 rebuttal. He shouldn’t have brought it up if he didn’t understand that Paul specified seed, not as of many but as one. 🤦🏻♀️
I think the debate hinges on a few things. Steve views the promises are conditional. Michael seems to believe that they are not conditional. Steve views the promises as fulfilled. Michael see it as they are not. I got they have different views on whether Jeremiah was talking about the future or the past. It maybe good to list a few more.
I've been a student of the scriptures for 50 years. I believe Steve Gregg is right and Michael Brown is incorrect. Two principles that were never brought up that actually destroy Michael Brown's argument are these 1st Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9 Jesus says that genealogy is no longer important, it is unprofitable ,vein and only leads to Jewish Fables. If Jesus says genealogy is no longer important than why is the world trying to say that Israel or Jews are still a special people unto God. Scripture says no. Another principle is first Corinthians 15:46 which says we go from the natural then to the spiritual. First that which is natural than that which is spiritual . this principle permeates all of scripture. Natural temples than spiritual Temple we are born a natural person then reborn a spiritual being in Christ there are many more examples but I will suffice to say this there was a natural Israel now a spiritual Israel. Michael Brown's argument contradicts both of these principles therefore he is wrong.Also EPHESIANS has a very important principle which destroys m. Browns argument. From 2 entities,i.e. Israel,and gentiles: 1new creature in Christ. Could say much more.
Dr. Brown has a habit of accusing those who disagree with him as teaching "Replacement Theology". That charge often comes from Dispensationalists, even though Dr. Brown claims not to be a Dispensationalist. The key claim of modern Dispensational Theology is the claim that God has two different peoples, the Church and Israel. Who is now the King of Israel found in John 1:49? The truth is found below.
Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?
(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)
The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?
1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Paul’s interpretation in Galatians 3:8, 3:16.)
2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?
3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?
4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?
5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?
6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?
7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?
8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)
9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
10. Watch the CZcams video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.
Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.
Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.
John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…
"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25
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Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)
What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?
(See what Joshua said about the Old Covenant land promise in Josh. 21:43.)
Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?
Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?
Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is it fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24?
Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church, if the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20? (See also 2 Thess. 1:7-10) If the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant “obsolete” in Hebrews 8:6-13, why would God go back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period?
Read the recent book "The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism", by Daniel G. Hummel.
Patrick, this is a facile argument. Paul is dealing with gnostic speculations with regards to genealogies in those verses that you were referring to. Dr Michael Brown, nor anyone that I know that holds to a future restoration of Israel is doing anything near what Paul is speaking against there. I’ve held to the restoration of Israel for decades and never have I ever studied genealogies, except for Jesus genealogy. Also, neither Dr Michael Brown, nor myself refute anything with regards to the one new man in Christ Jew and Gentile in Eph 2. That is a straw man argument. Your arguing against dispensationism, which neither myself nor Dr Michael Brown or any historical premillennialist holds to . We reject dual covenant theology and recognize that we are in the kingdom now and there is also a kingdom not yet dynamic. Even Steve would recognize that. So, the future restoration of Israel stands with a plethora of scriptural support. Acts1:6, Romans 11:15-26, Amos 9;11-, Acts 15, Matt 19:28, Zach 14, Jer 31, Jer 33, Jer 23, Matt 23;37-39, Lk21;24 etc etc etc. With inductive bible study and exegeting (not reading into the context with eisegesis and an amillennial presupposition) with a good hermeneutic (not allegorical and hyper spiritualizing like Origen) one can only conclude that there is a future for the nation of Israel in God’s plan! It’s interesting to me that only the erudite, and those who are theologically trained come up with amill supercessionism. The church fathers for the first 300+ years along with any average Bible student would never come up with this doctrine. It wasn’t till origin and Augustine showed up on the scene to bring in a distorted Hellenistic hermeneutic that this came to be. Have a blessed day, my brother.
In addition with regards to the “first natural, then the spiritual”. You’re taking a specific principal within the context of Paul’s discussion in first Corinthians, chapter 15, regarding the resurrection and your applying this across-the-board to the entire Bible. This is not a good way to interpret scripture. For example all good bible students believe we are raised up from the dead spiritually now, yet there is a physical bodily resurrection at Christ’s second coming. First the spiritual (resurrection) then the natural (resurrection) not first the natural than the spiritual!
