THE SHAPING OF LORGAR! THE INFLUENCE OF KOR PHAERON!
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Hey everyone Rho here! Today we're discussing the beginnings of the Word Bearers Primarch, Lorgar. His early years upon the world of Colchis, and the over-riding influence of Kor Phaeron.
Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we're discussing today are from the Horus Heresy Primarch Series Novel "Lorgar: Bearer of the Word" by author Gav Thorpe. As always I really recommend you read the stories for yourself first without spoilers. As that's the best way to enjoy the lore for yourself!
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I just finished Bearer of the Word a couple days ago. I knew Kor Phaeron was a bastard before it, but I still wasn't prepared for how much worse he actually was.
What is so endlessly fascinating to me, is that Lorgar allowed everything! Every beating, Punishment and pain.
Lorgar could have stopped him with a single word or punch.
Corax ripped a human head right off its shoulders at 1 day old. Lorgar could have done it as well.
Kor Pheron comes to understand, that Lorgar allowed this childhood because it suited him.
And that's the real kicker. If Lorgar allowed it, then he understood it and he was the manipulator not the manipulated. So was lorgar already corrupted at 'birth' or did he learn it while under kor'pharon?
@@adams5613 corrupted is a strong word. Say he was patient, cautious and willing to suffer (admittedly very minor) physical pain to gain long-term advantage.
Lorgar worshipped power. Not for the sake of attaining it but rather in an divine-object-of-worship sense. There's not a lot more to it.
@@uignireddngfiurdsgfiurdse fair take. Lorgar needs proof of Divine power in his object of devotion.
Which is kinda fair... why worship a God, if you have no evidence of its powers... (I am clearly not a believer myself)
Argal Tal was the best thing about the Word Bearers. A deep and soulful being caught up in a horrible situation
The sniper was a good one too. Name starts with a 'N'. He got caught by the ultramarines.
You could see the difference between Lorgar and Guilliman, Lorgar was raised by a cruel adoptive father and Guilliman was raised by a loving adoptive father.
Hell yeah and Wolf Lord Rho video on a slow day at work is unbeatable!!!
I love Lorgar. I started into warhammer with The First Heretic.
I would love for much more of the 17th all around.
A throne is the most devious trap of them all.
One simple action could’ve avoided the whole Horus heresy, and that’s the day the emperor grabbed a Angron off of his home, planet, without allowing him to save his friends, who had staged a rebellion from that day onward Angron never had a chance, and would forever hold his father with contempt as he watched his childhood friends get slaughtered.
Mortarion what are the similar situation except he was more of a baby
I feel that much of the heresy could have been avoided if the emperor had sat his sons down, and actually explained what the warp and ruinous powers were.
exactly if u really think about it the emperor is the true villain he should of informed his son's of everything he knew about the warp and all the malign entities who dwell in it maybe then fulgrim would of known how to identify slaneshi iconography and symbols and never taken the laer blade and become corrupted
I wouldn’t call the emperor a villain per se, as he was trying to save humanity, but he was a bastard whom wasn’t as infallible as he thought he was. He made a few bad decisions that put him in the golden throne, just as much as the decisions of others.
@@andrewbyrne2173 yeah but u understand what I was trying to get at right
@@darthbloodborni think it was stated quite clear that the emperor KNEW, that a number of his primarchs would fall no matter his actions. Only knowing for sure that his warmaster is bound to fall. It's pretty clear that he played favorites and pushed some towards this path. In an attempt to retain those he deemed worthy to stand as loyalist. Generally all the "shit" primarchs fell save for Magnus and Perturabo.
The Emperor couldn't explain Chaos without exposing the Imperial Truth for the lie it was. That's a fact modern non- religious Western players/readers can't understand. Chaos means the Imperial Truth's belief in science is a lie. There is faith, magic, and demons in this universe.
I always thought Lorgar was the most under rated primary. And his fall one of the 3 most tragic. Sorry guys but he's a great Character.
Past a certain point, Lorgar knew the truth about himself, and he could have stopped Kor Pharon(sp?) But the Emperor never said the right thing to Lorgar, never sat him down and had that talk. Lorgar, past a certain point, despite his upbringing, made his choice.
Bring back Lorgar!
Erebus was not only a catalyst but a failsafe. Khor Phaeron was but a linchpin, Lorgar was what he was ment to be from the moment he was snatched from Terra.
Logar definity needed to hear the true nature of Chaos in order to avoid much, then again he could have become incredibly dogmatic (though i doubt anyone would care)
He would have leaned even further into worship of The Emperor, which might not be what Bug E wanted.
Emotional Butcher's Nails. Therapist's Nails.
So, what was Lorgar's original role supposed to be?
Edit: I think Magus and Lorgar should have been told, since they were the most vulnerable to being swayed.
lorgar was the lynch pin of the chaos gods plan
Lorgars intended role can be seen in his Legions character before he was rediscovered.
They were fanatically devoted to atheism and the Imperial Truth.
He, Lorgar would have been the High-religion burner and Arch Intellectual enforcer of the Emperor's ideology.
