Runway Safety: Over the Line
Vložit
- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- Fort Pierce, Florida, November 13, 2011: A Beechcraft B55 Baron taxies onto an active runway without a clearance, coming within 100 feet of a landing aircraft. As you watch the video, think about some of the issues that may have contributed to the pilot’s mistake.
This video is featured in our online course, Runway Safety. Take the course for free at www.aopa.org/l...
I love these FSX reconstructions and the narrators voice is excellent!
Top quality voice-over yes, sounds like he could have done Forensic Files or something like that :D.
It's the actor Morgan Freeman narrating. He flies and has a number of aircraft.
@@aerialexplorer772 No the narrator is Will Smith.
@@Nords555 No it is Morgan Freeman. Here's another aviation video he's done:
czcams.com/video/2gUiy8TUAUU/video.html
@@aerialexplorer772 lulz. You got me. But I hope you're joking about OPs vid narrator;)
That is the most assertive "STOP!" I've ever heard on an ATC recording. I've listened to many of these, including the one where the Air Canada pilot almost landed on a taxiway on top of 4 other aircraft. The controller just causually said "Air Canada go around" like he was ordering breakfast. I was surprised at the lack of urgent tone.
Almost panicked 'STOP' from both air and ground control there, that's when you know you've made a big mistake there...
It's not optimal regardless. Someone yelling at you won't make you understand the command better.
@@Raison_d-etre Perhaps, but the tone will certainly make the command stand out and be perceived as an emergency due to pre-existing conditioning. If it were a complex command I would say that shouting could be detrimental. However in this case it was a simple command of stop, which would be a natural reaction to someone yelling anyways.
@@VictoryAviation Yelling makes people nervous and could negate whatever benefit of confers, but it really depends and I'm not going to make blanket judgements either way.
@@Raison_d-etre I agree. It does make people nervous. If he panic slammed on the brakes then the message was effective. I don’t think shouting would be effective for just about any command except for an emergency stop. Anything else my guess is it would be less effective.
I was doing autorotations with a student in Kinston Ontario. I was cleared to land on the runway when a commuter plane taxied out in front of me. We did an over shoot. The commuter plane pilot said he assumed since I was a helicopter that we would auto onto the parallel taxi way. It was closed with large piles of sand on it. Never assume and make way for people landing. You can't make up your own clearances. It makes ATC very upset.
Glad you lived to tell about it. What a wackadoodle that guy was.
"Ive got a number you need to call..." Never a good thing to hear, especially right at the beginning of the flight. I feel like after an incident like this the pilot should have his departure cancelled and should be instructed to taxi back to parking immediately. The baron pilot seemed to have trouble understanding messages on the radio and simple instructions, not a good start. Now in addition to that he's probably feeling a little shaken up and maybe embarrassed too. Best to park the aircraft, assess what happened, and calm yourself.
You have completely forgotten about get-there-itis.
Likely shouldn't allow takeoff as this would be a major distraction and stressor.
What happens when the pilot calls the number? Is it the FAA? What will result?
@@michaelmccarthy4615 Probably just an incident report. Hence we know he was "just doing his run up" as that's what he reported
@@DavidDavid-jb1cy I hear it's a number to a Jewish mom in Brooklyn who admonishes you for 45 minutes for getting your pilot's license in the first place.
Ahh yes. The old "I was doing my runup at the hold short line and accidentally 'crept' 320 feet" excuse. That's what everyone says.
Anytime i do a runup in a 172 the plane creeps but i always catch it before it becomes a problem
Ryan panahi Yeah. "Creep" is a foot or two. 320 feet is taxiing.
8literbeater I thought no accountability was a trait of millennials. This offending pilot definitely sounded advanced in years.
@@prorobo Clearly you're not around many older adults if you think no accountability is limited to millennials. Just look the goons we have in Washington.
@@zyrrhosha ain’t that the truth
"I'm sorry Smokey. You were over the line; that's a foul."
If you're not sure or confused in any way about the taxi clearance, best to ask for a progressive taxi. I think pilots tend to either forget about this or just don't feel they need the help.
I would personally would write down the taxi instructions and then have my airport diagram out and highlight where I'm going so that I'm confused one bit. I dread calling the number. I'm guessing I may end up once, but hopefully never.
@@chrisgast you could write everything down and highlight it, and still ask for progressive taxi instructions if confused. Better safe than sorry.