@@Dennis144000
Romans Chapter 11: In its New Covenant context... There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church in this passage. Plan A is found in verses 23 and 24.
In Romans 1:16 Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews. This time period can be found in Matt. 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Gal. 1:14-18. Many try to claim God never gave the Jews a chance to accept Christ, so there must be some Plan B of salvation before or during the Second Coming of Christ. Romans 1:16 proves they are wrong, since Paul said the Gospel went "first" to the Jews. Many ignore the fact that Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", and as "men of Israel", and as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. The Gentiles were not grafted in until several years later. This passage proves Paul was right about the Gospel being taken "first" to the Jews.
Were all of the Israelites "partially" hardened in Romans 11, or were part hardened and another part were not hardened? The answer is found in the "remnant" of Romans 11:5.
Paul reveals two different groups of Israelites in Romans 9:6-8. There is an Israel of the promise, and an Israel of the flesh. This is part of the context of Romans 11.
Paul speaks about the "remnant" of Israel in Romans 9:27. This is also part of the context of Romans 11.
Paul starts Romans 11 with two different groups of Israelites. In verse one Paul reveals he is still an Israelite, even after his conversion. Then Paul refers to two different groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah. There were the Baal worshippers, and there was the faithful "remnant". In verse five Paul says there is also a faithful "remnant" of Israelites during his time. This must be the Israelites who have accepted Christ, as on the Day of Pentecost.
Paul uses the two olive trees as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelites, and believing Gentiles grafted together into the same tree. The unbelieving Israelites have been broken off but can be grafted back in through faith in Christ in verses 23-24.
Verse 26 is the problem for many modern Christians. What does the verse actually say, and how is it changed by many in the modern Church.
I have heard two of our nations famous preachers say the following.
"And then all Israel will be saved..."
I have heard another say the following.
"And all Israel will be saved..."
What does God's Word, recorded by the Apostle Paul actually say?
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
The English word "so" is translated from the Greek word "houto", which is an adverb of manner, instead of an adverb of timing. Some have changed the word from "so" to "then", in order to change the meaning of the verse.
How will all of the "remnant" of Israel from Romans 9:27 be saved? The answer is found in the verses that precede verse 26 and are found below.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Paul quoted from the OT in referring to the Deliverer coming out of Sion to pay for sin. Did this happen at Calvary, or will Jesus die again for His people in the future?
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Verse 28 can only be understood by looking at how Paul started the passage. He started with two different groups of Israelites and he ends the passage in the same way. There are two different groups of "they" in verse 28. One group of "they" reject Christ and are the enemies of God, and another group of "they" are the election which accept Christ through hearing the Gospel and faith.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Based on Luke 21:24b-28, the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness at the Second Coming of Christ. This agrees with what Paul said in Romans 1:16 about the Gospel going “first” to the Jews.
@@Dennis144000 no actually this is a principal that permeates all of scripture. In Matthew 22 versus 33 - 44 Jesus gives a parable about the nation of Israel. And their s o r d i d history. He says to them that the kingdom of God will be taken from , the nation of Israel, and given to another Nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 1 Peter chapter 2 gives us an explanation of that nation that will be given the kingdom of God .it is Believers in Christ Jesus, the church. This is a spiritual nation which applies to God's promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:3 where he says all families of the Earth shall be blessed. Galatians 3:8 says God was preaching the gospel unto Abraham. And when you say that I'm making a f a c i l e argument it's because people like you try to overcomplicate the issue to bring in deception. God is done with natural Israel the 70 weeks of Daniel are over . they were God's time out for Israel their second chance and the nation failed by rejecting the Messiah. God is done with natural Israel. The nation of Israel in the Middle East is not God's children they are an antichrist terrorist state that stands against all that is righteous and holy. The main characteristic of an idol is it pretends to be good when it is really evil it pretends to be your friend when it is really your enemy it pretends to have your best interest in mind when it really has your destruction in mind. That perfectly describes the Antichrist terrorist state of Israel in the Middle East. I am a student of history, and history proves that what I am saying is true. Christian Zionism is the Trojan Horse that has allowed jews, Judaism, Zionism to enter the United States to Rob us, and to corrupt every major institution in this country while pretending to be our friend. Anyone who does not see this has been deceived. I could quote many other scriptures but I'm not in the mood to write a book. You have in your name Dennis 144,000,. If you think the 144000 are a group of people called Israel that are yet to come ,than you are deceived. the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation are the Old Testament remnant. There has to be an Old Testament Remnant in the Book of Revelation and that's who they are they are called first fruits unto God Jeremiah 2:3 says Israel is my first fruits. First fruits come first not last
In Isaiah 49:3, the Messiah, Himself, is referred to as "Israel, in whom I will show My Glory."