I believe Lorgar was supposed to be a fanatically loyal bearer of the Imperial Truth. But his upbringing resulted in the warping of his character. Remember that Lorgar was not actually religious, as contradicting as that may be. In the First Heretic, he stated many times that it was not worship that he propagated but loyalty. And that his definition of divinity was immeasurable strength. The problem is that the common folk of the Imperium (and possibly even his own sons) did not see the difference.
it was Doomed to fail he had 2 ppl in his legion manipulating him plus the way he wa raised . he had no chance and if one primarch should have learn all truth 100% that would be Magnus and be teached by the emperor non stop and after fixing the Gene instubility of his Son by adding the emperors gene with his own from 1000 Son they would be Renamed The Gray knights / 1000 knight / 1000 Gray knight or something
Wow ok now this . This is good now that something I would have no problem changing with the lore
In the book fury of magnus, he was told he'd be given a new Legion. That Legion is most likely the Grey knights, especially considering their first supreme grand Master was made from a soul shard of magnus
Dude ur the best! Thanks
My favorite legion to watch get mowed down and primarch slapped around. Love the Bearers of the Burden!
Very excited for the series
I have to hold on comments as rho, you stopped right before the end of the book and, really, the last page is the most important one. Please cover it in the next one.🙏❤
I’m still waiting for them to make him and his legion actually used and written well but since me and two other guys are the only word bearer fans they don’t write them well. Many thanks though wolf lord.
Pre-heresy Lorgar is one of my favorites characters. He is the one who made the Emperor a God. (Well Big E was one despite his autistic negations). Lorgar could have been a bulkward against chaos. He and his legions had absolute faith on the Emperor. He allowed the martians to keep their faith but not one of his most loyal legions?
So I kind of wonder about this. It seems self evident, that the Emperor created the Primarchs to be easily "imprinted" by their surroundings and upbringing, considering how they were all so impacted by the circumstances of their early years.
Has this been confirmed in any novels or lore?
And if so, would no this be a big argument in favour of him not "planning" their scattering across the galaxy, and the plan being always to raise them on Terra?
We can with greater than ever confidence say, that he didn't plan the scattering.
The statements of Malcador in many novels including private thoughts and the 20 Primarch houses deep beneath the Palace are very telling.
And yes, if you build living superweapens, you would want to be highly able to influence them at an early age.
Look into their mother. One of the seige novels has her in it with explanations.
@@adams5613 It is another clear piece of evidence against the theory that Big E scattered them on purpose.
So, I always think of the Emperor as a really smart person manipulating events behind the scenes, but seeing how catastrophically he failed most of his sons really makes me question how smart he really was.
Yes, it was still distantly possible... but not with the Emps that existed. He never even bothered to ask Lorgar what his earlier years were like (or just subtly read his memories), and so completely missed that he'd been brought up by chaos cultists. lol. Bit of a fail, that.
I’m one of the few 40k nerds out there who actually loves Lorgar as a character. Then again, I also like Alpharius / Omegon…
Great take 🎉
As a father to humanity not just the Primarchs he failed. As a Machiavellian enemy of the Ruinous powers of😮 Chaos, he failed. I blame James Workshop for being inconsistent and representing Neoth as an inconcistent of. Fuck Arda this is her fault.
All hail James Workshop! Lol
What other primarch would have followed Kor Phaeron? Each of the primarchs were tested, tempted and had to make their own way. Look at mortarion… Lorgar doesn’t get a pass because his upbringing sucked. He’s a follower, not a leader, and should never have been given a legion. Not sure what the Emperor was thinking, or how He didn’t sense some taint on Lorgar or those with him.
Best comment yet !!! Morty is the same though and at least Angron fought and was willing to die but was denied by Big E
Lorgar lead by allowing Kor Pheron to do all of this.
Pheron even comes to understands this later. Lorgar allowed everything and not because he was broken by abuse, but because remaining in Kor Pherons shadow suited Lorgars intentions.
Lorgar could easily have murdered him on the very first day they meet. He choose not to.
Parallels could be drawn to Konrad Kurze. He didn't want to be a leader. He was, by all signs, a man dedicated to justice and minimizing suffering.
He hated who he and his legion became, but he couldn’t find a way to change.
@AbstractDigitalDNB Honestly, that decision baffles me. Big E was on either the Bucephalus or the other one. Either way, why not send him back to Nuceria with Bolters and some Custodes?
He for sure had enough war materiell to send. And if Angron needed to fight alone, Emps could just manipulate either or both armies psychically to ensure Angrons victory.
Lorgar always makes me sad. He was born to be a priest, with the permanent knowledge that there was MORE out there. The Emperor’s disgusting crusade against religion is perhaps the worst thing about him and what damned him.
He never wanted to be a soldier, all he ever wanted was the truth
Reason for Logar falling for Chaos: EMOTIONAL DAMAGE
The problem with emotional damage from your childhood is that it's often permanent. One way or an other, Lorgar would have had to live with the insecurity Kor Phaeron caused in him
The heresy was inevitable, because the emperor tried to do the most evil thing imaginable… kill faith itself.