As a relatively greenhorn pilot myself with 170 hours I have flown to several airports that were not familiar to me and I simply requested progressive taxi to get back to the FBO because I wasn’t sure exactly where I was supposed to turn off. The ground controller was happy to do it. Such a request is a lifesaver and I see no harm or embarrassment to request progressive taxi.
No! Not the phone call! Please, not the phone call, anything but the phone call.
Yes, it's common for high performance a/c to move forward on a run-up, but 320 feet? The BS flag is officially raised on that one.
I agree. Expensive mistake but it'll make him learn
Agreed. Pilot was an idiot.
Expensive? How so?
If it were common, you'd have tail feathers being eaten up when every there are aircraft in line for TO on the taxiway.
I parse that claim a little differently.
"After the incident, the pilot of Baron 5CG said that he was doing his run-up and hadn't noticed his aircraft creeping past the hold short line - a fairly common mistake in high performance aircraft. The aircraft traveled roughly 320' beyond the hold-short..."
To me at least, the fairly common mistake asserted for HP aircraft is loss of positional awareness during run-up -- not the fairly common mistake travelling 320 feet past the hold-short.
'Common mistake' obviously is subjective nomenclature, so it's hard to assign a threshold condition to evaluate. If you're parsing "more often than not on all taxi operations" you're probably right. If you're parsing it (as I do) as "a recurring theme contributing to runway incursions" I'd side with the ASI.
In no way does this relieve or ameliorate the PIC responsibility to maintain situational and positional awareness at all times, regardless of workload.
"I have a number you need to call when you get to your destination" r.i.p. in peace
Interesting. I landed on the wrong parallel runway once at Archerfield (a municipal airport in Brisbane, Australia). Literally had a two minute talk, I apologized, and that was it.
davisx2002 please elaborate.
it was 20 years ago, but heres the basic mistake I made. I turned my aircraft at the wrong time because I misunderstood the instruction given. Once the controller realized how far out of my assigned transition I was he had to tell several large aircraft to go around. I was new to the Class B environment and was never cleared to land (only to turn final) I turned then made my decent to 100 feet AGL and made what was by then my 3rd request for actual clearance to land. the tower was shitting egg rolls because they thought I was disoriented, but I was following the hand off instructions and repeating back every vector and altitude given. they were going to have me go around but didn't, I was hanging in the breeze and finally got cleared to land after using up 2 thirds of the runway. by then I was forced to go around. whenI told em I was unable to land and needed a new option, the controller was already pissed. I was an easy target so he gave me my choice of runways and once I was cleared the active; the order to "call the tower immediately upon securing my aircraft" was given.
Alexander Brown try it at an international airport class B airspace. then get back to me
davisx2002 ouch. Were you VFR into there at the time? Out of curiosity, why did you choose SLC as your destination over say Skypark or South Valley if, and I'm assuming here, you were in a GA aircraft? It sounds like tower forgot about you once approach handed you over. What did the ass chewing entail?
A phone call is much better than a smoke hole. Good job to the approaching aircraft.
I would also suggest that controllers slow down when giving out taxi instructions, making it much easier for the pilot to write the taxi instructions down. The pilot can also request progressive taxi instructions, especially at an airport like this that is under construction.
Since there was obviously some miscommunication initially, the controller should have/could have started over, slowly, giving the step by step instructions and waiting for the read back from the pilot. If it didn't match, start over at the beginning instead of trying to "fix" the errors..
That was not fast for ATC.
“I’ve got a number for you to call”=you’re in big trouble 😩
What exactly happens when you call the number?
@@alexcentury2166 Who knows.
You never hear from those who have so maybe it is best to not think about it.
@Mrs Libertas ... Your flight skills are poor, go ahead and make your flight and if you land we will talk about it.
@@Penoatle You’re required to give your current address as part of the investigation. Then they snatch you up in the middle of the night. I’ve heard about it from older guys at the airport more than once. Even some good pilots vanished. Don’t make bad mistakes.
How can a pilot misunderstand 8 for A, thats why we use the NATO alphabet :\
My exact thought
I didn't realize my Baron move 100 yards forward, lol.
So this was you?
Nice video. Amazing how simple things can get complicated. Progressive taxi may have bee prudent here also.