And in John 8:24 Jesus stated that "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (ie. the Messiah and Only One Who can save anyone: Both Jew and Gentile).
Also, in Prov. 8:17 we are told that God Loves those who Love Him: Not those who Hate Him or His Son.
A Distinction must also be made between the True "Israel of God" Vs a Fake Israel that Does Not Honor Him, Serve Him, nor Love Him. Paul talks about this in Rom. 9:6-9, Gal.3:16; 28-29; 6:10, 16. Paul here even says "the household of the faith," -- as opposed to the nation of Israel or those who claim to be Jews. And in Revelation Jesus, Himself, refers to unbelieving Jews as "the synagogue of satan."
This is why we will all someday Bow before Him and Confess Him before Jehovah and Serve Him forever and say, "To Him belongs the Glory ... and why He said, "Glorify Thou Me, with the Glory that I had with Thee Before the World was," and why All authority has been given to Him, and not the Nation: because He is the Head of the Real Israel of God composed of believing Jews and Gentiles.
In Matt. 21:42-44, Jesus tells us that the nation of Israel is no longer the kingdom of God, but will have it TAKEN AWAY from them. Note that Jesus Doesn't say that "the kingdom of God" may be, or should be, or could be taken away from you, but WILL BE taken away from you ... And given to those who Believe in Jesus and who Serve Him. This was first pointed out to me by Pastor Stephen Sizer.
Steve Gregg I have to say that I Think you Won this Debate. I Plan to Listen to More of what You say because this message Needs to be Heard: that it's ALL about Jesus -- Not modern day "Israel" that Chose the Star of Remphan as it's National Symbol --- Rather than a Cross. With that said I could be wrong about many more things, but I do now think God's Name is Yehovah as opposed to Yahweh --- because of what Nehemiah Gordon discovered (over and Over).
Im in agreement 🤝 with what you said Bro! It's all about Jesus! Answer me this though.. is there any benefit to being a Jew?
These kinds of debates, and the more formal formats even more so, are lame. One party usually talks past the other, and tons more gets said than dealt with.
The better format is when the parties have openings and closings, if you like, but have dialogue conversation that is _moderated_ to only one point at a time, without meandering to compound additional points that will never get addressed in time.
That said, Both gentlemen did well. Though, I must say that Steve Gregg comported himself with better etiquette than Michael Brown did. I like Dr. Brown, but he was a bit rude when the dialogue segment began. To his credit, he did attempt to lighten up and harmonize towards the latter portion.
Steve when was Ezekiel 48 fulfilled ? will the Church be divided into 12 tribes and inherrit dirt ? or will we rule those who inherrit the land ?
Ezekiel's visions were fulfilled in Christ. It's as simple as that. The moment you preach anything else next to Christ, be it Israel, the Torah, baptism, gifts of the Spirit, etc, you have taken away the simplicity that is in Christ, and you're in danger of preaching and believing in another Jesus.
No.
Ezekiel was the prophecy if Isreal excepted Jesus, it was a bilateral agreement. They did not 144000 are Isreal that will preach the gospel to the world to.the great multitude.
@@zfontain1975 If we pay close attention to how John is presenting the revelation given to him about the Lion of Judah and the 144,000, we see that he hears (or is told) and then he is shown (he sees) what it is that he was told about.
He is told about one thing and then he is shown that the thing isn't what one would expect to see. For example: He is told about the lion of Judah but he sees a slain lamb instead.
5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain,... - Rev. 5: 5, 6 (ESV)
Likewise, John hears the number of the sealed of every tribe of Israel but what he sees is a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. This means the sealed are coming out of the great tribulation, made up of the people of all nations who are washed in Christ's blood - the remnant from the world.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:...
...12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!...” - Rev. 7
@@zfontain1975 No. Show me anywhere in the scripture that says Ezekiel's prophecies are only valid "if Israel accepted Jesus," or that it was a "bilateral agreement."
Well said Dr Brown, if anyone thinks that God is through with Israel, either don’t know are understand their Bible Matthew 19:28.