Hope and faith are two sides of the same coin. Big E should've understood that considering his obsession with eradicating religion & faith.
13:45 He was a "humanist",like Vulkan. Some would say even more.
I hope we get some tinfoil theories about Lorgar later in the week. Kor Phaeron's parallels to the Emperor and the idea of history 'rhyming' make a really compelling argument that Lorgar may secretly end up siding with the Emperor by the end of the Siege. Kor's rebellion is kind of a microcosm of the Horus Heresy. When push came to shove, Lorgar stepped in to protect his father. He's then given a mission that takes him into the wilderness, only to return much later. It's not too big a leap to see the parallels in Lorgar's isolation in the Eye of Terror after the Siege.
The greatest Evil-lution.
A burnt child loves the fire.
-Oscar Wilde
Finally!!
How do you think Lorgar's character would have changed, had he been raised by the Emperor and Malcador, as Malcador wished?
Does make you wonder how things would have turned out had a different Primarch landed on Colchis.
Hell yeah, the two characters that did nothing wrong.
Lorgar is a great character, he could have been the best primarch for the common man. Even more than Vulcan imo. But nooooo Erefuq and Kor Moron ruined everything.
Why hasn't Kor Pheron ascended to Deamonhood?
Say what you want about Erebus, at least he's an interesting villain. Kor Phaeron is just a dick.
I think you are mixing up Erebus with Kor Pheron
No. Everything he said was indeed Kor Phaeron. Erebus came along later.
@@Alf_Hairy-arse You are right, I was mistaken.
According to some of Majorkills videos Lorgar was actually designed to be a kind of super Atheist. Able to sway even the most devout religious followers to reject their false gods. But Because he fell under Kor Thaeron's cruel influence so early his belief system was twisted and inverted making one of the most religiously fanatical Primarch's.
Lorgar did nothing wrong 😊
Lorgar is punished for worshipping the emperor as a god. 10 thousand years later everyone worships the emperor as a god. LORGAR WAS RIGHT !
Ironic that faith is the main thing holding Chaos at bay and keeping the Imperium together, and E tried to kill it. So much of what humanity can do and has done was driven by mere faith.
Considering that irony is E’s favorite sense of humor, this is downright hilarious.
Or it’s just the human nature of
Forbidden fruit is sweeter
On the power On El Shaddi Elohim Adoni Ahcad schema Israel forever Amen El Roi
On the power On St Gabriel
On the power On St Michael
On the power On virgin Mary All the UFOs And gad witchcraft will be in the middle in volcano forever Amen
Good video. But I think that you grossly mischaracterise Kor Phaeron. He doesn't do everything he does for his own gain, at least not in the early days. Everything he does, he does for the Powers and his religion. He was exiled due to his stance on propagating the faith. He kept Lorgar a secret, as he was sure he was sent to him by the powers. He chastises Lorgar, so to understand the Powers the best. Etc etc. That's the difference between Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Erebus does everything out of selfishness, Kor Phaeron does everything for the powers.
I think this makes me hate lorgar more. Any other primarch would have probably killed Kor Phaeron the first time he hit them. Lorgar just quibbles like a little bitch instead.
This is why I hate Lorgar. It's one thing to go along with it for a bit in the hopes of gaining some understanding. It's entirely different for a primarch to just sit there and take it. Any other primarch would have butchered Kor Phaeron long before Big E found him. Lorgar just let it happen. Setting aside how stupid it was to keep spreading his teachings after the Emperor kept telling him to stop, leading to Monarchia, let's look at what happened afterwards. He went to sulk for a while. Makes sense, the guy you venerate as a god just gave you a massive smackdown. The logical thing to do there would be to revise your ideology. Probably to something along the lines of worshipping the greatness of humanity, similar to what happened in TTS. Instead, he knowingly allows Kor Phaeron and Erebus to manipulate him into worshipping chaos again. And when he enquires about how he was supposed to do that after eradicating the old religion, they tell him that they had been corrupting his teachings with the tenants of the old religion the entire time. The fact that Lorgar, who knows that those two were trying to manipulate him into worshipping chaos again, doesn't execute them on the spot the instant they admitted to corrupting his teachings with chaos worship, is mind boggling. And to make it worse, he just kept going along with it. No other primarch would have let that shit happen. I may not like the fall of some of the others, but Lorgar had no reason to fall other than his own stupidity.
@AlphariusMemegon love the profile name first of all. Second absolutely right on all accounts. What blows my mind is how doesn't the emperor just tell Lorgar "hey that dude you called dad is a fuckhead and I'm not letting you give him any gene manipulation to make him a sort of astartes" like Luther is a completely different thing because he was essentially totally loyal to The Lion when he was found, Kor Phaeron was already working against Lorgar when Big E shows up. He should have seen it and just said no. But I definitely blame lorgar more.
This just makes me more disgusted by Lorgar. He is as much of a whiny punk as Peterturbo. He could fix his situation but just sits there and whines because he's so sad. *massive eyeroll* not only that but he just keeps his abuser around.
Ah yes, I remember how Kor Phaeron fiddled Lorgar's diddles.