I've done many departures and arrivals into KFPR and the layout is a bit confusing to a unfamiliar pilot. Add in taxiway closures and that jacks up the difficulty a few notches. I like to mark closed taxiways/runways from the NOTAMS on the chart, that way I don't have to remember what I read. That probably wouldn't have helped here but it would have been one less unknown and may have helped the Baron pilot be more aware of his surroundings.
Why would that landing traffic elect to make "evasive" actions and then land instead of just going around?
Plenty of landing room left, save gas. Go around would have been safest though.
I have a feeling the pilot didn't have an airport diagram handy
Same
Or a pencil and paper
I’ll bet the dude didn’t even come close to checking the NOTAMs either.
Even if you are given clearance to cross a non-active runway, I think it's asking for trouble. In this case he should have held short.
I too find it unlikely that someone wouldn't notice the a/c moving during runup.
Should the landing aircraft have gone around instead if landing?
+George Forall I was just going to say this. I'm immediately and automatically going around if I see something like this.
+George Forall If he sees it... Go around is usually the better choice.
The vision forward can be obscured to preclude seeing the incursion due to design of the aircraft and its flight attitude.
One of the reasons we use towers and radio communication.
Yes, he should have. But I guess he didn't and he felt he could make the landing especially being so close to ground.
I would have.
@@neillaferty You also have to understand this rendering of things doesn't necessarily depict what actually happened. In other words, the pilot may have thought his safest course of actions was to land
"Moved during the run up..." Yeah, BS.
Why didn't the landing aircraft do a go-around?
The first instructions were to hold short of runway 14.
Then there were further instructions.
The pilot’s statement at the end, though, seemed to verify that he knew that holding short of runway 14 was still in effect.
“Final, go around” would have been much much safer
right, while stupid move by the Baron, let's not pretend go arounds dont' happen literally every day
Wow, the stop call was certainly warranted but, how about a go around call to the landing aircraft.
Love the videos, very well done Air Safety Institute!
With all that initial confusion about taxi instructions and having so many taxiways closed, asking for a progressive taxi from the tower would've helped a lot.
Safety Learning lesson...thanks for sharing
Bottom line is, if ground control says hold short, YOU HOLD SHORT until otherwise instructed!
Is the radio always that poor at airports? They are literally right on top of the transmitter and the signal is garbled. I wonder if things would improve if we switched to digital radios. Analog is always subject to distortion based on signal strength. Digital is perfect, without distortion due to signal quality, right up to the digital cliff.
“High performance aircraft” a BARON?
Barely.
Combined HP over 300.
“I got a phone number for you to call” feels like hearing “go to the principles office”🤣
I’d love to know what is said on those calls!
If I may make some suggestions for all pilots, particularly for CFIs when teaching runups:
STAND ON THE BRAKES -- if your feet or legs get fatigued, stop the runup and rest, then run it back up and continue.
NEVER let go of the throttle -- many students and pilots set runup RPM (1700, 2000, whatever), then let go of the throttle to read the checklist, check the mags, etc. Problem is that it then takes time to find the throttle again if they need to stop.
NEVER point toward anything you don't want to hit or roll onto or into before starting runup -- make an inadvertent "crawl" as benign as possible before starting the runup.
So, what happens if the dude doesn't call the super top secret scary phone number?!
Dude Doesn't Fly Anymore!
A couple guys in suits from your local FSDO come to your front door and collect an explanation... and presumably your airman certificate as well
You should always stop at a runway hold short line.Nowadays airports are equipped with flashing lites at the hold short line.Thats a very critical area.
They put windows in aircraft for a reason. Why is it so hard to look out of them? As I have no clue how you move 300 feet and not notice it. So stop looking down at that pad writing everything down. When you should be looking out the window....
Did we get all the audio? Pilot did not read back the hold short, and ATC did not repeat it when pilot asked for a reread. Then when they changed the taxi directions, ATC never gave the hold short. If we got all the transmissions, this is ALL on ATC!
I hate it when they say they have a number for me to call...I dont like it at all...its like being called to the principals office times 1000
...how many times has that happened to you (your phrasing makes it sound like many times)?
1 time. it just sucked bad
I hope I never do.
@@davisx2002 Do they just bitch you out or are there fines? Do they suspend your licence?
Why didn't the Commander pilot go around instead of continuing a close call landing?