An untrue statement that you cannot prove biblically.
@@leawilliams8476 Leonard just proved it Biblically quoting Matthew 19.
The church has not replaced Israel ( the house of Israel and the house of Judah) but has continued as the congregation in the wilderness. Now having to be born again of the spirit and water to be able to enter into the coming kingdom of God. And it is gentiles who have to become part of Israel and not Israelites become part of gentiles.
Genesis 48:18-19 tells us that (the Descendants of) Ephraim --- which were Exiled along with 9 other Tribes --- WILL BECOME a Multitude of Nations.
This means that "Israel" is Composed of More than just the modern nation that has chosen that name to Describe itself, so my Question to Dr. Brown is: Which Nations today are part of Ephraim? And in Jeremiah, Ephraim is referred to as the Firstborn.
Dr. Brown does bring up one good point regarding (what appear to be) Jewish people in Jerusalem will see Jesus and believe in Him at His Return. Zech 12-14.
🤔I think Paul considered "himself" the remnant?
Romans was written 15-20 years before before Israel was destroyed, Its pretty liberal to assume "the remnant" is still in the waiting somewhere?😬
When Paul wrote Romans around 50 AD today's so called Israel did not exist. He was obviously thinking about the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel that he knew was scattered all over Europe. He was the one who brought the Gospel to them and they became Christian Europe and did bring great glory to God.
Steve nailed it. “We have all been made one under the Gospel”. Brown has cherry picked scripture to support his heritage.
Wow, I love both of these guys. They are both great theologians and well learned.
I believe Steve Gregg nailed John 14, better than anyone I've ever heard discuss this. He's great. Though, I do not agree with his Amillenial view. I also believe he's off on his perception of God being done with Israel. It seems he hasn't quite nailed that, but I strongly believe he eventually will.
Michael Brown nailed it here. He's most certainly accurate in his presentation stating God isn't done with Israel. God has never given Israel the borders he promised in his Covenants, and King Solomon came nearest to that promise, but much was still lacking.
I've studied eschatology since I was 11 years old and would have much to add to this and may make a video. I often debated and argued with my professors against Dispensationalism. I'm 58 now and began my studies with a Latin Vulgate at age 11, using my family's Bible. Eschatology was always an attraction and it intrigued me.
Brown won this one, as by stealth by a country mile. Lately, I hoped to hear my two favorite theologians debate Israel, and God answered my prayers and requests. Thank you gentlemen.
Victor
Unfortunately, most theologians are brainwashed and taught to lie.
I think Steve won this discussion. I think the olive tree narrative and Christ unity for all people makes Brown's arguments too weak.
The Israel of God began in the garden of Edan.
Between her seed [who is Christ Jesus] and your seed, who are the goats.
And He shall bruise your head and you will bruise His heel.
One story!
His story!
Here is what Jesus taught about today's Christ-rejecting Jews who have returned to the land: 27 "But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ” Is another destruction like happened in 70 AD yet to come? I think so. Probably in the year 2024
Whenever someone insists that God always keeps his promises, I bring up Matthew 16:28, 10:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
Or better yet tell them that God's promises have been kept in and through the Lord Jesus Christ and His new covenant church - Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13; 9:15; 10:16-18; 12:22-24. Soli Deo Gloria!
@@YeshuaMyYeshuaSavior I’m sorry but I cannot agree with that. The Jews rejected their Messiah and along with him, the new covenant. If they had accepted both their King and his marriage proposal (the new covenant), they would have received the kingdom of the “many mansions” that their suitor had promised them. The massacre of 70 AD would never have happened! I’m guessing that the decapitation of the Apostle Paul would not have happened and that he would have been standing there when the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, kept his promise to return in the glory of his kingdom and scoop up his bride, the Acts church of believers, to keep them safe while he vanquished their enemies, the Romans as promised in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 so that he would bring them back to earth afterward and get the wedding and reception started and make those beautiful mansions magically appear! Did that happen? I don’t think so.
God doesn’t need “Covenant Christians” to do damage control for him. He’s a big God and he made his decisions according to his supreme intelligence and his perfect righteousness. He still has plans to make his and his human family’s dreams come true so keep the faith and hang on; it’s going to be a wild ride! 🤗
"fullness of the gentiles" in not numerical, it is equitative. Meaning full inclusion, in this way all Israel will be saved.
Great debate! Both had good points! GB!