Maybe it was Bob and he already shut off the engines
Lots of runway, easy maneuver around the incursion, and easy landing. BUT I would opt for the go-around, because with multiple incursion points (taxiway crossings) and one already in the active, there is no way to know if it was pilot error or ATC error. Did one pilot break rank, or did ATC clear a bunch of planes to cross...?
Yeah, better to go around. I like to fly and the gas is cheaper than the funeral. A few more minutes in the air is all good.
As soon as he said "Charlie A", he should have been given that phone number and instructed to taxi back to parking. For non pilots, you'd never say the letter A, it would be Alpha. Furthermore, there is no such thing as taxiway direction "CA".
Yeah, I'm not a pilot but that already seemed like a huge red flag to me. The phonetic alphabet is there precisely for this reason.
as I age I notice that the SPEED TALKING of the airport controllers often fails to take into account that since most are younger and a lot of pilots are older, it's like listening to a speed talker at a Starbucks; you need a noise filter to understand them. I can see where this could lead to a lot of confusion, eh??
Yes I totally agree
Nice FSX visuals
These videos are so cool!
what i never understand about ATC , they slur their speech, talk at 200kmh and then get pissed off when you query them. they are really extremly difficult to understand.
Thats weird. Thousands of pilots every day understand and execute atc instructions every day without a problem.
@@morganghetti
possibly.
however do you understand a word of that gibberish? i have trouble understanding most of it. why are there always subtitles when atc is on youtube?
You must try listening to ATC in Europe for example. What you are describing is a USA phenomenon
I know the signage should be enough, but shouldn't ATC tell you to "hold short" 14? Also, clarify exactly which "C" to utilize. There was a C4 and C8 I believe.
When ATC said Charlie, they meant Charlie. Therefore, if you follow along on the chart, when ATC says "taxi via left Charlie, right Charlie 8, hold short of runway 14," the instructions are perfectly clear. The runway amendment has potential to cause confusion, but again ATC says "amend runway assignment, RWY 14 intersection Charlie 8, taxi via Charlie," and it's pretty damn self-explanatory if you follow along on the chart and keep in mind one of the first things they teach you in ground school, which is to ALWAYS hold short until cleared otherwise. If ATC intends for you to enter the runway but not take off, they'll instruct you to "line up and wait," and if they want you going immediately then they'll give you your takeoff clearance along with the instructions "no delay."
ATC does not have to say "hold short". Regs state that unless you are given explicit authorization to cross, you must hold short. Taxi instruction that include a runway crossing _do not permit you to cross that runway_, unless explicitly stated as part of the taxi instruction, or until authorized during the taxi. In this case, the instruction would have to read, "...Charlie 8, cross 14, proceed..." There was no instruction to cross, so the default is always hold short. Anything else is an incursion.
In general, if you don't know you stop and ask.
Same taxi routing for both, yet the controller did say hold short of 14. I forget, wasn’t there a point where you didn’t have to hold short of crossing runways unless advised, as opposed to now when you must be directly cleared to do so?
several taxiways are closed with the result that any aircraft taxiing from .............
"MARK IT ZERO!!"
Interesting
Clear left, clear right.....make sure your parking break is engaged and that it works.
Close call...maybe...but the Comanche pilot saw him from far away and passed him and then landed unfrazzled. I'd call that not close for him. The one that crossed the line, yup, I'm sure he freaked out.
The guy sounded confused from the beginning.
He was in no state to fly an air plane.
Maybe ever.
On the second read back fail I would’ve just asked for progressive taxi at that point
Why not send him C A
I spoke too soon LMAO
"I have a number you need to call when you get to your destination"....oooooooooooooh shit....
I guess that's another license permanently revoked?
The guy gives GA a bad name. Maybe he was getting his cap on his booze bottle. LOL. The other plane should ignited an immediate go around.
If this were to happen on a Air Force base, the pilot that passed the VFR hold line would've been face first on the ground and handcuffed by MPs
Too many GA pilots go through their tasks in an airplanes like they do driving their car ,...glancing like a robot to say 'well ,I looked"..!! doesn't cut it....and over trusting ATC is like trusting your passenger in your car to lookout for you..!!!
federal aviation administration , ..
Progressive taxi...anyone?
BS! I’ve creeped forward with the brake on plenty of times. 320’ is far too long to not notice, this dude was just friggin clueless and shouldn’t be a pilot
When you are that confused about where to go, ask for progressives!!!!
Laziness. If he had looked at final he would have seen them.